So the mother of my best friend's boyfriend died on Christmas, this guy that I hated with a passion (who used to be my store's manager) died the day after, and there have recently been a couple of celebrity deaths. Personally..I'm sick of it. Not because these people died, but because I have to hear and read a bunch of sentiments from people who barely knew these people and really don't care.

Is it so evil to not speak on someone's death because it doesn't concern you and you don't care? Now the only person I really feel bad for is my best friend's boyfriend. His mother was sick for a while, yet a surprise brain tumor was what took her out and no one was expecting that. They'd been waiting for her to die of other causes, but obviously not so soon, on Christmas no less. She was just fine a few days before when my friend went to visit her. Such a thing is sad because I know the people personally and the death was a natural cause. The manager I mentioned brought it upon himself and his stupidity eventually became too big for him to get a grip on. No great loss to humanity I can assure you. I suppose one could feel sorry for those who actually liked/loved him but seeing as though I don't know anyone who does I can't honestly give any sympathy..nor do I feel obligated to. Darwinian candidates don't really get much sympathy from me.

I never care much when celebs die (except for special cases) and I hate all the crap that comes with it. "RIP..They were great...etc" Quite often the person died due to things they brought upon themselves (eating disorder issues, drugs, gang involvement, whatever) and of course it's in bad taste to mention that had the person been a little smarter they still would have been alive. They become legendary due to people mourning the loss of someone they never actually had, people who just want to have something to say, and those all too important "do gooder" types who love to offer their "sympathy" and their "hearts" to the families of these people, knowing the second they stop speaking or typing, they won't give a rat's ass. Freak accidents and such things are indeed sad, but I can't really mourn for someone I don't know, especially if they brought it upon themselves.

RIPs surely won't be given as I don't think it's possible to not rest in peace, my heart won't "go out" to the families because I don't know these people and my heart has better use elsewhere, and you'll never catch me saying that most hated phrase "they died too soon". No one dies too soon. Whenever you died, apparently that was when you were supposed to. Life isn't promised and there's nothing saying you'll live until you're old. 67, 28, 33, 45, whenever..you can go at any time and although it may be sudden, it's certainly not too soon.

Now don't get me wrong, if you are truly moved in some way by a person's death, then by all means lend your sympathies..but don't just regurgitate emotionless banter because it's what is expected. I'd rather not say anything at all if my honest personal opinions on the person or situation may offend

>> I have to hear and read a bunch of sentiments from people who barely knew these people <<


What? Just like you've posted this rant here now.

One does not have to know an artist or a scientist personally to know that their death is a great loss to the world.


>> No one dies too soon. Whenever you died, apparently that was when you were supposed to. <<


Supposed to, as decreed by whom or what?

My favorite is when a teen dies. Sad, yes, but it drive me F'ing crazy to see all these teeny boppers on their facebooks and myspaces having their "heart go out" to their "best friend" (funny how friendships suddenly became retroactively stronger following ones death.) Then come all the "in memory of" tattoos. Its just insulting that these people use the death of an individual as a means for siphoning off attention for themselves.

I understand your sentiment about not being particularly moved by the death of individuals that you either don't know or simply don't care about. I know how that is, but I've also felt sad about hearing of the loss of people who have contributed great things to the world. And in regards to our "hearts going out" to those who have lost someone.... I'm not ashamed to say that I have indeed felt empathy for those who have lost a loved one (hell, even a pet). Death sucks. Yes, there are many who deserve it, and then there are those who certainly don't.

The quoted statement above, however, is the biggest load of bullshit I've read all day thus far. There are many people that I have known where I feel that it would be appropriate to say that regardless of the age of death, it will always be too soon. Anyone who would dare tell me to my face that the people I've lost died when they were supposed to and none too soon should probably duck and cover.

It's the natural course of things. As with animals, humans, plants, all living things. To me that phrase indicates that they were supposed to live for an outlined amount of time, and fell short of that. You die when you are supposed to, otherwise it wouldn't have happened. Nature has a way of keeping checks and balances and when it's time for you to go, it's time. Just because we as people feel death should come when one is old, accomplished in whatever pleasures and fields they set out for, ready for it, etc..it doesn't mean the person died before their time. Now I do believe certain factors can quicken things, such as drug use or something of the sort, but you die when it's time for you to, despite what your loved ones may think.

Surely you may want the person to live a long long life, but often that just doesn't happen. To me they died before you were ready, they died too soon for YOU, but they did not die "too soon"

So I suppose that criminals who indiscriminately kill innocent people are just working on behalf of nature?

Yeah, ok.

I think Witch Bruja responded accurately, but I was just curious...

Are you a determinist? Or a fatalist perhaps?

Are you saying that it's nature that decides or the individual?

If someone has a self-destructive lifestyle, their demise will come because it was their lack of responsibility, their choices that did them in. It just sounds like you think it was "written in the cards" by... something.

Who's to say? Not me surely, but it could be just that. Freak accidents, random violence and other things may be sudden, and they may be shocking especially when some situations could have been prevented but I certainly can't say that they shouldn't have happened. I had a friend when I was a child, who died when he was walking onto a platform at his back door and it broke. The platform was a concrete slab, and it landed on his neck, a freak accident type thing and he was just a child. Even as a child I believed that things happen because they're supposed to..it's just the way of things. Sure I missed him and even now I feel sorry for his family, as his death sent his grandmother into depression (it was her porch he fell from) and she later died. Do I think they died "too soon"..no. There was nothing to indicate they were supposed to live longer than they did, did they die too soon for those around them? Of course.

>> Who's to say? Not me surely, but it could be just that. Freak accidents, random violence and other things may be sudden, and they may be shocking especially when some situations could have been prevented but I certainly can't say that they shouldn't have happened <<

Why not?

Do you believe it should be left up to divine authority?

You must be fairly young or just pompous.

A person having suffered the death of someone important to them would be able to comprehend how death could have been avoided given the correct circumstances.

Death is not as simple as just blowing it off as "it was just his time" to ease your ego. Of course it is easy to say and gives you the reputation of being the apathetic ass (to your enjoyment or not) but it does not make it accurate or desired.

That would imply I believe in some god-like entity that personally deals with death and birth..that I don't. But in nature, all living things die. We as humans don't die like wild animals due to technology and other things, and I think nature allows for that. Instead of us dying from being hunted or whatever, we die of other things more suited to our environment. I think we have the potential to die from a number of things, but the choices we make and the things we do narrow down the possibilities, these choices coincide with other happenings in our environment and what happens from there happens. This would include freak accidents and such. It's just that normally our deaths are more convoluted than the demise of a wild animal and we have the intellect to give it deeper thought than a wild animal would, but I don't see it any differently.

>> This would include freak accidents and such. It's just that normally our deaths are more convoluted than the demise of a wild animal and we have the intellect to give it deeper thought than a wild animal would, but I don't see it any differently. <<


But you specifically said "Supposed to die" - as in, by decree.

>> "Nature has a way of keeping checks and balances and when it's time for you to go, it's time."

Sounds pretty godlike to me...

Fatalism is just a means of taking responsibility for ones own existence out of their hands. (Not unlike what most theistic religions attempt to do.)

Because rarely does one know all the factors. I do think things happen because they are supposed to. As to why they're supposed to and all..I have no clue. Some may see it as a divine power thing but I think that's just a way of giving an answer to a question humans have never known. People never really know the "why" in such situations. I think I mentioned it in another post. I think death is a factor of nature, and for humans, nature adapts to our environment. An antelope dies due to a predator, a bad decision, etc, we die from more "advanced" and/or detailed things because we aren't living in an environment were we can be taken out as easily. For this reason I think when we die and whatever we die from, it is supposed to happen..it's just how things go. Obviously I can't prove it, it's just my take on things.

I certainly could have worded things better, or maybe explained them a bit more, but that's just my opinion on death in general. Everyone has their view on it, as it's the one thing all people have given thought to at some point because it affects everyone at some point.

And regarding God, I see it as nature and all the various parts of it that we know and don't know. God is what people use to explain things they can't explain, everything from how humans got here, to earthquakes and volcanoes. I don't think there's some force personally concerned with us, but a force that's just the way of things, impersonal and not "intelligent" in the sense some would think. It's everything, everywhere, all the time and it's just what is. It's the "shit" in Shit Happens..not something personally watching us or anything else for that matter, it's just what causes the things that are set in motion, the reason it stays in motion, and the reason it ends.

>> I do think things happen because they are supposed to.

Who says they are supposed to? I don't mean to just be an echo here, but it sounds like you are personifying nature and giving it a will and ability to destine events. Like there's some "plan" Would that be an accurate assessment?

>> I do think things happen because they are supposed to. <<


I ask again: as decreed by whom, or by what?

Are you familiar with the concept of mastery of the earth? And more importantly, what the parameters of the concept might be?

As far as bereavement of the deceased is concerned, let me offer you some advice. Either take it or don't take it but here it is all the same: empathy for the human condition is essential in successful application of lesser magic.

Some tough Satanists are missing this point.

A plan would mean that nature is actually paying attention. I don't think it is, but I think things just happen because they happen and it's just a step in a sequence of other occurrences.

For instance if I were to die due to my house collapsing on me. It's not as simple as "the house fell down". All the factors that went into it (termites eating the wood, weather damage, me ignoring these things or being unaware of them, the fact that one usually spends the most time at home, etc) would map out the reason I died. There was a series of events that led to the house falling in on me and even though some may see it as a freak or random occurrence, it wasn't really. The house falling in was just another part in the sequence of things that happen, I happened to be there. I don't feel I would be "taken before my time" because no one guaranteed a certain life span and no one knows for sure what was set into motion and had been going on before I met my demise. Everything is a sequence of happenings and sometimes people get involved and experience negative outcome because of it.

I don't think nature "designed" it personally for me, but things happen. There was no "plan", it was just that the many factors that played into that event caused my death..so it indeed was my time. My time was just another step in that scenario..it was just supposed to go with all the other things that went on. To say nature has an actual plan means you can be spared or doomed and I just don't see that as the case at all. Who deems the "supposed to"? I don't know..there are many things we don't have the answers to and can't figure out, it's why religion is so popular. I personally don't think anyone dishes out the "supposed to", it's just a factor of things that happen but I don't feel that such things are accidents..it's just what is.

The thing is, if you had taken care of your house and it didn't fall on you, you would not necessarily then have been hit by a car because it was "your time". Final Destination is just a movie.

The point is, in death, as in life, we shoulder much of the responsibility. True, there can always be unforeseen circumstances beyond our control; but, the choices we make do impact how long we live. There is no book of life or death.

Another thing to think about is that this is a forum populated by Satanists. Things such as luck, the fates or kismet may seem far from the realm of outside deities to outsiders; but, to us, they are the same. ANY force, personage or influence outside ourselves given allowance to affect us beyond our choice is anathema. The difference between praying and believing in luck, or that if it is supposed to be, it will be, is strictly semantic.

There is no reason to feel the need to emote over something that does not affect you, true. However, it is expected that a self-possessed person would feel the loss of anyone who brought them benefit or enjoyment. I felt grief when Jimmy Stewart died. Why? His work brings me joy. I feel nothing when someone who has no influence in my life dies. To do so would be pathological. Some celebrities come and go without my notice. Relatively obscure people may affect me more if I have had some positive interaction with them. So, if someone grieves over someone, so be it. I do not know the impact the death has on anyone other than me. As for teens, they are walking hormones.

Ha, point taken.
I don't think you can cheat death, and I certainly don't think death get's pissed if you avoid it, so it creates something else to take you out. This would go back to conscious entities working for or against you.

While typing this I (think at least) saw what others were asking as to the "supposed" thing. My opinion is that, everything is a series of happenings everything from the ones we create to the ones we have no hand in. These series cross with others and go in all sorts of directions and in these many crossings, death is bound to happen as death itself is just another addition to the series. This is just a natural thing and nature doesn't write what will happen, these things just happen within nature's law.

Now having said that, saying that something is supposed to or not supposed happen is rather pompous and I do take that back. I do think death is just a factor of various happenings crossing at some point. Sometimes humans just get caught in an unfavorable crossing whether we put ourselves there or not. I obviously can't say for certain that something is supposed to, or not supposed to happen, however I still don't think it's possible for someone to die too soon. I think someone can die too soon for those who will mourn, but not just too soon in general.

There is no supposed to.If things were "supposed to" happen,then you believe in pre-destination,which is a major concept of christianity.

People live and they die.That is the end of it.It simply is.

If you believe that people are "supposed to die" at the hands of "nature",take a stroll through Compton,CA with a swastika on,and see if nature saves you for your pre-destined death date via "choking on corn dog" in Maryland when you're 60.

DT: Perhaps the trick to understanding your point - is in realizing that the descriptor "Nature" is process used as noun, or a nominalisation, or even goes as far as anthropomorphizing. So, where we might say something like: "Nature thinks X, or cares about Y..." this could be more clearly stated as "natural forces or processes are utterly indifferent towards our personal desires, but, we can decrease the probability of our eventual death by doing X and Y. However, there are unforeseeable events that will be influential towards our inevitable demise. Cheers

Well..I do believe that stupid life forces, human or animal, usually tend to die due to their own stupidity and bad judgment. And if I was that stupid I think that would just be nature's way of thinning the population by way of me getting my brains blown out. It sure as hell would have been "my time" to go, and the only shocking thing would be that I had even lived long enough to make that final bad decision

Thank you.

Now I do not have to ask the same question!

Substitute God and God's will for "nature" and "natural" and your quote becomes...



Everything is "natural" including every medical technological breakthrough that ever has been or will be.

Think it through and you'll see what I mean.

If not you, then you are surrendering that option to another.

You are the only one who ever can say.

You do it all the time.

Every time you look both ways before crossing a street.

Every time you were exposed to fatal diseases that you were vaccinated for.

Every time you didn't fall asleep at the wheel of your car.

Every time you did not flick off the policeman in traffic.

"Cheating death" is the full time occupation of anyone who values living.

I could not disagree more.

"Life is the great indulgence. Death the great abstinence."

Death is my enemy.

It should be the enemy of anyone who understands these things.

I challenge you to go past these cultural clichés and look at the underlying assumptions.

That is a large part of what Satanism is actually about.

If you do so, you will enrich your understanding and enjoyment of the world.

You might even live longer.

You can lead a horse to water...

If you're just criticizing the cliche use of phrases like "taken before his time" or "died too young", because they can applied to virtually any obituary (and beg the question of when was the "right" or "too late" time to die), then I concur. Though I don't see the point in getting wrapped in all these philosophical notions like fate and predetermination.

I agree that many people waste their time on mourning the deaths of celebrities and blow their actual care for that said individual(s) way out of proportion.

And of course there are many detestable, despicable wastes of existence who will NEVER get any of my sympathies when they're dead. I'll never, for a second, mourn people who have done extremely terrible and screwed-up things throughout their lives to others and/or themselves. That just seems asinine.

But.....

I don't agree that one should refrain from expressing their concerns or sympathies to friends/acquaintances/colleagues/etc. who have lost people in their lives that were decent human beings that showed consideration, compassion, loyalty.....only because he or she didn't know them.

Life guarantees NOTHING. But the universe isn't out to say who's next on the list to die, and when the appropriate time is. Predetermination of life and it's duration isn't a logical concept; if that were the case, nobody would probably even give a fighting chance to live another day to see what mysteries lie ahead in the future, no matter how close or far it may be.

Point taken.

I think some people have died before their time, even celebrities.

I lamented not hearing new songs on Freddie Mercury's voice. I would have enjoyed more shows with the Crocodile Hunter.

And I would definitely love to read a couple more books by Anton LaVey.

Frank Zappa comes to mind. I think George Carlin should have gotten a few more years too.

Schubert wasn't the only composer to leave behind an unfinished symphony.

On the other hand, my paternal grandmother hung on for years babbling incoherently, unable to recognize anybody around her.

To me it's obvious that if nature has it's checks and balances that ensures that people die when it's their time, then we may need to send in the auditors and look at who is doctoring the books

Bravo!

Let's just throw the 6th Satanic Statement right out of the window.

As admirable as their works are, I'd hardly call Zappa and Carlin examples of entertainers who "died before their time". They both left behind a HUGE back catalog of recordings, writings and interviews spanning several decades. They both received awards while they were alive. They both influenced two generations of entertainers while they were still alive.

On the other hand, for every Zappa or Carlin, there are hundreds of other entertainers who only released a handful of professional recordings (if even that), and more importantly seemed like they were evolving on their way to developing their own Magnum Opus, but died before really achieving it.

My reason for naming Zappa was that he was only in his fifties when he died, so he could in theory have had many productive years still. It would have been interesting to hear his take on the political correctness of today.

With Carlin I'd have liked him to live long enough to receive the Mark Twain prize that he got posthumously.

But you are correct in that they are not good examples of "dying before their time", they are more examples that people sometimes die even though they haven't outlived their usefulness.

For me, “Lovecraft” is a name that comes to mind. If he had stayed alive longer, he might have, at the very least, enjoyed the fruits of his work and who knows what else he might have done if he had been able to live to an old age.

Mentioning Lovecraft made me think of Robert E. Howard too, but since his death was suicide I guess one can say that he chose his own time.

I'd have to agree with the sentiments regarding Lovecaft. I would love to read more stories written by an author as talented as he was. In addition, I refuse to believe that "it was time" for people like Cliff Burton or Dimebag Darrell to die. They could have had much longer careers - hell, if Dimebag hadn't been shot, Pantera might have one day reformed.

A few days ago the drummer for Avenged Sevenfold also died, and he was only in his mid-twenties. I'm not a very big A7X fan, but I did feel a pang of sadness when I read about his death.

I often think of this,exact same thing.
Superjoint Ritual is a nice band,but all too in the shadow of Pantera.
When people ask me of "going to heaven and Hell" I often say,"Who wants to sit around in heaven with a bunch of cheesy elevator music?Pantera will be on the main stage in Hell!"

Reminds me of the late great Biggie when he said this:

"It don't make sense, goin' to heaven wit the goodie-goodies
Dressed in white, I like black Tims and black hoodies
God will probably have me on some real strict shit
No sleepin' all day, no gettin my dick licked"