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#402671 - 11/20/09 12:42 AM The evidence of myself as a born Satanist
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
The post from Tier Instinct called Father of Evolution turns in his grave got me thinking and I've decided to present to all of you something I'm very proud about;

Quick repliers, please read fully before posting to reduce misunderstanding. This is why I am a supporter of this great religion. This may seem as an essay but I can't post it anywhere else. Dear Moderators, I ask that you don't mind me if it appears that I am trying to post in the wrong area. Should you cancel this post, I understand your reasons and willfully adhere to your judgements in kind respects. Thank you.

When I was about four or five years old give or take, I tried believing in God with the strong suggestive support by my family.

I tried to study and practice for almost 15 years on and off. I studied the bible, went to church, to worship services and heard the man talk his ass off. The only difference was I went to hang out and not worship nor sing while the whole church did so in unison. I just couldn't deal with it.

The one thing I realized is that everybody believes and hears him and even went so far as to claim they have "seen" him.

My grandmother said she saw him... She can't comprehend the very basics of science.

I cut her some slack because she's really old. At least she isn't judgemental on that subject.


Anyway, throughout those 15 years of my life I have not once heard or even seen him.

It was hard enough to believe in him because I always felt at odds with myself and at the time I didn't know why.

I always felt that there was something missing in the general term of religion.

Everybody believed but I saw no sense in any of it because I never ecountered anything spiritual.

My excuse to attempt an impossible feat of believing in a "higher power" is because of one question.

"Who wouldn't want to kiss the ass of someone who has the power to kill you and they demand worship?"

Remember pragmatism survival? I'm glad it came natural to me.

My point is, I would only do it to stay alive.

I had no proof to claim he exists or not and I didn't have the resources to clarify Christianity's credibility at that time.

I felt that my parents were the only people I could trust and who wouldn't lie to me.

If they said "God exists" then I trusted that he did based on their claim.

Children are usually gullible because they are ignorant and sometimes they are raised in fantasy to keep their youth until they grow and acquire wisdom.

This is why Christians aim at children to keep their religion and then they preach to the elderly to keep the herd within control.

My parents were somewhat into Christianity but they wanted to do their own thing also. That is where I found the hypocrisy.

They wanted to do what they pleased; be bikers, drink and party while being naked and just be all out nudists.

They found more of their kind who believe in God but still did what they pleased.

I saw pictures of my mom schooling a male stripper and made him embarrassed. It was a good thing she was dressed in those pictures or I would be sick.

Ever since I was around that age, I always wanted to do things my way.

Even when I was trying out Christianity, I couldn't be that way.

My feelings disagreed with it, I felt like I was imprisoned and choked.

So it wasn't until I found the Satanic Bible that I realized what I've always been.

I fell alseep in my christian academy chapel every time because of the long sitting, reading that damn book, and hearing that preacher just talk without any excitement. coopdevil

That is my evidence that gives me a right to declare myself as a Satanist.

I feel so great when I look in the bathroom mirror and know that I am a supporter of Satanism and eventually an official COS member. I wish that whenever the opportunity comes, I would earn my membership by taking my current responsibilities first until I get the extra money to get it.
_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

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#402699 - 11/20/09 08:19 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: LordofDarkness]
Ygraine Offline

CoS Magistra

Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2849
Loc: Florida
Dear Sir,
I attempted to PM you only to find you are over your topic limit.
Please contact me regarding your sig file.

Thank you.

Hail, Satan!

Ygraine
_________________________
Magistra, Church of Satan/
Autocrat of the Damned





http://magistrayrainetwo.blogspot.com/

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#402858 - 11/21/09 05:35 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Ygraine]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
Yes mame.

I recently sent you a PM and I'm waiting for your response.
_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

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#402861 - 11/21/09 06:25 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: LordofDarkness]
SomethingLikEvil Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/25/08
Posts: 579
That was an interesting read, and I saw a little bit of My younger self in it.

My mother, sister, and I lived with My grandmother and we went to church because it was the "acceptable" thing to do (My grandmother in her younger years almost became a nun). I remember going to Sunday School, wantingly, for two reasons: one was to see our Sunday School teacher's assistant who was very beautiful; the second reason was to show off My new Monster in My Pockets toys to the other kids and regail them with each creatures mythology during show and tell, much to the chagrin of our teacher.
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Resigned -- again.

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#402863 - 11/21/09 08:12 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: SomethingLikEvil]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
Thank you very much for your compliment!

Originally Posted By: SomethingLikeEvil

one was to see our Sunday School teacher's assistant who was very beautiful


Hah! Lucky you! I didn't get the chance during my years in the Christian Academy.

There was this young lady who watched me though.

She was my first babysitter and I used to drink apple juice and play Super Mario 3 on NES over at her house.

I think she was having a little daycare business going on because she would watch maybe 5+ kids with me included.
_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

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#402875 - 11/21/09 11:01 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: LordofDarkness]
Bridget Offline


Registered: 11/20/09
Posts: 15
Loc: Canada
Children in my opinion display satanic characteristics. They are generally self centered, enjoy life and do not screw around when it comes to vengeance. They are simply being their natural selves. Adults tend to see these characteristics as negative and thus try to mold these youngsters by imposing their personal beliefs on them. Children catch on quickly when it comes to how they are expected to act.

As a child my neighbours were active in the Calvary Church. I played with their three children often and was invited to attend. The first thing I noticed was the church focused on children. There was a gymnasium, fun and games, and of course a rewards system. They used a child's self indulgent nature to sway the children into believing in their god. It was a fun experience but when asked if I believed in god, I responded with "No". I was sent home with a message for my parents, stating I was going to hell but that they could save me. My parents not being religious were outraged and I never went back. But what if my parents hopped on that band wagon and tried to save my soul?

LordOfDarkness your parents do not seem like devote Christians so it only makes sense you also would not be one. It's wonderful that you could find a path that better suits you.


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#402883 - 11/22/09 12:54 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Bridget]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
Thank you for your kind words Bridget!

It's funny how Christian churches act regarding children isn't it?

Originally Posted By: Bridget

But what if my parents hopped on that band wagon and tried to save my soul?


I have no idea.

You may still be here probably. Lol
_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

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#402884 - 11/22/09 01:06 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: LordofDarkness]
Delta Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 6754
Loc: Nar
Originally Posted By: LordOfDarkness
You may still be here probably.


Christianity's hottest flames can forge the some of the strongest Satanists. It is a testament to the true Satanist that many people here were raised strict christian with little early influence from the non-christian world. The best of us could be raised without being told the bible is a lie, without a Satanic Bible, without the guidance or logic of atheism and history- And still live according to our rules without knowing them, according to our philosophy without hearing it, and perhaps from christian myth alone they might even call themselves Satanists.
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#402885 - 11/22/09 01:16 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Delta]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
Originally Posted By: Delta
Originally Posted By: LordOfDarkness
You may still be here probably.


Christianity's hottest flames can forge the some of the strongest Satanists. It is a testament to the true Satanist that many people here were raised strict christian with little early influence from the non-christian world. The best of us could be raised without being told the bible is a lie, without a Satanic Bible, without the guidance or logic of atheism and history- And still live according to our rules without knowing them, according to our philosophy without hearing it, and perhaps from christian myth alone they might even call themselves Satanists.


Awsome reply!
_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

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#402886 - 11/22/09 01:29 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: LordofDarkness]
Bridget Offline


Registered: 11/20/09
Posts: 15
Loc: Canada
I agree that many Satanists have Christian backgrounds, but why do you think that is?

As I mentioned before I come from a non religious family. My parents have always supported my interests and I've never felt forced to be a certain way.

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#402888 - 11/22/09 01:45 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Bridget]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Quote:
I agree that many Satanists have Christian backgrounds, but why do you think that is?


Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that Christianity is one of the largest religions in the world and it is not uncommon for one to experience a bit of it?
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#402889 - 11/22/09 01:57 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Unknown]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
I think I'll just sit back and read you, Bridget, and Delta's debate.

The three of you got some good points.
_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

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#402891 - 11/22/09 02:10 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: LordofDarkness]
Bridget Offline


Registered: 11/20/09
Posts: 15
Loc: Canada
Unknown this is true but one can come up with other theories as to why a Christian would become a Satanist.

LordOfDarkness I wasn't aware Delta and I were debating. I'm merely interested in their opinion on this matter.

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#402892 - 11/22/09 02:33 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Bridget]
Delta Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 6754
Loc: Nar
Ceci n'est pas une debat. C'est une pipe.
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#402893 - 11/22/09 02:50 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Bridget]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Quote:
Unknown this is true but one can come up with other theories as to why a Christian would become a Satanist.


Well a Christian cannot really become a Satanist.

If you are a Satanist it is because you were born that way. There is no conversion.
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#402894 - 11/22/09 02:55 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Delta]
Bridget Offline


Registered: 11/20/09
Posts: 15
Loc: Canada
I cannot help but laugh at your last remark -clever. Unless of course by pipe you mean something else.

Unknown if one is a Christian but then comes to the realization that it's not for them there is in some way a transformation. It sounds like you're regurgitating a post made in another thread.

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#402898 - 11/22/09 03:52 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Bridget]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
You mentioned in your post about possible theories as to why one would decide to take up Satanism as opposed to Christianity.

Well Satanism trumps theory with facts. For over 43 years it has been proven that those who have decided to take up the mantle of Satanism have done so because they are born that way. They read The Satanic Bible and see their nature in it. Satanists come from all walks of life and no matter the back round it all comes down to bedrock, your nature as a Satanist.
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#402900 - 11/22/09 04:32 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Unknown]
Bridget Offline


Registered: 11/20/09
Posts: 15
Loc: Canada
I appreciate your posts, I'm just wondering how one proves they are born a certain way? Does the way one is raised not play a role in who they are?

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#402901 - 11/22/09 04:47 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Bridget]
Spelled Moon
Unregistered


The way how one is raised, but also don't forget about the reactions and opinions on that mentioned way, as they are also important in process of forming one's personality.

Little child can not choose, in which way will be raised, but can have some feeling about it whole and can start questioning, or can "join the train". Or, some combination of both.

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#402902 - 11/22/09 05:10 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Bridget]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2153
It is understandable that some may not completely understand the "born not made" bit. I do not speak for the CoS, but this is how I perceive that saying:

"Born not made" does not mean you were born with every nuance of the philosophy in your skull. Before I read the Satanic Bible, I had nothing even approximating Satanic Ritual in my daily routines and activities, and in fact, before TSB confirmed some of my lifelong sentiments, I sometimes displayed very unSatanic behavior.

But, I take my perspective of the saying from this section of Magus Gilmore's introduction to TSB ". . . for it will not transform you into something you are not. It cannot convert you, or persuade you in directions not inherent in your nature." (My emphasis)

You are born with certain predispositions. If you read the book, and have no problem living the philosophy, then chances are you have a few Satanic qualities. If you read the book and the philosophy flows so naturally it's exhilarating, chances are you are a born Satanist.

But that is just my personal interpretation, and in know way represents any official Church answers to your question.
_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#402906 - 11/22/09 05:33 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Bridget]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Being young our parents naturally try to influence us to the best of their ability. They wish to see us grow up as intelligent and productive members of society. They also want us to follow the religion they too have been brought up in usually because they feel it is the "right way". This plays a huge role in our development as human beings. As we mature and grow older we begin to de-identify from what our parents tried to teach us and begin to develop our own independence. I am suggesting simply 2 very important things based upon my experience:

1.) It matters not how you are raised nor what religious background you have, your carnal nature will always trump such forces.

2.) The nature of the Satanist has and always will be there. No amount of indoctrination, rejection, and denial will ever change that.

Satanists use The Satanic Bible as a measuring stick for their natural inculcation of The Nine Satanic Statements.

That is what I mean by Satanists being born and not made. And this is just an opinion based upon my own personal experience.


Edited by Unknown (11/22/09 05:37 AM)
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#402919 - 11/22/09 09:30 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Bridget]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
Originally Posted By: Bridget

LordOfDarkness I wasn't aware Delta and I were debating. I'm merely interested in their opinion on this matter.


Oh Ok. Thank you for informing me. smile
_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

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#402977 - 11/23/09 12:14 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Unknown]
Pablovilla Offline



Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 267
Loc: Victorville, California
Originally Posted By: Unknown
Quote:
Unknown this is true but one can come up with other theories as to why a Christian would become a Satanist.


Well a Christian cannot really become a Satanist.

If you are a Satanist it is because you were born that way. There is no conversion.



There is another way to put it, one can be raised as a christian, but not be a true christian. A good example of this is in the book of Job, where god takes away everything that Job had and Job stays true to his faith. That is what I would call a christian, as no matter what happened to him he did not loose his faith.

However if someone is not a true christian they would not follow Job's example and relaize that they were wrong to put faith in a man in the sky with a beard, because he would realize that god is not all good, or god is not all powerful, or god does not exist and they would realize as many other wise people have that they had been played a fool.
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Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result - Ben Franklin

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#402980 - 11/23/09 01:08 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Pablovilla]
Bridget Offline


Registered: 11/20/09
Posts: 15
Loc: Canada
Thanks to everyone for giving their opinions on this -I tend to question everything. When I first read TSB it felt like a reflection of who I was. This got me thinking about why I am the way I am. Yes many of my attributes can be accredited to carnal nature but not all of them. I understand the idea of being a born Satanist but cannot help to think there is something more to it.

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#402981 - 11/23/09 01:24 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Bridget]
VictorWolf Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 237
This reminds me of how local Christians tried to convert me and some other kids. Looking back, this was kind of creepy.

They dressed up like clowns. They'd walk around the neighborhood, obviously attracting the interests of children. Then they had a little "show" across the street in a little grassy park (which was right across the street from my aunt's house who was able to keep a watch the entire time to negate the creep factor; I also assume that she knew them though I never asked).

They did this whole comedy routine, which I still think was great. And then they began about Sin and Faith (represented by black and gold balloons). Happily the golden "Faith" balloon popped, which made everything a lot funnier.
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"It's pretty fun, doing the impossible." -Walt Disney

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#402982 - 11/23/09 01:29 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Pablovilla]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
"Conversion," in religious parlance, applies when someone adopts a set of beliefs different from the ones they already have. Anyone can convert to another religion. It simply means adopting the new beliefs and making them a normative part of one's life and worldview.

Under that definition, someone could "convert" to Satanism, since it describes itself as a religion. The rub comes in on the assertion that Satanists are born that way. It's only when they discover the "philosophy of satanism" as espoused by its founders and hierarchy, that it "resonates" with who they really are, according to some posts I've been reading. My answer is that it should resonate with them, if it's a sound religion. It should resonate with who the person really is. That's precisely what makes people convert or adopt a new set of beliefs. So I would assert that the answer is yes to both questions:

A) Yes, a person can convert to Satanism, and
B) Yes, a person is born a Satanist (an orthodox satanist would assert this, just as someone from another religion would)

Both propositions can be held to be true at the same time. As a matter of fact, The Black Mass requires a vivid denial of the Christian God, so it would not exist, especially as a "psychodrama" if it were not to serve as a religious drama and acceptance of the new beliefs, while at the same time, exorcising the old ones. Certainly a Christian can "convert" to Satanism, and The Black Mass would be a powerful ritual to perform in such a case.

Just my 2 cents.
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#402985 - 11/23/09 02:08 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Pablovilla Offline



Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 267
Loc: Victorville, California
Agreed, however I have always known myself to be different than those that are arround me. For many years I have had those they have tried to convert me, but in the process I have learned more about the things that did not make sence, and to me proof that god does not exist. The existance of something that requires faith is impossible to accept.

Electrons can't be seen, but can be measured, same with many small things, an ameoba exists but can only be seen under a microscope. So that exist as well.

I understand christanity, but do not belive in it, and far back as I can remember there were always something that was said in any story that made no sence to me at the time, but when I asked about it was told that it takes faith to understand why.

Later after years of study I came to the conclusion that it is all a racket, one is forgiven for harming others just by giving something to the church, but what about the one harmed? Also the stand on birth control and everything else is only to gain money and power over people at the expence of the people. All organized religions that I'm aware of require some form of tide to go out and get more suckers to join.

I was raised as a christian, but never really was one. I questioned all of the things that I was taught. Also I have always belived it is wrong to try and convert anyone to another religion, and that goes right against what the Good News club, and you name it say that a good christian is suppost to do, and the same applies to Muslems, and jewss they are to get others to join their faith. This in my opinion goes against free will, and personal choice. I think that this is why when I do get to the door with the JW's and others that they back peddle so quickly. I can see right through their mumbo jumbo and superstitious nonsence and they know it.
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Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result - Ben Franklin

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#402986 - 11/23/09 02:17 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Pablovilla]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
"I have always believed it is wrong to try and convert anyone to another religion."

Yes, that is called "proselytism," and is a separate issue altogether. It's true that there is a command to, "go and make disciples" in Matthew. That would entail calling people to repent of their old ways of thinking and acting, and exhorting them to adopt new beliefs and actions (conversion). This can take many forms, and in the modern church it is called "evangelism."

Here's an excerpt from The Black Mass:
"I acknowledge and confess my past error. Renouncing all past allegiances, I proclaim that Satan-Lucifer rules the earth, and I ratify and renew my promise to recognize and honor Him in all things, without reservation, desiring in return His manifold assistance in the successful completion of my endeavors and the fulfillment of my desires. I call upon you, my Brother, to bear witness and to do likewise."

That perfectly describes conversion.
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#402988 - 11/23/09 02:21 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
Then I ask; What is the difference between a "practicing Satanist" who isn't born one but applies the same principles in their life like the naturally born Satanist who applies these principles even before they picked up the Satanic Bible?

I see that I am a naturally born Satanist only because ever since I was introduced to Christianity in my innocent years, I still felt like it wasn't normal.

I still had that burning desire to do my own thing.

I did trust my parents about the deity's existence, but I still wanted to go my way.

But at the same time, I felt like I was forced to... Like a slave.

And it is because of this vision of myself born into religious slavery that I never really grew close to this god.

I tried for those 15 years to see what the problem is, why I feel this way, why it was personally considered wrong if everybody supposedly believed in it.

I asked myself that if 5 or so billion people believes in this god, could all of them be wrong.

Well... I found my answer.

I was never really a Christian nor was I able to be devoted.

There could have been some things that I may have thought to be stimulating for a ritual but it never took me away from my natural desires.

There was a time where I had fallen into a lack of perspective and questioned if I really believed in the deity but I quickly came back.

I just couldn't follow through. But ever since I read The Satanic Bible, I actually am glad that I am what I am.

I think that a Christian who is converted to Satanism is therefore a person trying to get away from something or they were liking the "bad-guy" look and became Devil Worshippers.

In my opinion, one can only be Christian if they accept the faith and have no resistence with their mind and body with or without parental pressure and felt a sense of peace and happiness for the rest of their lives.

I think that it is a reverse effect for Christians as it is for us when talking about "practicing religion"

They fall out of their faith and delving into ours by lust, greed, or some other so-called sin and then bounce right back.

For us, if we were to try Christianity, we would bounce right back to our natural selves.

I think this is where the "Satanists are born, not made" came from.

My opinionated conclusion is that the difference between a Christian converted "Satanist" and a born Satanist is that the converted wants to free themselves and still believe in the Ethreal (spiritual) mindset in some areas while the Carnal has always been the natural born Satanist whom believes in flesh, materialism, misanthropism, epicureanism, and "I-theism". (see The Satanic Scriptures for more details on Ethreal and Carnal people.)

This is my 2 cents as far as converting and practicing religions.

If you really look at it from outside the box, you'll notice that we are the complete flip-side of Christianity which includes spirituality, other religions, and cultures also while Devil Worshippers are only half-ass.

That would be my claim and proof that we are the "True Satanists".

And it is that moral boundary between Satanism and Christianity that keeps the real deal with what they are.

Real Christians with Christianity and real Satanists with Satanism.

We don't oppose everything. The only things we do not oppose are the things that come naturally and the things we individualy agree on.

Would that make a Christian Satanic if he/she were to "naturally" conform to his/her faith?

Absolutely not. The reason why is because of that moral boundary and the meaning of Satanism which for those who are new is; "The opposer, the accuser, the adversary."

Where does the Pagans and Devil Worshippers fall into when describing this "moral coin"?

They fall into Christian Heresy. They are what makes the fine line in between. Even though they do execute some freedom and responsibility, they still can't separate from that "spiritual" mindset and thusly still considered as Ethreal and NOT Carnal.

This is where I refer to Anton LaVey's statement that Satanism has "flipped the coin completely over".

HS!

LordOfDarkness


Edited by LordOfDarkness (11/23/09 03:37 AM)
Edit Reason: Sentence correction
_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

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#402993 - 11/23/09 04:04 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
Quote:
"Conversion," in religious parlance, applies when someone adopts a set of beliefs different from the ones they already have. Anyone can convert to another religion. It simply means adopting the new beliefs and making them a normative part of one's life and worldview.

The rub comes in on the assertion that Satanists are born that way. It's only when they discover the "philosophy of satanism" as espoused by its founders and hierarchy, that it "resonates" with who they really are, according to some posts I've been reading. My answer is that it should resonate with them, if it's a sound religion. It should resonate with who the person really is. That's precisely what makes people convert or adopt a new set of beliefs.


But Satanists do not "adopt a new set of beliefs." There is not a new "set of beliefs different from the ones [we] already [had]," which we discover when we first investigate Satanism. So by your definition, you can not convert to Satanism. You can discover Satanism. You can affirm your agreement with the principles of Satanism. You can even study Satanism, but Satanism itself can not be "learned."

Pretenders, fakers, and "converters" are out there and in here. A person can do everything they want to walk, talk and act like a Satanist but, in my opinion, they're wasting their time pretending to be a person they are not (and ironically violating Sin #4).

Hell, I'll post the whole thing:

4. Self-deceit: It’s in the “Nine Satanic Statements” but deserves to be repeated here. Another cardinal sin. We must not pay homage to any of the sacred cows presented to us, including the roles we are expected to play ourselves. The only time self-deceit should be entered into is when it’s fun, and with awareness. But then, it’s not self-deceit!

Church Of Satan


Satanists do not convert to Satanism:

Conversion implies "adopting a new set of beliefs."
"Adopting a new set of beliefs" implies self-deceit.
So conversion implies self-deceit.
But self-deceit is a Satanic Sin.
So conversion is a Satanic Sin.

Therefore Satanists do not convert, by definition.

QED


Edited by Drimlybunk (11/23/09 05:58 AM)
Edit Reason: Typo.
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#402994 - 11/23/09 04:38 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Drimlybunk]
Bridget Offline


Registered: 11/20/09
Posts: 15
Loc: Canada
Dr. LaVey also talks about self delusion in his interview with Eugene Robinson -titled Birth of Tragedy.

I am wondering, is adopting a new set of beliefs self-deceit if those new found beliefs best suit you?

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#402996 - 11/23/09 05:34 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Drimlybunk]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
Drimblybuck said: "But Satanists do not "adopt a new set of beliefs." There is not a new "set of beliefs different from the ones [we] already [had]," whidh we discover when we first investigate Satanism. So by your definition, you can not convert to Satanism. You can discover Satanism. You can affirm your agreement with the principles of Satanism. You can even study Satanism, but Satanism itself can not be "learned.""

If Satanism is merely what is already reflected in your carnal nature, then by that definition everyone is a born Satanist. Are you prepared to make that assertion?

Satanism certainly does have a set of beliefs. Its central belief is the denial of an involved, personal God that intervenes in human activity, and rather belief in self as god and the prime mover of energy and master of one's own destiny. That is a purely Satanic belief. Denial of god is fundamental to satanism, and deifying oneself is also fundamental to a truly Satanic perspective. And you cited some other doctrines, and referred to the COS website, which states that in order to be an agent you have to "demonstrate a thorough grasp of the philosophy of the Church of Satan."
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#402997 - 11/23/09 05:56 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Bridget]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
Quote:
I am wondering, is adopting a new set of beliefs self-deceit if those new found beliefs best suit you?


In my opinion:

Agreeing with a new idea is not deceitful.

Working to change oneself to fit a new idea for the sake of some group is deceitful.

"Adopting a new set of beliefs" sounds very much to me like changing yourself. It sounds like a person can go out to the store find a "new set" and just take it home with them.

The Satanic Bible was not written to change anyone's mind. A person either agrees or not. No one can "adopt a new set of beliefs" from it and call himself a Satanist for the reasons I mentioned in the previous post.
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#403000 - 11/23/09 06:27 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
Thanks for taking the time to spell my name. skull

Quote:
If Satanism is merely what is already reflected in your carnal nature, then by that definition everyone is a born Satanist. Are you prepared to make that assertion?


No. Are you?

Did I say that? You said that. Pointing out things I didn't say and then offering them as debatable points limits my ability to respond to them. Please explain why you read, "Satanism is merely what is already reflected in your carnal nature," into what I wrote.

Quote:
Its central belief is the denial of an involved, personal God that intervenes in human activity, and rather belief in self as god and the prime mover of energy and master of one's own destiny.


Does everyone agree with that instinctively? Certainly not. And you can't decide to buy something like "we are our own Gods." If a person doesn't naturally understand it, he could spend the rest of his life trying to convince himself of it... but to what ends? So some people who would ordinarily disagree with him accept him? Not so out of the ordinary... in fact it's rather common-place behavior. But it is not Satanic.

Quote:
And you cited some other doctrines, and referred to the COS website, which states that in order to be an agent you have to "demonstrate a thorough grasp of the philosophy of the Church of Satan."


I'm not acting as an "agent of the Church of Satan" on this message board (or anywhere else for that matter). If I was telling you to leave or change your behavior, that would be a different matter. I merely challenged your point with my own perspective and evidence.


Edited by Drimlybunk (11/23/09 04:16 PM)
Edit Reason: finished a sentence...
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#403032 - 11/23/09 11:18 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Drimlybunk]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Excellent post!

From the introduction of The Satanic Bible by High Priest Gilmore:

There is nothing to fear from the Satanic Bible for it will not transform you into something you are not.

There is more but I would encourage others to read it on their own. wink
_________________________









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#403036 - 11/23/09 11:47 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
Originally Posted By: ubermensch

If Satanism is merely what is already reflected in your carnal nature, then by that definition everyone is a born Satanist.


BUT... Not everyone is Carnal.

Everyone has a different nature than others.

This is what my concept in my last post was intending.

I would say that through a Satanic viewpoint, everyone is organized into a faction, religion, or a certain mindset based on their natural instincts.

If a Buddhist is naturally that way and hasn't any personal war with himself, then he is a Buddhist by nature.

It is the same way for any other religion.

Especially in Satanism.

You're either not a Satanist based on your nature, or you are one.

If any disagreement, please share your view with me.

This is my opinion. smile
_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

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#403055 - 11/23/09 03:19 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
High Priest Gilmore has written an essay based upon what you are discussing here. He calls such folks who want to parade and be pretenders of Satanism Rebels Without Cause. Here are a few excerpts from his essay, italics his.:

Some of these “Satan-fans” propose that Satanists should rebel against Satanism or its organizational exemplar, the Church of Satan, to prove their individuality and thus be considered “more Satanic.” They misperceive our championing of freedom and individualism to mean a support of disregarding personal responsibility. They are wrong. 'Responsibility to the responsible' is one of our mottos.

The Church of Satan is not a babysitting service for those who prove themselves as non-satanists. The natural inculcation of the Satanic Philosophy is self evident and requires no conversion. Those who are non--satanists are shown the door because they assumed rebellion was enough to be a Satanist. They are wrong.

Magus Gilmore continues: Some newcomers to our philosophy do not grasp its axioms and tear at Satanism as if it were some kind of straightjacket. Others hope to wield it as an “anything goes” card rather than the key to accountable liberty that it is. They observe our list of “sins” and “rules” and don’t grasp that such terms are used with tongue firmly planted in cheek, while simultaneously missing the point that there is an ethical structure to our philosophy—our “third side” which is so elusive to those limited to dualist thinking. These lists are guidelines and tools based on keen observation of human social behavior, not arbitrary regulations or “shalt nots” handed down from “on high” or belched forth from “down below.” Each Satanist is welcome to take ‘em out for a test drive and see how they work. Most of us find them to be both accurate and useful. That’s why we adopt “Satanist” as a proper label for ourselves—Anton LaVey’s philosophy is completely coincident with our personal approach to living.

Either you are living life as a Satanist unaware of it for lack of identification or you are not one at all. It is just that simple. There is no struggle, Satanism is not difficult for the Satanist. It is a completely applicable and coherent philosophy for those who are born that way.

Not just anybody is welcome under this tent flap!
_________________________









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#403063 - 11/23/09 03:55 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Unknown]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
Do you deny that Satanism has a set of beliefs?

Do you deny that sometimes people can change their mind about something?

Your assertions are untenable, as many exceptions to your "rule" would apply. If you applied simple logic you would see this, but you are clinging to a "belief" that no one can convert to Satanism. That is a belief, and not a very logical one at that. It is a very absolutist position, and exceptions could be posited against it. Furthermore, it's an assertion that is not supported by any of the Satanic texts. It seems as though you made it up, and now you're trying to make it so by conjuring up all manner of conjecture.
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#403077 - 11/23/09 04:24 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
Quote:
Do you deny that Satanism has a set of beliefs?

Do you deny that sometimes people can change their mind about something?


I didn't read either of those statements into Unknown's post. I think you're putting words in his mouth.

Quote:
Your assertions are untenable, as many exceptions to your "rule" would apply.


Please provide one.

What changed for you when you discovered Satanism?
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#403078 - 11/23/09 04:27 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
You obviously do not know how to read.

WHY are you trying so hard to make Satanism fit into a perception that is not what it is?

What bothers you SO much about the fact that Satanists are born and not made?

Why are you not grasping this very elementary concept?
_________________________









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#403084 - 11/23/09 04:37 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Unknown]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
I will ask the both of you again since you both conveniently avoided answering the questions:

Do you deny that Satanism has a set of beliefs?

Do you deny that sometimes people can change their mind about something?
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#403085 - 11/23/09 04:42 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Quote:
I will ask the both of you again since you both conveniently avoided answering the questions:


Convenience?

Well why should I allow your stupidity to be an inconvenience to me? The answers to your questions are self evident for a Satanist.

If you don't know then......
_________________________









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#403086 - 11/23/09 04:44 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Unknown]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Unknown
Quote:
I will ask the both of you again since you both conveniently avoided answering the questions:


Convenience?

Well why should I allow your stupidity to be an inconvenience to me? The answers to your questions are self evident for a Satanist.

If you don't know then......


Ah, again he avoids answering the questions and instead resorts to personal attacks. Bravo!

Don't forget, it was my "stupidity" that asserted both points to be true, that one can indeed convert to Satanism, and one is born a Satanist. I said both can be true at the same time. So far you haven't addressed that. I'm not trying to make Satanism something it is not, on the contrary, I have affirmed what it is while at the same time explaining common misconceptions about "conversion." It is your stupidity that has failed to see what was so obviously stated.
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#403088 - 11/23/09 04:50 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
No one is going to answer irrelevant questions.

Go ahead, assume we answer however you wanted us to and respond to it as you planned.

Until you provide some example of the, "exceptions to my rule," I'm done here.

Please PM me to get my attention when you do.

PS. I apologize to LordOfDarkness for hijacking the thread. Also, LordOfDarkness, your in-box is full...


Edited by Drimlybunk (11/23/09 04:51 PM)
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#403089 - 11/23/09 04:52 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Drimlybunk]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Drimlybunk
No one is going to answer irrelevant questions.

Go ahead, assume we answer however you wanted us to and respond to it as you planned.

Until you provide some example of the, "exceptions to my rule," I'm done here.

Please PM me to get my attention when you do.



PS. I apologize to LordOfDarkness for hijacking the thread. Also, LordOfDarkness, your in-box is full...


Just answer the questions! What is so hard? Are you afraid of public humiliation?
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#403091 - 11/23/09 05:09 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
Dimwit said: "And you can't decide to buy something like "we are our own Gods." If a person doesn't naturally understand it, he could spend the rest of his life trying to convince himself of it... but to what ends?"

I mean really, what kind of a nonsensical statement is that? I think you have been pounding your pud too long. What does it mean to "naturally understand" something? Did you just make that phrase up, Dimwit? I think you did.

You said: "And you can't decide to buy something like "we are our own Gods." So, you assume that people make no conscious decisions about what to believe? but they do all the time. How do people come to believe something then? Explain that Mr. Fucking Genius. Are you twelve? You live in a fantasy world! Probably from jacking off to internet porn too much. What a dipshit.
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#403093 - 11/23/09 05:23 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Unknown]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
Originally Posted By: Unknown
You obviously do not know how to read.

WHY are you trying so hard to make Satanism fit into a perception that is not what it is?

What bothers you SO much about the fact that Satanists are born and not made?

Why are you not grasping this very elementary concept?


I side with you on this. Satanism doesn't bend to one's perception but one's perception must bend to Satanism.
_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

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#403096 - 11/23/09 05:27 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: LordofDarkness]
Bridget Offline


Registered: 11/20/09
Posts: 15
Loc: Canada
If one's perception must bend to Satanism is that not in some way considered conversion?

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#403098 - 11/23/09 05:47 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2153
You know, I don't agree with everyone here, I even disagree with Dirmlybunk and Unknown on occasion, but so far they've been acting like gentlemen and you've been acting like a Troll.

If I recall you had two questions. Both of those gentlemen preferred not to answer. Well, here's my opinion:

Does Satanism have a set of beliefs? No. If anything, Satanism only makes a few basic assumptions about the reality of the universe but beyond that it is based in deep skepticism and doubt. And beyond the law there is even room for personal ethics. Satanism is not a babysitter religion.

Can people change their mind about something? Yes. Today I thought I'd have toast. Then I thought I could indulge in a McGriddle instead.

As for your incapability to understand Dirmlybunk's sentiment of natural understanding, it goes back to the section of the introduction to TSB I quoted earlier in this thread. You know, the "inherent in ones nature" bit? As for someone who has Nietzsche as their Avatar, and the name to boot, would you deny that Übermenschen are born and not made?

There are some people who are born with mental problems which limit their learning capabilities. Discovering that one is a Satanist is learning; you learned where you stand in the world. Some people are not born with the capability to doubt. Conversely, some are born without the ability to believe.
_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#403099 - 11/23/09 05:54 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: NapalmNick]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
"but so far they've been acting like gentlemen and you've been acting like a Troll."

You sir are a liar. Someone called me an idiot first. I simply am smacking them back, tooth for tooth and eye for eye. Your failure to acknowledge that simply proves that you help jack your little wannabe buddies off at night when no one is looking!

"Some people are not born with the capability to doubt. Conversely, some are born without the ability to believe."

Oh really. Prove that statement. Show me one scientific study that substantiates that stupidly ridiculous statement you just made. Are you sure your not related to the DimpleButt?

When you see the sun in the sky, do you believe it's really there? Of course you do. Everyone is born with the capability to believe, the only exception would be someone who is completely psychotic. And everyone is capable of doubting, obviously. All people have many doubts.
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#403101 - 11/23/09 06:02 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: NapalmNick]
Bridget Offline


Registered: 11/20/09
Posts: 15
Loc: Canada
What is TSB if not a set of beliefs?

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#403103 - 11/23/09 06:08 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2153
Originally Posted By: ubermensch
You sir are a liar. Someone called me an idiot first. I simply am smacking them back, tooth for tooth and eye for eye. Your failure to acknowledge that simply proves that you help jack your little wannabe buddies off at night when no one is looking!

I apologize. I didn't read the entire thread. But I'm not really sorry. Sure, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. But do you have no sense of self-interest? Your behavior continues to put you in a most precarious postion.

Quote:
Are you sure your not related to the DimpleButt?

I guess it's possible. I mean, we're both very charming.

Quote:
When you see the sun in the sky, do you believe it's really there? Of course you do.

Nope. No need to believe. Scientists can tell me it's real.
_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#403104 - 11/23/09 06:11 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Bridget]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2153
The Satanic Bible is a collection of essays and basic rituals meant to be read and confirmed or denied by the individual reader. No belief required.

Just clarifying. You seem to be nice.
_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#403106 - 11/23/09 06:16 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: LordofDarkness]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10140
Besides warnings that will be handed out shortly, I would like to publicly remind users that courtesy is a requirement of use of LttD. It has not been observed here by all. The offending parties will know who they are shortly if they do not already.

Keep it clean folks or I'll rain on everyone's fucking parade.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#403107 - 11/23/09 06:27 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Bridget]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
What I mean is basically that Satanism is what it is and one cannot see Satanism the way they want to see it.

I was taking that from Peter's book The Satanic Scriptures

Thank you for asking though. I meant to clear that up a little better.
_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

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#403109 - 11/23/09 06:34 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
I would like to make sure everybody knows where I stand.

I have nothing against anyone here and I like to debate respectfully here.

For anyone who is trying to offend or have no courtesy, I won't be on their side on that particular point only because I agree with Hagen von Tronje.

courtesy is very important to this forum.

I do however stand for my opinions that I have recently posted on this topic. But like I said, on the offenses and such, I won't agree with. smile

Ubermensch, You have a point and so does Bridget and Unknown. I take it back if it seems as though I side with anyone's insults or offensive behavior.

I for one am glad to see our discussion debate further.

Let's keep this on a respectful level so we won't have any problems... OK guys?


Edited by LordOfDarkness (11/23/09 06:39 PM)
Edit Reason: Added text
_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

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#403110 - 11/23/09 06:37 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10140
Notice:

User "ubermensch" has received a temporary suspension for chronic rudeness and needless hostility. Further offenses may result in longer suspensions or a permanent ban. I do not suggest walking down the path he chose.

Because I'm a bastard, I think suspensions for such misbehavior will be accompanied by public humiliation, a la public caning. Enjoy.

_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#403116 - 11/23/09 07:06 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Drimlybunk]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
Originally Posted By: Drimlybunk

PS. I apologize to LordOfDarkness for hijacking the thread. Also, LordOfDarkness, your in-box is full...


That's OK. I'm glad you came and spoke your opinion.

This topic was made for anyone's thought.

I dropped a message from my quota. You should be able to send a PM now.

There is something I wish to speak privately to you about.

Something I must confess after reading old posts.
_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

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#403117 - 11/23/09 07:13 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: NapalmNick]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
Great post NapalmNick!

Very informative.
_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

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#403588 - 11/26/09 06:42 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
Notice:

User "ubermensch" has received a temporary suspension for chronic rudeness and needless hostility. Further offenses may result in longer suspensions or a permanent ban. I do not suggest walking down the path he chose.

Because I'm a bastard, I think suspensions for such misbehavior will be accompanied by public humiliation, a la public caning. Enjoy.



Hahaha! I certainly deserved this! I want to apologize for coming off as an ass. Seriously, I was joking around, and it came off really badly. I don't harbor any ill feelings at all towards anyone on this thread, or to the management, or to anyone at all. I messed up!

Thanks for having me back. And thanks for the caning! Feel free to pile on, I earned it.
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#403830 - 11/29/09 02:26 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Tapio Offline


Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 25
Loc: Gothenburg, Sweden
Keeping on with my studying since this summer I haven´t really found any questions that hasn´t already been answered in the many posts on this forum. But on the whole "Born satanist"-issue... I´m just not feeling it. To me, I consider Satanism to be a philosophy at first hand. More like buddhism than any other big religion. To me, to actually state a "Born that way"- thinking states a religious view in the same way that muslims, hindues, christians and so on... If there is no God, Fate and so on... there shouldn´t really be a viewpoint like this. That´s just common sense.

To adapt a whole new way of thinking isn´t really that different from starting to listening to a new genre of music. The mostpart of satanists that I know come from an atheistic upbringing and having found satanism has more been a way to "evolve" within this way of thinking.

So when people discuss this, "I am a born satanist". I can see the egopart in it and getting the hardcore-points needed but I also see the same pattern as the Harry Potter- books with all wizards and mugglers...

There is a very strong black and white- thinking going on in this matter, I think. And it doesn´t feel it holds any water in comparison to how TSB portrayed the matter?

Or am I totally not getting it?
_________________________
Not evolving is dying

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#403838 - 11/29/09 04:08 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Tapio]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#403870 - 11/29/09 12:33 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Tapio]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 995
Loc: My suburban lair
I think that Satanism is more than just a philosophy; it’s also an active approach to the world.

This quote by Blanche Barton illustrates what I’m talking about-
Satanists have an innate complexity of mind that hungers for uncompromising examination and speculation, not superficially-comforting pap. We don't need to be comforted; we prefer the invigorating, bracing winds of truth and terror.”

The truth of reality can be very terrifying and most people really do want to be comforted. They are comforted by their lies. In my opinion, this is one of the big differences between a Satanic worldview and that of others. I think that this is also one of the reasons that self-deceit is mentioned in both the The Nine Satanic Statements and The Nine Satanic Sins.

If a person is comforted by their own self-deceit then it is very unlikely that they would even be willing to change their worldview. They’d rather hide behind a comfortable lie, than expose themselves to a terrifying truth. This difference in one’s basic approach to life is, in my opinion, a big part of what makes someone a Satanist.

Similarly, even if a person was able to “convert” to Satanism, the only reason that they would want to is because they feel that there is something wrong with their current philosophy. If a person is born into a Christian household, holds a Christian world view and is completely comfortable with that, then they would have no reason to want to “become” a Satanist or to adopt a Satanic philosophy. The fact that different religious philosophies suit different individuals, to different degrees, indicates a difference in natural predisposition right there.

This is why I think that there is some credence to the idea of Satanists being born and not made. The fact is that even if an individual could change their philosophy or world view, the only reason that they would want to is because it, in some way, doesn’t suit them to begin with. And this tells me that it wasn’t really their true worldview at all. If it was, and it did suit them completely, then they would have no reason to reject it in favor of something else in the first place.


Originally Posted By: Tapio
To me, to actually state a "Born that way"- thinking states a religious view in the same way that muslims, hindues, christians and so on... If there is no God, Fate and so on... there shouldn´t really be a viewpoint like this.


This view does not imply the existence of “god or fate”. It’s just nature. People have different natural predispositions to all kinds of things.

Originally Posted By: Tapio
So when people discuss this, "I am a born satanist". I can see the egopart in it and getting the hardcore-points needed but I also see the same pattern as the Harry Potter- books with all wizards and mugglers...

There is a very strong black and white- thinking going on in this matter, I think. And it doesn´t feel it holds any water in comparison to how TSB portrayed the matter?

Well there is definitely an element of superiority, or at the very least, alienation, there. But that’s good. In order to maintain standards you must draw lines, make judgments and be willing to use personal discrimination. In this politically correct world, many people don’t want such judgments to exist and think that we should all be the same or “equal”. This goes back to that “truth and terror” quote above. It’s the difference between a Satanic worldview and others.
_________________________


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#403898 - 11/29/09 03:32 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: John Prophet]
Carpe_Noctem Offline


Registered: 11/20/09
Posts: 8
Loc: Fort Leonard Wood, MO
I am fairly new to these forums, and I would just like to say that, after reading the Satanic Bible, and a few other pieces of literature, I came to realize that what was being said, was, in fact, how I live and feel on a daily basis.

I grew up in a Catholic household with strong influences on the beliefs. I went with my family to church, which felt like a chore, and because of it, called myself a Catholic, along with my family for 15 years.

Now looking at myself today, I can confidently say that I was born as a satanist. Not Converted.

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#403935 - 11/29/09 09:47 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Carpe_Noctem]
rolandstgermain Offline


Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 38
Loc: South Carolina
Personally, I think that there is a causal chain connecting every event. We are products of this causal chain which includes genetics among other things. Satanists are born Satanists from this line of reasoning. This is why, I think, that one cannot chose to be a Satanist. I may be wandering too far into metaphysical abstractions.

These are my views for what they are worth.
_________________________
Black Man of the Woods

The mass crushes beneath it everything...that is excellent, individual, qualified and select.

-Jose Ortega y Gasset-

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#404007 - 11/30/09 01:24 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: rolandstgermain]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
I think it boils down to what people believe, and why they believe it.

Everybody believes something. To deny that you have "beliefs," in trying to prove oneself as having an "emancipated" mind, is self-delusion. The religious man knows this. The religious man knows that everybody believes something, and because of that, he also knows that he can get you to believe something else, if he packages it properly.

Belief that there is no God, is just another belief. Belief that people are born Satanist, is just another belief. The whole point of the world, is to get you to believe something...ie.e to believe in the standards that are passed down from a ruling class. In other words, belief in country, and company. Belief that this fabric detergent will get your clothes cleaner than that clothing detergent, etc. There is a battle continually waged for our minds to decide to believe something. If you are going to practice Satanism, you have to make an effort to do so. In other words, you have to make a decision. "Is this who I am?" "Is this true?" You have to study the sacred texts, and conduct yourself according to the ethical codes therein as well.

If a satanist practices truth instead of self-delusion, then he is always evaluating what is true and what isn't. That means he has to decide what is true. It's an act of the free will. Some people think that believing is just something that occurs "naturally." I disagree with that. We always decide what we believe is true and what is not, it is an act of our free will. Some do it unconsciously, but others, knowing this, bring it to their conscious mind and embrace it. That person's mind is emancipated, because he chooses what to believe based on his own needs. He no longer deludes himself that something is "really" true, that is secondary, what matters most is what benefit will be derived by believing this or that. This person cannot be converted, unless he wants to. The other person is more easily persuaded because he doesn't understand the process going on in his unconscious mind.

Satanism calls itself a religion. That means it has a set of definite beliefs, and a moral code. It has sacred texts and honored prophets. All religions have an eschatology. That is one thing that Satanism never had, until Peter Gilmore. As far as I can tell from reading TSS, His eschatological view encompasses something he calls "justice." However I don't know what he means by that, because he doesn't elaborate much. I can guess that he means retributive justice, not restorative justice, in that, no longer will mediocrity reign, but instead meritocracy will reign supreme.
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#404068 - 11/30/09 07:59 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2153
Originally Posted By: ubermensch
Everybody believes something. To deny that you have "beliefs," in trying to prove oneself as having an "emancipated" mind, is self-delusion. The religious man knows this. The religious man knows that everybody believes something, and because of that, he also knows that he can get you to believe something else, if he packages it properly.

To me, the word "belief" implies an assumption that is held on to with apprehension at its core. If someone has a set of beliefs, that is, a chain of treasured assumptions, this apprehension is magnified because if one belief is shattered they can all be shattered. I do not believe that the earth is round. I accept that is the conclusion which has been confirmed by science time and time again for several years now, and and if scientific study were to reveal otherwise, it would not go into a hissy fit over how "wrong" it was. Doubt has no shame in correcting itself.

Quote:
Belief that there is no God, is just another belief.

No. That's doubt, which is an entirely different thing. Such a statement is like the Christian fundies claim that "It takes more faith to be an atheist."
Belief requires one to shut out all other possibilities. Doubt does not. Doubt merely says things can be "more likely" or "less likely" depending on evidence. If there is NO evidence then you have NO reason to believe anything.

Quote:
Belief that people are born Satanist, is just another belief.

I don't believe I'm a Satanist. I can clearly see that I am one by comparing my life with the criteria in TSB.

Quote:
Belief that this fabric detergent will get your clothes cleaner than that clothing detergent

That's not belief. If a fabric detergent gets my clothes clean then it does. And I proceed to buy it in bulk.

Quote:
If you are going to practice Satanism, you have to make an effort to do so.

Not really. I call myself a Satanist because that's just how I am. The only effort I exert is toward my personal endeavours. Which is a Satanic criterion.

Quote:
We always decide what we believe is true and what is not, it is an act of our free will.

In my experience, "free will" is largely a spiritual concept implying a supreme being who could control you, but who does not.

Sure, people can make decisions. But no one can change their nature. A person may dye their hair, but it does not change the fact that after a few months they'll have non-colored roots showing. Predisposition is a very real thing. And no, I don't believe in it. Science has confirmed certain patterns of behavior and attitudes are inherent.

Quote:
Satanism calls itself a religion. That means it has a set of definite beliefs, and a moral code. It has sacred texts and honored prophets.

Truth be told, from current sociological standards Satanism does not qualify as a religion, but that is only because those standards recognize "religion" and "spiritual" as being inseparable.

The Satanic Bible does not need anyone who reads it to believe anything. Either it is you or it isn't. You are your own litmus test.

And if anything most Satanists are amoral. The only "code" that is to be obeyed at all times is the law of the land, if for no other reason than rational self interest. What is good to one Satanist might be bad to another.

And I highly doubt Doktor LaVey or Magus Gilmore would ever refer to themselves as "prophets". That word reeks of religious insincerity and pomp not fit for the Alien Elite.
_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#404074 - 11/30/09 08:55 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: NapalmNick]
Original Sly Offline


Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 205
Loc: New Zealand
I salute you, Sir. That post, aside from the fact it is a point-by-point reply to another post, is comprehensive!


Edited by Original Sly (11/30/09 09:01 PM)
_________________________
"It stands to reason that where there's sacrifice, there's someone collecting sacrificial offerings" - Ellsworth Toohey, Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead p.637

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#404082 - 11/30/09 09:30 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: NapalmNick]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 995
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: NapalmNick
Sure, people can make decisions. But no one can change their nature. A person may dye their hair, but it does not change the fact that after a few months they'll have non-colored roots showing. Predisposition is a very real thing. And no, I don't believe in it. Science has confirmed certain patterns of behavior and attitudes are inherent.


Exactly! That's what I was trying to get at in my last post when I was discussing Satanism in terms of worldview. There is a deeper element here that is a fundamental part of who you are. It’s a part of your core being and to change that would literally mean becoming a different person; at least in the psychological sense. You might compare it to a personality type. It’s not just about conscious philosophy; it’s about who you are and how you approach the world on a fundamental level.

Agreeing with the philosophy is not enough to make a person a Satanist. I think that there has to be something more “instinctual” there as well.

Quote:
And I highly doubt Doktor LaVey or Magus Gilmore would ever refer to themselves as "prophets". That word reeks of religious insincerity and pomp not fit for the Alien Elite.

Hey! mad grin
_________________________


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#404084 - 11/30/09 09:38 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: John Prophet]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2153
Well, your reasons for using it are part of a creative persona for a specific and comedic purpose. But I think you already knew that I make such distinctions. wink
_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#404086 - 11/30/09 09:42 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: NapalmNick]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 995
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: NapalmNick
Well, your reasons for using it are part of a creative persona for a specific and comedic purpose. But I think you already knew that I make such distinctions. wink


Of course! smile
_________________________


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#404087 - 11/30/09 10:03 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Magister Nemo gives a great many reasons why Satanism is NOT based upon belief here.
_________________________









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#404114 - 12/01/09 02:59 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: NapalmNick]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
Napalm Nick, you've raised some questions that are of great interest to me. I copied everything below, and kept where you've quoted me in there. But, I've posited some questions along the way below your comments, in italics.

Originally Posted By: NapalmNick

To me, the word "belief" implies an assumption that is held on to with apprehension at its core. If someone has a set of beliefs, that is, a chain of treasured assumptions, this apprehension is magnified because if one belief is shattered they can all be shattered. I do not believe that the earth is round. I accept that is the conclusion which has been confirmed by science time and time again for several years now, and and if scientific study were to reveal otherwise, it would not go into a hissy fit over how "wrong" it was. Doubt has no shame in correcting itself.

There are several different theories and many variations of what is considered "belief" and how people "believe" things. Currently there is disagreement on the meaning of the words believe and belief. But what you have described for yourself is a rational approach to belief. You may want to check out Stephen Stilch, I'm sure you will find him fascinating http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Stich

Quote:
Belief that there is no God, is just another belief.

No. That's doubt, which is an entirely different thing. Such a statement is like the Christian fundies claim that "It takes more faith to be an atheist."
Belief requires one to shut out all other possibilities. Doubt does not. Doubt merely says things can be "more likely" or "less likely" depending on evidence. If there is NO evidence then you have NO reason to believe anything.

I thought that a satanist has to believe that God does not exist in order to be a satanist. Isn't that true? So doubt doesn't even apply here. Doubt is not certainty. Someone who doubts the existence of God may be agnostic.

Quote:
Belief that people are born Satanist, is just another belief.

I don't believe I'm a Satanist. I can clearly see that I am one by comparing my life with the criteria in TSB.

Isnt that the same as saying, "I don't have to believe in God, I can plainly see that he exists in nature (or in humanity, or in whatever)" Are you too making an affirmation of faith here?



Quote:
We always decide what we believe is true and what is not, it is an act of our free will.

In my experience, "free will" is largely a spiritual concept implying a supreme being who could control you, but who does not.

Actually free will is the answer to the fatalistic views of many religions. It simply had to be explained away by religion, and you used their explanation.

Quote:
Satanism calls itself a religion. That means it has a set of definite beliefs, and a moral code. It has sacred texts and honored prophets.

Truth be told, from current sociological standards Satanism does not qualify as a religion, but that is only because those standards recognize "religion" and "spiritual" as being inseparable.

I'm still trying to determine this.

The Satanic Bible does not need anyone who reads it to believe anything. Either it is you or it isn't. You are your own litmus test.

I think it's what the reader needs that is at question.

And I highly doubt Doktor LaVey or Magus Gilmore would ever refer to themselves as "prophets". That word reeks of religious insincerity and pomp not fit for the Alien Elite.

Well, you do use other religious words, like church. And the claim of being a religion is there, so applying religious nomenclature is not necessarily a bad thing. I meant no offense. But, there's no pomp in being a prophet. Prophets are often mis-treated, and killed. there are many modern-day prophets as well that you may agree stood for worthy things. I meant it as a compliment.


The rub for me is two parts. The religion part is one. I've been trying to resolve if it qualifies as a religion, and also, if it claims to be, could it be studied as such.
The other thing I'm really wondering and am trying to figure out from the title of this thread is this:

How do you know if you're a born satanist? Is it that the first time you read it you know it's true? What if you tried other religions for awhile afterwards, and then found your faith waning, would you still be a born satanist? Could one be a "born-again Satanist," to turn a religious phrase?

_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#404120 - 12/01/09 03:27 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2153
Originally Posted By: Übermensch

I thought that a satanist has to believe that God does not exist in order to be a satanist. Isn't that true? So doubt doesn't even apply here. Doubt is not certainty. Someone who doubts the existence of God may be agnostic.

There is no evidence, either physical or circumstantial, to even suggest that any kind of personal, external deities exist. There is no more evidence for an externalized God than there is for the invisible Gremlin sitting on top of my head. Because there is no Gremlin. The agnostic maintains that for some people there may be reason to believe. The skeptic maintains that belief, or faith, or whatever you want to call it, is completely separate from reason. To skeptical atheists, and by extension Satanists, the existence of an external God is highly irrelevant. I am my own God.

Quote:
Isnt that the same as saying, "I don't have to believe in God, I can plainly see that he exists in nature (or in humanity, or in whatever)" Are you too making an affirmation of faith here?

No. Recognizing oneself as a Satanist is a highly personal and subjective matter. But it is based on an objective document: The Satanic Bible. That book is very precise in its definition of what a Satanist is and what they are not. I recognize that I am one. You may not think I am real, but I know I am. "I think therefore I am"
Beyond that is the basic assumption "The universe is real and I can learn something from it", and the rest is rational skepticism. At least as far as I am concerned.

Quote:
Well, you do use other religious words, like church. And the claim of being a religion is there, so applying religious nomenclature is not necessarily a bad thing. I meant no offense. But, there's no pomp in being a prophet. Prophets are often mis-treated, and killed. there are many modern-day prophets as well that you may agree stood for worthy things. I meant it as a compliment.

I am a member, but I am not the Church of Satan. I am not a representative. I am merely expressing my opinions. The word prophet unambiguously means someone who is divinely inspired. Doktor LaVey never claimed divine inspiration.

Quote:
The rub for me is two parts. The religion part is one. I've been trying to resolve if it qualifies as a religion, and also, if it claims to be, could it be studied as such.
The other thing I'm really wondering and am trying to figure out from the title of this thread is this:

How do you know if you're a born satanist? Is it that the first time you read it you know it's true? What if you tried other religions for awhile afterwards, and then found your faith waning, would you still be a born satanist? Could one be a "born-again Satanist," to turn a religious phrase?

As I said, from modern sociological standards (at least those I am aware of) Satanism does not qualify as a religion because it lacks spirituality. However, the self applied label of religion is explained in TSB as being the combination of philosophy and dogma. Many people have already studied Satanism as a religion from an outside party perspective. If anything, I would imagine the CoS encourages this as it helps to dispel misconceptions.

There are many members, and even some in the hierarchy who saw themselves as belonging to other religions before recognizing themselves as Satanists. Like my hair-dye example, however, it wasn't really them. When I declared myself an atheist I realized that although I used to verbally say I "believed in God", I never really did.

The same applies to Satanism. Although it may look like a "new" perspective from a third party, it is actually a removal of blinders and a self-recognition.

I must reiterate that these are MY statements, not that of the Church of Satan.
_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#404158 - 12/01/09 10:13 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
I'm not sure this will be helpful, but it's all I have to contribute here.

Quote:
There are several different theories and many variations of what is considered "belief" and how people "believe" things. Currently there is disagreement on the meaning of the words believe and belief.

In English-language philosophy, there's a long tradition (going back hundreds of years) of using the word "belief" to mean, holding a claim to be true, or giving assent to it. In this sense of the word, Satanists do have "beliefs", because there are things we hold to be true.

The reason the word is defined in this way, is so we can distinguish between the content of what is held to be true, and the grounds upon which it's held to be true. Two people might hold the same belief (ie. give assent to the same claim), but one might have solid reasons for doing so, and another might not.

"Knowledge" is typically defined as "true belief with warrant", ie. you hold something to be true, and it is true, and your grounds for holding it to be true are sufficient to establish conclusively that it is true.


Edited by reprobate (12/01/09 10:14 AM)
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reprobate

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#404198 - 12/01/09 05:46 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Unknown]
asmodeus_frost Offline


Registered: 11/24/09
Posts: 26
I was raised Lutheran, which is Catholic Light. grin I remember catechism class very well. I recall all of the other boys & girls listening very intently & without question of anything the pastor was saying. I was the child who thought to himself - (mind you I was around nine years old or so) What a bunch of crap! They're telling me, a loving God created me, in his own image. Has a place for me to go & to be with him once I die. However, you're never going to see him, touch him, smell him, feel him (in a tangible sense), but if you don't believe, you're going to burn in the fiery depths of hell! Even as a child I knew this was bollocks. I asked a few questions during class, one of the classics being...

The Jews are his chosen people? Then why don't they believe he's the son of God? Why did they kill him?

As I got older, I realized to myself, that they must possess a 'get out of jail' free card, or something. Growing up though, in a household who preached this was still tough to shake. Everything up until this your parents told you, they had right. Why would they tell you this, with such passion if it weren't true? Then I got older & realized...because their parents did the same thing! Fear was instilled in them at a young age & they never broke through the chains that bound them to some imaginary character.

Later, in my teens I read a copy of the Satanic Bible & it all changed from there. My parents are great people, don't get me wrong. In fact, like I've stated in a few previous posts, they are my best friends, even to this day. We just stray far from religious discussion(s), because they know we're not on the same page, whatsoever! We now, agree to disagree.

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#404250 - 12/01/09 11:47 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: asmodeus_frost]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: asmodeus_frost
I was raised Lutheran, which is Catholic Light. grin I remember catechism class very well. I recall all of the other boys & girls listening very intently & without question of anything the pastor was saying. I was the child who thought to himself - (mind you I was around nine years old or so) What a bunch of crap! They're telling me, a loving God created me, in his own image. Has a place for me to go & to be with him once I die. However, you're never going to see him, touch him, smell him, feel him (in a tangible sense), but if you don't believe, you're going to burn in the fiery depths of hell! Even as a child I knew this was bollocks. I asked a few questions during class, one of the classics being...

The Jews are his chosen people? Then why don't they believe he's the son of God? Why did they kill him?

As I got older, I realized to myself, that they must possess a 'get out of jail' free card, or something. Growing up though, in a household who preached this was still tough to shake. Everything up until this your parents told you, they had right. Why would they tell you this, with such passion if it weren't true? Then I got older & realized...because their parents did the same thing! Fear was instilled in them at a young age & they never broke through the chains that bound them to some imaginary character.

Later, in my teens I read a copy of the Satanic Bible & it all changed from there. My parents are great people, don't get me wrong. In fact, like I've stated in a few previous posts, they are my best friends, even to this day. We just stray far from religious discussion(s), because they know we're not on the same page, whatsoever! We now, agree to disagree.


That's an awesome story man. Thanks for sharing that...
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#404254 - 12/02/09 12:10 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
There are many different images of Jesus. One is as the exemplar. He lived an example. But he wasn't tame. He challenged the Jewish religious order, and their power (see Jesus Cleanses the Temple for example.)

I wonder if Lucifer got a bad rap...since he was the angel of enlightenment. The Gnostics had some very interesting texts.

But Joshua was the Jesus of the NT, only with all the metaphysical accoutrements, thanks to St. paul, whose writings comprise 40% of the NT and yet he was the "disciple" who was a self-proclaimed disciple. He never fully qualified as a true disciple...(e.g. one who lived with Jesus for the three years he was in ministry) But his writings were adopted, along with Luke's and John's and Peter's and Matthew and Mark's. But one gospel sheds the most light on the historical Jesus, and he is nothing like the theology of Paul...Some say he is not John's Jesus either, and especially...
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#404257 - 12/02/09 12:33 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11565
Loc: New England, USA
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Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

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#404266 - 12/02/09 01:20 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Bill_M]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#404269 - 12/02/09 01:44 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: NapalmNick]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: NapalmNick
Originally Posted By: Übermensch

I thought that a satanist has to believe that God does not exist in order to be a satanist. Isn't that true? So doubt doesn't even apply here. Doubt is not certainty. Someone who doubts the existence of God may be agnostic.

There is no evidence, either physical or circumstantial, to even suggest that any kind of personal, external deities exist. There is no more evidence for an externalized God than there is for the invisible Gremlin sitting on top of my head. Because there is no Gremlin. The agnostic maintains that for some people there may be reason to believe. The skeptic maintains that belief, or faith, or whatever you want to call it, is completely separate from reason. To skeptical atheists, and by extension Satanists, the existence of an external God is highly irrelevant. I am my own God.

Quote:
Isnt that the same as saying, "I don't have to believe in God, I can plainly see that he exists in nature (or in humanity, or in whatever)" Are you too making an affirmation of faith here?

No. Recognizing oneself as a Satanist is a highly personal and subjective matter. But it is based on an objective document: The Satanic Bible. That book is very precise in its definition of what a Satanist is and what they are not. I recognize that I am one. You may not think I am real, but I know I am. "I think therefore I am"
Beyond that is the basic assumption "The universe is real and I can learn something from it", and the rest is rational skepticism. At least as far as I am concerned.

Quote:
Well, you do use other religious words, like church. And the claim of being a religion is there, so applying religious nomenclature is not necessarily a bad thing. I meant no offense. But, there's no pomp in being a prophet. Prophets are often mis-treated, and killed. there are many modern-day prophets as well that you may agree stood for worthy things. I meant it as a compliment.

I am a member, but I am not the Church of Satan. I am not a representative. I am merely expressing my opinions. The word prophet unambiguously means someone who is divinely inspired. Doktor LaVey never claimed divine inspiration.

Quote:
The rub for me is two parts. The religion part is one. I've been trying to resolve if it qualifies as a religion, and also, if it claims to be, could it be studied as such.
The other thing I'm really wondering and am trying to figure out from the title of this thread is this:

How do you know if you're a born satanist? Is it that the first time you read it you know it's true? What if you tried other religions for awhile afterwards, and then found your faith waning, would you still be a born satanist? Could one be a "born-again Satanist," to turn a religious phrase?

As I said, from modern sociological standards (at least those I am aware of) Satanism does not qualify as a religion because it lacks spirituality. However, the self applied label of religion is explained in TSB as being the combination of philosophy and dogma. Many people have already studied Satanism as a religion from an outside party perspective. If anything, I would imagine the CoS encourages this as it helps to dispel misconceptions.

There are many members, and even some in the hierarchy who saw themselves as belonging to other religions before recognizing themselves as Satanists. Like my hair-dye example, however, it wasn't really them. When I declared myself an atheist I realized that although I used to verbally say I "believed in God", I never really did.

The same applies to Satanism. Although it may look like a "new" perspective from a third party, it is actually a removal of blinders and a self-recognition.

I must reiterate that these are MY statements, not that of the Church of Satan.


thanks NN, that's a pretty hefty definition and I like it alot.. The only thing I have a question on is where you state:

"The agnostic maintains that for some people there may be reason to believe."

That is not the fundamental definition of an agnostic, in fact it's the first time I have ever heard or read of such an assertion. Just wiki agnostic. It's a decent definition, and short.

HS
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#404323 - 12/02/09 11:57 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Originally Posted By: Übermensch
That is not the fundamental definition of an agnostic, in fact it's the first time I have ever heard or read of such an assertion. Just wiki agnostic. It's a decent definition, and short.

HS


agnostic
1. a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.
2. a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study.

So technically everyone is agnostic to some extent. To claim that you aren't is to claim knowledge of all in all. Which seems to be a chekc that your ass can't cash wink :P
_________________________
You stay classy,Satans!

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#404340 - 12/02/09 01:35 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
asmodeus_frost Offline


Registered: 11/24/09
Posts: 26
Originally Posted By: Übermensch
Originally Posted By: asmodeus_frost
I was raised Lutheran, which is Catholic Light. grin I remember catechism class very well. I recall all of the other boys & girls listening very intently & without question of anything the pastor was saying. I was the child who thought to himself - (mind you I was around nine years old or so) What a bunch of crap! They're telling me, a loving God created me, in his own image. Has a place for me to go & to be with him once I die. However, you're never going to see him, touch him, smell him, feel him (in a tangible sense), but if you don't believe, you're going to burn in the fiery depths of hell! Even as a child I knew this was bollocks. I asked a few questions during class, one of the classics being...

The Jews are his chosen people? Then why don't they believe he's the son of God? Why did they kill him?

As I got older, I realized to myself, that they must possess a 'get out of jail' free card, or something. Growing up though, in a household who preached this was still tough to shake. Everything up until this your parents told you, they had right. Why would they tell you this, with such passion if it weren't true? Then I got older & realized...because their parents did the same thing! Fear was instilled in them at a young age & they never broke through the chains that bound them to some imaginary character.

Later, in my teens I read a copy of the Satanic Bible & it all changed from there. My parents are great people, don't get me wrong. In fact, like I've stated in a few previous posts, they are my best friends, even to this day. We just stray far from religious discussion(s), because they know we're not on the same page, whatsoever! We now, agree to disagree.


That's an awesome story man. Thanks for sharing that...


My pleasure. Thanks for taking the time to read it & respond.

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#404351 - 12/02/09 04:25 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: ArtAche86]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2153
I think the definition of the word agnostic, and the people themselves, are deliberately ambiguous.

Ambiguity has its purposes, but when it comes to these kind of arguments it's just a pain in the ass. So here's a video Reverend Bill M once posted in the humor section, and at around 6:45 it gives a good example of the difference between atheist and agnostic attitudes.

Notice how the atheist does not claim omniscience.

Also, it is important to note that the atheist goat uses the word belief to infer an assumption that is congruent to given evidence, not a synonym for faith.

_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#404375 - 12/02/09 08:14 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: ArtAche86]
WolfMoon Offline


Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 735
It is ignorant to say the answer is "unknowable" because it is not yet known. It very well may be "known" some day. "Unknowable" means it cannot be known, ever.

An atheist simply defines a lack of belief in God. So all agnostics are by definition, also atheists.

Some people think calling themselves "agnostics" as opposed to "atheists" is some kind of merit badge.

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#404402 - 12/03/09 03:13 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: ArtAche86]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: ArtAche86
Originally Posted By: Übermensch
That is not the fundamental definition of an agnostic, in fact it's the first time I have ever heard or read of such an assertion. Just wiki agnostic. It's a decent definition, and short.

HS


agnostic
1. a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.
2. a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study.

So technically everyone is agnostic to some extent. To claim that you aren't is to claim knowledge of all in all. Which seems to be a chekc that your ass can't cash wink :P


Claiming knowledge of all in all is precisely the claim every religion makes. Directly inspired religious texts are used as the basis of that claim, along with recorded visions and prophecies. People who believe it is true are not agnostic. An agnostic makes the opposite claim, that it can't be known. The atheist claims that God does not exist, which is a claim of knowing all in all in and of itself.
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#404412 - 12/03/09 07:29 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 995
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: Übermensch
People who believe it is true are not agnostic. An agnostic makes the opposite claim, that it can't be known. The atheist claims that God does not exist, which is a claim of knowing all in all in and of itself.


OK, but if that’s the case, then, by your definition, what would you call a person who says: “Alright, I admit that I can’t know any of this stuff for sure, but I’m going to go ahead and make a judgment call; working under the assumption that one is correct, because I’d like to move on and use these ideas productively instead of being an indecisive, philosophical fence-sitter for the rest of my life”? wink
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#404445 - 12/03/09 12:21 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: John Prophet]
Original Sly Offline


Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 205
Loc: New Zealand
That sounds about right to me!

Forgetting all the cold, hard definitions and analytical language you guys have been using, and if we apply this to real world situations, how many agnostic people do we all know personally?

I know a few people who claim to be "agnostic" and every single one is indecisive in this way. They don't claim that it's "unknowable". They're just too fuckin' lazy to spend any significant time looking at the evidence and making a decision.

But the common trait I've found in all of them?

They all use the term "agnostic" to describe themselves because they're scared of the other "A" term: "atheist". They're apprehensive and frightened by the term "atheist". "Oh no, no, I'm not an atheist". wink
_________________________
"It stands to reason that where there's sacrifice, there's someone collecting sacrificial offerings" - Ellsworth Toohey, Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead p.637

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#404452 - 12/03/09 01:41 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: John Prophet]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: John Prophet
Originally Posted By: Übermensch
People who believe it is true are not agnostic. An agnostic makes the opposite claim, that it can't be known. The atheist claims that God does not exist, which is a claim of knowing all in all in and of itself.


OK, but if that’s the case, then, by your definition, what would you call a person who says: “Alright, I admit that I can’t know any of this stuff for sure, but I’m going to go ahead and make a judgment call; working under the assumption that one is correct, because I’d like to move on and use these ideas productively instead of being an indecisive, philosophical fence-sitter for the rest of my life”? wink



I know some religious folks would call that faith.
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#404462 - 12/03/09 04:07 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
And just why should I give a hoot as to what these religious folks call faith?
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#404481 - 12/03/09 06:55 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Original Sly]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 995
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: Original Sly
That sounds about right to me!

Forgetting all the cold, hard definitions and analytical language you guys have been using, and if we apply this to real world situations, how many agnostic people do we all know personally?

I know a few people who claim to be "agnostic" and every single one is indecisive in this way. They don't claim that it's "unknowable". They're just too fuckin' lazy to spend any significant time looking at the evidence and making a decision.

But the common trait I've found in all of them?

They all use the term "agnostic" to describe themselves because they're scared of the other "A" term: "atheist". They're apprehensive and frightened by the term "atheist". "Oh no, no, I'm not an atheist". wink


Yes, this has been my experience as well!

I think that it’s important that we consider the practical functionality of these ideas; practice, as well as theory.
_________________________


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#404482 - 12/03/09 07:04 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: John Prophet]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8896
Aside from the fact that as a Satanist I am an I-theist...

I left the atheist/agnostic debate - forever - sometime ago - when I happened upon the perspective of theological noncognitivism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theological_noncognitivism

Once understood, it bypasses the whole galaxy of nuanced semantic piffle-poffle entirely, before it even starts.

I'm a "strong" atheist and quite secure in it.

Life is too damn short to waste debating how to split non-existent hairs on non-existent angels on non-existent pins.


Edited by Daark (12/03/09 07:09 PM)

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#404486 - 12/03/09 07:19 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Quaark]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 995
Loc: My suburban lair
As usual, Reverend Daark, you are correct! Thanks for the link; I had never encountered this concept of “theological noncognitivism” before (though ideas along those lines had certainly occurred to me). You are an expert at cutting through the bullshit.


Edited by John Prophet (12/03/09 07:21 PM)
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#404495 - 12/03/09 09:09 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: John Prophet]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8896
Theological non-cognitivism may be summed up in eight simple words.

"What the hell are you even talking ABOUT?"

coopdevil

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#404499 - 12/03/09 09:49 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Quaark]
rolandstgermain Offline


Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 38
Loc: South Carolina
Reverend, this sounds quite a bit like Ayn Rand's epistemological reason for not believing in God.

Matter-of-fact, that sounds almost empiricist.
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The mass crushes beneath it everything...that is excellent, individual, qualified and select.

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#404500 - 12/03/09 10:10 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: rolandstgermain]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8896
Theological non-cognitivism makes a delimited point in the domain of linguistics, pre-bypassing subsequent domains such as epistemology. The essential point is quite different from anything Rand said. There may be a similarity of conclusion, by different means of arrival, which does not imply a validation of Rands logic.

wink

It also does not presuppose the entire universe of claims made by (the various and sundry branches of) empiricism.

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#404581 - 12/04/09 06:06 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Quaark]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
Thanks for the link Rev. Daark. I'm going to examine that material. An interesting line of reasoning I have not heard before.
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#404793 - 12/07/09 12:03 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
I don't know, theological non-cognitivism seems to makes some claims of its own, i.e. that the notion of God is a nonsensical notion. I don't know about that. I would call it a fairy tale, or a fiction or a myth before I would describe it as something that cannot be described, and hence non-cognitive. Entire university libraries exist describing God.

I am more attuned to what Magister Gilmore said (and I hope I am using his title correctly), that actually believing all of those things about God or the supernatural realm is insanity, that people that really believe it are insane.

Religious people actually try to increase their "faith." They read the Bible, they read religious books, they go to church, they go to bible study, they pray for more faith (and prayer is a form of self-hypnosis). So they actually feed their insanity, and their collective insanity feeds on itself. Nietzsche described belief in God as "thinking oneself out of reality." That is precisely what these folks do.

Of all the things that Peter Gilmore said, and I had been reading his thoughts on the subject before joining this site, when he said these folks are insane, at first I didn't believe that. but the more I thought about, and reflected upon it, I really came to embrace that concept. Thanks Mr. Gilmore.

EDIT: I wanted to add Mr. Gilmore's quote, and I am honored to quote a man who I believe holds the most lucid and insightful contemporary view on the matter:

"My real feeling is that anybody who believes in supernatural entities on some level is insane. Whether they believe in The Devil or God, they are abdicating reason. If they really believe they are in communication with some sort of interventionist deity...you know, somebody can be a deist and think that maybe there was some sort of force that launched everything and now has nothing to do with it. That's not anything you can prove. It's also not a matter of faith. It's a matter of making a choice between whether there was something or there wasn't. I think maybe that is the most rational decision. I think science makes it look otherwise, but I don't think somebody like that is mad. But anybody who believes in some kind of existence in deity or spirits or anything that intervenes in their life is not somebody I hold in any kind of esteem."


Edited by Übermensch (12/07/09 12:39 AM)
_________________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#404796 - 12/07/09 12:39 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Magister Gilmore

High Priest Gilmore was elevated to the status of Magus upon becoming the High Priest of the Church of Satan.
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#404814 - 12/07/09 02:28 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Pablovilla Offline



Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 267
Loc: Victorville, California
There is an easier way to define insane and sane. A sane person gets along well in society, and an insane person does not. Every living human and many animals have charastics of abnormal psycology, and there is no one person or group of people that are more sane than everyone else.

However a good comedian years ago said that an easy way to define insane is that a person keeps doing the same action that fails each and every time expecting a different result.

Praying to god or some other diety that has never came through is a good example of this just as you had pointed out.
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Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result - Ben Franklin

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#404834 - 12/07/09 09:14 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Pablovilla]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Quote:

However a good comedian years ago said that an easy way to define insane is that a person keeps doing the same action that fails each and every time expecting a different result.


By chance do you know what comedian said this?

I took an introduction class for Rapport Leadership during the summer and they said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. So just curious where that quote originated from.

Thanks.
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#404886 - 12/07/09 01:29 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Unknown]
Übermensch Offline



Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 97
Loc: New York
I'm not sure where that saying originated, but I have started to think about the implications of Magister Gilmore's provocative assertion.

You can think about how religion makes people do insane things, like fly planes into buildings. I mean really, is there any better argument against religion than 9/11?

With that being said, I began to wonder if there was an entry in the DSM for religious fanaticism. As far as I can tell so far, there is not. In Christianity, the bible tells its followers to love the lord with all their heart, and with all their soul, and with all their mind, and with all their strength. Anyone who actually tries to do this, will become insane IMO. Any "true" believer is insane, and they should be diagnosed as such, and treated for it by a doctor.

I began to wonder if churches shouldn't be shut down, or outlawed, and followers diagnosed and treated. I know that sounds Un-American and downright communist but...if what Magister Gilmore said is true, shouldn't these breeding grounds of insanity be closed?

Seems we are headed off-topic now.
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"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." Friederich Nietzsche

http://www.satannet.com/ubermensch/

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#404938 - 12/07/09 06:21 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Iscariot Offline


Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 144
Loc: United States
Magus Gilmore...

And though I agree that true believers are, in some way, insane, how would one justify shutting down churches to the public? Christianity has the unfortunate clause built into it which allows it to cry "persecution!" when someone threatens their organization, and has the infuriating effect of bringing people back and cling to their church more than before. Even the most "normal" Christians become fundamentalists when they feel their faith is being attacked.


Edited by Iscariot (12/07/09 06:31 PM)
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"Much Madness is divinest Sense..."

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#404947 - 12/07/09 08:02 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 995
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: Übermensch
I began to wonder if churches shouldn't be shut down, or outlawed, and followers diagnosed and treated. I know that sounds Un-American and downright communist but...if what Magister Gilmore said is true, shouldn't these breeding grounds of insanity be closed?


In my opinion, the insanity lies within the people themselves, regardless of whether churches exist or not. Getting rid of the churches would get rid of some of the “learned” symptoms of this; but the basic need to believe would still be there within these individuals and would manifest in some other, equally irrational ways.

I think that in some ways, these people don’t want to be “sane”. I think that reality is just too frightening or generally unpleasant for them, so they retreat to their safer delusions (not to imply that this is necessarily a conscious decision on their part or that they have any real control over this reaction to the world).



Edited by John Prophet (12/07/09 08:09 PM)
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#404951 - 12/07/09 09:37 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: LordofDarkness]
S810 Offline


Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 326
Loc: northwest
Sounds alot like my own experiences with religion. My Father is a higher up in the JW's and oddly enough, he is a big part of my views as far as life and being a satanist. Im of Spanish descent and he used to tell me

"Mijo you must question everything in life."(meaning the government and what they call Christendom, another name for false prophets). and things like "You already know the truth, you just need to make it your own." which ironically are both very satanic in principal.

In short i say "you can put a bow on a shit sandwich, but it's sill a shit sandwich."


For me satanism is more of a blueprint for perfecting the human condition.

and really all this talk of belief and faith is really just semantics. You can see that no matter how you slice it, the word belief doesn't meet with fact, but is rather a word connotating perception.

I personnally think that faith is misused as well. For me i say that if my grampa picks me up from school everyday ,based on criteria i have faith and beleive that he will show up today, however that doesn't base it in fact up and until he shows up.

And as far as satanism qualifying as a religion, as long as the US government acknowledges it as such and CoS has the paperwork to back that up, well I would say that is a concrete fact.
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"Morality" It's a fickle thing, little thing,little thing. Depends on WHO, is your king, IS your king. -Fred A. Padilla-

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#404956 - 12/07/09 09:56 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: S810]
Iscariot Offline


Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 144
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: S810
For me satanism is more of a blueprint for perfecting the human condition.


I really like your statement here.

Although I would say it is more of a tool to be utilized than a blueprint. Blueprint implies there is a set structure which a satanist works toward. I see Satanism as a means for focusing and utilizing the strength inherent within the Satanist.
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"Much Madness is divinest Sense..."

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#404959 - 12/07/09 10:08 PM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Iscariot]
S810 Offline


Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 326
Loc: northwest
I can agree with that.

for me it was at times a blueprint. Due to the fact that in my youth I had alot of destructive behaviors. The blueprint was the house.

Once it was built i did some remodeling you could say.
_________________________
"Morality" It's a fickle thing, little thing,little thing. Depends on WHO, is your king, IS your king. -Fred A. Padilla-

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#404973 - 12/08/09 12:14 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: S810]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Or how about a map?
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#405006 - 12/08/09 07:18 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Übermensch]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
Originally Posted By: Übermensch
I'm not sure where that saying originated, but I have started to think about the implications of Magister Gilmore's provocative assertion.

You can think about how religion makes people do insane things, like fly planes into buildings. I mean really, is there any better argument against religion than 9/11?

With that being said, I began to wonder if there was an entry in the DSM for religious fanaticism. As far as I can tell so far, there is not. In Christianity, the bible tells its followers to love the lord with all their heart, and with all their soul, and with all their mind, and with all their strength. Anyone who actually tries to do this, will become insane IMO. Any "true" believer is insane, and they should be diagnosed as such, and treated for it by a doctor.

I began to wonder if churches shouldn't be shut down, or outlawed, and followers diagnosed and treated. I know that sounds Un-American and downright communist but...if what Magister Gilmore said is true, shouldn't these breeding grounds of insanity be closed?

Seems we are headed off-topic now.


It it not religion. It is the human nature.

Human insanity creates religion, not the other way around.

The idea that religion makes people go to wars, commit acts of terrorism and such is a fallacy. Behind every one of those acts there is someone seeking power or territory, religion is just the excuse. When a king wanted to conquer more land he could not tell his peasants "Go fight to fill my coffers". He said "Go fight for the glory of God".

History has also proved that suppressing religion doesn't stop the insanity, it makes it even more extreme.

Countries where religion was banned and all churches closed didn't become the reign or science and logic. People actually reverted to even more primitive forms of superstition, or invented new idols to worship. Because the problem is not in organized religion, its is in the way most human minds work.
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You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
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#405012 - 12/08/09 10:44 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Old_Pig]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
The insane need their institutions. The churches of spiritual religions are the institutions for the insane. Take away the institutions and you will see just how crazy they really are.


Edited by Unknown (12/08/09 11:46 AM)
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#408098 - 01/09/10 12:31 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: John Prophet]
Tapio Offline


Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 25
Loc: Gothenburg, Sweden
Oh, well thank you. I see your point and it´s welltaken.
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Not evolving is dying

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#408131 - 01/09/10 07:20 AM Re: The evidence of myself as a born Satanist [Re: Tapio]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 995
Loc: My suburban lair
If it provided any new insights at all, then I am glad. smile
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