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#405271 - 12/10/09 12:01 AM Satanism and Transhumanism
Techno_Demon Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 3
I'm curious as to the thoughts of other satanists on the topic of transhumanism.I recently read a book on the subject called "The Singularity is Near" by Ray Kurzweil. Kurzweil predicts radical human life span increases by steadily tracking the exponential growth of information technology.Everything from nanobots to gene therapy, and human immortality by means of being able to digitally upload and emulate human brains electronically by as early as 2030. And he predicts that Artificial Intelligence will surpass Biological intelligence by 2045 spawning a singularity of self-improving evolutionary AI.

I myself have often contemplated on how future technologies could extend my life span and alter my intelligence. I think anything that could enhance ones understanding of the world and time among the great party would be heavily endorsed by satanism. But I've also thought about how living forever and knowing everything might take the meaning out of a vital existance.

One of Kurzweil's more ambitious plans following this technological singularity is extracting DNA from his father's grave, and taking memories of interactions with him from nearly everyone who knew him to essentially re-create and resurrect his late father. I'm not sure if I would agree with this practice, but it's amazing to think about the possibilities technology could present us with in the not too distant future.

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#405273 - 12/10/09 12:03 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Techno_Demon]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8871
Calling Magister Nemo... wink
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#405275 - 12/10/09 12:32 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Techno_Demon]
VictorWolf Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 237
Originally Posted By: Techno_Demon


I myself have often contemplated on how future technologies could extend my life span and alter my intelligence. I think anything that could enhance ones understanding of the world and time among the great party would be heavily endorsed by satanism. But I've also thought about how living forever and knowing everything might take the meaning out of a vital existance.


I'm not a particular expert on the subject of transhumanism, though I follow it with interest. The idea of immortality is a fascinating one that I doubt that I could pass up.

I'm momentarily confused by the idea that living forever and knowing everything would take the meaning out of vital existence. I think that pursuing experiences in Life is the essence of vital existence and that death, being the ultimate end of these experiences, would be quite the opposite of vital existence. This is a simplistic statement, but is something that needs to be examined.

I enjoy many things in life. One thing I enjoy is watching the same old movies over and over again. I couldn't tell you how many times I've watched Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein. I could probably recite it. It's true that I know what's going to happen and practically all that I can about the movie, but that doesn't detract from enjoyment of it. It is still vital to me.

The debate about immortality usually concerns whether or not a person could stand to do it. They might become "bored." But if I'm not bored now, how could I ever be bored? There's an infinity of experiences that I still haven't gone through. Vital existence is pursuing these and also enjoying the ones that I have always enjoyed.

Now, maybe "knowing everything" might seem intimidating, but I doubt that anybody will ever "know everything." Even so, human beings are not purely intellectual creatures and "knowing everything" only addresses one facet of life. Again, if you saw every movie, heard every symphony, or read every book, you could still go back and enjoy your favorites.

I think that the natural progression and pursuit of Vital Existence would mean that the person could live forever and not lose that love of life. And really, what's the alternative?



Edited by VictorWolf (12/10/09 12:34 AM)
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#405276 - 12/10/09 12:38 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: VictorWolf]
Techno_Demon Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 3
Ah, point taken about finding enjoyment from timeless favorites...I guess I was thinking that somehow living forever(Which I am totally for!) might somehow take the thrill out of a human deadline...As if you were using cheat codes in the game of life.But I guess it would make more sense to look at immortality being time enough to do everything and live vitally for as long as you would desire.

Also absolutely right about there not being much of an alternative!


Edited by Techno_Demon (12/10/09 12:54 AM)

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#405280 - 12/10/09 12:59 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Techno_Demon]
Cryptodelic Offline


Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 134
Loc: Seattle
Unless we figure out how to survive the heat death of the universe, "immortality" as such is absurd. I prefer to frame this pursuit as "negligible senescence".

So, If I don't want to die at this time, I presume that I don't want to die at a future time, therefore I resolve to live as long as I want to, and want to as long as I live.
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#405282 - 12/10/09 01:40 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Cryptodelic]
SpeshulK Offline


Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 25
Loc: UT
I'm personally very much into Transhumanism, and I'm always reading up on new modifications and additions to the human sensorium, among other topics. On the subject of the singularity I recently read an article that spoke of a supercomputer in Switzerland being used to simulate the brain of a rat. While it's a long way from human-level AI, and probably uses a lot of processing power for tasks not required of a singularity-AI (random virtual neurons and such). The research is clearly moving along, and I wouldn't be surprised if Kurzweil's predictions end up being dead on.

In addition, the human body modification scene is starting to take off. People with disabilities are hacking electronic implants such as cochlear hearing-aids in order to get more functionality from them than possible with the software originally available from the manufacturer. Body modification experts have implanted small magnets into the fingertips of mod-ees, giving them the ability to sense electromagnetic fields, as well as identify metals based on their magnetic conductivity. I've also read about an anklet connected to a few gyroscopes that puts a slight pressure on the north-facing side of the wearer's leg, giving him or her a perfect sense of direction.

With the advent of augmented reality technology and the increasing popularity of implantation technology in disabled people, I think it's only a matter of time before all sorts of goodies are available to the general public. I'm willing to bet within 20 years all kinds of implantable devices will be available to the average consumer.

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#405344 - 12/10/09 12:03 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Techno_Demon]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
I find the idea fascinating and would be pleased to see it become a reality. Do I take everything that Kurzweil says as gospel? No.
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"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#405946 - 12/16/09 01:36 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Techno_Demon]
Zaranell Offline


Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 56
Loc: Arizona, USA
Originally Posted By: Techno_Demon
...As if you were using cheat codes in the game of life.

Haven't you ever used cheat codes in a game like Crackdown? It makes it way more fun. If I had the strategy guide to Life, you can bet God Mode would be turned on for me.
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#405948 - 12/16/09 02:17 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Zaranell]
Drakkar Tyrannis Offline


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 122
Loc: Maryland,USA
Isn't Satanism the closest equivalent to God Mode we can get?

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#405953 - 12/16/09 02:54 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Drakkar Tyrannis]
Zaranell Offline


Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 56
Loc: Arizona, USA
Not if the advances in technology Kurzweil predicted come true.
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#405954 - 12/16/09 02:55 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Zaranell]
Drakkar Tyrannis Offline


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 122
Loc: Maryland,USA
You have a point there...but until then...

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#405960 - 12/16/09 04:34 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Techno_Demon]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:
But I've also thought about how living forever and knowing everything might take the meaning out of a vital existence.


So here's the real deal:

Example One:

You suddenly have a car accident and see that you are gushing blood from your leg where broken bone is sticking through.

Do you call 911 on your cell phone or skip it since sooner or later you might discover that life loses meaning because you learned too much?

Example Two:

You are 85 years old and are in a car wreck exactly the same. You are still you. Do you call 911 or do you skip it because you decide "your time has come" (whatever the hell that means!)?

Example Three:

You have a heart attack tomorrow evening. The surgeons tell you that if you are going to survive you will have to accept a heart transplant but this will mean you will need to take immune suppressant medications for the rest of your life to prevent your body from rejecting your new heart.

Do you agree to the heart transplant or do you decide that having to take meds for years to come is too much bother so you choose to die?

Example Four:

Same as above with a bad heart but the surgeon asks you if you would accept a heart that they will grow in the lab from your adult stem cells, which will take about ten weeks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9hEFUpTVPA).

There will be zero rejection of your new heart because it is your own tissue.

Do you agree to the procedure or do you skip it and choose to die because in some future yet to come you might become bored?

Example Five:

You are 95 years old and feel lousy. Your eyesight is bad, your hearing is bad, you can hardly walk - you are in terrible shape.

Your doctor asks you if you would like to have a series of injections that will reverse the aging of your body so that you will grow younger"? (See Aubrey de Grey's SENS project).

Do you take the treatment and allow your infirm body and brain to grow younger or you do you skip it and "let nature take it's course"?

Example Six:

Your body is maintained at a physical age of about thirty through various medical repair injection treatments as well as swarms of nanobots that swim through your bloodstream. Unless you get hit by a bus or get blown sky high by some terrorist attack, you can expect that your physical machine including your brain can be maintained indefinitely.

(The IRS loves you because you will also keep paying taxes indefinitely. grin ).

You have also been taking advantage of brain scan backups to save your memories "just in case". (This technology has been around since about 2040, ten years after the first computer would equal the computing power of the human brain, enabling the effective back-engineering of the brain).

You are hit on a sunny afternoon by a meteor and your body is vaporized. You wake up in a hospital bed and are informed by the doctor there that you are actually a clone of the original "you" who was killed by the meteor and your memories of your former life were uploaded into your cloned brain.

You feel just like yourself. You remember everything about your life (including how the IRS loves you). You find it very hard to believe that a former "version" of you was killed.

Do you thank the doctor for restoring you to health or do you choose to erase your back-up memories and blow your brains out because your new existence is an affront to God?

Example Seven:

Same meteor, same accident but this time when you wake up the doctor explains that you are not in the real world. Instead, your brain scan backup was used to create "you" in this simulation of the real world, a virtual reality (such as was portrayed in the film "The Matrix").

You still feel exactly the same. You feel like you are yourself. You seem to be able to remember your past just fine.

Do you thank the doctor for saving your life or do you demand that they pull the plug on this simulation of life because you only want to live in the real world, not one that is indistinguishable from the real world?

-------------------

I will stop here since you are only discussing longevity and not really what happens as human beings have the option to become incrementally smarter and stronger. (Clark Kent, move over!).

All of the above issues are simply choices between life and death.

If "survival is the highest law" for the Satanist, then these questions will answer themselves as they come into play.

I have no doubt there will be groups who will reject such schemes when they come into existence, just as there are religions that still reject blood transfusions.

However, most people will continue to follow the instinct for survival and choose life over death.

To me, it is a no-brainer.

Something is better than nothing.

Some chance is always better than no chance.

Just my opinion.

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#405963 - 12/16/09 04:56 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Techno_Demon]
Iscariot Offline


Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 144
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: Techno_Demon
But I've also thought about how living forever and knowing everything might take the meaning out of a vital existence.


Existence, in my opinion, has no inherent meaning. One must create meaning for one's existence. If knowing everything (intellectually) was your meaning and you achieved it, you simply have reached your own, personal goal and need to reach for a new goal (perhaps a political, social, interpersonal, economical, one.) Its that simple.

You just create a new meaning for yourself. Humans do it all the time, its just, for us, the clock runs out eventually. If you lived forever, you could have an unlimited number of goals or meanings... sounds pretty damn sweet to me.

Besides, "knowing everything" seems fairly impossible. I mean... if the universe is as big as we estimate, you got a long task ahead of you if you want to explore and understand it all...


Edited by Iscariot (12/16/09 05:00 PM)
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#405977 - 12/16/09 08:57 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Techno_Demon]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
Quote:
But I've also thought about how living forever and knowing everything might take the meaning out of a vital existence.


I have read what I think are great replies on this particular portion of your post. Of course, I am going to chime in with some of my own thoughts, but your statement remains unqualified.

What are your reasons for thinking that? It could be that you are (understandably) inundated with learned deathist biases that you are just missing some otherwise obvious benefits to living forever.

And, what do you mean by "meaning ... of vital existence"? Do you mean it like "meaning of life"?

A lot of people say living forever would be painful for having to witness their friends and family die. But, really, this seems flimsy to me.

What kind of weird world would it be that you could live forever, but somehow, all your friends and loved ones or even everyone else in the whole world would be unable to take advantage as you?

Assume that some of your friends and loved ones, or even all of them eventually die as you live. That would be saddening, but would not the sorrow eventually pass? Would it be a requirement that you also die? Would you not be able to kindle new relationships?

Many people point to eventual, insatiable boredom.

What?!? Speaking for myself, I can listen to the same song year after year after year. Still like it. Maybe if one were to live forever, a body floating in some black void of nothingness, that could get boring. Frankly, that must be what some people must think, or thereabouts. I could keep myself well occupied and engaged with things forever just on Earth... The United States... My city... My home... Shoot. I keep myself pretty well entertained here in this chair on this Internet thing.

For all the untold numbers of reasons to think that living forever would become meaningless and devoid of vitality, there are at least dozens of reasons to know it would be anything but. Even if there was only one good reason, one well thought-out good reason to live works better than a million cookie-cutter answers to die.

Quote:
One of Kurzweil's more ambitious plans following this technological singularity is extracting DNA from his father's grave, and taking memories of interactions with him from nearly everyone who knew him to essentially re-create and resurrect his late father. I'm not sure if I would agree with this practice, but it's amazing to think about the possibilities technology could present us with in the not too distant future.


What do you find disagreeable about it?
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#405978 - 12/16/09 09:06 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Iscariot]
prenna Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 543
Loc: QLD, Australia
The question of life extension came up recently as a Livejournal "Question of the Day". As is usual within this deathist culture there was reference to "the wisdom that comes with growing old and dying". To me this is an insane idea. I can gain much more wisdom by living and experiencing many millenia here in the real world than if I was to stop existing. This seems obvious to me.

I also find it disturbing when people say that death gives life meaning. If death is all that gives a person's life meaning they should really re-evaluate their life.


As for the other aspects of transhumanism, such as increasing intelligence and physical capabilities, I'm all for it. For me being the elite, alien or otherwise, is not something you attain and then stop. It is a constant process of development. A permanent evolution. If transhumanist technologies can assist in this I want in.
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#405996 - 12/17/09 12:28 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Nemo]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
You are hit on a sunny afternoon by a meteor and your body is vaporized. You wake up in a hospital bed and are informed by the doctor there that you are actually a clone of the original "you" who was killed by the meteor and your memories of your former life were uploaded into your cloned brain.

You feel just like yourself. You remember everything about your life (including how the IRS loves you). You find it very hard to believe that a former "version" of you was killed.


Barring belief in a soul, I would not believe that the clone is "you." It may mimic the behaviors of its parent copy precisely, it may believe in every regard that it is the original, but it would not be the same stream of consciousness.

Granted, there's a good deal of debate as to what exactly consciousness is within transhumanist thought. In particular, how much of the brain could be replaced before it ceases to be the same consciousness? After all, you're left wondering if replacing the brain bit by bit would permit the same consciousness to exist once the entire brain is replaced. But it's almost certain that suddenly and catostrophically destroying the original, then starting a cloned copy somewhere else, would simply result in a separate being and consciousness that resembles the original in all regards.

Ironically it would probably be a perfectly acceptable replacement for your original to everyone around you, since they perhaps could not tell the difference - but the person it matters most to, you, would be quite dead.

The rest of your scenarios sound generally acceptable, though I think the concept sometimes used to argue them is one of existential devaulation. Take your "life simulation" scenario, for example. Sure, I'd take that over nothing. But would I feel like I lost something? Quite possibly. It might even be euphoric at first if the simulation allows you to do things you could not do in life. But who an say what mental effect it would have after time, to know that you can no longer even perceive what or where you are? Could be a bit troublesome knowing that someone need only pull a plug without you even being able to see them, much less respond, to end your existence, nevermind the knowledge that "accomplishment" is now a relative thing. After all, why "build" or "create" when the program itself can simulate anything you would make effortlessly?

Finally, a counter scenario, simply to play devil's advocate (purely for illustration of an alternate situation, since obviously I would not choose to bleed to death, and I'm not especially creeped out by science):

You are fatally wounded, by mishap, violence, or whatever. Your family is present, but you are bleeding profusely and any rational assessment would see that you have a few minutes at best - and you are a minimum of fifteen minutes from aid.

Do you go into a panic of demands for help ASAP, or do you calmly spend your final moments wisely with those around you, realizing that in this case, death is in fact inevitable?

To me, the sensible thing in any case is to see what is likely to be possible, and make the best of it. Real personal/ethical questions of this nature in a modern context rarely revolve around such black and white choices. Is it better to accept a few months or a year of remaining life with cancer, with painkillers to make it livable, or is it better to take a gamble on buying, at most, a few more months at the risk of feeling more miserable than ever?

Any sane person would call for help rather than bleed to death, or take a procedure that carries little risk and may completely renew their health. But it is far less clear where the line is drawn between quantity and quality of life.
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"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#406000 - 12/17/09 02:57 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: TheAbysmal]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
As pro-transhumanist as I am, there are times when I read things that I just think should be left to volition.

So, I say "Live and let die, unless it’s me."
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#406044 - 12/17/09 02:43 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:
Any sane person would call for help rather than bleed to death, or take a procedure that carries little risk and may completely renew their health. But it is far less clear where the line is drawn between quantity and quality of life.


I quite agree.

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#406047 - 12/17/09 02:53 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: prenna]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Actually they were saying on that "Did you Know 2009" thing, that a 1000 dollar computer will be able to out-compute the entire human race by 2049.

But all a computer can do is what is programmed to do.
True Artificial Intelligence could mean amazing advancements, but our bad "Arnold" movies could become a close reality as well.

The future is looking great though!
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#406048 - 12/17/09 03:28 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: ArtAche86]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 995
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: ArtAche86
But all a computer can do is what is programmed to do.
True Artificial Intelligence could mean amazing advancements, but our bad "Arnold" movies could become a close reality as well.


One thing to remember about true AI, is that just because a computer is made to be able to think on its own, does not mean that it’s necessarily going to have the same instincts or desires that an animal or a person would have (unless, of course, someone programmed it to).

For instance, you could have a computer that is able to think, and make intelligent decisions, but that would have no ego to placate, like a human would. There’s no reason why a machine would need to be programmed with a desire for power or even a sense of self preservation.

Often times when we think about artificial intelligence the tendency is to assume that the more “human” the computer’s thought process is, the closer to intelligent it becomes. But actually there is no reason to assume that a machine such as this would have any of the attributes that would cause it to be the kind of threat that we see in the movies. In fact, I would think that the best AI would still be created to be as logical as possible and without those more “irrational” attributes that we animals have been born with in order to aid in our survival.
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#406064 - 12/17/09 07:23 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: John Prophet]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2153
Quite true.

I still think it would be cool to make an android that could fully duplicate the intricacies of human behavior. It would just be a trip to have full blown conversations with a thing that could come up with its own opinions and insights, and emotional investments; then to realize it's a machine.

I could say more on this subject but I'll reserve that for downstairs.
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"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#406065 - 12/17/09 07:26 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: NapalmNick]
Iscariot Offline


Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 144
Loc: United States
I can hear the bleeding hearts fighting for android rights already... "Computers are people too!"
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#406066 - 12/17/09 08:32 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Iscariot]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2153
Well, to me the "issue" of android slavery is pretty simple: if the machine is programmed to have emotions, self-determination, and other human aspects, then it is a life-form.

If it does not have these attributes, slave away!

The only legitimate complication I can foresee is whether or not it would be ethical to remove humanized programming after having already introduced it. Personally, if I had an android that I programmed to be autonomous, I couldn't find it in my heart to take that away from it; what other people do with theirs is their business. Because the issue is whether or not the thing is property, and questioning the possibility that by removing such programming could be murder.
_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#406067 - 12/17/09 08:41 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: NapalmNick]
Iscariot Offline


Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 144
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: NapalmNick
Well, to me the "issue" of android slavery is pretty simple: if the machine is programmed to have emotions, self-determination, and other human aspects, then it is a life-form.



How do you define "emotion"? I mean, NCPs in video games mimic human emotion now. Where does the line between genuine and mimicked emotion get drawn?
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#406076 - 12/17/09 09:11 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: NapalmNick]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
>>It would just be a trip to have full blown conversations with a thing that could come up with its own opinions and insights, and emotional investments; then to realize it's a machine.

It is sort of like talking to a human, only it is a machine of the flesh.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#406077 - 12/17/09 09:28 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Discipline]
Iscariot Offline


Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 144
Loc: United States
>> It is sort of like talking to a human, only it is a machine of the flesh.

And for the average person, just as programmable. coopdevil
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#406078 - 12/17/09 09:28 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Discipline]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
Yeah... I realized it may have been read and disregarded as quickly. Also, though, I never really know who else is reading.

I can remember a few Aha! moments from my first days here. smile

"Live and let die, unless it’s me."

I like it. Brisk and useful.
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#406079 - 12/17/09 09:36 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: TheAbysmal]
Iscariot Offline


Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 144
Loc: United States
>> Do you go into a panic of demands for help ASAP, or do you calmly spend your final moments wisely with those around you, realizing that in this case, death is in fact inevitable?

Just had an odd thought. (Probably because I'm wasting time instead of studying for my Chemistry final...) but, technically, couldn't the above scenario be considered "self destructive pride?"

I'm sure that's not what Dr. LaVey meant when we wrote about self destructive pride, but I mean if you think about it, you're keeping your pride and it will kill you... haha


Edited by Iscariot (12/17/09 09:36 PM)
Edit Reason: I can't spell...
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#406081 - 12/17/09 10:22 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Iscariot]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2153
Quote:
Where does the line between genuine and mimicked emotion get drawn?

Well, that is a good question, and incidentally one I do not have an answer for. The reason I say this is because I personally do not understand what in the human brain causes us to feel emotion. I'm sure someone else here could explain that, however.

Without delving into too much of the specifics, I'll simply say that I'm confident that "genuine" emotions will be able to be produced by non-biological life-forms in the future.
_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#406082 - 12/17/09 10:29 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Iscariot]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
Quote:
couldn't the above scenario be considered "self destructive pride?"


I think it depends on who you're making the decision for. If you're trying to impress someone with your bravery in the face of death - that's just silly. Likewise if you feel your death will advance some "cause."

Thinking that you can save yourself, however, and wasting your last moments on a impossibility could be equally counter productive.

Don't we live each day to the fullest so that if and when we are staring death in the face we don't have to worry so much how we handles those last few moments? I think that "honorable death" is sort of a Hollywood myth, real people with the ability to save themselves do or make a mess of themselves trying.


Edited by Drimlybunk (12/17/09 10:30 PM)
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#406083 - 12/17/09 10:31 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: NapalmNick]
Iscariot Offline


Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 144
Loc: United States
>> I'm confident that "genuine" emotions will be able to be produced by non-biological life-forms in the future.

God I hope not... That would cause some serious ethical questions... oh well. I guess I'll cross that bridge when we come to it I suppose...

>> "real people with the ability to save themselves do or make a mess of themselves trying."

So true. I like to think I'll have this dramatically awesome death... epic last words... something like that. But in reality my last word will probably be something like: "Hey, could you reach behind the seat and grab me tha-"


Edited by Iscariot (12/17/09 10:40 PM)
Edit Reason: I thought of better last words...
_________________________
"Much Madness is divinest Sense..."

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#406085 - 12/17/09 10:38 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Iscariot]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Futurist and inventor, Ray Kurzweil suggests that it will not be an issue of "us versus them" as we will merge with "them", as we merge with our advanced information technology.

I cannot help but think about simpler technologies we use to enhance our experience of life: eyeglasses to see better, clothing to enable us to move in more extreme climates, automobiles for travel, etc.

The essence of identity boundaries will define the course of these events and our perception of them.

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#406086 - 12/17/09 10:41 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Drimlybunk]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Yes, that is Hollywood.

Reality is "I want to live!"

That is primal.

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#406090 - 12/17/09 10:49 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Nemo]
Iscariot Offline


Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 144
Loc: United States
>> we will merge with "them"

I actually was discussing this not to long ago with some friends. We were discussing the advancements in prosthetics and the new prosthetic arms that, once they get it all figured out, will have the potential to send the same signals for pain and feeling as a regular arm does.

I honestly would consider getting one of these arms as an elective procedure. I mean, you would never have to worry about arthritis, burning yourself accidentally, etc. simply by programing your arm not to feel those kinds of pain. Not to mention the advantage it would give you in a fight... rip
_________________________
"Much Madness is divinest Sense..."

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#406102 - 12/18/09 12:44 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: TheAbysmal]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
Assume that some of your friends and loved ones, or even all of them eventually die as you live. That would be saddening, but would not the sorrow eventually pass? Would it be a requirement that you also die? Would you not be able to kindle new relationships?

No. You just accumulate more losses. New relationships yes, but the sorrow never passes.

The whole topic of "the meaning of living a really damn long time, or being truly immortal" opens up massive avenues of philosophical and emotional exploration. Don't quite feel up to writing a full post about that at this moment, but I think it's cherry-picking to use examples where there is no tradeoff, or where the only choice is immediate death or a lifesaving procedure.

But, I will leave with this thought:

Would you accept losing the ability to die, including by your own will, while gaining no augmentations to physical abilities?

I think it's not quite so easy of a choice if you consider it.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#406105 - 12/18/09 01:11 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Iscariot]
Midnight Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/27/09
Posts: 111
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Has anyone seen the film 'Surrogates'? The ideas in the film were very intriguing. The thought that you could live your life in the safety of your home but interact with the world, both physially and mentally, using a surrogate has a lot of potential.

Personally, the thought of whether l would want to live forever or not has not entered my mind in a serious way. My plan is to live as long as l can so that l can experience, enjoy and do as much as l can during my time alive. I plan to be 'immortal' in the same way that Einstien, Newton, Thatcher, Ned Kelly, LaVey, King Edward, Washington and many more are immortal. They may not be physically alive but they are well and truly still here on this planet because of what they did, what they achieved or what they became famous for. I don't know yet how l will become immortal but l plan to be remembered for something phenomenal!

I have thought about what l would do if l was in a car accident and found myself dying and my thought has always been that l would never let death win. I will force myself to get help, fix myself or whatever it would take because l am not leaving this party called life with out a good fight. However, l have thought of the fact that my mind might be ready to fight but if l loose too much blood, am far too physically damaged, etc, l might have a bit of trouble. I guess l will work it out at the time if it happens!

Our world has changed dramatically over the last 100 or so years. I find everything that happens fascinating and welcome all of it.

Life! Bring it on!

Hail Satan!
Midnight
_________________________
A man who dares to waste one hour of time has not discovered the value of life. - Charles Darwin

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#406111 - 12/18/09 03:22 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Techno_Demon]
TECHNO Offline



Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 112
Loc: -31.955658,115.859928
A topic dear to my heart brother.

I see the next evolution of man being brought about through the use of technology.

First there will be cyborgs, as pioneered by Professor Kevin Warwick of Reading University in UK. I recommend his book 'I, cyborg' published by Random House which shares details and insight into his early experiments in the field of cybernetics.

My theory is that cyborgs, being technologically augmented humans will branch into what will become known as something like 'Homo Technicus' or 'Homo Technical' (has a better ring to it in my opinion).

Homo Technical will be very much a synergy of organic, mechanical and electronics. Beginning with a modified 'human form' (as we now know it) the term and the concept of what it is to be human will quickly adapt to encompass many 'non-traditional' antiquated bipedal forms.

Then there will come perhaps after, or perhaps simultaneously 'Techno Sapiens'.
100% non-organic but with an intelligence synthesized or perhaps replicated from a human intelligence.
Physical form will be much less relevant (if even required) unless specific to a task to be psychically performed.
Memory, intelligence and experience will be able to be reproduced and stored in digital form.
Death will in effect be redundant as any data saved in a secure location (like a back up hard drive) could be reproduced and replicated.

I could go on but I have other things to do at this particular moment.

I have spent the last 10 years or so developing the philosophy of TECHNO so I have many ideas on related subjects. Perhaps we can continue this discourse at a later date.

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#406163 - 12/18/09 03:41 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Midnight]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:
...l am not leaving this party called life with out a good fight.


That's the spirit!

And that really is the whole point.

Good for you!

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#406168 - 12/18/09 04:30 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Midnight]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10573
Loc: England
>> I have thought about what l would do if l was in a car accident and found myself dying and my thought has always been that l would never let death win. I will force myself to get help, fix myself or whatever it would take because l am not leaving this party called life with out a good fight. However, l have thought of the fact that my mind might be ready to fight but if l loose too much blood, am far too physically damaged, etc, l might have a bit of trouble. <<


Ah, yes. The will to live is the cornerstone of any life-loving philosophy - whatever one's take may be.

We should begin by not over-contemplating our death in the first place.

grin grin
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#406169 - 12/18/09 04:34 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Drimlybunk]
Basher Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 66
Loc: Mars
Habits can be reformed to suit the wants of the one who is the meddler but for the true Satanist a machine-like existence is not conceivable.

Yes, we are much like our deistic counterparts in that we have the same needs for survival. Shelter, food, clothes, money, a purposeful place in society. But as Anton LaVey had made clear:

We ultimately make our own decisions, unconcerned with what the rabble wants.


Edited by Basher (12/18/09 04:35 PM)
_________________________
Felated Satan!

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#406212 - 12/19/09 08:47 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Basher]
Iscariot Offline


Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 144
Loc: United States
Did I miss something here...? confused
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"Much Madness is divinest Sense..."

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#406217 - 12/19/09 09:25 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Iscariot]
Skjalandir Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 92
Loc: England
His post history will fill in the blanks. The one where he changed his name to Satan is a good place to start.

As for Transhumanism, I think it's really interesting and I am looking forward to seeing what happens, even if only a fraction of what is predicted is achieved.

As for myself, I'd obviously take every chance to extend my life, but I really doubt that unless I put a life time into getting into the circles with the scientists pushing these things that I'd get a chance to actually do it. Lets face it, there is too much living to do. Most the people I have met that know a lot about Transhumanism talk about it as if it will affect them, but once people start wielding the powers they won't share it with the mass populace.
_________________________
Einstein can't be classed as witless
He claimed atoms were the littlest
When you did a bit of splittingen-ness
Frighten everybody shitless
- Ian Dury

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#406219 - 12/19/09 09:34 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Skjalandir]
Iscariot Offline


Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 144
Loc: United States
>> His post history will fill in the blanks. The one where he changed his name to Satan is a good place to start.

Okay good. I'm not the only one noticing a trend. grin

>> Most the people I have met that know a lot about Transhumanism talk about it as if it will affect them.

Working in the medical field, I've seen how long it takes for even the most simple of medical products to get approved for the general public. There's a seemingly unlimited number of hoops and red tape that must be navigated before anything is even considered admissible into the general public. Not to mention the years it will take for these technologies to become even remotely affordable. (Not to mention the years of development that are still necessary for these technologies to be developed.)

In short, I was born too early... wink
_________________________
"Much Madness is divinest Sense..."

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#406232 - 12/19/09 10:46 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Iscariot]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Beware of straight line assumptions with exponential increases.

Ray Kurzweil has been the world's most successful predictor of major future events.

He is the hands-down champion.

He bases his predictions on the proven exponential (not linear) growth of information technology.

If you are going to make assumptions about the future it is wise to base them on those who have the best track record and whose methods are based on assumptions that make sense.

Kurzeil for years has predicted that machines will equal the computing power of the human brain by 2029.

Kurzweil has predicted for years that the AI Singularity will happen just about 20 years after that at which point intelligence will leap above the current human level exponentially.

Kurzweil has stated quite clearly that he expects that if he lives another 15 years he will pass through the current bottleneck that will lead to ongoing options to reverse aging and increasingly repair and maintain the human body which is, after all, just another machine.

My own opinion is simply that I do not place my bets with losers. I place my bets with winners.

In this field of prediction, Kurzweil is the world's top winner.

You were not born too early.

Anyone expecting to survive another 15 years wasn't born too early either.

Oh. One more thing.

Costs always drop as technology improves. When technologies enter exponential improvement as is true in this area then costs fall dramatically.

Also the level of technology determines the wealth of all members in society, not merely the rich. The poorest members of American society generally live better in every way than the wealthiest European kings of the Renaissance.

The nature of these accelerating technologies is such that they spread and are actually quite impossible to contain or sequester. Information technologies lend themselves to this as we see in the worldwide spread of the copying of music, videos, books on the internet.

There may be bumps and hiccups along the way, even major warfare and the loss of many cities through violence, however the forward thrust of these accelerating technologies appears to be quite unstoppable.

Those who face this future with eyes wide open will have the best chance to survive these issues and benefit from the resulting wealth.

Those who don't will never see what hit them.

Always look both ways when crossing a street.

Always look forward when the future starts rushing at you exponentially.

Don't blink. grin

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#406239 - 12/19/09 11:02 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Nemo]
Iscariot Offline


Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 144
Loc: United States
My ever persistent pessimism surfacing. haha.

But seriously, thank you for your response Magister. I have always been fascinated with the future of human technology and evolution. (Hence my nerdly allegiance to the Star Wars Universe...) and the idea of such technologies (Transhuman, not lightsabers wink ) existing in my lifetime is a very exiting one for me. Especially in the 15 year estimate is correct.


Edited by Iscariot (12/19/09 11:03 AM)
_________________________
"Much Madness is divinest Sense..."

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#406260 - 12/19/09 02:31 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Iscariot]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
"Pessimism: The hidden expectation that God is out to punish you." -Nemo's Lexicon grin

Here in just 7 minutes is Kurzweil summarizing all of this:



And, oh yes...

"Optimism: The overt expectation that you might live for another 15 years." -Nemo's Lexicon wink

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#406261 - 12/19/09 03:59 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: John Prophet]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Originally Posted By: John Prophet
There’s no reason why a machine would need to be programmed with a desire for power or even a sense of self preservation.


I can think of one!

On the self-preservation front,imagine how great it would be the next time someone tried to steal your car stereo,if your car stereo beat their ass.

Imagine property that could defend ITSSELF against crime. That my friend is the future. And if I am to invest money into one of these cyborgs (an expensive endeavor I am sure)I want it to defend itsself against the criminal mind.


Edited by ArtAche86 (12/19/09 04:08 PM)
Edit Reason: Human Error (No Pun Intended)
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You stay classy,Satans!

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#406262 - 12/19/09 04:06 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
Priest Hagen von Tronje,

On point of the sorrow never passing, I am neither in a position to agree, nor disagree. I am fortunate enough that the people I care deeply about, namely immediate family and close friends, are all still alive. Still, I think the sorrow can pass--operate word is can, not does--but I will have to get back to you on that one.

Regarding the massive avenues of philosophical and emotional exploration that the topic opens, I 100% agree. In that regard, your observation that my examples are "cherry picking" is correct. I do not think I am up to the task of covering all that entails, much less in a post.

Would I choose to not die including by my own will?

Well, I agree that is not necessarily so easy a choice. That sounds a bit like a corridor to the perverted Christian idea that upon final judgement, God will give all the unsaved "glorified bodies" that cannot be destroyed, then throw them in the "fiery lake of burning sulfur". Does not exactly sound like the eternal life most would opt for, right?

I disagree for me. I will choose torment in the fiery, burning sulfur lake for all eternity than knowingly choose death. My logical mind tells me I must get used to it after a while, like the monkey cage at the zoo.

I just cannot fathom not existing.

Fortunately for me, I do not see loss of will nor lack of useful physical augmentation (or painful burning) being a condition of long, even eternal life.

Still, it is an excellent question. It is bound to get people thinking, and I highly doubt everyone sees it as I do. smile
_________________________

Refuse to die.

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#406263 - 12/19/09 04:13 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: TheAbysmal]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Originally Posted By: Vitaeviternus
Fortunately for me, I do not see loss of will nor lack of useful physical augmentation (or painful burning) being a condition of long, even eternal life.


Something tells me Chris Reeves wanted to FEEL more than he wanted to WALK.
_________________________
You stay classy,Satans!

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#406265 - 12/19/09 04:36 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: ArtAche86]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 995
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: ArtAche86
I can think of one!


Okay fine, but when your car stereo decides to assimilate with you and you can’t turn it off; remember that you were warned. crossbones
_________________________


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#406267 - 12/19/09 04:59 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: John Prophet]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Originally Posted By: John Prophet
Originally Posted By: ArtAche86
I can think of one!


Okay fine, but when your car stereo decides to assimilate with you and you can’t turn it off; remember that you were warned. crossbones


Touche'

But I wouldn't program it to do that. I'm pretty sure the companies who manufacture these technological miracles, wouldn't allow it to do something it wasn't designed to do,to avoid a lawsuit.That would be the smart thing to do anyhow.
_________________________
You stay classy,Satans!

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#406269 - 12/19/09 05:15 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: ArtAche86]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
I do not quite get your point, but I suspect you may not have gotten mine. Or, was it a joke?

My point is that more often than not, the difference between life and death is a choice. One either chooses to look both ways before crossing the street or one does not. At some point, one could argue that the choice between life versus death goes away. I feel for the poor person who, no longer able fight the urge to get away from the intense heat of his 20th story office fire, is left with the option of plummeting to his death from the window instead of burning to death. More often than not, however, people are not left with such painful options.

I choose to look both ways before crossing the street.

I choose to spend hundreds of dollars on vitamins and supplements and eat an extra daily meal of pills, powders, and potions. I could spend that money elsewhere, and I could certainly find more entertaining things to do than make my own sodium ascorbate. But, I do not. Instead, I go through measures that improve my health and hopefully prolong my life.

I choose to go through the cycle of success and failure in quitting smoking/tobacco/nicotine. I could just say to hell with it. It would be much easier and far less painful (at least now) to avoid nicotine withdrawal and just smoke. Sometimes, I do just that. Every time I light up, I am choosing death. Every time I resist the urge and even knock the habit for a while, I choose life.

I made many poor choices as a child and as an adult--and still do. Much of what I do now may not be forward progress as much as it is undoing what I have already done. But, these are choices, I think, that leave me better off over the long run than choosing otherwise or simply not choosing at all.

All this points to my primary hang up with Priest Hagen von Tronje's well posed question: Choice.

Chris Reeve may have wanted to walk, feel, or whatever else more than the other things when he was alive. Beats me. I never knew the guy. But, he was at least alive enough--before he died in 2004--that he could be happy for what he had, or sad about what he had lost.

Happy or sad, these are provisions that death does not offer. Last I checked, he had contemplated but not committed suicide, an option almost always on the table.


Edited by Vitaeviternus (12/19/09 08:04 PM)
Edit Reason: Rephased in past tense in light of Drimlybunk's observation that Chris Reeve (not Reeves) died.
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Refuse to die.

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#406271 - 12/19/09 05:33 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: ArtAche86]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 995
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: ArtAche86
But I wouldn't program it to do that. I'm pretty sure the companies who manufacture these technological miracles, wouldn't allow it to do something it wasn't designed to do,to avoid a lawsuit.That would be the smart thing to do anyhow.


I know, I was just joking.

But of course when I said “self preservation” I meant it only in the sense that the machine wouldn’t allow you to turn it off under any circumstances or would try to kill you for doing it (like in the movies). The type of self preservation that you’re talking about would actually be very sensible and practical. I approve!
_________________________


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#406285 - 12/19/09 07:02 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: TheAbysmal]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
On grieving and sorrow for those who die as we live on, we can look to what we ourselves have experienced as well as many others.

In Victor Frankl's book Man's Search For Meaning, Frankl offers the wide range of responses he observed first hand as a prisoner in Auschwitz under the Nazis in WWII.

His overall conclusion was that those who had found reasons to live would survive almost anything and those who lost such meaning died like flies.

Then we can look at survivors of such ordeals - situations in which sole survivors saw their entire families butchered.

Again, those who found meaning for living overcame their traumas while those who did not suffered for as long as they did live.

So there is wide variation in how human beings react to personal losses and Frankl's conclusions seem quite sound.

On a personal level if you have not lost human relatives, friends, children, etc., you have probably lost a pet, perhaps many pets. Does the sorrow and grief pass. Yes. Is it a uniform time period for each loss. No.

Again with all of these concerns about whether one can endure the loss of those who die while you live on, my advice is simple:

Live on and find out.

As I recall, Marcus Aurelius once put it this way, "Never complain about life. The door is always open to leave." grin

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#406286 - 12/19/09 07:15 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Nemo]
Mr. Obsidian Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 3120
Loc: Ohio
Quote:
it will not be an issue of "us versus them" as we will merge with "them", as we merge with our advanced information technology.


Exactly!

Every aspect of what we value as "culture" is technology: words, writing, music, video, art, logic, clothes, guns, etc., etc.
_________________________
~ Mr. Obsidian (JP)

Olio/Etcetera

Flesh and Bones
_______________

“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
~ Charles Bukowski


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#406287 - 12/19/09 07:53 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: TheAbysmal]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
Quote:
Chris Reeves may want to walk, feel, or whatever else more than the other things. Beats me. I do not know the guy. But, he is at least alive enough that he can be happy for what he has, or sad about what he has lost.

Happy or sad, these are provisions that death does not offer. Last I checked, he has contemplated but not committed suicide, an option almost always on the table.


Actually...

I can guarantee you he will never commit suicide. I also know for a fact that he does not want to walk.

Christopher Reeve (September 25, 1952 – October 10, 2004)
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#406289 - 12/19/09 08:01 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Drimlybunk]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
Oh. I guess it would have been handy to have checked those tidbits before I bit into the feel/walk thing.

Thanks. smile
_________________________

Refuse to die.

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#406295 - 12/19/09 10:14 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: TheAbysmal]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
I understand what you were saying.

What I was merely saying is that I am sure he would have much rather felt things (touch is a WONDERFUL SENSE) than to walk and feel nothing at all. If the latter were the ONLY choice then yes,if for no more reason than to live until such a time as technology could give us a fully functional artificial Central Nervous System. ("Bicentennial Man",anyone?)

Satanists don't commit crimes because they ultimately end in prison or death,both of which pull us from living life to its fullest capabilities.


I was merely saying that touch is a way that we experience much of what life has to offer us.Sight is a beautiful thing,but it would be a hard choice whether or not to live on at the expense of not being able to feel.It would be like being in a prison in your own flesh(synthetic or real).

I would do it,but I would sure miss all those tastes,touches,and feels.
_________________________
You stay classy,Satans!

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#406318 - 12/20/09 01:33 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: ArtAche86]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
Thanks. It seems I simply misunderstood you, and this clears it up nicely.

I, too, would certainly miss touch. Even Helen Keller had touch.
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#406335 - 12/20/09 10:37 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Mr. Obsidian]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:
Every aspect of what we value as "culture" is technology: words, writing, music, video, art, logic, clothes, guns, etc., etc.


Precisely correct.

Fifty years ago computers filled entire rooms and cost millions of dollars to be used by an elite priest craft of a very few scientists.

Today no one thinks it unusual or weird to use Google to look up spelling, definitions, road directions, book reviews, you-name-it.

Using computers is an example of "merging" with our tools, technology - much as your other examples of tools.

Whether we use keyboards with our fingers, eye motions (like jet fighter pilots), or eventually just think instructions to physically internalized work stations, we have always extended our reach with tools.


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#406336 - 12/20/09 10:57 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: John Prophet]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
I can imagine more elegant solutions to property theft such as demonstrated today with online back-up programs.

A few years ago, if you used a computer at home you could expect to pay around $2000 for a basic system and then would have to spend hours to back up your files on floppy disks (remember those?).

Today the prices are much lower and very good computer systems can run about $500, and instead of manually having to back up data to disks or jump drives, using encrypted online backup systems your data is streamed off site as you work.

Years ago if your office or house were burglarized or burned down and your back up disks were stolen or destroyed you were out of luck.

Today, they can steal your computer and the same day you can go out and buy another one and restore your files automatically.

The theft is now 25% of the value of your earlier computer.

The theft of your data in non-existent (if you kept your encryption keys secure elsewhere).

Consequently, there is less and less for the criminals to steal as the technology becomes more and more sophisticated!

You can see the same thing with home movies. You used to buy VHS tapes of films, then DVDs. Increasingly, movies are cheap and easy to see online.

Before a burglar could steal your VHS tape tapes or DVD collection. Now there is nothing to steal but increasingly inexpensive access systems.

Same with music. Earlier 33.3 RPM long playing vinyl records, then audio cassette tapes, then CDs, then MP3 files.

Earlier very expensive home stereo systems, then today ear buds and MP3 players under $50.

This is an example of what I mean about how improved technology increased the overall wealth of society.

Later clothing, transportation, and housing will become involved as well.

When everything a thief can steal is cheap, crime will be less a concern, and there will consequently be fewer motivations for thievery.

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#406337 - 12/20/09 11:10 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Nemo]
MagdaGraham Offline
CoS Priestess

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 13369
Loc: Scotland
Quote:
I cannot help but think about simpler technologies we use to enhance our experience of life


Not so many years ago, speaking into a microphone and seeing one's words appearing on screen was only the province of science fiction.

Dragon NaturallySpeaking is now a normal part of life.
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#406464 - 12/21/09 11:09 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: TheAbysmal]
Zaranell Offline


Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 56
Loc: Arizona, USA
Originally Posted By: Vitaeviternus
I just cannot fathom not existing.

I think you can. Haven't you ever slept through a night without dreaming? Not existing would be the same thing, I imagine.

Personally, I would choose death over an eternity of fire.


Edited by Zaranell (12/21/09 11:09 PM)
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#406511 - 12/22/09 03:56 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Zaranell]
DryghtenShahara Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 33
Loc: UR
Just because you don't remember your dreams, it doesn't mean you did not dream. It is just a signal that you may want to better develop your dream recall. When such a portion of our lives is spent physically asleep, it is a shame to miss out on the experiences we have while in that state.

And for choosing death over ....... (fill in the blank).

Death is never the better choice.
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#406519 - 12/22/09 07:04 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: DryghtenShahara]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
Originally Posted By: DryghtenShahara
Just because you don't remember your dreams, it doesn't mean you did not dream. It is just a signal that you may want to better develop your dream recall. When such a portion of our lives is spent physically asleep, it is a shame to miss out on the experiences we have while in that state.

And for choosing death over ....... agonizing torture, violent mutilation, incomprehensible suffering, waking up to the sounds of your own screams because the pain is too much to stand.

Death is never the better choice.


I played your mad lib game, sir, and you were wrong. grin

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#406530 - 12/22/09 09:57 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: TheDegenerate]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
You forgot hellish nightmares where you are being chased by an unseen foe but cannot run, and when you try to scream, it comes out as an inaudible eek, then blood pours from your mouth...

Still, better than death. :P
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#406534 - 12/22/09 10:15 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: TheAbysmal]
Delta Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 6751
Loc: Nar
The Degenerate has a point and I don't doubt you understood it, but to add my own two cents- A nightmare or almost any degree of pain may be favorable to death for many. But I doubt anyone here lacks an understanding of a mercy killing or euthanasia. Death alone is surely preferable to five years of extreme unending debilitating cancer pain culminating in death anyway. Humans can be put into a state where they are mere pain receptacles, unable to think past the nausea, feel past the intense agony, even move or speak or do anything else but suffer. I can't imagine any of us would prefer a few more years of life like that to a simple, painless death on a high note.

As to a previous post, I think it's strange to be unable to fathom not exiting. We have all, at some point in time, not existed. Why should not existing again be any different?
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#406535 - 12/22/09 10:33 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Delta]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
Delta,

You make an excellent point, one I had wondered would come up or not. As far as mercy killings or euthanasia go... Again, I can only offer conjecture. I would not opt for it myself, nor would I deny it of another, even a loved one. In fact, if one wanted to die so certainly, and asked me to assist--and it were not illegal or detrimental to me--I would help.

Again, just conjecture. I have not suffered through terminal cancer, much less the torment of Biblical Hell. Likewise, my logical mind tells me that in the years of suffering through cancer or any number of terminal diseases, a cure could emerge at any moment. I would hate to miss that boat just because I was in pain.

It is a bit of a tautology, but I cannot fathom not existing. I could not when I did not exist. Now that I do, I cannot fathom going back to that state--certainly do not wish it, anyway. And, if I did wind up that way, I again would not be around to fathom it.

But... that is not how I meant it. I simply meant that I will not choose death.
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#406544 - 12/22/09 11:27 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: TheDegenerate]
DryghtenShahara Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 33
Loc: UR
I understand what you are saying and for many humans that is a logical answer. It is just not a point of view I share and that is fine, too.

I would still refuse to accept death.
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#406548 - 12/22/09 11:45 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: DryghtenShahara]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8269
...for many humans that is a logical answer.

Many humans choose it to be the only answer. wink
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"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


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#406551 - 12/22/09 11:55 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Phineas]
DryghtenShahara Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 33
Loc: UR
Very true.
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#406556 - 12/23/09 02:09 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Delta]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10573
Loc: England
>> Death alone is surely preferable to five years of extreme unending debilitating cancer pain culminating in death anyway. Humans can be put into a state where they are mere pain receptacles, unable to think past the nausea, feel past the intense agony, even move or speak or do anything else but suffer. <<


There are logical answers. And there are actual realities.

It is quite easy to think one can stand pain for the greater good. But when the pain is severe enough - far tougher men than anyone here have cried out to be relieved of the agony. At that point logic doesn't come into it.

Many here talk about "humans" as if they themselves aren't one.

It's a psychological flaw if anyone believes themselves completely impervious. The human will can be broken. Some people are tougher than others. But anyone can have their will broken - and severe, prolonged pain is a sure-fire way of doing so.

Even battle hardened Navy Seals or S.A.S Commandos have broken down under torture.

The really strong humans are the ones who understand the fragility of their own humanity.
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#406558 - 12/23/09 02:24 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Spelled Moon Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/25/08
Posts: 1691
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Rev_Strongbone
The really strong humans are the ones who understand the fragility of their own humanity.


tiki

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#406560 - 12/23/09 02:31 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: TECHNO]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10573
Loc: England
>> Death will in effect be redundant as any data saved in a secure location (like a back up hard drive) could be reproduced and replicated. <<

I have no reason to believe that the cybernetics you speak of will not happen. I think it will happen in time.

However, unless you are speaking of completely removing human nature you seem to be overlooking the fact that the one area where man's creativity knows no bounds is in his ability to create new ways of killing each other.

All prospect of this coming technology makes one wonder how wars of the future will be fought. Human nature being what it is.

Or as John Morlar in the film The Medusa Touch points out:

"We find out what powers the sun and we make bombs with it."

As the technology develops, so will new methods of killing and warfare.
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#406561 - 12/23/09 02:53 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Nemo]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Originally Posted By: Nemo

Today, they can steal your computer and the same day you can go out and buy another one and restore your files automatically.

When everything a thief can steal is cheap, crime will be less a concern, and there will consequently be fewer motivations for thievery.


But then YOU still have to pay for a new computer.

The value of the product they are stealing means nothing in some of these cases.The criminal mind is different.

The best teacher to a human,is physical pain.So if there were a way for them to feel immense pain as they were trying to steal your property(i.e.your property defending itself via major electric shock),they would be less likely to want to do so again.If they could merely sell it for less value than it was worthy,it merely prompts more stealing of more property,to get more money for their desired needs (drugs probably)

I agree with you that this is a good temporary fix.But as we invent new ways to prevent crime,the criminal evolves as well. . .

At least in my mind,immense physical (and well deserved) pain would be delivered unto those who try to take what isn't theirs,and leaves that lesson seared into their minds.

Simply put,they can either walk away with no stolen product and immense pain,
OR
with the stolen product (useless as it may be rendered)to use it for their own devices. coopdevil
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#406563 - 12/23/09 03:07 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: TheAbysmal]
Delta Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 6751
Loc: Nar
It's a fun bit of speculation to imagine one's self not existing. Honestly I find the prospect comforting, this God likes the notion of the world going on without him. Especially if bits and pieces of it remember him. Granted that's not what you meant, but it's a field of interest for me.

Back to the subject, there are plenty of reasons I'll choose death. Missing the cure boat is a classic irony but not one I need to worry about, simply because if I die and they find a cure the next day I won't be around to suffer the cruel twist. I am too selfish to live in absolute pain for the benefit of those who survive me. If they cared for me at all I doubt they'd even want to see me like that.

I'm all for a living will and DNR. I don't know if that's an unSatanic quirk in a Satanist or a common thing among people here.

Regarding the computer brain backup:

Of all the clever ways people find to preserve themselves, the brain back up is one of the most intriguing and compelling. It plays a major role in one of my sci-fi stories. But people keep mistaking the reliable long term preservation of themselves for a guarantee of rebirth or eternal life.

A backup of one's mind offers no promise that it will be reintegrated, no promise that you will come out the same person, no promise of anything but a computer file with your brain on it. To date, computer files tend to be far shorter lived than people, and more susceptible to corruption, theft, misuse and deletion than human brains. That should change, but darned if the possibilities aren't daunting: I once accidentally overwrote a file full of funny quotes my friends had said over the years. A very sad day, but nothing compared to the day I deleted my grandmother's brain. I really should have locked the damn thing. Not as bad as Uncle Sal's, seems I saved a game of "Yoshi's Island" over it and the poor guy keeps trying to lay eggs.

Anyhow, shit happens. It happens to live people and it will happen to preserved people. It would be a critical error to mistake any life extension technology for the infallible promise of eternal or even long life, and an ever greater error to act or think as though one were going to live forever.
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#406568 - 12/23/09 05:04 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Quote:
All prospect of this coming technology makes one wonder how wars of the future will be fought. Human nature being what it is.


Just as brutally as ever, with more ways to kill and be killed.

The two major causes of death in the future? War and accidents.
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#406632 - 12/23/09 07:20 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Delta]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Quote:
As to a previous post, I think it's strange to be unable to fathom not exiting. We have all, at some point in time, not existed. Why should not existing again be any different?


Yeah that orgasim I have with my girlfriend would sure get boring after a while. zombie
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#406634 - 12/23/09 07:23 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Quote:
It's a psychological flaw if anyone believes themselves completely impervious. The human will can be broken. Some people are tougher than others. But anyone can have their will broken - and severe, prolonged pain is a sure-fire way of doing so.


Exactly!

Each person has limits and those who are more in tune with their nature will be much more capable of survival than those who ignore it. Unlimited potential equates to the bullshit belief all are born equal. vomit All are not born equal and some have more potential than others.
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#406737 - 12/25/09 11:35 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Colonel Kurtz Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 192
Originally Posted By: Rev_Strongbone



Many here talk about "humans" as if they themselves aren't one.



tiki

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#406751 - 12/25/09 05:44 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Colonel Kurtz]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
The topic does concern transhumans, after all.

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#406772 - 12/26/09 12:31 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Nemo]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Well just because you can change the human body does not make one not human. Human nature will always remain the same.
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#406773 - 12/26/09 12:58 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Unknown]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8269

Trans- (prefix): From the Latin meaning across, over, or beyond.

Human nature will always remain the same.

Are you absolutely certain of this?


_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#406776 - 12/26/09 01:33 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Phineas]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Good question.

Time will tell.

I am speaking of that old feeling in the gut..the natural instinct of man. If you put a moron in a new body then guess what? He is still a moron.
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#407367 - 01/02/10 01:32 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Techno_Demon]
Techno_Demon Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 3
Wow, I left this thread for dead too early.

I would say in all of the life or death scenarios Magister Nemo described, I would undoubtedly choose to live. I suppose I should have been clear however what I meant by taking the meaning out of a vital existence. I do not believe that death gives my life meaning and I do want to live forever.I certainly enjoy the great party of life for the time being and want to continue to do so. I guess I was trying to say that living for all of eternity might get boring if we could do everything there is to do many times over,and might create some kind of situation where I'm miserable and can't end my misery. But then after reading the posts in this forum and thinking about it myself I realized I was being idiotic.I already enjoy doing many things over and over again and in a future where I could live forever, I could only imagine there would be an almost infinite number of things I could enjoy doing again and again.

To Vitaeviternus, what I found disagreeable about Kurzweil resurrecting his father was that Ray Kurzweil's father's consciousness has been dead for quite some time now. Just because there may someday be a man that looks like, acts like, and has similar memories to Kurzweil's late father, doesn't mean it will be the same person that already died.I also worry about this with my own future augmentation, like Hagen von Tronje pointed out, we can't exactly be sure that it will be the same stream of consciousness throughout the entire process.

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#407397 - 01/02/10 02:55 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Techno_Demon]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:
To Vitaeviternus, what I found disagreeable about Kurzweil resurrecting his father was that Ray Kurzweil's father's consciousness has been dead for quite some time now. Just because there may someday be a man that looks like, acts like, and has similar memories to Kurzweil's late father, doesn't mean it will be the same person that already died.


I must smile just a little at this. I hope you will shortly smile a little too as I explain.

If Kurzeil clones and installs the memories of his father, then the clone who awakens will see himself as Kurzeil's father.

He won't assume he might be "the same person".

He will remember that he is "the same person".

To demand that there be a continuity of identity (which is what you are looking for) is to assume that there must be a "ghost" who is the real Kurzweil's father who will be usurped by the "fake" father cloned with memories installed by Kurzweil.

It doesn't matter whether we call the "ghost" a "stream of consciousness" or "the same person" or by any other name you might choose.

If you are not your memories, then the "real" you must be something else.

And what would that be? wink

(And if the "real" you did not have your memories then that won't help either, as we can see in amnesia victims who have lost their memories and therefore their identity).

So if you are your memories and we create another physical body through cloning that has your memories, the clone who opens his eyes will certainly think that he is you, just as certainly as you do right now.

After all, isn't that how you know you are you right now - because you remember that you are you?

If not, then we are looking for a "ghost" of some kind by whatever name is applied to it.

And who is to say that if that is what you are assuming to be true, then that "ghost" would not be identical to the memories of the clone that opens his eyes?

All of this stems from not having these experiences in our current biological set up. Soon enough if they happen, then the assumptions of "ghosts" (the need for continuity of identity rather than simply the memories which create identity) will vanish.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, tells you it is a duck, and there is nothing else to look at to determine if it is the same duck or not, there you are.

You either go quackers or assume it is the same damn duck! grin

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#407400 - 01/02/10 04:25 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Nemo]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Then my question is just how much memory is needed to make you you ? Obviously anything such as Emotional Erotic Crystallization will play an important role in your development of an identity. What of those memories that seemed to have been lost or replaced by new data? Some may argue that the old data was insignificant and that is why it was replaced by the new data. Well the old data was important for the time being and it did help make you who you are. We obviously would not be capable of building a brand new computer or even improving the old ones if we simply tossed out data of the old and forgot everything about them. Memory from what I understand has very little capacity for storage so the old data is obviously deleted or overwritten with the new data. And the new data as well as some, what would seem to be very old data is all based upon association. So if we were to transfer data from one computer (brain) to the next and some of that data was lost then how much of “you” is actually preserved?

Another factor that is an important one to consider is the human brains potential to mistake some data as its own. For example you know that you know you placed your keys in your pocket yet you never did. Yet you have such a strong belief that you did. Memories can be misplaced, manipulated, misidentified, and lost. Also not to mention that if things such as psychic ability really does exist then distinguishing through the complexities of your own memories as well as other data entered would make it twice as complicated.

Perhaps you have seen the film Demolition Man where the criminals were confined to cryogenic-hibernation or simply put, immortality. (An aside note, what is up with all these films displaying immortality as if it is such a bad thing?) In the future they were given special skills that they had implanted in their memories so that on the day they were thawed out they would be capable of surviving in the future. So if memory is so easily transferred from one computer to the next then implementing additional data would not be so far-fetched. So if you give yourself the ability to recall how to build a rocket ship and yet you did not know how would that make you a better and more improved you or a different you?

Anyways these are just some fun questions.


Edited by Unknown (01/03/10 01:38 AM)
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#407479 - 01/03/10 12:56 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Unknown]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
I'm going to have to go with Unknown on this one.

If you're memories are what makes you,you,then riddle me this?

If your memories could be placed on a "backup file" and inserted into another organic body (virtually identical to yours here),in the event of your death,and that makes the new body "you". . .
What were to happen if this same process were to happen with you perfectly healthy and well.Your memories,standing right next to you in a new body.

Would there be two you's?

There is and can only be one you,everything else is just a carbon transfer.And if I MYSELF (in THIS consciousness) can't get pleasure out of a carbon copy of myself,then whey would I do that?To comfort others with the continuity of an artificial me?I'm too selfish for that wink
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#407492 - 01/03/10 04:08 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: ArtAche86]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
That is an interesting thought, and one even done up by Hollywood well. Suppose such a scenario did transpire.

Is it safe to say that both yous would not have, from that moment forward, the same exact experiences?

The point I am trying to make clear here is that both yous would only be you at that moment. From that point forward, you would both go on to have different experiences. At some point, neither you, nor the duplicate you would be the same person. The point at which you were both the same person would only be a common thread of experience manifest.

For instance, me and many people I know share memories of certain events. I can think of at least one other person, nearly exactly my age, who was sitting on the floor of his Philadelphia row home living room watching the Challenger explode on TV, thinking that the explosion was cool, not realizing the ramifications of the disaster at that age. Perhaps it is a stretch to say that we experienced these moments exactly the same, but suppose we did. Suppose there was some kind of memory technology that could prove we did. None of us would conclude we were the same person, even at that moment, would we? I think we would all conclude we were unique despite the common thread of experience.

You would only have a doppleganger for a short time. Eventually, your duplicate you would cease to be anything like you. You other you would not have parents, would not date the same person, may or may not have the same friends, and etc.

But, this is my opinion. What do you think now?
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Refuse to die.

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#407507 - 01/03/10 08:24 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: ArtAche86]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:
Would there be two you's?


Why not?

I am not suggesting that you would experience living simultaneously in two bodies any more than identical twins do.

However if two or more human beings with all of your memories up until yesterday woke up at the same time tomorrow each and every one of them would self-identify as being you.

If I copy a computer program and install it in three computers and start them all up, which is the "real" program?

All of them are.

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#407508 - 01/03/10 08:28 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: TheAbysmal]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Vitaeviternus, if I had read your post I would not have bothered with the answer I offered - which was the same idea.

Thank you.

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#407509 - 01/03/10 08:29 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Nemo]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
By the way this would be a great way to pay taxes but a terrible way to collect retirement benefits! grin

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#407510 - 01/03/10 08:31 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Nemo]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
Quite welcome, Sir.

If I had a nickel for every time I did that... smile
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#407512 - 01/03/10 08:33 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: TheAbysmal]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Then I would probably go broke! grin

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#407516 - 01/03/10 08:41 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
TECHNO Offline



Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 112
Loc: -31.955658,115.859928

I like to think that the violence of human nature will benefit us if mankind ventures into a (possibly) hostile cosmos.

As for 'completely removing human nature', while it is not the point I was trying to make with my post I do feel as though 'human nature' is born from 'the human condition' as we know it today and for the past several hundred thousand years. If 'what it means to be human' is evolved then surely the nature of that new being could evolve along with its physical form.

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#407591 - 01/04/10 11:31 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Nemo]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Originally Posted By: Nemo
If I copy a computer program and install it in three computers and start them all up, which is the "real" program?

All of them are.

The brain is the program here,and the computer is the human.

But this all metaphorical.Think literally.There is and can only be one "you". There may be many like you,but only one you.
When your consciousness dies,it is over.Though many artificial consciousnesses may thrive and continue on carrying the memories you earned,they are not you.You are dead.
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#407626 - 01/04/10 07:06 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: ArtAche86]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:
But this all metaphorical. Think literally.There is and can only be one "you". There may be many like you, but only one you.


It is easy to be fooled by the primitive viewpoints of our current culture.

Try this.

At some point in the creation of identical human twins the zygote splits into two different "individuals".

At that moment in time if you called the pre-split zygote "Joe" then in the next moment after the split there would be "Joe" and "Bob".

From that point in time forward they would be and remain genetically identical but would each have differing experiences, especially after birth.

Identical twins are nothing more than clones.

You really can't have it both ways.

Either the body is a machine and you are your memories, or you must posit some "ghost" in the machine that is "you".

If we build another machine and install the same memories then that machine is identical to "you" or you must be referring to something else that is "you" - the ghost in the machine.

Either you are your memories or you are a ghost with your memories.

(By the way, to complicate things I would consider any such "ghost" as just being another machine anyway).

If you do not remember who you are, you are not "you" but only someone who exhibits awareness of the world around you.

We also have real examples of this with people who have gradually or suddenly lost all of their memories - amnesia victims.

If you doubt what I am writing here, go talk with one of those victims or any member of their family who still cares about them.

You are your memories.

If they vanish, "you" do too.

Therefore, if those same memories reappeared somewhere, "you" would too.

If those memories reappeared in multiple bodies at the same time (like my computer program example) then there would be multiple "you"s that would do so as well.

From that moment forward, each person would begin to differ from the others as each created different new memories, but unless you are suggesting that there is something else then there are only your memories.

If you can identify what that something else "literally" is, I am all ears.

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#407631 - 01/04/10 08:42 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Nemo]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Originally Posted By: Nemo
you are your memories

If we build another machine and install the same memories then that machine is identical to "you" or you must be referring to something else that is "you" - the ghost in the machine.

If you do not remember who you are, you are not "you" but only someone who exhibits awareness of the world around you.

You are your memories.

If they vanish, "you" do too.

Therefore, if those same memories reappeared somewhere, "you" would too.

If those memories reappeared in multiple bodies at the same time (like my computer program example) then there would be multiple "you"s that would do so as well.

From that moment forward, each person would begin to differ from the others as each created different new memories, but unless you are suggesting that there is something else then there are only your memories.

I agree on all accounts.

I think I might have worded things incorrectly before.

I agree with the statment that "you are your memories".

What I am posing here,is that if we can agree that when our bodies die and our brain ceases to function,WE(this model of memories,intwined with organic matter,Nemo v1.0)dies as well.

We can place those memories in another body,identical,and the new and improved you would live on.But would the "original" or "first" you's consciousness truly transfer over,OR would it be over for us (the original) and the new, would carry on,holding the memories of the old?

What I am asking,more simply put,is would WE(the original) get personal benefit out of it,or would it simply be the pleasure of the new us?

Regardless,the entire concept is exciting.And I just had a thought,that might be more in your favor:
I just imagined what it would be like,if someone told me I were a clone,with transferred memories.Would I feel any less,"real"?No.

So,I see your point.I would prefer to switch parts out in the original,rather than risk the ceasing of my brain's function(and thus this life,we love so much),and sacrificing it over to a new version of myself.Wes v2.0 would be grateful,but Wes v1.0 wouldn't get much benefit,aside from not needing a legacy,but rather living "forever",through countless copies.
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#407639 - 01/04/10 09:42 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: ArtAche86]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
Magister Nemo's answer, I think, helps to remove what appears to be a dilemma. But, I want to chime in, too. smile

Consider what happens to someone who is rendered unconscious, whether he or she be totally knocked out by a head trauma, successful anesthetic procedure, or even by ingesting date rape drugs slipped into a drink. Much easier, of course, to consider it if you have ever been so rendered yourself.

What happens when someone goes unconscious? Notwithstanding amnesia, you would have memory of what lead up to unconsciousness, and what occurred after regaining consciousness, but nothing to say of when you were under. This of course, assumes you were rendered unconscious, not just paralyzed to experience surgery in painful detail as in anesthesia recall, for instance.

During that period... where are "you"?

Perhaps I am wrong. I am no scientist or anesthesiologist, but I have been rendered unconscious before. Maybe I did dream during that time or had some other experience, but no memory of it. I can put it on a time line, where pluses represent consciousness and underscores unconsciousness:

|+++++++++++++++++++__________________________++++++++++++++++++|

That time line does not read "I exist", "I do not exist", "I exist", or "I am alive", "I am dead", "I am alive", or perhaps more sensibly, To me, the time line could just have easily been this:

|+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++|

Eight hours of surgery, a minute on the mat, or waking up naked in a puddle of puke outside a dorm makes no difference. Complete continuity of memory. The only reason one would be aware that he or she were unconscious would be that continuity of memory that pointed to it. For that reason, the timeline does look like this, and more closely matches "I am alive" and "Whoa, I was out there for a minute, huh?":

|+++++++++++++++++++__________________________++++++++++++++++++|

So, let us take the first timeline and play with it a bit. This is Fred's timeline, where he was rendered unconscious by anesthesia:

|+++++++++++++++++++__________________________...

While Fred was unconscious, mad scientists mapped his memory with a sophisticated brain scan and inserted the memory map into...

Sue.

Both Fred and Sue are brought back from unconsciousness. Fred is feeling a bit groggy and has to go to the bathroom really bad, and Sue is wondering "What the F**K is going on here?!?"

Fred and Sue's timeline, their memory, both began as such:

|+++++++++++++++++++__________________________

To both of them, it would be not much different than this:

|+++++++++++++++++++

Upon waking, Fred and Sue are the same person, but it is quite clear in this--I hope, amusing--example that Sue is already moving away from being the Fred s/he was before, and so is Fred.

Fred:

|+++++++++++++++++++I-am-groggy-and-have-to-pee-really-badly

Sue:

|+++++++++++++++++++Put-yourself-in-Sue's-shoes

I think this also neatly raises a problematic issue: consent. Had Fred consented to the insertion of his memory into Sue, well...

You might think that it kinda points to your "ghost in the machine".

Suppose Fred consented to this procedure as a radical new approach to sex change. NuYu Inc. grew a Sue for Fred, conducted all the psychological evaluations, and etc., and implanted Fred into Sue. Well, the procedure is a smashing success, and Sue wakes up to his new body, overjoyed.

What of the Fred that donated his memories to the Sue?

He is still locked inside the Fred body he never liked, while the other copy of Fred is running around in Sue's body happy as a lark.

But, where is the "ghost in the machine"?

No "essence" or "ghost" of Fred left Fred to pair up with Sue, leaving Fred's body a lifeless husk. Fred is still very much alive, still unhappy in his male body, while Sue is a very happy "Fred" in his new female body. The only essence or ghost that transfered from Fred to Sue was his memories up to that point, and that transfer did not destroy Fred's memories upon lending Sue's.

Speaking metaphorically, I think it better holds that the thread of memory is the program and the brain/human is the computer.

And, what you are asking might be something like "who is running the program?" That might be your ghost in the machine.

Pages 91-95 of the Satanic Bible sheds a bit of light on that ghost, but then... I think it comes back to just what Magister Nemo stated: It would just be another machine.

I hope I do not come across as if I have it all figured out. This is certainly not my case. You may find it worthwhile, as I do, to examine the idea further than to close yourself to it entirely by basically stating, "Once you are dead, that's it. You're dead." Doing so might raise more questions than answers, but what do you prefer more, an unanswered question, or a wrong answer?

Douglas Hofstadter wrote a great book--a few, actually--that prods at this ghost in the machine: "I Am a Strange Loop". It digs into metaphor a bit, too. I think you would find it intriguing.
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#407720 - 01/05/10 04:20 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: ArtAche86]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:
...would the "original" or "first" you's consciousness truly transfer over...


What would "transfer over"?

There is your undefined "ghost".

Quote:
I just imagined what it would be like,if someone told me I were a clone,with transferred memories.Would I feel any less,"real"?No.


That's it exactly.

When the clone boots up with your former memories "he" will see himself as "you" 100%.

Now unless there is a "real you" that is something more ("ghost") then there is no issue here.

Additionally every time you have awakened from deep sleep or come out of general anesthesia you can note as a subjective experience how "you" "boot up" and come "online" as "you".

Sometimes when we awaken we are unaware for a moment where we are, when we are, and even who we are.

As an experience, this is what a clone with your memories starting up would experience.

Quote:
I would prefer to switch parts out in the original,rather than risk the ceasing of my brain's function(and thus this life,we love so much),and sacrificing it over to a new version of myself.


Staying conservative with personal survival makes perfect sense to me as well!!!

Glad you enjoyed this romp in the near future!

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#407722 - 01/05/10 04:29 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: TheAbysmal]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
That was a blast! laugh

Thank you!

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#407736 - 01/05/10 05:35 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Nemo]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
It was a pleasure discussing this with you and VitaeViternus!
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#407740 - 01/05/10 05:56 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Nemo]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
Thank you, and quite welcome. smile
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#407812 - 01/06/10 08:25 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: ArtAche86]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
I never said that I disagreed with Magister Nemo. I was simply identifying some of the issues that may come along with relying on memory transplant.

The issue here isn't about weather you are your memories or not. Obviously your memories make up your identity. The issue here is consciousness.

Scientists and psychologists cannot even agree on what consciousness is:

The Big Questions: What is consciousness?

What is consciousness? Study Aims to Settle Debate.

Not to mention your entire biological nature is tied into your memories. Memories are records of things you have done in THIS body. Really it is quite difficult to know the issues that may or may not arise once we tie our memory into a different biological network.
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#407834 - 01/06/10 03:55 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Unknown]
Midnight Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/27/09
Posts: 111
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Originally Posted By: Unknown
Memories are records of things you have done in THIS body.


What Unknown said made me think of virtual reality. If we can use our sensors to experience things while being in a virtual body are we creating these memories in our body or the virtual body? The memories are still ours but not theoretically made from our physical body.
I guess in a literal sense they are made using our physical body therefore they would be records of things you have done in THIS body. I will think a bit more on this!

This entire topic is so fascinating and thought provoking.

Hail Satan!
Midnight
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A man who dares to waste one hour of time has not discovered the value of life. - Charles Darwin

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#407851 - 01/06/10 06:41 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Midnight]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
Now that Unknown's remarked stirred the thought of virtual reality or a virtual body, read this again, and pay attention in between the parentheses. What distinction is there between a virtual body and the one you are in right now?

A useful subject to read up on, I think, would be abstraction:

http : // en . wikipedia . org/wiki/Abstraction_(disambiguation)

It is quite possible that you--the body you are in right now--is just a layer of abstraction over possibly many other layers of abstraction. You could be built up of several layers of "you", so to speak, and there would be nothing to prevent you from adding additional layers of abstraction, such as the virtual body you suggested.

This would not make you any less you, of course.

Suppose you wore or had embedded in you some device that translated your spoken English to perfect Mandarin Chinese. Suppose you wore or had a device that sat as a middle man between your thoughts and your Central Nervous System, that when you attempted to write in English or type on an English keyboard, it translated your intended movements to produce Mandarin Chinese writing and typing movements. Even when you viewed it, a similar device translated the Mandarin Chinese images to their English equivalents.

As far as the rest of the world would be concerned, you spoke Mandarin Chinese, while the experience to you would be of English. Weird, perhaps, and a bit far fetched of current technology, but suppose it could be done. That would be an abstraction of you.

Take two pens and bridge them together with duct tape a some kind of dowel (maybe another pen), such that when you write with one, the other also touches paper and leaves the same marks.

Which version of the text that this double-pen-thingy produces on paper did you write? Both, right? Only, one is "your" handwriting, and the other is a sloppier version on account of the duct tape flexing and leverage of the bridge to the other pen. Same words, both your handwriting, but different.

For that matter, the brain being the most obvious place we record our memories... What distinction is there between our brains and a notepad and pen for instance? Would a journal that you kept be an extension or abstraction of you? I think so. It is just a layer of abstraction. Now the memory is stored on paper, and the brain points to where you wrote it. Your brain probably also remembers what you wrote, too, but the information retrieval is now different. Rather than all your neurons firing to produce the image and/or echo of the memory itself, they more likely fire to produce the image and/or echo of where you wrote the memory.

A memory of a memory. Abstraction.

Writing something down (creating a memory on paper) and remembering (in your brain) that "I wrote that here" is not much different than the abstraction a computer programmer performs by mapping a class's data members to their corresponding database tuples. It is just an abstraction or mapping of one layer over another. Parchment and pigment over hippocampus and amygdala.

I agree. It is a fascinating subject. smile I am eager to see what else comes of this discussion.
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#407883 - 01/06/10 11:20 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: TheAbysmal]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Quote:
What distinction is there between a virtual body and the one you are in right now?


Well it all depends on what you mean exactly by "virtual body".

The virtual body would be idle without my biological body controlling it. A virtual body is a program a natural body is a biological organism. Is it possible to be alive in a virtual body and yet remain dead in a biological body? If so then would that merit that consciousness can be transferred? I think that in order to remember anything you must first be conscious. If you die and your memories are transplanted into another body then that biological organism is not the conscious entity you once were. It is an entity that has now replaced you and has identified your memories as its own.

In any event it does give a whole no meaning to the words "Here and Now". wink
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#407973 - 01/07/10 07:29 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Unknown]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
I see what you mean, Unknown. It might depend on what I mean by virtual body, too, as you state.

Depending on how you look at your body--virtual or otherwise--it might not. If it were merely a layer of abstraction over "you"--whatever that "is"--it might not be too much a stretch of the imagination that one could replace it totally.

Going back to my computer-ish example earlier, where a programmer maps the classes of a program over an underlying database... Suppose later on, that programmer decides to upgrade the application, but retain the underlying database, mapping new classes to it. From the perspective of the end users of the application, it might look like an entirely different application. Perhaps it even presents the same underlying data in entirely new and novel ways, even making the underlying data appear to be different.

Essentially, it would appear that all the data were transfered to this new application. Really, in this example, it is not the case at all. The underlying data, and the database in which it resides, is the same. It just has a new layer of abstraction over it where the old one once was, now discarded.

The more interesting part, to me, in this example is that I conveniently have a programmer that makes the connection between the classes and the database. In my earlier mad-scientist/sex-change example, there was yet an intervening third party.

When I was born, well... Who or what made that connection? I cannot conveniently point at anything now. Or, could I try?

Maybe I somehow made that connection without my knowing it. In the same way that my subconscious works now without my immediate awareness of it, it worked then, adding on top of it a layer of abstraction that my conscious accepts as "me".

I cannot say I entirely understand such a dynamic, but I can try. It is not too difficult for me to think of a single system that can also be viewed as many cooperative systems. Going with computer examples--sorry, it is what I know--hierarchical state machines come to mind.

A State Machine--also known as DFAs, NDFAs, and etc--is a programming paradigm where the "machine" that has a set of possible states, a set of possible inputs, and a set of possible outputs. From its starting state, it waits for some kind of input. Depending on the input, it will generate an output. In a DFA (deterministic), from any given state, any given input will generate any number of outputs, but change to only one possible new state (which could be the same state). Also, a State Machines output could be an input, to itself, or to another machine.

It is easy to see that these State Machines can be strung together into a larger machine, inputting and outputting between each other, the sum of these machines being also a machine that accepts inputs and produces outputs based on its collective state.

Now, I cannot find a good image on Google to help depict what I am talking about, but these can be strung together in such a way that one machine has no knowledge of another except through a controller or governor machine. "Modeling Software with Finite State Machines: A Practical Approach" by [Many Authors] (on Amazon) is among the best books I have read on the subject. Google images is littered with overly complicated diagrams and not one good one from that book. This is close to what I mean, if not overly simplistic:



There is a lot going on inside both master and slave, but slave does not know who or what is consuming its outputs. It just outputs by signaling its state. Master, on the other hand, knows what is going on, and from time to time, tells slave what to do by outputting inputs to slave.

So... I can guess it is possible that, upon birth, master (subconscious) issued an input to slave (my conscious) to say "this is your body". And, my conscious acknowledged it ever since.

Of course, it is just a guess of how it might work, analogously, not an answer. It still leaves me with questions, questions that might not even need asking! (Maybe Hollywood's "Avatar" is worth seeing? The previews looked interesting.)
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#408073 - 01/08/10 07:56 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: TheAbysmal]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Wow, basic computer engineering class all over again, finite state machines, Karnaugh Maps, and such and such.

This topic is getting a bit insane in its structure, which is neither bad nor good, just strange.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#408084 - 01/08/10 10:13 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Discipline]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
I was debating on taking it even further with the finite state machines, too. I could not find a good diagram that tied a couple of the master/slave things together under another master. But, I realized I might need to just shut up before everything becomes computer analogies.

And, anyway, I need to take this subject in small bites, too.
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#408247 - 01/10/10 02:39 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
TECHNO Offline



Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 112
Loc: -31.955658,115.859928
While I do agree with you to an extent on the the fact that human nature will likely prevail (in so far as I am certain war and conflict will remain necessary), I was reading an article earlier today on what has been dubbed 'drone porn' and one particular phase struck me as relevant to this discussion.
The phrase used was 'the shifting paradigm of modern warfare'. What this was referring to was the increased use of unmanned drones by well equipped military forces, driven by the U.S. primarily as a way of strategically reducing the enemy's capabilities by destroying their assets and infrastructure and also creating a large body count on the enemy side while reducing 'friendly' casualties.

So... if we include all the aspects of the enlightened discussion which has gone on in this thread we could perhaps hypothesize that winning warfare (between cyber-humans at least) could become less about attrition of enemy forces and more about gaining overall strategic/political/economic/ideological dominance without the need for wholesale slaughter.

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#408257 - 01/10/10 04:59 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: TECHNO]
Maupassant's Offline


Registered: 01/08/10
Posts: 35
Originally Posted By: TECHNO
we could perhaps hypothesize that winning warfare could become less about attrition of enemy forces and more about gaining overall strategic/political/economic/ideological dominance without the need for wholesale slaughter.


That has already become reality, mostly when it comes to developed countries. But take a look at North Korea - all they had to do was to put a trade embargo on these guys. That makes economy a weapon of warfare, one that's more effective than conventional weaponry.

It would seem that standard warfare is only a necessity when the enemy has no economy and infastructure to sabotage[?]

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#408274 - 01/10/10 09:31 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Maupassant's]
Autodidact Offline


Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 3
Depends on your objective.

If all you're willing to commit to is a fourth-grade slappy-slappy fight, you can play nice.

If your goal is to take the territory, the best method is still to just kill people and put boots on the ground. (See Kuwait, 1990 - they had an economy and infrastructure)

Human nature does not change.

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#408277 - 01/10/10 09:45 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Autodidact]
Maupassant's Offline


Registered: 01/08/10
Posts: 35
Sure, but it's not territory that's sought after nowadays - it's information and resources [and with those you just hire private companies that mine resources in undeveloped nations]. I agree that the final push is to be made by military force, but how easy it gets when the enemy is sabotaged economically.

No country can wage war if they're bankrupt, so perhaps the future goals of warfare won't be to take over the enemy, but to buy him out: Economy Wars.

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#408302 - 01/10/10 04:48 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Maupassant's]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Some of the poorest countries in the world have 7 year olds handling AK-47's right this instant.

All wars are for power.That is all it is.
It's chess with human pieces,using pawns,and waiting to see who pulls out their queen first.

Money=Power
Land=Power
A new allied country(which equates to more foreign consumers)=Power

But in truth,we'd kill each other even if there weren't a sliver of legitimate reasoning.
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#408317 - 01/10/10 06:25 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: ArtAche86]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
ArtAche86,

I do not entirely agree.

I certainly do not discredit that money can contribute to power, any more than the ownership or control of land and the installation of a acquiescent government or allies. Neither do I disagree than man would kill man over illegitimate reasoning.

What I am suggesting is that this is not power over those things, but those things having power over people in most cases.

Money, land, and allies are, of course, potentially good things to have, but these are just tools to meet ones ends. When these tools become the ends in themselves, clearly, the perceived owner is powerless in their pursuit.

Of the smart few, it crosses their minds that with much money, land, allies... any resources, they invariably attract danger to themselves that others would then seek it from them.

I think real power stems from seeing and avoiding that threshold, and/or barring that, actually having the ability to keep what one has gained.

I think ownership is nothing more than an agreement. The moment one breaks that agreement, one has laid claim upon said item, ownership is up for grabs. Maintaining the agreement that "this is mine"... That is power.

I think the trick to achieving real power is having just enough that I am comfortable and happy, but little enough that scavengers and predators look to rob the guy that has more than me. In short, be no threat where none is needed.

Wars are for power, but I think they are an error of the victors. All war does is (potentially) move the vacuum that attracts the powerless from one location to the next.

Money is a tool to barter for the things you want or need. Power is being able to get what you want or need without money.

Land and allies are a tool in the same.

If anyone thinks they own land--at least in the US--I invite you to not pay your taxes and see how long you "own" it.

That might seem like the government has "power" to take your land, but really... You never owned it. Not unless you had the power of persuasion to keep it. Guns are rather persuasive. Do you have more guns than the US government? If not, the US government is more persuasive than you.

If anyone thinks that they have allies, I invite you to consider that your interests and their's will diverge. At that point, you will be left to persuade them that your best interests are their best interests.

Persuasion is real power. Being able to convince others of what they want or need, even installing that need, is real power. What one uses in persuasion is just means.

Who is really in power in a banana republic scenario? The people that produce the bananas, the people that control the bananas, the people that want bananas, or they people that convince everyone, "You want bananas. They want bananas. They have bananas."?
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#408321 - 01/10/10 07:05 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: TheAbysmal]
Maupassant's Offline


Registered: 01/08/10
Posts: 35
ArtAche86,

I of course agree that wars are waged for power, but in the economical sense they're totally meaningless: How much can the US gain, and how much did they already lose during their "war on terror"? In the long run war always means less money then you begin with.


Vitaeviternus,

This balance you're writing about, between having enough but not too much - I'd call it wisdom first, and a tool to put oneself outside the scope of political power second.

If people don't want what you have, they won't try to persuade you into anything. Also when you have enough, you won't have to persuade anyone to give you more. That's something that makes you completely autonomous, at least when it comes to power plays.

Wars are for power, but does that word have the same meaning as 70 years ago? Sure, if you win you get territory, but the information still flows freely, and which of the two is more important?

And as humans will start to progress beyond their innate limitations, be it by transhumanism or other means, information will become the biggest resource.

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#408345 - 01/11/10 01:59 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Maupassant's]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Originally Posted By: Maupassant's
ArtAche86,

I of course agree that wars are waged for power, but in the economical sense they're totally meaningless: How much can the US gain, and how much did they already lose during their "war on terror"? In the long run war always means less money then you begin with.
For the country and its countrymen,yes.For the powers at be (the key players who started them),NO.

And as humans will start to progress beyond their innate limitations, be it by transhumanism or other means, information will become the biggest resource.

And we will use it to find new and exciting ways to create even more powerful weapons to kill each other with.He who holds the biggest and most effective gun,has a great deal to bargain with over another person's life.And people will give up almost ANYTHING when they value their lives.Self-preservation isn't just the number one law,it can also be used against people. . .

To Vitaeviternus

I agree with much of what you say,but those things I mentioned (money,land,fresh consumers equalling more income) are our means of power as of now.
Power will hold many faces,but these are it for the moment.Money is just paper.But having it makes someone powerful because of the means at which you can use it."Money's not everything that having it IS"




Edited by ArtAche86 (01/11/10 02:00 AM)
Edit Reason: HUMAN error
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#408351 - 01/11/10 04:56 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: ArtAche86]
Maupassant's Offline


Registered: 01/08/10
Posts: 35
Originally Posted By: ArtAche86
And we will use it to find new and exciting ways to create even more powerful weapons to kill each other with.


If the whole point of human development is to create new weapons that that's not much of a transhumanism.

You are of course right about violence when it comes to the present state of affairs, but let's consider how will this change when transhumanistic ideas become reality.

Will survival in the biological sense still be an issue? With greatly extended lifespan, with no need to "live while we're still alive", no haste, and (if postgenderism ideas come true) no gender differences what would you fight for/against?

For power, one might answer. But you gain nothing by controling a nation, or a continent - unless it turns you on that you can command a "cultural revolution".

As a specie we already posses technology that outdistances our wisdom - balancing that, that would give power. The kind that one has over oneself.

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#408362 - 01/11/10 07:46 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: ArtAche86]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 995
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: ArtAche86

And we will use it to find new and exciting ways to create even more powerful weapons to kill each other with.


Although I realize that this wasn’t exactly what you are talking about, I just wanted to point out the often overlooked fact that war, historically, has also brought about advances in much more “positive” realms of innovation as well. Often, things such as medical science and technology related to transportation, get a major boost as a result of war. War seems to be one of the best motivations to innovate, in many areas of human endeavor.

It could be argued that without it, the human race would experience a lot more stagnation and complacency, in regards to technological advancements.
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#408364 - 01/11/10 08:01 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: John Prophet]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2153
Yes.

And, war is merely another avenue of human expression. I'm not being sarcastic; war is humanity's ultimate method of displaying one of life's most basic qualities: violence.
The act of giving life is a violent act. Taking life is violent. Life itself creates, and destroys. Oftentimes there is a little bit of both in any given event.

And not all wars are fought with physical weapons. Nor are they always obvious.
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"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#408366 - 01/11/10 08:41 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Techno_Demon]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Life extension is something I have been interested in since I was a teenager. It began when I read Life Extension: A Practical Scientific Approach, by Durk Pearson.

This subject has been brought up on this forum numerous times, and I do not wish to repeat what has already been said, but I have never understood the idea that a significantly increased lifespan would somehow decrease the quality of one&#8217;s life, or decrease the value of life. I have always thought the meaning of life was to go as long as you could without dying. Obviously, not everyone agrees.
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#408447 - 01/12/10 02:35 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: John Prophet]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Originally Posted By: John Prophet
It could be argued that without it, the human race would experience a lot more stagnation and complacency, in regards to technological advancements.


Truer words,have never been spoken. . .or maybe they have.
Regardless,they are true words!
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#408473 - 01/12/10 12:25 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: TheAbysmal]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
I cannot help but think of your analogy as in Greater Magic. The celebrant is the master and he gives command unto the slave.

What is fascinating to think about is if that could be looked at as your consciousness traveling or transcending beyond between the ears.
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#408514 - 01/12/10 05:38 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: John Prophet]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Quote:
It could be argued that without it, the human race would experience a lot more stagnation and complacency, in regards to technological advancements.


Agreed!

I just stumbled on an article posted on Magister Svengali's blog and thought it related quite well:

Will Durant: What is Civilization?
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#408540 - 01/12/10 09:47 PM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: John Prophet]
Zaranell Offline


Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 56
Loc: Arizona, USA
Originally Posted By: John Prophet
It could be argued that without it, the human race would experience a lot more stagnation and complacency, in regards to technological advancements.



If you don't want to watch the whole thing, just skip to 5:05. It pretty much proves what John said.
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#421043 - 05/12/10 08:02 AM Re: Satanism and Transhumanism [Re: Techno_Demon]
Private Offline


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 1
Loc: Taipei
...


Edited by Magister Frost (05/12/10 04:13 PM)
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