I do realize that there's another thread for Gay Satanists, but my thoughts aren't quite in the same context.

I've been reading LaVey's The Satanic Witch. I'm not finished yet, but I did peek ahead at the section "The Lesbian Witch" in the Bitchcraft chapter. I realize that since I haven't finished, I'm not quite as informed as I could be, but I do have some questions about what I have read. Please correct me if you feel I'm interpreting it wrong.

LaVey suggests that the lesbian Satanist should use a straight man's fascination with lesbians against him to benefit herself. I have been guilty of that; I'm naturally flirtatious with people of either sex.

My question is about the general philosophy concerning that. If society is generally heterocentric, isn't it somewhat detrimental to the perception of the lesbian Satanist's strength to give further evidence, no matter how small, that she is convertible?

It's already expected of her. The media generally portrays lesbians as just needing a man in their lives.

I know that in my own life, I have used the novelty of my orientation to get what I wanted. I used to be a cocktail waitress, and I would flirt with my female patrons in front of their husbands to get them excited. That would usually get me bigger tips.

I would often encounter men who would buy me drinks to get me to flirt with them and their wives. I would take their money and ask the bartender to make me virgin drinks, so I encouraged it. There was an occasion in which, because I had teased him and his wife, a drunken man attempted to assault me when I refused to go home with them. Thankfully the bartender was protective and kicked them out. In hindsight, I'm actually horrified about how stupid I was to be so incautious, but that was almost five years ago.

My point is that by "enchanting" others with her sexuality, a woman (and I'm realizing that this post can be broader than lesbians) can actually be at risk to being used or hurt herself.

I would very much like to hear your opinions and be corrected if I'm in the wrong train of thought.

I would argue that reconciling with your own sexuality, and subsequently your sexual power over others, is part of the Satanic approach to understanding yourself.

It can certainly be dangerous when you are exploring areas that involve your physical or emotional weaknesses, but that's also just part of growing up, part of maturing as a person, and part of understanding where you are and are not willing to compromise your self.

I doubt there is a woman out there, lesbian or straight, Satanist or muggle, who hasn't had at least one incident where someone deeply resentful of women (and their sexuality) didn't threaten their well-being. Shit happens, how you deal with it is the most telling aspect of you and your self-understanding.

As for popular portrayals of lesbians, use it. I've certainly played up the notion of being bisexual many, many times. I've also played it down, omitted it entirely, and carefully examined how someone reacts to it as a gauge to their maturity, sexual and otherwise.

While using one's sexuality is not unique to women, the fact that it entails some very real physical dangers is where you have to exercise maturity. So, "responsibility to the responsible" comes to mind, where you recognize that foolishly brandishing hot FFM sex over some drunk frat boy is probably not the smartest thing to do. Frat boy sex is gross anyway.

Well that depends ENTIRELY on who you ask.

Hey!

I've never understood why men think lesbians are "hot". The definition of that word means they aren't getting any. But I guess some men are more masochistic than they'd like to admit.
Go for it. If they're that retarded, use them to your every advantage.


No, it's only detrimental to the bi-hating paranoid lesbian community. The individual lesbian Satanist will do what she wants, not what they want. You don't have to sleep with men to have immense power over them.


Women are at risk of being physically abused every time they walk outdoors, or indoors. And it's not just women, but also men. Sometimes women are abused by other women. Same goes with men. As Zaftig said, shit happens. Hopefully you have at least some rudimentary knowledge on how to protect yourself in that situation should it ever arise.

But as far as "using" goes, here's my take: the point of Lesser Magic is to use other people. To get them to do precisely what you want them to, no more, no less. It may even involve situations where for all appearances you look like you're being used, but in reality you are in complete control of the situation. Most people are fairly easy to use. They have their instruction manual tattooed on their sleeves.

People are going to judge you based on any number of things. For a lesbian the two most obvious ones are sex and sexual orientation. Quite frankly I think the whole "sexual orientation" thing is a bunch of crap, but that's just my opinion and wouldn't really help in any way here.

Thank you Zaftig and NapalmNick!

I guess I am a little biased due to my experiences. I do still use this small aspect of my identity to my advantage, though I am a lot more careful with how and with whom I use it.

My copy of The Satanic Witch has an introduction by Dr. LaVey's daughter, Zeena. This is where I started after reading "The Lesbian Witch" section. She talks about how she used her father's philosophy and used her sexuality at a very young age and ended up pregnant at thirteen. No matter how she spins it or bounced back, it must have been very hard for her. Also in her introduction, she spoke of The Women's Movement and female androgyny with disdain.

I didn't realize before that Zeena is not in good standing with the COS until I did some further reading online. It had irked me that some of the other things she said in her intro sort of contradicted with The Satanic Bible. That combined with "The Lesbian Witch" had rubbed me the wrong way, but thank you for making it clearer for me. I'm way passed the Intro, and I'm enjoying the book (though I do disagree with his opinion on the Women's Movement).

I see a lot of the book has to do with women being aesthetically pleasing to men. While I do see how the things in TSW can give women great power, I respectfully wonder if Dr. LaVey (who, though a great man, was still a man) purposefully used his power over female followers to use their femininity and sexuality more freely.

Honestly, if I was in his position, I would have too.

Though I never had the honor of meeting him, I suspect he would not have been too shy to answer to the vigorous affirmative. Ulterior motives often accompany and even complement superior motives.

I see a lot of the book has to do with women being aesthetically pleasing to men. While I do see how the things in TSW can give women great power, I respectfully wonder if Dr. LaVey (who, though a great man, was still a man) purposefully used his power over female followers to use their femininity and sexuality more freely.

Warlock Reprobate has provided you with a plausible answer; keep in mind that The Satanic Witch, like Dr. LaVey's other writings, came about because of extensive observation and experience, among other things. Human nature has been on display for centuries. Those who deny this nature are bound to trip themselves up.

There is a reason why this manual titled The Satanic Witch , which contains the tools of the "trade", works.

Or perhaps just as masochistic as they'd like to admit I've seen some pro dommes use the lesbian angle as part of how they market themselves.

So, for the submissive male it works out well, because it just makes his object of affection even more unattainable. Whether they really are lesbians or just good marketers is another matter entirely.

For the average male I think there is the fantasy of course of "turning her back", we all know "Goldfinger" But also I think that there is the idea that a lesbian girl would be "safe" to share your girlfriend with, while having a threesome with another guy would more likely lead to some alpha-male territorial thing.


I must admit that I've always preferred girl-on-girl porn to straight porn because it allows me twice the female content and none of that "hairy ass of some other dude"

Haha! I actually got to dom my friend's boyfriend at a recent play party, and he was all turned on by the fact that I wasn't attracted to him. I've considered going pro until I met a real pro-domme who told me some stories about the real creeps she encounters.



Naivety is so cute.





Four boobs are always better than two...and I get to take two home with me.

That is true, Phineas, thank you.

I have never viewed The Satanic Witch as a manual for actual sexuality, but rather for employment of uniquely female capacities for sexual appeal to get what they want.

For better or worse, men still hold considerable power and at the same time are usually easier to convince to abuse that power for the benefit of a female. I can see clear advantage to an honest lesbian pretending heterosexuality or bisexuality for personal gain. Without checking for page references I'm fairly certain he made clear that actually delivering on sexual promise isn't necessary, and often not even beneficial.

As for the women's movement, I do not in any way disagree with female equality, but in my opinion, and I think Dr. LaVey's as well, the absurd attempt to fit females into a male role has not exactly panned out so well.

I have not read the other replies as of yet but obviously intelligence is a commodity when using manipulation. That's a no brainer.

Well I do not mind watching two very sexy girls kiss and feel each other up but I would never kid myself into thinking that I'd get anywhere with them.

Yes, I never thought I'd actually have to deliver on sexual promise, but I disliked the thought of making some idiot smug by making him think I will, even after using him. However, I guess that's something to get over if it benefits me in the long run.


Actually after thinking about it some more, I've realized that he would have written his works near the beginning of the Women's Movement, so he may have experienced a much more militant type of Feminism than what I have studied. I've interacted with militant Feminists before...they're not very pleasant.

From what I've noticed, the number of men who sincerely think they can "change" a lesbian is actually very small.

For me, watching "lesbian" porn never worked because there is no point of reference. I don't have a pussy. And in general, the dead giveaway that the actresses are fake lesbians is whether or not they have long fingernails.

I've realized that he would have written his works near the beginning of the Women's Movement, so he may have experienced a much more militant type of Feminism than what I have studied.

Bingo.

Then again, it CAN happen....

Some guys seem to like it when a woman professes herself to be a lesbian. Personally, I would much rather hear that the guy next to me is gay. If a woman is a lesbian, that's one less potential girlfriend. If a guy is gay, it's less competition for me.

While it's being discussed, I'd like to interject with a question regarding The Satanic Witch. I understand it's mostly tips and tricks for women; is there advice for Lesser Magic in it that could apply to men? I'm not very good at manipulating people, so I was wondering if TSW would be worth the read for me. Currently, I seem to present an image to people without even realizing it - the image being one of a very cold, stoic, and emotionless type, which, as far as I know, is not very conducive to persuasion.

I'm currently reading TSW and the core principles can be applied to males as well. Granted it is for women, but you can still learn a lot from it.

It can most certainly be applied to men. How you apply its principles depends on the given situation, and your own tastes, limitations, etc.

At the end of the day, it's all about knowing what you want and knowing how to get it. TSW is an excellent guideline for how, and it should not be mistaken as being "just for women".

[/quote]
From what I've noticed, the number of men who sincerely think they can "change" a lesbian is actually very small.

For me, watching "lesbian" porn never worked because there is no point of reference. I don't have a pussy. And in general, the dead giveaway that the actresses are fake lesbians is whether or not they have long fingernails. [/quote]

The thing is that some women say that they are lesbian but are really bi, this is due to the constant hitting on that they get from some men.

I know what you mean about the fingernails, as they like to keep them rather short for obvious reasons.

Although in one sense I understand your...reluctance, it is exactly as you say, a mere obstacle. What's worth more, his smugness or your personal profit? Besides, it doesn't necessarily have to be a predatory relationship. It's entirely possible for it to be the case (in some cases, not all) that he's aware you're a lesbian, does not realistically think he will bed you, but entertains the fantasy which you feed by being feminine. After all, for better or worse I "do the man thing" and help women without any expectation or hope of eventually fucking them. Wouldn't hurt my feelings if they did decide to "pay me back" porn movie style but it's not something I hope for.

Also, yes. When Dr. LaVey wrote the bulk of his work prominent feminists of the time were of the ilk of Andrea Dworkin and Catharine MacKinnon. What they propose was so bizarrely out there that, despite Satanism's apolitical stance, it would be rather difficult to even resolve their philosophies with Satanism at all.

On a less extreme note, feminism of the 60s and 70s decidedly featured a hell of a lot of women looking like men and bra burnings. The after effects of that are still around, and it still isn't very pretty (I made a funny!).

PS - I'm familiar with some of the more "liberal" feminist ideas that are gaining popularity today. Besides still not much caring for the name "feminism" I largely agree with and support many of the ideas, and think if feminism had started there rather than endure the bullshit of earlier decades we'd be considerably better off.

Thank you. My past experiences have fed into my reluctance, including the one I mentioned in my original post, but thank you everyone for giving me a new perspective on it.




I don't know, I still find gender fluidity in a woman extremely sexy, but that's just my opinion, heh.

Meh, it's like Satanism getting associated with Devil Worshipping. It's not your philosophy, but it happens a lot.

If there's one lesson to be taken away from The Satanic Witch it is that clinging to an ideal or some belief in loyalty to a "cause" should be discarded for personal gain. In fact, not only should it not bother you, but you can delight in it.

Dr. LaVey wrote in several contexts that he enjoyed seeing people profit by discarding expected norms, and doubly enjoyed the protests of "that's not fair!" So? The whole idea of Satanism is to get ahead of the game, to circumvent fairness and rules for selfishness.

As a relevant example, consider a woman who not only got a job but got promoted to a position of authority, not based on qualifications, but because she played up the boss and got hired on looks. To many, this is wrong and disgusting. It's unfair to other employees, and if you ask some folks, unfair to her for being treated as a sex object. But who is getting the salary, and who is going without the job? The ends justify the means, and cheers to her for using what she had to get what she wants.

It does not simply apply to women and inter-sexual relations of course. It's just one of the most common and most complex examples, and one that a great deal of the population can easily exploit for personal gain. It is not our duty to evaluate the "fairness" of it all, not ours to ask why, or to wish for some better world where everything was equal...it is ours to take.

It is not our duty to evaluate the "fairness" of it all, not ours to ask why, or to wish for some better world where everything was equal...it is ours to take.

A little addition to this, if I may.

Another PC phrase that is laughable, used by many, is the concept of a "level playing field".

Life is not fair, the field is not fair, it is survival of the fittest all the way. The field will never be level, no matter who tries to do what about it.

The achievers, the productive, don't sit around and whine about it, don't wait for someone to do something about it, they just go ahead and use their skills and talents to work with what they've got to get ahead.

I very much agree.

If she is really good, she'll also know enough not to flaunt it too openly, because once you're in a position of authority you also need the people below to be pushing you higher. And while you can deal with a lone envious backstabber, a whole department of them won't get you further.

I guess that's stratification among users of lesser magic

Pretty much ANY woman would be wise to use her feminine mystique to her advantage; straight, gay, bi, whatever. The wise woman will find this will, on the one hand, only get her so far; and, on the other, give her that extra edge. I am constantly telling my wife to prepare her ass off for company inspections, and then make sure she keeps the top two blouse buttons open. It works like a charm. As for being a lesbian; lesbians are common male fetishes. There is no need to try to figure out why. Just use it to your advantage, with all the wisdom your experiences give you. Personally, I have enjoyed the times such women have used their wiles on me.

As for your concern about your safety, learn self-defense, carry protection, and buy mace. That is something everyone needs to be concerned about, not just women. Anyone can become a target. You may also want to think about how far you can use flirtation. There are some women I can go to great lengths with, and others I know even saying hello can hit their obsession switch.

A little off subject, but as the conversation has moved to how you can use your sexuality as a lesbian I thought I would provide you with a trap to avoid. It may never happen, as you are a Satanist and not a norm, but effeminate men like me are out there to use homosexual women to our advantage as well!

If indeed you follow advice given and use your sexuality to get to a position of power, beware of the man that pretends to be homosexual to rise to the top with you! This is what I have done in one situation and went from peon to right hand man.

That is true. For me, it was more of a matter of pride than fighting a cause, like I refused to be seen as weak. But then I guess, as NapalmNick mentioned ealier, even perceived weakness can be acceptable if I'm the one ultimately in control and it benefits me in the end.



Oh yes, I'm still learning about that. I have been foolish enough to entice a stalker or two in my younger years.

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!
Funniest thing I've heard in the last 40 minutes.

I don't know why guys fantasize about lesbians. Especially when Bi girls are more fun... for both me and my wife.

I much prefer men, however I do have to say there is something to watching two women together. Maybe I'm over analyzing but there's a level of gentle yet powerful erotic tone to it when one takes out the male element.

By male element I mean the idea of doing such an act for the male's enjoyment. Men want to see women going at it with one another, and it's more about the action than it is anything else. When you take that out and examine the other factors, what's left are the women, their attributes, the erotic tone to it, and the overall femininity of the entire thing.

Some time ago I was watching a video of a photo shoot done by an art group called the Punany Poets involving just what I was talking about. I do have to say that it was one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen and even I was well aware of the erotic power that the scene possessed. Now I'm not sure if heterosexual men see it in this way or if it's to them just "two hot chicks getting it on" but the power of women being women with one another is something that's hard to completely deny.

I agree that selfish bi-sexual women have the capability to power thieve from anyone that doesn't understand the game.That is also sometimes a loss of focus in straight women which leads to wreckless behavior that usually affects others in negative ways simply because they play monkey see monkey do.Sincerely speaking I'm a straight dude and yes i love lesbian porn cause i don't like to look at other mens privates. Forbidden fruits are always best specially for straight men that like girls that are around 19-30 and are bi-sexual when u want.Usually being a Mac means that by the time the majority of bi-sexual chicks want to have a threesome it means she tries to shift things her way (most times unintentionally in order to get what she wants)so you can either go do it or drop her for another girl with the same ideas about sex and relations(play her), then by that time you won't really care about threeesomes cause you'll be doing girls that think they are bi all the time and deal it like i'm saying, so by that time you don't need a group thing and you can keep trust and confidence n yourself cause most time people don't tell you what they're thinking when they want something and need to first go thrue you to get it .It's better to be sincere and tell someone you wanna have sex with them(gaming or upfront) i feel cause the rush you get is like a cupid effect(erotic lust) if they do it right and the devil(man) will always know how to glamourise his witches from there.Basically what I'm saying is that You'll be preying on peoples' weakness and that is the real game for naughty boys and girls. Even sisters are good in my book for threes...lol.Game recognnize game.That's what it's about, maybe i'm just weird about this cause I grew up in that bay area so i've experienced and seen where all this push and pull goes.I get my feeelings hurt a lot less when I deal with it this way cause women know what other women want no question, but sometimes some women are straight and they are preyed upon by other power hungry women that are man haters deep down, usually those types are actually lesbians playing a withches game and playing the bi-sexual card just cause they are in need of a fullfillment of something that may not be as aparent to the victim or in this case the naive bi-sexuals that don't get how sometimes sexuality causes war between peoples lives.I love me some me, and a lot of good forbidden fruit on top.I'm actually pretty comfortable around homosexuality simply because I truly know what i need.Women are the greatest of all times in my book simply cause they know the game better then the majority of men. That's the order of things, and i love it.I learned at an early age that when you go to a strip club its better to get a lap dance with two at the same time

A friendly suggestion: break up your writing into paragraphs, following the rules of grammar and good writing, and more people will be inclined to read what you post.

I completely agree. Whether she be naked or dressed, lesbian or straight, a womans sexuality is very powerful. I'm so glad I'm a woman.

That's funny, because I actually like seeing two men together. I don't like the plastic type of gay porn. Armature "bear" type of gay porn is much more interesting to me. It shows these men who are seemingly the epitome of masculinity being tender with each other or just plain bending over and fucking each other, both of which are fun to watch.

My partner, who is a butch woman, has never been with a man, nor has ever had any attraction to men. She actually loves watching "pretty boy" gay porn from time to time. Go figure.

There's certainly a popular notion that lesbians are erotically and gently engaged in sensual acts, caressing each other for hours on end in a tender expression of sapphic love...



It's a bit of a distortion, I think. It's porn made for bi-curious housewives and people of more delicate sensibilities.

They are NOT watching the kind of kinky lesbian porn that I am, whips, chains, ball gags, and all. Definitely not.

Oh yes.... "Whipped Ass" and "Wired Pussy" for the win....

I think for most heterosexual men that watch porn,it is just one less dick to compete with,even though it is merely on a screen and they have about a .001% chance of ever being with the women that are on the screen.

And furthermore the only thing going through the typical male brain (lacking of blood supply,which has been moved to a pulsing erection)during this time is as follows:

"I'd kinda' like to put my dick in there. . . "

And I'm a heterosexual man, but I have never been big on lesbian porn.Everyone has their own thing.I usually don't discriminate.

Interesting. I've never thought of the male "talent" in porn as being some sort of weird psychological "competition". If anything, his presence makes my vicariousness into the situation that much easier. Unless of course it's the really bad kind of porn where all the guys have insanely huge cocks, in which case it's kinda distracting.

But I wouldn't say entirely unpleasant.

Now see..I find the women distracting in straight porn...at least the bad ones. Nothing worse then trying to see a guy in some movie and the woman is dominating the camera, making weird duck noises, gigantic fake mammaries aflop..

I'm not a fan of fake tits, either. To me they feel like medicine balls.

Some of the funniest porn is where it seems as though the man and woman are competing as to who can make the most noise. The guy is almost always the winner.

Try turning porn on, turning the volume up, and going into another room to clean or do busy work. If you're not watching, it's the most annoying and noisy thing ever. If anyone I had sex with made that much noise it'd be time to enlist the aid of a strategically placed pillow.

Errrm ... why would I want to do that.

If what your are watching doesn't provide the soundtrack you're looking for, then you're not looking hard enough. (or you need to turn the sound down and put a CD on).

Try replacing "porn" with "reality show" in that sentence

The kind of porn I like to watch generally has a soundtrack that is pleasing to me - why else watch it?

All that talk and no links ... that's just evil ...
you are bad bad girls ... wait ... that's not gonna improve my bargaining position

But to repeat what I wrote you earlier, the world is a lot kinkier than I thought ... yay!

Fun fact! Sometimes all a link needs is to be squished together and have a ".com" at the end! Oh my Dark Lord, that's AMAZIN'!!!

Teehee....sorry, verszou...but you did say I was a bad girl.

But all the Kink . com sites are great. If you look up "Behind Kink," you can find a bunch of free (and safe) documentaries about the fetish porn industry and kink in general. I learned how to fist properly with one of those videos.

Yes you are. I respect that in a woman

I have seen the site, just not the parts of it you mentioned. So to quote Willow "reaserch party, yay!"

"Research"...is that what you kids are calling it these days?

On the original topic, I was looking through all of the essays on the Church of Satan website, and I found Blanche Barton's "Satanic Feminism" quite interesting. I've been through the essay section a few times before and I'm surprised I haven't noticed it before. I felt much more informed with all of the wonderful replies I've gotten here, and this essay just took away any reluctance I had left on the matter.

Just watch how many hits (views) this thread gets based on the title of the thread alone.

Well, you are not alone in your reluctance regarding the dangers of flirting.

After my reply to you, I remembered that I had made a similar post after reading TSW - although I was not as explicit, fearing admonishment. When reading TSW I did think clearly, "Does LaVey have any idea how dangerous that kind of thing can be?"

That was three years ago, and since then many things have changed, both personally and with my understanding of Satanism.

In context, I now see LaVey's comments as stated with a full understanding of just how dangerous that kind of thing can be. He's advocating controlling a natural attribute. Control it, or it will control you.

It's not simply that women possess more sexual power in the general sense of social interplay, but also that Satanic women possess more than most. And any woman who's ever felt all her warning alarms go off (or worse) because of seemingly harmless flirtation knows how quickly some situations can turn. We become acutely aware just how precarious the balance of power is when faced with someone who is physically stronger, and how fragile the notion of "no means no" can truly be to someone who does not respect you.

And it's because it's also the most wonderful thing in the world to truly embrace who you are sexually. I also view LaVey's comments as encouraging a freedom of self, not promiscuity for his benefit (although if it helped... ).

What?

No pictures?

I clicked on this thread for nothing!

Zaftig, that's exactly how I was feeling, thank you. I had the exact same thought process this past week, and I feel much better about it.


Callier, this is for you, lol:

Congrats to that girl for getting her "red wings". . .