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#404789 - 12/06/09 11:25 PM New member (of the site) with many questions
Gardener_01 Offline


Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 6
Loc: KY, USA
Greetings to all. I just joined the site and posted my introduction about 20 minutes ago, but I hope a few questions won't be out of order.

My first and biggest concern with the Laveyan line of thought is spirituality. I am not an athiest, and certainly not a nihilist. (Well, not a complete one, anyway.) I do believe that there is an unseen order to the world; though, as cliche as it may sound, I don't believe any religion has completely figured it out yet -- Satanism included.

I have had many religious experiences in my life -- some in Xianity, some in meditation, some induced by drugs, and some in Satanism -- and I hardly think they can be dismissed. While they may be scientifically explainable, I still believe that we have a higher aspect to ourselves than merely a physical one. My first question, then, is this: Can one justify a sense of spirituality with Satanism?


Secondly, I find joy in charity. I do think it foolish to put oneself in poverty so that others may escape their own, and I have nothing but contempt for psychic vampires, but I believe man's only salvation can be found through cooperation. Is it against the Satanic creed to put loose change in the Salvation Army's coffers, to join Amnesty International or the Peace Corps, or to help little old ladies across the street? Could these acts not serve as a form of indulgence?


Thirdly, I'm sure this is not the first time this question has been asked, but I'm afraid I must. I understand that people need to make a living, but why the $200 requirement to become a member? I would have less reservations about joining if that were not the case. That is far beyond my means right now as a college student, as I only have about $200 to my name as it is.


I mean no disrespect by these questions, so please do not take them as such. I am a curious soul who often gets himself into trouble by extensive inquiry. Please understand that my intention is to learn, not to confront.

Pax Satanas
_________________________
"Life is the one great indulgence; death the one great abstinence."

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#404792 - 12/06/09 11:57 PM Re: New member (of the site) with many questions [Re: Gardener_01]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10555
Loc: England
>> I am not an athiest, and certainly not a nihilist. (Well, not a complete one, anyway.) I do believe that there is an unseen order to the world; though, as cliche as it may sound, I don't believe any religion has completely figured it out yet -- Satanism included.
I have had many religious experiences in my life -- some in Xianity, some in meditation, some induced by drugs, and some in Satanism -- and I hardly think they can be dismissed. While they may be scientifically explainable, I still believe that we have a higher aspect to ourselves than merely a physical one. <<


You are in the wrong place.

If Satanism doesn't resonate with you, it isn't for you. Simple as that. Your own path lies elsewhere.

But these boards are for those people who have already read The Satanic Bible and found themselves within its pages.

There really is no need to even go any further and address any more of your questions - you simply don't get it. Good luck, though, in finding your own personal fulfillment.
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#404798 - 12/07/09 12:57 AM Re: New member (of the site) with many questions [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Gardener_01 Offline


Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 6
Loc: KY, USA
That seems a shame, as so many of its other aspects do resonate with me strongly.

Have you not ever had what you thought was a genuine spiritual experience? Do you meditate, or attempt nonverbal communication with a being other than yourself? What do you think could explain the experiences I have had? Could they be scientifically explainable?

Furthermore, what are the Enochian Keys, or any of the rituals, if not spiritual acts, both internal and external?

Most importantly...Am I still welcome at this board? I value it as a resource of qualified Satanic authorities, and I hope I am not banned.

Again, I mean no disrespect.
_________________________
"Life is the one great indulgence; death the one great abstinence."

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#404800 - 12/07/09 01:15 AM Re: New member (of the site) with many questions [Re: Gardener_01]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10555
Loc: England
>> Have you not ever had what you thought was a genuine spiritual experience? Do you meditate, or attempt nonverbal communication with a being other than yourself? What do you think could explain the experiences I have had? Could they be scientifically explainable?
Furthermore, what are the Enochian Keys, or any of the rituals, if not spiritual acts, both internal and external?
Most importantly...Am I still welcome at this board? <<

I don't know what could explain the experiences you have had. Perhaps drug use would contribute to your befuddlement; you have stated that you use drugs.

As I have said, Satanists naturally resonate with the tenets espoused in The Satanic Bible.

It is clear that for you, it does not.

I am not saying that you do mean disrespect. Nor is it a question of you being welcome. You are just clearly in the wrong place. Not just these forums but, more importantly for you, in your quest for self-understanding.

I am not a moderator. But I would guess that if you do not leave of your own accord, yes - you will most likely end up being banned.



_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#404801 - 12/07/09 01:35 AM Re: New member (of the site) with many questions [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Gardener_01 Offline


Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 6
Loc: KY, USA
Perhaps I should word myself differently.

A few weeks ago, my interest in Satanism was strengthened when I performed what I thought of as a lust ritual. I didn't particularly want to have sex with this person, but I missed her very much, so I called out to her in a ritualistic setting (black robe, black candles, recitations of the Satanic Bible, etc.), trying to resonate the message: "I want your friendship." A few days later, she called me, and our friendship remains to this day. This ritual was not laid out specifically in the Satanic Bible, as it was more of a self-fashioned setting and practice. But I believe it worked nonetheless.

What kind of experience would you call this?

I simply want to remain open to new experiences, and if being a Satanist means I am closed to anything, spiritual or not, then I agree that this is not the place for me.

I recall LaVey writing on the sense of wonderment necessary for human beings. If we close off even the possibility of a spiritual experience, would this not close the sense of wonderment I have when in a meditative state, searching for a spark of anything otherworldly? If contact with another being is not even considered possible, is this not a denial or a sabotage of the sense of wonderment LaVey spoke of? I just read an article by Magister "Nemo" on the nature of skepticism, in that skeptics do not assume they already know everything about the universe and human potential, but rather the opposite, in that they try to remain open to new information while scrutinizing it with doubt.

http://www.satannet.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=401225#Post401225

This was the impression I had from reading the Bible myself, though the modern CoS seems to take a different stance.

P.S. I have used drugs to induce a spiritual state, but I have had these kinds of experiences long before I even touched a drug of any kind, and during moments of sobriety, as well. I am aware of the CoS' point of view on drugs.
_________________________
"Life is the one great indulgence; death the one great abstinence."

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#404803 - 12/07/09 01:44 AM Re: New member (of the site) with many questions [Re: Gardener_01]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10555
Loc: England
Time's up!

I have things to do, people to see, life achievements to be pursued.

You also mentioned you like helping The Salvation Army - go and try them.

_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#404805 - 12/07/09 01:46 AM Re: New member (of the site) with many questions [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Gardener_01 Offline


Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 6
Loc: KY, USA
I understand. Thank you for your time.

If anyone else can offer their opinion, it would be much appreciated.
_________________________
"Life is the one great indulgence; death the one great abstinence."

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#404818 - 12/07/09 02:46 AM Re: New member (of the site) with many questions [Re: Gardener_01]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8236
Simply put, Satanism is not a spiritual religion. A thorough reading and understanding of The Satanic Bible, and other works by Dr. LaVey demonstrates this.

Satanic Statement #2, page 25, The Satanic Bible: Satan represents vital existence, instead of spiritual pipe dreams!

You keep mentioning spirituality as a cause for things you have experienced. You seem to seek a higher power. This is not the place to do so. It is also not the place to ask questions that are answered by careful reading and understanding of The Satanic Bible, Dr. LaVey's other works, and the information found at the COS website.

A Satanist is his/her higher power. None to be found outside or elsewhere. But read my first and second sentence.

It is one thing to consider something possible, quite another when the evidence does not support that possibility.

From what you have written, you seem to have your mind made up that there is something "out there". Perhaps the pagan religions might suit you best. Not Satanism.

That you resonate with some or many aspects of Satanism is not unheard of. That just makes you a fellow traveler.

Joining the COS is not required in order to be a Satanist. Seeing ones self in every aspect of Satanism is.

_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#404837 - 12/07/09 09:58 AM Re: New member (of the site) with many questions [Re: Gardener_01]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11460
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: Gardener_01
My first question, then, is this: Can one justify a sense of spirituality with Satanism?

No. Reread the chapter "The God You Save May be Yourself" from The Satanic Bible.

Quote:
but I believe man's only salvation can be found through cooperation. Is it against the Satanic creed to put loose change in the Salvation Army's coffers,

As it says in the Satanic Bible, "Each person must decide for himself what his obligations are to his respective friends, family, and community." So no, there's nothing inherently unsatanic about being a philanthropist. However, if you harbor the general concept of "man's only salvation can be found through [fill in the blank]", then you clearly aren't a Satanist.

Quote:
but why the $200 requirement to become a member? I would have less reservations about joining if that were not the case.

Then I can only conclude the following:
1) You suck at math (200 divided by LIFETIME = cheap), and
2) You're embarrassingly ignorant of the simple fact that it costs money to run an organization. Where do you think paper, envelopes, mailing postage, letter openers, printers, file folders, ink, computers, internet connections, web hosting costs, travel costs, membership cards, and compensation for administrative duties come from? Pixies?

Quote:
I am a curious soul who often gets himself into trouble by extensive inquiry.

Great, identifying the problem is the first step. Now try using your meditation time to figure out why this keeps happening to you, and how avoid such "trouble" in the future. (Hint: look up the phrase "RTFM".)

Quote:
What do you think could explain the experiences I have had? Could they be scientifically explainable?

Yes. But I'm not going to waste my time interpreting other people's personal experiences for validation.

Quote:
I recall LaVey writing on the sense of wonderment necessary for human beings.

From the preface of The Satanic Bible: "Herein you will find truth -- and fantasy. Each is necessary for the other to exist; but each must be recognized for what it is."

Quote:
Furthermore, what are the Enochian Keys, or any of the rituals, if not spiritual acts, both internal and external?

Psychodrama. Boy, did you miss the boat!
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

(Wenn du Google's Übersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)

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#404846 - 12/07/09 10:37 AM Re: New member (of the site) with many questions [Re: Gardener_01]
Ygraine Offline

CoS Magistra

Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2849
Loc: Florida
Others have answered your queries thoroughly and without further need for explanation.

I, however, want to continue this discourse.

I am always shocked that people are shocked by the membership fee. I am one of the clergy members who consistently cry out for a larger fee. The fee does all the things mentioned by the clergy in the posts above, but it also serves the purpose of culling.

If you are in a position in your life where $200. will make or break you you are not yet in an appropriate place to ally yourself with the one true Satanic organization.

Sheer numbers do not impress us. We want those who have been so successful in their real lives that $200. is a large enough amount that it makes an adequate personal statement, but an amount small enough that it in no way harms the Satanist to join.

So a college student may not be ready to join financially but that also implies that they are not ready to join intellectually/philosophically/successfully.

Getting someone's cash and being stuck with them for an eternity means nothing if the member happens to be an asshole. The ability to happily part with $200. is one criteria, among many, that helps the hierarchy comprehend the potential member.

Then there is the point of us knowing what a great thing we've got. Really.

For us to hear someone gripe about the thing that brought us such joy, wonder, and happiness, is just insulting. Had I known what I would get for my money well over a decade ago, I would have gladly paid quadruple or more than what I paid to join.

As for charity, I too am of a charitable persuasion and you'll note the little title thingy under my name and see that obviously it did not hurt my standing with the CoS. My rules are simple: I help those who through no fault of their own! find themselves in dire straits. Animals & children leap to mind. I do not, however, do things that will simply extend suffering for generations (ie. Darfur.)

As far as spirituality goes...why does it matter to you to call these experiences spiritual or to see them as coming from outside yourself?

Using drugs for mystical purposes is lame. It erases any chance that the experience is mystical

Y~
_________________________
Magistra, Church of Satan/
Autocrat of the Damned





http://magistrayrainetwo.blogspot.com/

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#404865 - 12/07/09 12:36 PM Re: New member (of the site) with many questions [Re: Ygraine]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12407
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
I wanted to add to this discourse continuation suggested by Magistra Ygraine, with whom I am in complete agreement.

You come here dripping wet from the ocean of cultural beliefs that form the glop term called "spirituality". You are not alone. Many do. I will try to offer you a towel:

"Spirituality" means many things to many people - especially those who shy away from the dictionary but seek to redefine words based on emotional and cultural osmosis.

"Otherworldliness" is a common synonym for "spirituality".

Satanism is entirely interested in this world, your world, the world all of us live in. Not some "other" world that may or may not even exist.

You can substitute the word "reality" if you wish.

Do we already know everything about reality? Of course not.

However since Satanism is entirely oriented to this world, to reality, pragmatism rules over any interests we have in things that seem to not be of this world.

I like to think of Satanism as an engineering religion. We see the world as a set of tools we can use for our own selfish enjoyment and survival. We also enjoy mysteries and puzzles like anyone but these are not ends in themselves.

Everything is viewed as an end for yourself as a Satanist.

You do not need me to point out how most other religions are not dedicated to the individual in this world. They may seek to have you "saved" to live after death in a heaven somewhere ("otherworldly") or to crush or remove your ego now so that you "live in the world but are not of it" ("otherworldly").

But Satanists are dedicated to this world.

That includes all of its mysteries.

It does not, however, include treating respectfully all of the beliefs people have about these mysteries.

Just as the mythical figure of Satan declared himself to be God and rebelled against the oppressive heavenly hierarchy in the fictional stories of Judeo-Islamic-Christianity, the Satanist sees himself as the center of the universe and considers nothing more important than this real world, the world he lives in.

It is a very unique perspective and, as I mentioned before, difficult to understand if you continue to look at it from the "spiritual" ("otherworldly") perspective.

We don't pretend to already know everything.

But we know better than to just believe something because others say so.

I hope this helps.

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#404891 - 12/07/09 02:20 PM Re: New member (of the site) with many questions [Re: Nemo]
Gardener_01 Offline


Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 6
Loc: KY, USA
Thank you, Magister Nemo. From the few posts of yours that I had read, I was hoping that you would offer your insight. It was helpful. Furthermore, yours was the only post that did not make me feel antagonized for mere curiosity.

I am frustrated by the failure of communication here. Not once have I mentioned "higher power" or "god" in any of my posts. If the members here are too defensive to withstand simple questioning, then I have nothing more to gain by being here. Several explanations exist for what has happened in my life, ie quantum physics, telepathy, extraterrestrial activity, or simply the power of my own mind. I just wanted the insight of others here to perhaps find another explanation.

To Bill_M: If inquiry is something that you are uncomfortable with, I hardly see how you can call yourself a Satanist. I thought here of all places would welcome that.

I can see now that Reverend Strongbone was correct: this is not the place for me. I am young and wide-eyed, and many, if not most, of the word's philosophies and religions remain largely unexplored for me. I feel an intellectual duty to look into as many as possible before I devote myself to one, including Satanism. It's not so much that I disagree with the statements made here, but more as I am simply not ready for Satanism. Perhaps one day I will be.

Until then, I bid you all farewell. Thank you all for your replies, vitriolic though they may have been.


Edited by Gardener_01 (12/07/09 02:32 PM)
_________________________
"Life is the one great indulgence; death the one great abstinence."

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#404894 - 12/07/09 02:46 PM Re: New member (of the site) with many questions [Re: Gardener_01]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8236
Awwww, poor, predictable baby.

The mask is off. You are what you are.

Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.

skull
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#404897 - 12/07/09 02:57 PM Re: New member (of the site) with many questions [Re: Ygraine]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11460
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: Ygraine
I am always shocked that people are shocked by the membership fee. [...] For us to hear someone gripe about the thing that brought us such joy, wonder, and happiness, is just insulting. Had I known what I would get for my money well over a decade ago, I would have gladly paid quadruple or more than what I paid to join.

I actually sat down to do the math, and even adjusting for the current fee, I've worked out that my membership so far has cost me about $1.38 per month. I spend over three times that amount for AAA membership, and I've never had to call them for a tow. Hell, the bottled drink I buy on my lunch hour usually costs more than $1.38.

When I think of all of those things made possible through my COS membership: the incredible individuals I've met, the friendships I've made, the group rituals, the parties, the projects I've created, other members' projects I've gotten enjoyment from (artwork, free message boards, zines, books, free radio programs, etc.)...I have to laugh at people who think the fee is too much. I can only imagine that they've never paid for anything that didn't involve a counter and a cash register.

Quote:
Using drugs for mystical purposes is lame. It erases any chance that the experience is mystical

Not to mention the fact that drugs largely render people powerless over their own emotions. And if you can't focus your emotions in the ritual chamber, then there's really no point. Of course there are a host of other reasons why drugs are self-defeating, but I digress.
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

(Wenn du Google's Übersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)

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#404903 - 12/07/09 03:14 PM Re: New member (of the site) with many questions [Re: Gardener_01]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11460
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: Gardener_01
To Bill_M: If inquiry is something that you are uncomfortable with, I hardly see how you can call yourself a Satanist. I thought here of all places would welcome that.

You said "extensive inquiry". As with any field of study, there's a difference between asking well-thought questions, and bugging people for answers. Hence the expression in the engineering industry "RTFM". The fact that you can't tell the difference and that I don't feel like taking you by the wrist on everything, does not make me any less of a Satanist.

This isn't really the place to ask questions whose answers are already very clear-cut in The Satanic Bible or the Church of Satan website. We already have to answer that stuff time and time again on radio, newspaper, and television interviews. Many of us come to message boards like this to get away from all of that, and be with our own kind.

Yes, it's good to ask questions and gain knowledge. But ironically your questions give me the impression that you're not really interested in learning, and instead you feel entitled to have answers handed to you.

Quote:
It's not so much that I disagree with the statements made here, but more as I am simply not ready for Satanism. Perhaps one day I will be.

Don't hold your breath!
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

(Wenn du Google's Übersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)

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#404914 - 12/07/09 03:48 PM Re: New member (of the site) with many questions [Re: Bill_M]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
That was funny!

I've been affiliated for 17 years. The original $100 lifetime membership fee breaks down to 49 cents per month!

I just paid $2.00 for a cup of coffee - I drank four months membership worth of coffee in about five minutes!
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#404916 - 12/07/09 03:50 PM Re: New member (of the site) with many questions [Re: Gardener_01]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Ask yourself this; what "sense of spirituality" have you ever experienced that could not be attributed to your subjective experience of your own central nervous system?

"Because it feels like it" is not a "scientific" explanation.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#404926 - 12/07/09 04:23 PM Re: New member (of the site) with many questions [Re: Bill_M]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
Besides the thorough responses already in this thread, far more thorough than the original question deserved given the tone adopted, this is exactly the case.

Doing the math on my own membership duration, I've paid 98¢ per month. Typing on LttD, unless you are doing so from a public location and do not have home internet, implies that you pay more than that per day for internet access. In fact I cannot think of a single expense that is so low, especially considering how fruitful it has been.

Nevermind the fact that as a CoS member I've received well in excess of my membership fee in gifts from fellow members purely out of goodwill and friendship, to say nothing of shared information which, while not assigned a monetary value, has been worth well in excess of the membership fee. This is not to say that by joining you should expect to get free shit, but rather that you get what you put into it.

To compare, lifetime membership in the NRA is $750 (even the senior citizen and disabled veteran rates are $375). I'm not aware of any worthwhile organizations offering lifetime membership for a mere $200.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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