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#412197 - 02/12/10 01:40 AM Re: The Haiti Earthquake and Natural Disasters. [Re: Discipline]
JanusFaust Offline


Registered: 02/10/10
Posts: 20
Originally Posted By: Discipline
>>If you value your life, why stay in a place that is practically unsafe?

Even though I am indifferent about the Haiti issue currently, it is rather ignorant to proclaim a nation of extreme poverty to try to relocate to a better area when the means to do so are enormously scarce.


Perhaps I should've rephrased, Warlock.
I merely meant it in the individual sense, not the nation at large, I am aware of their extreme poverty, but this poverty could very well be a result of past disasters.
I did say they did not deserve it. But with their history, it's not one of the safest places on earth to be.
_________________________
Vi veri universum vivus vici
...to what end? VICTORY!

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#412199 - 02/12/10 02:51 AM Re: The Haiti Earthquake and Natural Disasters. [Re: Discipline]
Maupassant's Offline


Registered: 01/08/10
Posts: 35
Originally Posted By: Discipline
Even though I am indifferent about the Haiti issue currently, it is rather ignorant to proclaim a nation of extreme poverty to try to relocate to a better area when the means to do so are enormously scarce.


Of course, relocating a whole nation is a "curious" idea. The point is that it's also rather ignorant to live in a dangerous area and then be all surprised when disaster actually DOES strike and call for help.

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#412256 - 02/12/10 05:52 PM Re: The Haiti Earthquake and Natural Disasters. [Re: Maupassant's]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Do you seriously think that an earthquake is the biggest concern of your average Haitian? Their problems are more on the line of political, economical, and cultural. The earthquake was stirring the stew of an already boiling pot and the western world suddenly got a good-guy boner because of it.

Do you think the Haitians were surprised by the Earthquake more than the western world was of how fucked up Haiti is and that they weren’t getting a piece of the charity action?

So, with your point New Orleans citizens deserved their plight. Southern Californians got their just-deserts with the wild fires. Floridians are morons for staying in a Hurricane zone. And we all know how damn stupid New Yorkers are for living in a blizzard region. crazy

Dangerous area? What part of the world doesn't have its fill of natural disasters?
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#412257 - 02/12/10 06:08 PM Re: The Haiti Earthquake and Natural Disasters. [Re: Discipline]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
I think the point is that if you choose to live in an area that has a long track record for being prone to natural disasters, you shouldn't be too shocked when it finally happens.

I understand your point that Haitians didn't have the means to go somewhere safer. That would take a LOT of rafts--and besides, we wouldn't want them to come here, would we?
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#412261 - 02/12/10 06:11 PM Re: The Haiti Earthquake and Natural Disasters. [Re: M.D. Roche]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
>>I think the point is that if you choose to live in an area that has a long track record for being prone to natural disasters, you shouldn't be too shocked when it finally happens.

The earthquake is not the big problem for Haitians. It was a nasty event, but it is not what is causing Haitians to have such terrible social issues. The quake was just added misery to their nasty situation.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#412276 - 02/12/10 08:05 PM Re: The Haiti Earthquake and Natural Disasters. [Re: M.D. Roche]
Maupassant's Offline


Registered: 01/08/10
Posts: 35
Originally Posted By: MALFORM
I think the point is that if you choose to live in an area that has a long track record for being prone to natural disasters, you shouldn't be too shocked when it finally happens.


That was my point exactly, thanks for saying it in a better way.

@Discipline: I certainly did not mean or write that anyone DESERVES a natural disaster. I only think that you don't go to Japan and act all surprised when there's a earthquake going on.

And Central Europe is a pretty safe area when it comes to disasters :- )

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#412278 - 02/12/10 08:12 PM Re: The Haiti Earthquake and Natural Disasters. [Re: Maupassant's]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8781
Quote:
I think the point is that if you choose to live...


Choose? Haiti? They chose to live there? Really?

What an embarrassing lack of care in formulating coherent thoughts that make any sense.

zombie
_________________________
I think of the future as branching probability streams.
- Elon Musk

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#412280 - 02/12/10 08:47 PM Re: The Haiti Earthquake and Natural Disasters. [Re: Maupassant's]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
>>@Discipline: I certainly did not mean or write that anyone DESERVES a natural disaster. I only think that you don't go to Japan and act all surprised when there's a earthquake going on.

Why not?

It does lie on a convergent boundary, but that does not suggest that major Earthquakes occur daily (transform faults tend to have worse earthquakes. Tokyo tends to have a softer soil embedment which causes the wave from a quake to become “trapped” causing greater damage). I live in Southern California where little (3.0 or less) earthquakes occur daily. We pay them no heed. But a major earthquake (7 or larger) would shock the fuck out of us (literally and mentally).

>>And Central Europe is a pretty safe area when it comes to disasters

Having lived there for a few years, I recall some fairly bad winter storms that would shut down major social and economic functions. Granted, the death toll tends to be light but they still made life a bit miserable.

There are large floods in the area which killed a good number of people. Yet, the death toll is small as well. Like most modern nations, there are good warning systems and emergency services.

The point I am trying to make is that any where you reside there will be some form of potential natural disaster. It is a bit conceited for young people, born into wealth and privilege, to irrationally argue that those who do not have the same means as they do try to do something about their quandary. I am not trying to suggest you should care what happens to them. I am stating that most here don’t have the pragmatic experience needed to offer solid advice to those in dire straits, especially in a snooty manner. Enjoy your life and be happy you’re not them, but don’t try to make demands on others who don’t have the resources just so you can feel better about your own birth right.

I can respect a man who has an accurate reasoned elitism but it gnaws at me to hear people condemn others of lesser privilege from an assumed sense of expertise.

Or perhaps I am the asshole who is kicking over everyone’s sand castle.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#412282 - 02/12/10 08:57 PM Re: The Haiti Earthquake and Natural Disasters. [Re: Discipline]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8781
Originally Posted By: Discipline


Or perhaps I am the asshole who is kicking over everyone’s sand castle.


No, dear friend, you are spot on with every single word here, clearly the mature adult in the room who has seen and lived life (as I know very well you have, being a combat tanker in Iraq and all), and am relieved someone finally spoke some sense and reason, albeit FAR too gently for my tastes.

Once again, although it was hard to do, you have raised my respect for your seasoned judgment and rational fair thinking up a few notches yet again.

If these kids keep it up with the safe-from-their-armchair BS, being in the foul bloodthirsty mood I am, I may just go batshit nuclear on their asses.

Think Leviathan, but not as nice.

wink
_________________________
I think of the future as branching probability streams.
- Elon Musk

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#412283 - 02/12/10 09:05 PM Re: The Haiti Earthquake and Natural Disasters. [Re: Quaark]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
You're are welcome, Sir.

And thank you for the compliment. There are others here and elsewhere that I know who have experienced worse than I. They, the true survivors, are the ones I am honored to know.

P.S. Your posts are always read with great attention for their clarity and rationality. I appreciate your forum participation.


Edited by Discipline (02/12/10 10:12 PM)
Edit Reason: Those pesky Typos
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#412330 - 02/13/10 03:40 AM Re: The Haiti Earthquake and Natural Disasters. [Re: Quaark]
Maupassant's Offline


Registered: 01/08/10
Posts: 35
We have obviously came to a conclusion here, apart from the fact that you've gotten the idea that I "condemn" people who are worse off in terms of natural disasters. That is not true.

There is a difference between knowing to expect something (like an earthquake) and deserving it. One obviously doesn't translate to the other, and such a point was never made.

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#412331 - 02/13/10 03:47 AM Re: The Haiti Earthquake and Natural Disasters. [Re: Discipline]
Spelled Moon Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/25/08
Posts: 1691
Originally Posted By: Discipline
P.S. Your posts are always read with great attention for their clarity and rationality. I appreciate your forum participation.


And I second that. smile

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#412336 - 02/13/10 04:09 AM Re: The Haiti Earthquake and Natural Disasters. [Re: Maupassant's]
JanusFaust Offline


Registered: 02/10/10
Posts: 20
No one chooses the house they are born into.

Perhaps this is too reflective on myself, but I think one should try to achieve the most in life and if that means moving to another place, one should do so, even if the costs are great, so will be the reward.
I also think it's safe to say that when disasters are known to happen, one should (when having decided to stay) make precautionary efforts to extend his or her chances of survival.

On a much smaller scale, I personally have.

As for the sudden disasters, nature is just funny that way.
_________________________
Vi veri universum vivus vici
...to what end? VICTORY!

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#412347 - 02/13/10 06:59 AM Re: The Haiti Earthquake and Natural Disasters. [Re: Maupassant's]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8781
I made no errors and made no assumptions. My statements were tightly focused and aimed and precise, as far as you were concerned.

If anything, you have right here made exactly the error you accuse me of making. Ironic.

Before I spend more time responding, I will be kind and give you a chance to re-read what I actually said.

Hint: my entire point was focused on a single word, used first by someone else, that you stated clearly you agreed with the usage of.

I addressed nothing else.
_________________________
I think of the future as branching probability streams.
- Elon Musk

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#412379 - 02/13/10 03:36 PM Re: The Haiti Earthquake and Natural Disasters. [Re: Discipline]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2333
Loc: East Coast, USA.
Quote:
Or perhaps I am the asshole who is kicking over everyone’s sand castle.


You must be mad! Mad I tell ya!

My thoughts on this subject have already been mentioned, but even in my indifference, I'm not dumb enough to pull out the "they brought it on themselves" argument.

Pat Robertson did that already and nobody wants to be in that assholes company. laugh

And to echo Reverend Daark, I rarely, if ever, find a post that you write that isn't written well, to the point and with a lot of experience/wisdom/factual knowledge shoring it up.

Asshole? Bahahahaha! Nonsense.
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a person’s faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





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