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#404481 - 12/03/09 06:55 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Original Sly]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 996
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: Original Sly
That sounds about right to me!

Forgetting all the cold, hard definitions and analytical language you guys have been using, and if we apply this to real world situations, how many agnostic people do we all know personally?

I know a few people who claim to be "agnostic" and every single one is indecisive in this way. They don't claim that it's "unknowable". They're just too fuckin' lazy to spend any significant time looking at the evidence and making a decision.

But the common trait I've found in all of them?

They all use the term "agnostic" to describe themselves because they're scared of the other "A" term: "atheist". They're apprehensive and frightened by the term "atheist". "Oh no, no, I'm not an atheist". wink


Yes, this has been my experience as well!

I think that it’s important that we consider the practical functionality of these ideas; practice, as well as theory.
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#404482 - 12/03/09 07:04 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: John Prophet]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8898
Aside from the fact that as a Satanist I am an I-theist...

I left the atheist/agnostic debate - forever - sometime ago - when I happened upon the perspective of theological noncognitivism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theological_noncognitivism

Once understood, it bypasses the whole galaxy of nuanced semantic piffle-poffle entirely, before it even starts.

I'm a "strong" atheist and quite secure in it.

Life is too damn short to waste debating how to split non-existent hairs on non-existent angels on non-existent pins.


Edited by Daark (12/03/09 07:09 PM)

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#404486 - 12/03/09 07:19 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Quaark]
John Prophet Offline

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Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 996
Loc: My suburban lair
As usual, Reverend Daark, you are correct! Thanks for the link; I had never encountered this concept of “theological noncognitivism” before (though ideas along those lines had certainly occurred to me). You are an expert at cutting through the bullshit.


Edited by John Prophet (12/03/09 07:21 PM)
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#404495 - 12/03/09 09:09 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: John Prophet]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8898
Theological non-cognitivism may be summed up in eight simple words.

"What the hell are you even talking ABOUT?"

coopdevil

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#404499 - 12/03/09 09:49 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Quaark]
rolandstgermain Offline


Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 38
Loc: South Carolina
Reverend, this sounds quite a bit like Ayn Rand's epistemological reason for not believing in God.

Matter-of-fact, that sounds almost empiricist.
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#404500 - 12/03/09 10:10 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: rolandstgermain]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8898
Theological non-cognitivism makes a delimited point in the domain of linguistics, pre-bypassing subsequent domains such as epistemology. The essential point is quite different from anything Rand said. There may be a similarity of conclusion, by different means of arrival, which does not imply a validation of Rands logic.

wink

It also does not presuppose the entire universe of claims made by (the various and sundry branches of) empiricism.

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#404581 - 12/04/09 06:06 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Quaark]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
Thanks for the link Rev. Daark. I'm going to examine that material. An interesting line of reasoning I have not heard before.
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#404793 - 12/07/09 12:03 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
I don't know, theological non-cognitivism seems to makes some claims of its own, i.e. that the notion of God is a nonsensical notion. I don't know about that. I would call it a fairy tale, or a fiction or a myth before I would describe it as something that cannot be described, and hence non-cognitive. Entire university libraries exist describing God.

I am more attuned to what Magister Gilmore said (and I hope I am using his title correctly), that actually believing all of those things about God or the supernatural realm is insanity, that people that really believe it are insane.

Religious people actually try to increase their "faith." They read the Bible, they read religious books, they go to church, they go to bible study, they pray for more faith (and prayer is a form of self-hypnosis). So they actually feed their insanity, and their collective insanity feeds on itself. Nietzsche described belief in God as "thinking oneself out of reality." That is precisely what these folks do.

Of all the things that Peter Gilmore said, and I had been reading his thoughts on the subject before joining this site, when he said these folks are insane, at first I didn't believe that. but the more I thought about, and reflected upon it, I really came to embrace that concept. Thanks Mr. Gilmore.

EDIT: I wanted to add Mr. Gilmore's quote, and I am honored to quote a man who I believe holds the most lucid and insightful contemporary view on the matter:

"My real feeling is that anybody who believes in supernatural entities on some level is insane. Whether they believe in The Devil or God, they are abdicating reason. If they really believe they are in communication with some sort of interventionist deity...you know, somebody can be a deist and think that maybe there was some sort of force that launched everything and now has nothing to do with it. That's not anything you can prove. It's also not a matter of faith. It's a matter of making a choice between whether there was something or there wasn't. I think maybe that is the most rational decision. I think science makes it look otherwise, but I don't think somebody like that is mad. But anybody who believes in some kind of existence in deity or spirits or anything that intervenes in their life is not somebody I hold in any kind of esteem."


Edited by Übermensch (12/07/09 12:39 AM)
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"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#404796 - 12/07/09 12:39 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Magister Gilmore

High Priest Gilmore was elevated to the status of Magus upon becoming the High Priest of the Church of Satan.
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#404814 - 12/07/09 02:28 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Pablovilla Offline



Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 267
Loc: Victorville, California
There is an easier way to define insane and sane. A sane person gets along well in society, and an insane person does not. Every living human and many animals have charastics of abnormal psycology, and there is no one person or group of people that are more sane than everyone else.

However a good comedian years ago said that an easy way to define insane is that a person keeps doing the same action that fails each and every time expecting a different result.

Praying to god or some other diety that has never came through is a good example of this just as you had pointed out.
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#404834 - 12/07/09 09:14 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Pablovilla]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Quote:

However a good comedian years ago said that an easy way to define insane is that a person keeps doing the same action that fails each and every time expecting a different result.


By chance do you know what comedian said this?

I took an introduction class for Rapport Leadership during the summer and they said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. So just curious where that quote originated from.

Thanks.
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#404886 - 12/07/09 01:29 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Unknown]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
I'm not sure where that saying originated, but I have started to think about the implications of Magister Gilmore's provocative assertion.

You can think about how religion makes people do insane things, like fly planes into buildings. I mean really, is there any better argument against religion than 9/11?

With that being said, I began to wonder if there was an entry in the DSM for religious fanaticism. As far as I can tell so far, there is not. In Christianity, the bible tells its followers to love the lord with all their heart, and with all their soul, and with all their mind, and with all their strength. Anyone who actually tries to do this, will become insane IMO. Any "true" believer is insane, and they should be diagnosed as such, and treated for it by a doctor.

I began to wonder if churches shouldn't be shut down, or outlawed, and followers diagnosed and treated. I know that sounds Un-American and downright communist but...if what Magister Gilmore said is true, shouldn't these breeding grounds of insanity be closed?

Seems we are headed off-topic now.
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"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#404938 - 12/07/09 06:21 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Iscariot Offline


Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 144
Loc: United States
Magus Gilmore...

And though I agree that true believers are, in some way, insane, how would one justify shutting down churches to the public? Christianity has the unfortunate clause built into it which allows it to cry "persecution!" when someone threatens their organization, and has the infuriating effect of bringing people back and cling to their church more than before. Even the most "normal" Christians become fundamentalists when they feel their faith is being attacked.


Edited by Iscariot (12/07/09 06:31 PM)
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#404947 - 12/07/09 08:02 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 996
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: Übermensch
I began to wonder if churches shouldn't be shut down, or outlawed, and followers diagnosed and treated. I know that sounds Un-American and downright communist but...if what Magister Gilmore said is true, shouldn't these breeding grounds of insanity be closed?


In my opinion, the insanity lies within the people themselves, regardless of whether churches exist or not. Getting rid of the churches would get rid of some of the “learned” symptoms of this; but the basic need to believe would still be there within these individuals and would manifest in some other, equally irrational ways.

I think that in some ways, these people don’t want to be “sane”. I think that reality is just too frightening or generally unpleasant for them, so they retreat to their safer delusions (not to imply that this is necessarily a conscious decision on their part or that they have any real control over this reaction to the world).



Edited by John Prophet (12/07/09 08:09 PM)
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#404951 - 12/07/09 09:37 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: LordofDarkness]
S810 Offline


Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 326
Loc: northwest
Sounds alot like my own experiences with religion. My Father is a higher up in the JW's and oddly enough, he is a big part of my views as far as life and being a satanist. Im of Spanish descent and he used to tell me

"Mijo you must question everything in life."(meaning the government and what they call Christendom, another name for false prophets). and things like "You already know the truth, you just need to make it your own." which ironically are both very satanic in principal.

In short i say "you can put a bow on a shit sandwich, but it's sill a shit sandwich."


For me satanism is more of a blueprint for perfecting the human condition.

and really all this talk of belief and faith is really just semantics. You can see that no matter how you slice it, the word belief doesn't meet with fact, but is rather a word connotating perception.

I personnally think that faith is misused as well. For me i say that if my grampa picks me up from school everyday ,based on criteria i have faith and beleive that he will show up today, however that doesn't base it in fact up and until he shows up.

And as far as satanism qualifying as a religion, as long as the US government acknowledges it as such and CoS has the paperwork to back that up, well I would say that is a concrete fact.
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