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#410769 - 01/30/10 09:16 PM Re: A suggestion. [Re: PsychOff]
Herr_S Offline


Registered: 12/25/08
Posts: 76
Loc: Mordor
Anyone asking themselves wether there is a God should first ask themselves this question:

What color is tuesday?

The two questions are equally meaningless.
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Each misdirected act of compassion is a waste of magical energy.

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#410772 - 01/30/10 09:47 PM Re: A suggestion. [Re: PsychOff]
SteelAndStone Offline


Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 40
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: PsychOff
In Britain, many Muslims have immigrated here to our shores. Many have good jobs and keep to themselves and essentially have been "Britishized". Very few pose a dangerous threat and Britain keeps a close eye on who it lets in, better than America does (that is not meant to be a derogative remark, just stating fact). They protest, we protest back but that's about it, media exaggerates and the Daily Mail loves it. They learn English fairly quickly here, many open Kebab fast food restaurants, some successful, some less so. Some become Taxi drivers, some come to study. I don't know where you stand politically and that is obviously a self-preference to Satanists, but generally I don't mind immigrants. We even have a famous Iranian middle-class UK educated comedian: Omid Djalili, a fat, short bloke who you will most likely have seen in hollywood films such as The Gladiator and The Mummy. He's a Baha'i but I think he's really an Atheist; as you know there is a greater percentage of Atheists in the UK than the USA. Hope that answers your question, SteelAndStone.

It does. As I said, I had heard of Muslims in Britain, some of them militant, but I thought it would be wise to ask someone who lived overseas, rather than trust media rumors. Thank you. smile

Originally Posted By: Nemo
Herd Member One: "There is a God!"

Herd Member Two: "There is no such thing as a God!"

Thank you, Magister, for the advice, and the words of warning. I admit, I have, at times, forgotten that just because one does not buy into Christianity doesn't mean one isn't part of the herd. It's a mentality that goes far deeper than mere religious beliefs. We are our own Gods (or Satans, if one prefers), but we are not perfect--a fact I try not to let myself forget too often. I appreciate reminders like this.

EDIT: Herr_S, I can't speak for Tuesday, but I perceive Monday to be a shade of gray. (Unless it happens to be a Monday the 13th, in which case it is a bright shade of orange.) jack


Edited by SteelAndStone (01/30/10 09:53 PM)
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#410833 - 01/31/10 06:17 PM Re: the "hidden powers" of God. [Re: PsychOff]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12591
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Yes. As I-theists there are a number of hidden powers we possess:

We have the power to not get sucked into stupid dichotomies (such as theist/atheist).

We have the power to let the herd slug it out over meaningless arguments (such as theist/atheist).

We have the power to rise above simplistic labels (such as theist/atheist).

Discovering our "hidden powers" is just another reason why "Satanism requires study".

Those who think Satanism is all just a matter of natural instinct need to reconnect with their brains and get with the program.

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#410846 - 01/31/10 09:31 PM Re: A suggestion. [Re: Nemo]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8274
For those who are new to Satanism, or simply browsing through this board out of curiosity, what Magister Nemo has provided an example of is what is referred to as The Third Side.

Dr. LaVey explains this concept throughout his writings.

It also alludes to the different degrees of evolution and development of Satanists, again expounded at length by Dr. LaVey, and also by Magistra Barton in her writings.
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"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


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#410940 - 02/01/10 03:28 PM Re: A suggestion. [Re: Delta]
I'mPerfecting Offline


Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 221
Loc: Florida
That was beautiful, brought a tear to my eye with laughter. I find I to indulge my childish-hatred in much the same way. I find the flies with honey tactic work a lot better. Then they love you and you can do no wrong.

Throw in a few of your own quotes and they never know the difference.

It's not my place to enlighten anyone, let them find it the hard way on their own like the rest of us did.
It appeals to my impish nature very much.
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"...Porcelain in a paper cup world."
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#411384 - 02/06/10 04:25 AM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: PsychOff]
Machismo Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: PsychOff
At what point do I step in to defend rationalization, logic, science and atheism?


Almost never. People are either logical or they're not. You can't make them logical. And that's what you would have to do. First make them logical, then give your argument. The first part's impossible so the second part's pointless. Unless the person is already logical to begin with, which still makes the second part usually pointless, since the person will already be an atheist. Except: some logical people were brainwashed as little kids and are struggling with questions. Those are the only ones who will benefit from clear arguments.
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#411390 - 02/06/10 04:55 AM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Machismo]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2153
Originally Posted By: RealityPrinciple
People are either logical or they're not. You can't make them logical.

With respect, that is simply not the case. Logic is not an aspect of personality. It is a tool. The VAST majority of humanity uses some form of logic without even realizing it. And those logicians who are clever enough will use logical fallacies to their advantage. Depending on how conscious of such an act one would be, it could be seen as Lesser Magic 101 or the advanced course.

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Unless the person is already logical to begin with, which still makes the second part usually pointless, since the person will already be an atheist.

So, I gather that with this statement you are assuming that, in order to be logical, one must be an atheist? crazy

There's a professor at my college who teaches logic; he's also a Presbyterian minister. He also teaches world religions. He is a damn good professor. While it is definitely true that those who come from theistic backgrounds are more likely to ignore atheistic arguments, their theism does not preclude any aptitude for logic.

I think what's happening here (and many places elsewhere, it would seem) is equating logic with intelligence. Something that a lot of people don't understand is that, logically, an argument can be sound as a trombone and still be objectively false.

And while it might be fun to paint theists with the broad strokes of "stupid" or "insane", it's simply not a practical generalization. I had to learn the hard way that assuming everyone else is a bumbling religious idiot is on the fast lane to solipsism.
_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#411399 - 02/06/10 07:09 AM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: NapalmNick]
Machismo Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: NapalmNick
Originally Posted By: RealityPrinciple
People are either logical or they're not. You can't make them logical.

With respect, that is simply not the case. Logic is not an aspect of personality. It is a tool.


Well, illogical people are tools, but... jack

There are logical people and illogical people. You telling me you never met an illogical person?

Logical people live by logic. Illogical people don't. It's a lifestyle thing.

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Unless the person is already logical to begin with, which still makes the second part usually pointless, since the person will already be an atheist.

So, I gather that with this statement you are assuming that, in order to be logical, one must be an atheist? crazy


The reverse. To be an atheist you have to be logical. Although, come to think of it, it's pretty hard to live by logic and stay religious.

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There's a professor at my college who teaches logic; he's also a Presbyterian minister. He also teaches world religions. He is a damn good professor.


He knows how to use logic and even teach it but doesn't live by it. Same as Thomas Aquinas. Now there's a guy who could spin syllogisms like a spider spins webs. Did him no good because when push came to shove, he lived by feelings, brainwashing, faith.

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I think what's happening here (and many places elsewhere, it would seem) is equating logic with intelligence. Something that a lot of people don't understand is that, logically, an argument can be sound as a trombone and still be objectively false.


Guy can be smart as hell and still be illogical because he lives by feelings, brainwashing, faith. Logical arguments are false if their premises are false. Illogical people don't question their premises. They accept them on faith. Guy can be Mensa and still be Christian. Has a brain and knows how to use it but chooses not to.

Being logical is a choice, an act of will. Takes discipline.
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#411424 - 02/06/10 01:30 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: PsychOff]
Basher Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 66
Loc: Mars
Originally Posted By: PsychOff
Ok, there is no God,

Originally Posted By: PsychOff



I concur.

Originally Posted By: PsychOff
whether it be pantheism, deism, monotheism or even polytheism. All inventions, you know that, I know that... the herd doesn't... still!


The first part of this sentence renders the second part of this sentence redundant.

Originally Posted By: PsychOff
The subject title of this post is referring to a book called: There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind by Antony Flew.


There is no god! Why waste your time?

Fuck, I'm not reading any more of this post because any further details are a waste of my time! But yes, I concur that there is no god.
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#411426 - 02/06/10 01:42 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: PsychOff]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
Originally Posted By: PsychOff
whether it be pantheism, deism, monotheism or even polytheism. All inventions, you know that, I know that... the herd doesn't... still!


Actually, I'm pretty sure Dr. LaVey was a deist, and although Magus Gilmore calls himself an atheist, his belief seems to be more parallel with deism as well.

Deism
n. The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.


Edited by MALFORM (02/06/10 05:55 PM)
Edit Reason: Magus, not Magister
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#411428 - 02/06/10 01:58 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Machismo]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2153
Quote:
There are logical people and illogical people. You telling me you never met an illogical person?
Logical people live by logic. Illogical people don't. It's a lifestyle thing.

I've never met a person who's only made illogical statements. And no, it is not necessarily a lifestyle thing. As I said, it is a tool. To be more specific, it is one of the basic tools of the human mind!

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To be an atheist you have to be logical.

Obviously you haven't met that many atheists. Oh, and interesting that you should commit the fallacy of composition here.

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illogical because he lives by feelings, brainwashing, faith

OK. As much as I love Star Trek let me say that feelings really don't hinder logical thought that much. You know why? Because, as humans, they come natural to us. The only cases of "brainwashing" I've ever seen that were set up specifically to deflect ANY arguments were that of Jehovah's Witnesses. And, while I'm never going to outright defend faith, it simply does not hinder logical thought. Sorry, but it doesn't. Most religious faith deals with things which are as yet unexplained. The Catholic Church FULLY accepts evolution. Because they are able to separate faith from the scientific method, of which logic is the backbone.

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Being logical is a choice

Now, let's compare this to your first statement: "There are logical people and illogical people."

So, is it a choice, or is it intuitive? Well, I'd say on the whole it is intuitive, but each time you consciously use logic you are making a choice.

What seems to be stemming from you is this really immature religious prejudice. You've put up a mental block in your head that tells you no person who believes in a god can think logically, and that is simply not true. I'm not necessarily defending them, I'm simply defending the objective facts of the matter.

Typically when one is busy enjoying life he doesn't take time out of his day to verbally bash others (especially when he's only half right).

Lots of people come to this board mad at mommy and daddy for raising them Catholic or Jewish, or whatever. And through their childhood anger they extend it to the entire religious community everywhere and don a gigantic inverted cross and start listening to Dimmu Borgir. Well, as fun as it might be to be "blasphemous" it really looks ridiculous. Go put on a white linen shirt and smoke a cigar.

Unless you're willing to remove the blinders I'm done.
_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#411440 - 02/06/10 04:14 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: NapalmNick]
Machismo Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: NapalmNick
I've never met a person who's only made illogical statements.


Neither have I. Didn't say I had.

I was going to drop this back and forth we're doing, but further down you get a little rough, so I guess I'll do one more post and see if it gets us anywhere.

Everybody uses logic sometimes. Everybody makes logical statements somtimes. Even the kind of people I'm calling illogical. I can call them something else if that'll help. I'll call them X and I'll define X as people who will sometimes choose to judge truth by feelings instead of logic and will stick with that, even if challenged. Notice the "sometimes." I think that's part of why we don't seem to be communicating. I'm not talking about things that are true always or true never. X will judge truth by logic sometimes. But X will sometimes judge truth by feelings, and won't change their minds, even when logical arguments are put in front of them. I'm sure you've met X. I know I have.

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To be an atheist you have to be logical.

Obviously you haven't met that many atheists.


What else but logic would lead a person to atheism? I may have something to learn here. Cool if I do. I like to learn.

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illogical because he lives by feelings, brainwashing, faith

OK. As much as I love Star Trek let me say that feelings really don't hinder logical thought that much. You know why? Because, as humans, they come natural to us.


Feelings are great for deciding what I want or don't want. They suck for deciding what's true.

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The only cases of "brainwashing" I've ever seen that were set up specifically to deflect ANY arguments were that of Jehovah's Witnesses.


I'll use a different word: indoctrination. Many little kids are indoctrinated with faith by their parents and their religious communities. This is very effective because little kids haven't developed the mental defenses to fight off such things. Hell, their cerebrums aren't mature enough to even begin to do that.

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And, while I'm never going to outright defend faith, it simply does not hinder logical thought.


Faith is inherently illogical. The two things are opposites. Either you believe something for reasons of logic or you believe it on faith. Once you have faith as your starting point, yes, you can be logical from that point on. Thomas Aquinas was great at that. But if your premises are no good, your logic will be no good. Thomas Aquinas's premises were no good. He started from faith.

Faith is feeling-based. X believe something because it feels good to believe it, or it feels bad not to.

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Being logical is a choice

Now, let's compare this to your first statement: "There are logical people and illogical people."


Should be obvious but I'll spell out what I meant. Using my old wording, logical people choose to judge truth by logic, illogical people sometimes don't. But I'm using a different term now. X. People put themselves in the category of X by choice. They sometimes choose to judge truth by feelings instead of logic.

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So, is it a choice, or is it intuitive? Well, I'd say on the whole it is intuitive, but each time you consciously use logic you are making a choice.


I agree with the above.

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What seems to be stemming from you is this really immature religious prejudice.


This where you got a little rough, although really the only word in your sentence I don't like is "immature." I think I do have a prejudice against religion. I just don't think I'm immature. I'm prejudiced against feeling-based truth judgments. I oppose them. I'm their enemy. I guess I'm Spock-ish. Never thought of myself that way but if the shoe fits...

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You've put up a mental block in your head that tells you no person who believes in a god can think logically, and that is simply not true.


I don't think that and didn't say that. Here, I'll say it clearly. X can think logically. X often think logically. Sometimes they judge truth by feelings. That's anti-logical. Hey! There's a term I could use. Forget "illogical." I'll use anti-logical instead.

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Typically when one is busy enjoying life he doesn't take time out of his day to verbally bash others (especially when he's only half right).


I think you're aiming at me with that so I'll just say that I oppose X. It's important to me to do that. It's my Satan the adversary thing. I'm X's adversary.

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Lots of people come to this board mad at mommy and daddy for raising them Catholic or Jewish, or whatever.


Not me. My mommy and daddy raised me Catholic but I shook off the indoctrination. I'm not mad about it on a personal level but my mommy and daddy are members of X so to that extent I oppose them and with some malice, not because they're mommy and daddy but because they're X.

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And through their childhood anger they extend it to the entire religious community everywhere and don a gigantic inverted cross and start listening to Dimmu Borgir.


Ha! Now you've got me googling Dimmu Borgir. jack

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Well, as fun as it might be to be "blasphemous" it really looks ridiculous. Go put on a white linen shirt and smoke a cigar.


Some more rough stuff. But at this point I think I've explained myself as best I ever will so I'm satisfied.
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#411442 - 02/06/10 05:03 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Machismo]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
Nothin' wrong with Dimmu Borgir...
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#411444 - 02/06/10 05:34 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: M.D. Roche]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
Originally Posted By: MALFORM
Originally Posted By: PsychOff
whether it be pantheism, deism, monotheism or even polytheism. All inventions, you know that, I know that... the herd doesn't... still!


Actually, I'm pretty sure Dr. LaVey was a deist, and although Magister Gilmore calls himself an atheist, his belief seems to be more parallel with deism as well.

Deism
n. The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.


What in the heck lead you to that conclusion?

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#411446 - 02/06/10 05:54 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: TheDegenerate]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
The Satanic Bible, page 40, first paragraph. I'm too lazy to type it up.

Upon re-reading the passage: He doesn't suggest that God created the universe; he/it simply acts as a balancing factor in the universe. If he wasn't exactly a deist he definitely leans in that direction. Not saying there's anything wrong with that.

Magus Gilmore discussed his view on God in Inside the Church of Satan. I'm also too lazy to quote his exact words or find the exact moment when he discusses it, but you can watch it on YouTube.


Edited by MALFORM (02/06/10 06:32 PM)
Edit Reason: I'm neurotic
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