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#407508 - 01/03/10 08:28 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: TheAbysmal]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12572
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Vitaeviternus, if I had read your post I would not have bothered with the answer I offered - which was the same idea.

Thank you.

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#407509 - 01/03/10 08:29 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Nemo]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12572
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
By the way this would be a great way to pay taxes but a terrible way to collect retirement benefits! grin

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#407510 - 01/03/10 08:31 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Nemo]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
Quite welcome, Sir.

If I had a nickel for every time I did that... smile
_________________________

Refuse to die.

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#407512 - 01/03/10 08:33 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: TheAbysmal]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12572
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Then I would probably go broke! grin

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#407516 - 01/03/10 08:41 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
TECHNO Offline



Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 112
Loc: -31.955658,115.859928

I like to think that the violence of human nature will benefit us if mankind ventures into a (possibly) hostile cosmos.

As for 'completely removing human nature', while it is not the point I was trying to make with my post I do feel as though 'human nature' is born from 'the human condition' as we know it today and for the past several hundred thousand years. If 'what it means to be human' is evolved then surely the nature of that new being could evolve along with its physical form.

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#407591 - 01/04/10 11:31 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Nemo]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Originally Posted By: Nemo
If I copy a computer program and install it in three computers and start them all up, which is the "real" program?

All of them are.

The brain is the program here,and the computer is the human.

But this all metaphorical.Think literally.There is and can only be one "you". There may be many like you,but only one you.
When your consciousness dies,it is over.Though many artificial consciousnesses may thrive and continue on carrying the memories you earned,they are not you.You are dead.
_________________________
You stay classy,Satans!

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#407626 - 01/04/10 07:06 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: ArtAche86]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12572
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:
But this all metaphorical. Think literally.There is and can only be one "you". There may be many like you, but only one you.


It is easy to be fooled by the primitive viewpoints of our current culture.

Try this.

At some point in the creation of identical human twins the zygote splits into two different "individuals".

At that moment in time if you called the pre-split zygote "Joe" then in the next moment after the split there would be "Joe" and "Bob".

From that point in time forward they would be and remain genetically identical but would each have differing experiences, especially after birth.

Identical twins are nothing more than clones.

You really can't have it both ways.

Either the body is a machine and you are your memories, or you must posit some "ghost" in the machine that is "you".

If we build another machine and install the same memories then that machine is identical to "you" or you must be referring to something else that is "you" - the ghost in the machine.

Either you are your memories or you are a ghost with your memories.

(By the way, to complicate things I would consider any such "ghost" as just being another machine anyway).

If you do not remember who you are, you are not "you" but only someone who exhibits awareness of the world around you.

We also have real examples of this with people who have gradually or suddenly lost all of their memories - amnesia victims.

If you doubt what I am writing here, go talk with one of those victims or any member of their family who still cares about them.

You are your memories.

If they vanish, "you" do too.

Therefore, if those same memories reappeared somewhere, "you" would too.

If those memories reappeared in multiple bodies at the same time (like my computer program example) then there would be multiple "you"s that would do so as well.

From that moment forward, each person would begin to differ from the others as each created different new memories, but unless you are suggesting that there is something else then there are only your memories.

If you can identify what that something else "literally" is, I am all ears.

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#407631 - 01/04/10 08:42 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Nemo]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Originally Posted By: Nemo
you are your memories

If we build another machine and install the same memories then that machine is identical to "you" or you must be referring to something else that is "you" - the ghost in the machine.

If you do not remember who you are, you are not "you" but only someone who exhibits awareness of the world around you.

You are your memories.

If they vanish, "you" do too.

Therefore, if those same memories reappeared somewhere, "you" would too.

If those memories reappeared in multiple bodies at the same time (like my computer program example) then there would be multiple "you"s that would do so as well.

From that moment forward, each person would begin to differ from the others as each created different new memories, but unless you are suggesting that there is something else then there are only your memories.

I agree on all accounts.

I think I might have worded things incorrectly before.

I agree with the statment that "you are your memories".

What I am posing here,is that if we can agree that when our bodies die and our brain ceases to function,WE(this model of memories,intwined with organic matter,Nemo v1.0)dies as well.

We can place those memories in another body,identical,and the new and improved you would live on.But would the "original" or "first" you's consciousness truly transfer over,OR would it be over for us (the original) and the new, would carry on,holding the memories of the old?

What I am asking,more simply put,is would WE(the original) get personal benefit out of it,or would it simply be the pleasure of the new us?

Regardless,the entire concept is exciting.And I just had a thought,that might be more in your favor:
I just imagined what it would be like,if someone told me I were a clone,with transferred memories.Would I feel any less,"real"?No.

So,I see your point.I would prefer to switch parts out in the original,rather than risk the ceasing of my brain's function(and thus this life,we love so much),and sacrificing it over to a new version of myself.Wes v2.0 would be grateful,but Wes v1.0 wouldn't get much benefit,aside from not needing a legacy,but rather living "forever",through countless copies.
_________________________
You stay classy,Satans!

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#407639 - 01/04/10 09:42 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: ArtAche86]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
Magister Nemo's answer, I think, helps to remove what appears to be a dilemma. But, I want to chime in, too. smile

Consider what happens to someone who is rendered unconscious, whether he or she be totally knocked out by a head trauma, successful anesthetic procedure, or even by ingesting date rape drugs slipped into a drink. Much easier, of course, to consider it if you have ever been so rendered yourself.

What happens when someone goes unconscious? Notwithstanding amnesia, you would have memory of what lead up to unconsciousness, and what occurred after regaining consciousness, but nothing to say of when you were under. This of course, assumes you were rendered unconscious, not just paralyzed to experience surgery in painful detail as in anesthesia recall, for instance.

During that period... where are "you"?

Perhaps I am wrong. I am no scientist or anesthesiologist, but I have been rendered unconscious before. Maybe I did dream during that time or had some other experience, but no memory of it. I can put it on a time line, where pluses represent consciousness and underscores unconsciousness:

|+++++++++++++++++++__________________________++++++++++++++++++|

That time line does not read "I exist", "I do not exist", "I exist", or "I am alive", "I am dead", "I am alive", or perhaps more sensibly, To me, the time line could just have easily been this:

|+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++|

Eight hours of surgery, a minute on the mat, or waking up naked in a puddle of puke outside a dorm makes no difference. Complete continuity of memory. The only reason one would be aware that he or she were unconscious would be that continuity of memory that pointed to it. For that reason, the timeline does look like this, and more closely matches "I am alive" and "Whoa, I was out there for a minute, huh?":

|+++++++++++++++++++__________________________++++++++++++++++++|

So, let us take the first timeline and play with it a bit. This is Fred's timeline, where he was rendered unconscious by anesthesia:

|+++++++++++++++++++__________________________...

While Fred was unconscious, mad scientists mapped his memory with a sophisticated brain scan and inserted the memory map into...

Sue.

Both Fred and Sue are brought back from unconsciousness. Fred is feeling a bit groggy and has to go to the bathroom really bad, and Sue is wondering "What the F**K is going on here?!?"

Fred and Sue's timeline, their memory, both began as such:

|+++++++++++++++++++__________________________

To both of them, it would be not much different than this:

|+++++++++++++++++++

Upon waking, Fred and Sue are the same person, but it is quite clear in this--I hope, amusing--example that Sue is already moving away from being the Fred s/he was before, and so is Fred.

Fred:

|+++++++++++++++++++I-am-groggy-and-have-to-pee-really-badly

Sue:

|+++++++++++++++++++Put-yourself-in-Sue's-shoes

I think this also neatly raises a problematic issue: consent. Had Fred consented to the insertion of his memory into Sue, well...

You might think that it kinda points to your "ghost in the machine".

Suppose Fred consented to this procedure as a radical new approach to sex change. NuYu Inc. grew a Sue for Fred, conducted all the psychological evaluations, and etc., and implanted Fred into Sue. Well, the procedure is a smashing success, and Sue wakes up to his new body, overjoyed.

What of the Fred that donated his memories to the Sue?

He is still locked inside the Fred body he never liked, while the other copy of Fred is running around in Sue's body happy as a lark.

But, where is the "ghost in the machine"?

No "essence" or "ghost" of Fred left Fred to pair up with Sue, leaving Fred's body a lifeless husk. Fred is still very much alive, still unhappy in his male body, while Sue is a very happy "Fred" in his new female body. The only essence or ghost that transfered from Fred to Sue was his memories up to that point, and that transfer did not destroy Fred's memories upon lending Sue's.

Speaking metaphorically, I think it better holds that the thread of memory is the program and the brain/human is the computer.

And, what you are asking might be something like "who is running the program?" That might be your ghost in the machine.

Pages 91-95 of the Satanic Bible sheds a bit of light on that ghost, but then... I think it comes back to just what Magister Nemo stated: It would just be another machine.

I hope I do not come across as if I have it all figured out. This is certainly not my case. You may find it worthwhile, as I do, to examine the idea further than to close yourself to it entirely by basically stating, "Once you are dead, that's it. You're dead." Doing so might raise more questions than answers, but what do you prefer more, an unanswered question, or a wrong answer?

Douglas Hofstadter wrote a great book--a few, actually--that prods at this ghost in the machine: "I Am a Strange Loop". It digs into metaphor a bit, too. I think you would find it intriguing.
_________________________

Refuse to die.

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#407720 - 01/05/10 04:20 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: ArtAche86]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12572
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:
...would the "original" or "first" you's consciousness truly transfer over...


What would "transfer over"?

There is your undefined "ghost".

Quote:
I just imagined what it would be like,if someone told me I were a clone,with transferred memories.Would I feel any less,"real"?No.


That's it exactly.

When the clone boots up with your former memories "he" will see himself as "you" 100%.

Now unless there is a "real you" that is something more ("ghost") then there is no issue here.

Additionally every time you have awakened from deep sleep or come out of general anesthesia you can note as a subjective experience how "you" "boot up" and come "online" as "you".

Sometimes when we awaken we are unaware for a moment where we are, when we are, and even who we are.

As an experience, this is what a clone with your memories starting up would experience.

Quote:
I would prefer to switch parts out in the original,rather than risk the ceasing of my brain's function(and thus this life,we love so much),and sacrificing it over to a new version of myself.


Staying conservative with personal survival makes perfect sense to me as well!!!

Glad you enjoyed this romp in the near future!

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#407722 - 01/05/10 04:29 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: TheAbysmal]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12572
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
That was a blast! laugh

Thank you!

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#407736 - 01/05/10 05:35 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Nemo]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
It was a pleasure discussing this with you and VitaeViternus!
_________________________
You stay classy,Satans!

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#407740 - 01/05/10 05:56 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Nemo]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
Thank you, and quite welcome. smile
_________________________

Refuse to die.

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#407812 - 01/06/10 08:25 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: ArtAche86]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
I never said that I disagreed with Magister Nemo. I was simply identifying some of the issues that may come along with relying on memory transplant.

The issue here isn't about weather you are your memories or not. Obviously your memories make up your identity. The issue here is consciousness.

Scientists and psychologists cannot even agree on what consciousness is:

The Big Questions: What is consciousness?

What is consciousness? Study Aims to Settle Debate.

Not to mention your entire biological nature is tied into your memories. Memories are records of things you have done in THIS body. Really it is quite difficult to know the issues that may or may not arise once we tie our memory into a different biological network.
_________________________









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#407834 - 01/06/10 03:55 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Unknown]
Midnight Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/27/09
Posts: 111
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Originally Posted By: Unknown
Memories are records of things you have done in THIS body.


What Unknown said made me think of virtual reality. If we can use our sensors to experience things while being in a virtual body are we creating these memories in our body or the virtual body? The memories are still ours but not theoretically made from our physical body.
I guess in a literal sense they are made using our physical body therefore they would be records of things you have done in THIS body. I will think a bit more on this!

This entire topic is so fascinating and thought provoking.

Hail Satan!
Midnight
_________________________
A man who dares to waste one hour of time has not discovered the value of life. - Charles Darwin

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