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#406260 - 12/19/09 02:31 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Iscariot]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12600
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
"Pessimism: The hidden expectation that God is out to punish you." -Nemo's Lexicon grin

Here in just 7 minutes is Kurzweil summarizing all of this:



And, oh yes...

"Optimism: The overt expectation that you might live for another 15 years." -Nemo's Lexicon wink

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#406261 - 12/19/09 03:59 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: John Prophet]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Originally Posted By: John Prophet
There’s no reason why a machine would need to be programmed with a desire for power or even a sense of self preservation.


I can think of one!

On the self-preservation front,imagine how great it would be the next time someone tried to steal your car stereo,if your car stereo beat their ass.

Imagine property that could defend ITSSELF against crime. That my friend is the future. And if I am to invest money into one of these cyborgs (an expensive endeavor I am sure)I want it to defend itsself against the criminal mind.


Edited by ArtAche86 (12/19/09 04:08 PM)
Edit Reason: Human Error (No Pun Intended)
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You stay classy,Satans!

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#406262 - 12/19/09 04:06 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
Priest Hagen von Tronje,

On point of the sorrow never passing, I am neither in a position to agree, nor disagree. I am fortunate enough that the people I care deeply about, namely immediate family and close friends, are all still alive. Still, I think the sorrow can pass--operate word is can, not does--but I will have to get back to you on that one.

Regarding the massive avenues of philosophical and emotional exploration that the topic opens, I 100% agree. In that regard, your observation that my examples are "cherry picking" is correct. I do not think I am up to the task of covering all that entails, much less in a post.

Would I choose to not die including by my own will?

Well, I agree that is not necessarily so easy a choice. That sounds a bit like a corridor to the perverted Christian idea that upon final judgement, God will give all the unsaved "glorified bodies" that cannot be destroyed, then throw them in the "fiery lake of burning sulfur". Does not exactly sound like the eternal life most would opt for, right?

I disagree for me. I will choose torment in the fiery, burning sulfur lake for all eternity than knowingly choose death. My logical mind tells me I must get used to it after a while, like the monkey cage at the zoo.

I just cannot fathom not existing.

Fortunately for me, I do not see loss of will nor lack of useful physical augmentation (or painful burning) being a condition of long, even eternal life.

Still, it is an excellent question. It is bound to get people thinking, and I highly doubt everyone sees it as I do. smile
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#406263 - 12/19/09 04:13 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: TheAbysmal]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Originally Posted By: Vitaeviternus
Fortunately for me, I do not see loss of will nor lack of useful physical augmentation (or painful burning) being a condition of long, even eternal life.


Something tells me Chris Reeves wanted to FEEL more than he wanted to WALK.
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You stay classy,Satans!

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#406265 - 12/19/09 04:36 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: ArtAche86]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 996
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: ArtAche86
I can think of one!


Okay fine, but when your car stereo decides to assimilate with you and you can’t turn it off; remember that you were warned. crossbones
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#406267 - 12/19/09 04:59 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: John Prophet]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Originally Posted By: John Prophet
Originally Posted By: ArtAche86
I can think of one!


Okay fine, but when your car stereo decides to assimilate with you and you can’t turn it off; remember that you were warned. crossbones


Touche'

But I wouldn't program it to do that. I'm pretty sure the companies who manufacture these technological miracles, wouldn't allow it to do something it wasn't designed to do,to avoid a lawsuit.That would be the smart thing to do anyhow.
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#406269 - 12/19/09 05:15 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: ArtAche86]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
I do not quite get your point, but I suspect you may not have gotten mine. Or, was it a joke?

My point is that more often than not, the difference between life and death is a choice. One either chooses to look both ways before crossing the street or one does not. At some point, one could argue that the choice between life versus death goes away. I feel for the poor person who, no longer able fight the urge to get away from the intense heat of his 20th story office fire, is left with the option of plummeting to his death from the window instead of burning to death. More often than not, however, people are not left with such painful options.

I choose to look both ways before crossing the street.

I choose to spend hundreds of dollars on vitamins and supplements and eat an extra daily meal of pills, powders, and potions. I could spend that money elsewhere, and I could certainly find more entertaining things to do than make my own sodium ascorbate. But, I do not. Instead, I go through measures that improve my health and hopefully prolong my life.

I choose to go through the cycle of success and failure in quitting smoking/tobacco/nicotine. I could just say to hell with it. It would be much easier and far less painful (at least now) to avoid nicotine withdrawal and just smoke. Sometimes, I do just that. Every time I light up, I am choosing death. Every time I resist the urge and even knock the habit for a while, I choose life.

I made many poor choices as a child and as an adult--and still do. Much of what I do now may not be forward progress as much as it is undoing what I have already done. But, these are choices, I think, that leave me better off over the long run than choosing otherwise or simply not choosing at all.

All this points to my primary hang up with Priest Hagen von Tronje's well posed question: Choice.

Chris Reeve may have wanted to walk, feel, or whatever else more than the other things when he was alive. Beats me. I never knew the guy. But, he was at least alive enough--before he died in 2004--that he could be happy for what he had, or sad about what he had lost.

Happy or sad, these are provisions that death does not offer. Last I checked, he had contemplated but not committed suicide, an option almost always on the table.


Edited by Vitaeviternus (12/19/09 08:04 PM)
Edit Reason: Rephased in past tense in light of Drimlybunk's observation that Chris Reeve (not Reeves) died.
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#406271 - 12/19/09 05:33 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: ArtAche86]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 996
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: ArtAche86
But I wouldn't program it to do that. I'm pretty sure the companies who manufacture these technological miracles, wouldn't allow it to do something it wasn't designed to do,to avoid a lawsuit.That would be the smart thing to do anyhow.


I know, I was just joking.

But of course when I said “self preservation” I meant it only in the sense that the machine wouldn’t allow you to turn it off under any circumstances or would try to kill you for doing it (like in the movies). The type of self preservation that you’re talking about would actually be very sensible and practical. I approve!
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#406285 - 12/19/09 07:02 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: TheAbysmal]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12600
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
On grieving and sorrow for those who die as we live on, we can look to what we ourselves have experienced as well as many others.

In Victor Frankl's book Man's Search For Meaning, Frankl offers the wide range of responses he observed first hand as a prisoner in Auschwitz under the Nazis in WWII.

His overall conclusion was that those who had found reasons to live would survive almost anything and those who lost such meaning died like flies.

Then we can look at survivors of such ordeals - situations in which sole survivors saw their entire families butchered.

Again, those who found meaning for living overcame their traumas while those who did not suffered for as long as they did live.

So there is wide variation in how human beings react to personal losses and Frankl's conclusions seem quite sound.

On a personal level if you have not lost human relatives, friends, children, etc., you have probably lost a pet, perhaps many pets. Does the sorrow and grief pass. Yes. Is it a uniform time period for each loss. No.

Again with all of these concerns about whether one can endure the loss of those who die while you live on, my advice is simple:

Live on and find out.

As I recall, Marcus Aurelius once put it this way, "Never complain about life. The door is always open to leave." grin

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#406286 - 12/19/09 07:15 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Nemo]
Mr. Obsidian Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 3120
Loc: Ohio
Quote:
it will not be an issue of "us versus them" as we will merge with "them", as we merge with our advanced information technology.


Exactly!

Every aspect of what we value as "culture" is technology: words, writing, music, video, art, logic, clothes, guns, etc., etc.
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~ Mr. Obsidian (JP)

Olio/Etcetera

Flesh and Bones
_______________

“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
~ Charles Bukowski


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#406287 - 12/19/09 07:53 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: TheAbysmal]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
Quote:
Chris Reeves may want to walk, feel, or whatever else more than the other things. Beats me. I do not know the guy. But, he is at least alive enough that he can be happy for what he has, or sad about what he has lost.

Happy or sad, these are provisions that death does not offer. Last I checked, he has contemplated but not committed suicide, an option almost always on the table.


Actually...

I can guarantee you he will never commit suicide. I also know for a fact that he does not want to walk.

Christopher Reeve (September 25, 1952 – October 10, 2004)
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'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#406289 - 12/19/09 08:01 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Drimlybunk]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
Oh. I guess it would have been handy to have checked those tidbits before I bit into the feel/walk thing.

Thanks. smile
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Refuse to die.

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#406295 - 12/19/09 10:14 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: TheAbysmal]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
I understand what you were saying.

What I was merely saying is that I am sure he would have much rather felt things (touch is a WONDERFUL SENSE) than to walk and feel nothing at all. If the latter were the ONLY choice then yes,if for no more reason than to live until such a time as technology could give us a fully functional artificial Central Nervous System. ("Bicentennial Man",anyone?)

Satanists don't commit crimes because they ultimately end in prison or death,both of which pull us from living life to its fullest capabilities.


I was merely saying that touch is a way that we experience much of what life has to offer us.Sight is a beautiful thing,but it would be a hard choice whether or not to live on at the expense of not being able to feel.It would be like being in a prison in your own flesh(synthetic or real).

I would do it,but I would sure miss all those tastes,touches,and feels.
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You stay classy,Satans!

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#406318 - 12/20/09 01:33 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: ArtAche86]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
Thanks. It seems I simply misunderstood you, and this clears it up nicely.

I, too, would certainly miss touch. Even Helen Keller had touch.
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Refuse to die.

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#406335 - 12/20/09 10:37 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Mr. Obsidian]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12600
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:
Every aspect of what we value as "culture" is technology: words, writing, music, video, art, logic, clothes, guns, etc., etc.


Precisely correct.

Fifty years ago computers filled entire rooms and cost millions of dollars to be used by an elite priest craft of a very few scientists.

Today no one thinks it unusual or weird to use Google to look up spelling, definitions, road directions, book reviews, you-name-it.

Using computers is an example of "merging" with our tools, technology - much as your other examples of tools.

Whether we use keyboards with our fingers, eye motions (like jet fighter pilots), or eventually just think instructions to physically internalized work stations, we have always extended our reach with tools.


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