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#405031 - 12/08/09 03:44 PM Lesbian Satanists
Ms. Harlot Offline


Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 49
Loc: Austin, TX
I do realize that there's another thread for Gay Satanists, but my thoughts aren't quite in the same context.

I've been reading LaVey's The Satanic Witch. I'm not finished yet, but I did peek ahead at the section "The Lesbian Witch" in the Bitchcraft chapter. I realize that since I haven't finished, I'm not quite as informed as I could be, but I do have some questions about what I have read. Please correct me if you feel I'm interpreting it wrong.

LaVey suggests that the lesbian Satanist should use a straight man's fascination with lesbians against him to benefit herself. I have been guilty of that; I'm naturally flirtatious with people of either sex.

My question is about the general philosophy concerning that. If society is generally heterocentric, isn't it somewhat detrimental to the perception of the lesbian Satanist's strength to give further evidence, no matter how small, that she is convertible?

It's already expected of her. The media generally portrays lesbians as just needing a man in their lives.

I know that in my own life, I have used the novelty of my orientation to get what I wanted. I used to be a cocktail waitress, and I would flirt with my female patrons in front of their husbands to get them excited. That would usually get me bigger tips.

I would often encounter men who would buy me drinks to get me to flirt with them and their wives. I would take their money and ask the bartender to make me virgin drinks, so I encouraged it. There was an occasion in which, because I had teased him and his wife, a drunken man attempted to assault me when I refused to go home with them. Thankfully the bartender was protective and kicked them out. In hindsight, I'm actually horrified about how stupid I was to be so incautious, but that was almost five years ago.

My point is that by "enchanting" others with her sexuality, a woman (and I'm realizing that this post can be broader than lesbians) can actually be at risk to being used or hurt herself.

I would very much like to hear your opinions and be corrected if I'm in the wrong train of thought.


Edited by Ms. Harlot (12/08/09 07:13 PM)
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#405037 - 12/08/09 04:20 PM Re: Lesbian Satanists [Re: Ms. Harlot]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
Quote:
My point is that by "enchanting" others with her sexuality, a woman (and I'm realizing that this post can be broader than lesbians) can actually be at risk to being used or hurt herself


I would argue that reconciling with your own sexuality, and subsequently your sexual power over others, is part of the Satanic approach to understanding yourself.

It can certainly be dangerous when you are exploring areas that involve your physical or emotional weaknesses, but that's also just part of growing up, part of maturing as a person, and part of understanding where you are and are not willing to compromise your self.

I doubt there is a woman out there, lesbian or straight, Satanist or muggle, who hasn't had at least one incident where someone deeply resentful of women (and their sexuality) didn't threaten their well-being. Shit happens, how you deal with it is the most telling aspect of you and your self-understanding.

As for popular portrayals of lesbians, use it. I've certainly played up the notion of being bisexual many, many times. I've also played it down, omitted it entirely, and carefully examined how someone reacts to it as a gauge to their maturity, sexual and otherwise.

While using one's sexuality is not unique to women, the fact that it entails some very real physical dangers is where you have to exercise maturity. So, "responsibility to the responsible" comes to mind, where you recognize that foolishly brandishing hot FFM sex over some drunk frat boy is probably not the smartest thing to do. Frat boy sex is gross anyway. wink

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#405038 - 12/08/09 04:47 PM Re: Lesbian Satanists [Re: Zaftig]
Drakkar Tyrannis Offline


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 122
Loc: Maryland,USA
Originally Posted By: Zaftig
[quote]
Frat boy sex is gross anyway. wink


Well that depends ENTIRELY on who you ask. coopdevil

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#405041 - 12/08/09 05:10 PM Re: Lesbian Satanists [Re: Zaftig]
Iscariot Offline


Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 144
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: Zaftig
Frat boy sex is gross anyway. wink


Hey! mad
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#405043 - 12/08/09 05:52 PM Re: Lesbian Satanists [Re: Ms. Harlot]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2151
Originally Posted By: Ms. Harlot

LeVay suggests that the lesbian Satanist should use a straight man's fascination with lesbians against him to benefit herself. I have been guilty of that; I'm naturally flirtatious with people of either sex.

I've never understood why men think lesbians are "hot". The definition of that word means they aren't getting any. But I guess some men are more masochistic than they'd like to admit.
Go for it. If they're that retarded, use them to your every advantage.

Quote:
If society is generally heterocentric, isn't it somewhat detrimental to the perception of the lesbian Satanist's strength to give further evidence, no matter how small, that she is convertible?

No, it's only detrimental to the bi-hating paranoid lesbian community. The individual lesbian Satanist will do what she wants, not what they want. You don't have to sleep with men to have immense power over them.

Quote:
My point is that by "enchanting" others with her sexuality, a woman (and I'm realizing that this post can be broader than lesbians) can actually be at risk to being used or hurt herself.

Women are at risk of being physically abused every time they walk outdoors, or indoors. And it's not just women, but also men. Sometimes women are abused by other women. Same goes with men. As Zaftig said, shit happens. Hopefully you have at least some rudimentary knowledge on how to protect yourself in that situation should it ever arise.

But as far as "using" goes, here's my take: the point of Lesser Magic is to use other people. To get them to do precisely what you want them to, no more, no less. It may even involve situations where for all appearances you look like you're being used, but in reality you are in complete control of the situation. Most people are fairly easy to use. They have their instruction manual tattooed on their sleeves. grin

People are going to judge you based on any number of things. For a lesbian the two most obvious ones are sex and sexual orientation. Quite frankly I think the whole "sexual orientation" thing is a bunch of crap, but that's just my opinion and wouldn't really help in any way here.
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#405051 - 12/08/09 07:11 PM Re: Lesbian Satanists [Re: NapalmNick]
Ms. Harlot Offline


Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 49
Loc: Austin, TX
Thank you Zaftig and NapalmNick!

I guess I am a little biased due to my experiences. I do still use this small aspect of my identity to my advantage, though I am a lot more careful with how and with whom I use it.

My copy of The Satanic Witch has an introduction by Dr. LaVey's daughter, Zeena. This is where I started after reading "The Lesbian Witch" section. She talks about how she used her father's philosophy and used her sexuality at a very young age and ended up pregnant at thirteen. No matter how she spins it or bounced back, it must have been very hard for her. Also in her introduction, she spoke of The Women's Movement and female androgyny with disdain.

I didn't realize before that Zeena is not in good standing with the COS until I did some further reading online. It had irked me that some of the other things she said in her intro sort of contradicted with The Satanic Bible. That combined with "The Lesbian Witch" had rubbed me the wrong way, but thank you for making it clearer for me. I'm way passed the Intro, and I'm enjoying the book (though I do disagree with his opinion on the Women's Movement).

I see a lot of the book has to do with women being aesthetically pleasing to men. While I do see how the things in TSW can give women great power, I respectfully wonder if Dr. LaVey (who, though a great man, was still a man) purposefully used his power over female followers to use their femininity and sexuality more freely.

Honestly, if I was in his position, I would have too. laugh
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#405053 - 12/08/09 07:35 PM Re: Lesbian Satanists [Re: Ms. Harlot]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Quote:
I respectfully wonder if Dr. LaVey (who, though a great man, was still a man) purposefully used his power over female followers to use their femininity and sexuality more freely.

Though I never had the honor of meeting him, I suspect he would not have been too shy to answer to the vigorous affirmative. Ulterior motives often accompany and even complement superior motives. wink
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#405056 - 12/08/09 07:45 PM Re: Lesbian Satanists [Re: Ms. Harlot]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8257
I see a lot of the book has to do with women being aesthetically pleasing to men. While I do see how the things in TSW can give women great power, I respectfully wonder if Dr. LaVey (who, though a great man, was still a man) purposefully used his power over female followers to use their femininity and sexuality more freely.

Warlock Reprobate has provided you with a plausible answer; keep in mind that The Satanic Witch, like Dr. LaVey's other writings, came about because of extensive observation and experience, among other things. Human nature has been on display for centuries. Those who deny this nature are bound to trip themselves up.

There is a reason why this manual titled The Satanic Witch , which contains the tools of the "trade", works. wink




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#405062 - 12/08/09 08:00 PM Re: Lesbian Satanists [Re: NapalmNick]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1812
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: NapalmNick
Originally Posted By: Ms. Harlot

LeVay suggests that the lesbian Satanist should use a straight man's fascination with lesbians against him to benefit herself. I have been guilty of that; I'm naturally flirtatious with people of either sex.

I've never understood why men think lesbians are "hot". The definition of that word means they aren't getting any. But I guess some men are more masochistic than they'd like to admit.


Or perhaps just as masochistic as they'd like to admit smile I've seen some pro dommes use the lesbian angle as part of how they market themselves.

So, for the submissive male it works out well, because it just makes his object of affection even more unattainable. Whether they really are lesbians or just good marketers is another matter entirely.

For the average male I think there is the fantasy of course of "turning her back", we all know "Goldfinger" smile But also I think that there is the idea that a lesbian girl would be "safe" to share your girlfriend with, while having a threesome with another guy would more likely lead to some alpha-male territorial thing.


I must admit that I've always preferred girl-on-girl porn to straight porn because it allows me twice the female content and none of that "hairy ass of some other dude" grin
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#405066 - 12/08/09 08:18 PM Re: Lesbian Satanists [Re: verszou]
Ms. Harlot Offline


Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 49
Loc: Austin, TX
Originally Posted By: verszou

Or perhaps just as masochistic as they'd like to admit smile I've seen some pro dommes use the lesbian angle as part of how they market themselves.

So, for the submissive male it works out well, because it just makes his object of affection even more unattainable. Whether they really are lesbians or just good marketers is another matter entirely.


Haha! I actually got to dom my friend's boyfriend at a recent play party, and he was all turned on by the fact that I wasn't attracted to him. I've considered going pro until I met a real pro-domme who told me some stories about the real creeps she encounters.

Originally Posted By: verszou
I think that there is the idea that a lesbian girl would be "safe" to share your girlfriend with


Naivety is so cute.



Originally Posted By: verszou
I must admit that I've always preferred girl-on-girl porn to straight porn because it allows me twice the female content and none of that "hairy ass of some other dude" grin



Four boobs are always better than two...and I get to take two home with me. wink


Edited by Ms. Harlot (12/08/09 08:21 PM)
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#405067 - 12/08/09 08:25 PM Re: Lesbian Satanists [Re: Phineas]
Ms. Harlot Offline


Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 49
Loc: Austin, TX
That is true, Phineas, thank you. smile
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#405084 - 12/08/09 10:42 PM Re: Lesbian Satanists [Re: Ms. Harlot]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10118
I have never viewed The Satanic Witch as a manual for actual sexuality, but rather for employment of uniquely female capacities for sexual appeal to get what they want.

For better or worse, men still hold considerable power and at the same time are usually easier to convince to abuse that power for the benefit of a female. I can see clear advantage to an honest lesbian pretending heterosexuality or bisexuality for personal gain. Without checking for page references I'm fairly certain he made clear that actually delivering on sexual promise isn't necessary, and often not even beneficial.

As for the women's movement, I do not in any way disagree with female equality, but in my opinion, and I think Dr. LaVey's as well, the absurd attempt to fit females into a male role has not exactly panned out so well.
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#405085 - 12/08/09 10:52 PM Re: Lesbian Satanists [Re: Ms. Harlot]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Quote:
My point is that by "enchanting" others with her sexuality, a woman (and I'm realizing that this post can be broader than lesbians) can actually be at risk to being used or hurt herself.


I have not read the other replies as of yet but obviously intelligence is a commodity when using manipulation. That's a no brainer.
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#405087 - 12/08/09 10:55 PM Re: Lesbian Satanists [Re: NapalmNick]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Quote:
I've never understood why men think lesbians are "hot". The definition of that word means they aren't getting any.


Well I do not mind watching two very sexy girls kiss and feel each other up but I would never kid myself into thinking that I'd get anywhere with them.
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#405090 - 12/08/09 11:10 PM Re: Lesbian Satanists [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Ms. Harlot Offline


Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 49
Loc: Austin, TX
Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
Without checking for page references I'm fairly certain he made clear that actually delivering on sexual promise isn't necessary, and often not even beneficial.


Yes, I never thought I'd actually have to deliver on sexual promise, but I disliked the thought of making some idiot smug by making him think I will, even after using him. However, I guess that's something to get over if it benefits me in the long run.

Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
As for the women's movement, I do not in any way disagree with female equality, but in my opinion, and I think Dr. LaVey's as well, the absurd attempt to fit females into a male role has not exactly panned out so well.

Actually after thinking about it some more, I've realized that he would have written his works near the beginning of the Women's Movement, so he may have experienced a much more militant type of Feminism than what I have studied. I've interacted with militant Feminists before...they're not very pleasant.
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