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#410662 - 01/29/10 08:50 PM There is NO/A God...
PsychOff Offline


Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 51
OK, there is no God, whether it be pantheism, deism, monotheism or even polytheism. All inventions, you know that, I know that... the herd doesn't... still!

The subject title of this post is referring to a book called: There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind by Antony Flew.

I was at work, a part-time job I have at an Independent Cinema in Notting Hill, London. It's a temporary job I've had whilst I was studying and I will soon be changing for something more interesting. Anyways, the cinema is owned by a Christian Church called Kensington Temple, most of its herd are of African, Brazilian, Arabic and Asian origin, very few Caucasians. It's pastor is Collin Dye. The cinema itself shows regular released films, the church rarely interferes with what is shown (we have screened films like Bruno), the Kensington Temple just want to make money anyways. Moving on, some of the workers there are Christians; a few such as myself are Atheists or Agnostics. Now obviously I have kept my Satanism to myself, but I don't mind them knowing I'm an Atheist.

Now on occasion we have had discussions about atheism vs theism. Its almost unavoidable, its a small cinema with just 2 screens and 2 hour gaps in between screenings and very little else to do; so we get bored. Only a few months ago I decided to stop starting discussions of the sort simply because it leads to anger, frustration and we are in a working environment where we need to co-operate, plus it got us no where. On top of that I was being solipsistic, but its extremely hard to argue with my Christian work-colleagues on refusing to talk about it as they think they are intelligent enough to sustain a debate. Yet when they do start talking the obvious happens: slurred speech, unclear, limited vocabulary, worshiping of gaps, the bible says that, blah blah blah.

So today, the person I'm talking about is called Anthony, I arrived at work and he had the book in his hand that I mentioned above. Now myself and others at work have brought books of our own to read during the dull hours: The End Of Faith by Sam Harris, The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, books on Fractals and Chaos Theory, Evolutionary Psychology, The Portable Atheist by Christopher Hitchens, etc. So he thought he would bring something else apart from the Holy Bible.

So eventually he walked over to me and another non-believer colleague of mine and enthusiastically he said: "Hey, listen to this, yeah?" He reads about 3-4 pages, not very well either and far too long. Now you can tell by the title where the book is going; and what Anthony had read was pretty much worshipping of gaps; science cannot explain that so therefore the default answer must be supernatural god... my teeth are grinding. I began with the help and support of my friend laying down the problems and counter-arguments we had stored in our brains; I mentioned monism vs dualism, the three different stances (physical, design and intentional) which Dan Dennett had conceptualized and the worshipping of gaps. Etc.

I should have stopped there, I tickled his psychic sucking, but I'm a masochist who enjoys challenging people to illicit an aggressive response. But I took a step further up and suddenly said:

"God is a Cock, he is a misogynistic, homophobic, racist and Christians are in desperate consolation for the Apocalypse to arrive to torture everyone else. You revel in it, you are sadists."

Now. Yeah. So. He was offended obviously... in fact he was so offended he replied: "I can't believe you said that to me, I should come over there and beat you up, I would kill you for saying that. Nah, don't talk to me."

Now, I know he won't, and I took advantage of that, I certainly wouldn't have said that to a Muslim. But he went on to say just that: you wouldn't say that to a Muslim, you know I can go to Collin Dye (the Kensington Temple pastor) and to Ron (the manager of the cinema) and tell them what you said to me. To which I had said: to get me fired? He pretended not to glimmer at such a sadistic thing, hmm.

Let me first establish that this has been going on for quite some time, I have worked at that job for almost 2 years now. These conflicts have happened over the course of that time and today hit quite high; I wouldn't normally practice every little worry I have on these forums and flame. But these events have been accumulating and would be nice to get a second opinion. On par I kind of did this to test certain boundaries in a "safer" environment, to experience it first hand how dreadfully dangerous these extreme religious indoctrinations can make people say and do. I've read many of the Satanic books and they talk about just these specific situations and people; I understood it and knew it, I guess I just wanted to experience it more.

Sorry for the long post, but I felt it nice to get this off my chest, and really to see what you guys think: Did I go to far? Should I just completely stratify myself? At what point do I step in to defend rationalization, logic, science and atheism?


Edited by PsychOff (01/29/10 08:52 PM)
_________________________
They say the Light brings you truth and the Darkness only serves to tempt you;
I say the Light blinds you from the truth and the Darkness forces you to see, smell, listen, feel and think better.

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#410664 - 01/29/10 09:04 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: PsychOff]
Nammu Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 10/18/09
Posts: 399
Loc: Pacific NW
Originally Posted By: PsychOff

I should have stopped there, I tickled his psychic sucking, but I'm a masochist who enjoys challenging people to illicit an aggressive response.


If this conversation brought you pleasure and was worth the potential risks
then you were simply indulging your masochism.

Originally Posted By: PsychOff

At what point do I step in to defend rationalization, logic, science and atheism?


With illogical/irrational beings, never.
Utter waste of time unless you are a masochist (see above).

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#410665 - 01/29/10 09:10 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Nammu]
PsychOff Offline


Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 51
Originally Posted By: Nammu

With illogical/irrational beings, never.
Utter waste of time unless you are a masochist (see above).


I completely agree, funnily enough, after the incident I spoke to my supervisor about it and to my work-colleagues and we agreed that it is best not to even begin such discussions. In regards to masochism, I shall indulge in it elsewhere, thank you Nammu^^
_________________________
They say the Light brings you truth and the Darkness only serves to tempt you;
I say the Light blinds you from the truth and the Darkness forces you to see, smell, listen, feel and think better.

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#410666 - 01/29/10 09:15 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: PsychOff]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Quote:
I completely agree, funnily enough, after the incident I spoke to my supervisor about it and to my work-colleagues and we agreed that it is best not to even begin such discussions. In regards to masochism, I shall indulge in it elsewhere, thank you Nammu^^


It looks like you found your own solution.
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#410671 - 01/29/10 10:41 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: PsychOff]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
Originally Posted By: PsychOff
I certainly wouldn't have said that to a Muslim.


Why not?
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#410672 - 01/29/10 10:59 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: PsychOff]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3968
Loc: The Deep South
Trying to explain a Theist that there is no God is like trying to explain the colors to a blind person.

Pointless, useless and also kind of cruel...
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#410673 - 01/29/10 11:03 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: PsychOff]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11532
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: PsychOff
The subject title of this post is referring to a book called: There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind by Antony Flew.

It's funny seeing so many zealots who get hard-ons over the Anthony Flew story and keep citing him, when in fact all he did was move from atheism to deism. There's still a huge leap from there to the monotheism that they're trying to push.

Quote:
Only a few months ago I decided to stop starting discussions of the sort simply because it leads to anger, frustration and we are in a working environment where we need to co-operate, plus it got us no where.

This is why I personally stick to a "no religion or politics in the workplace" rule. Debate is tempting, but ultimately not worth the hassles that come with having fragile shell co-workers.

Quote:
Did I go to far? Should I just completely stratify myself?

If you didn't say what you said, I'm sure the other guy would have eventually had his own similar attack to say, probably of the fire & brimstone variety. I can't imagine the argument ending any other way, because it seems like it was going nowhere. Still, that doesn't mean you handled it the best way. Besides now trying to fire you, he also has the impression on some level that he's won the argument.

Quote:
At what point do I step in to defend rationalization, logic, science and atheism?

Although debate is fun and people who make false claims have to be put in their place, the rules change at the workplace. These are people you have to work with, and since religion is such a personal topic to many people, your working relationship can be affected when things get touchy. As a Satanist, your own well-being should take priority above fighting for a cause.

Plus, as others have pointed out, there is the "waste of time" aspect. People who believe in a deity often do so because they have a deep emotional investment attached to the belief. They're going to defend that emotional investment no matter what, and rationalize away any arguments that challenge it.

Religion is a crutch to these people, but when you try to kick out somebody's crutch, they don't start walking; they cling to the crutch tighter.
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#410674 - 01/29/10 11:26 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: PsychOff]
Delta Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 6747
Loc: Nar
You say you're a masochist and you called them sadists. That's a great match for entertaining social intercourse- If you both know the limits. You need a safe word if you're going on with this sort of thing, especially at work. Masochism is frowned upon by many satanists, I say there's nothing wrong with it so long as you understand that it is masochism, you really get pleasure from it, and you come away unharmed. That includes getting fired, unless you want to get fired as many in your line of work do. You need never defend atheism, logic or rationality especially to those who (Great metaphor Old Pig!) won't be changing their minds anytime soon. "Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig." (Different pig, quote from Heinlein)

I have some youthful argue-lust in me and I'll debate with xtians from time to time when I feel the urge and when it's reasonably safe (Depending on how deep your masochist streak runs, you may wish to be unsafe either for the dangerous thrill or in pursuit of the greatest (and most unsatanic) masochistic climax- martyrdom) but recently and especially in public, I've found a new game that's even more fun:

I agree with them on every point, and one up them. If they say Christ died for me, I say "And for you too, good buddy! And for criminals and pedophiles and even Hitler!" If they say Evolution is fake, I say "Obviously, it's in the bible!" and expound on the lie of gravity- It's the love of Jesus that keeps my feet on the ground. It leads to one of two endings- They end up thinking "Man, some Christians are nuts," or they keep raising the stakes too, working themselves into a religious high. That means they leave with a happy new pal and a new assurance in what they believe.

I like that ending because I still, perhaps childishly, hate fundies. I fucking HATE them. I don't want to show them the light, I don't want to see them learn, I want to see them sink deeper and deeper into their own shit so I can laugh as they drown in it.

But then, I'm a sadist. And hey, maybe you'll convince someone:



Edited by Delta (01/29/10 11:42 PM)
Edit Reason: When pigs fly...
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#410685 - 01/30/10 01:49 AM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Delta]
SteelAndStone Offline


Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 40
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: PsychOff
I should have stopped there, I tickled his psychic sucking, but I'm a masochist who enjoys challenging people to illicit an aggressive response

IMO, masochism is a bit like alcohol. It can be fun in moderation, but overindulgence can lead to some decidedly unpleasant consequences. vomit

From your first post alone, you've demonstrated two things: First, that you are aware of your masochism, and are in control of it (you indulge it as you choose, rather than letting it compel you). Second, that you can both recognize your own mistakes and learn from them--something many people cannot do. Both mark you as self-aware and intelligent.

Meanwhile, your God-loving coworkers can't even get it through their heads that their religion is a myth. They occupy no positions of political power, and cannot communicate their ideas intelligently. Therefore, they pose no grave threat to rationalization, logic, science and atheism. Let them sink deeper and deeper into their own shit and laugh as they drown in it, as Delta so delightfully put it.

Originally Posted By: PsychOff
I certainly wouldn't have said that to a Muslim.

I'm also curious as to this remark. I used to live on a street where most of my neighbors were Muslims, but most of their children, who I went to school with, were "Americanized", and most of the adults kept to themselves and only spoke English when it suited them. Consequently, religion never really came up. I've heard that Britain has seen an increase in the Muslim population in recent years, and that some of them are quite militant. Perhaps you could elaborate on this?
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#410739 - 01/30/10 02:40 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Delta]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Wow that pig did a good job!
We're talking about the one in overalls right?
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#410756 - 01/30/10 07:22 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: SteelAndStone]
PsychOff Offline


Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 51
Sorry for the delayed response, thank you for the replies and I'll try answer all your questions:

Originally Posted By: MALFORM
Originally Posted By: PsychOff
I certainly wouldn't have said that to a Muslim.


Why not?


At that point, I guess I tried to calm him down, he was shaking with anger and it's not that I wouldn't think differently of any other invented Gods in the plethora of religions. I was simply attempting to alleviate his anger to avoid his threat of harming me.

--

Originally Posted By: Bill_M
Originally Posted By: PsychOff
Did I go to far? Should I just completely stratify myself?

If you didn't say what you said, I'm sure the other guy would have eventually had his own similar attack to say, probably of the fire & brimstone variety. I can't imagine the argument ending any other way, because it seems like it was going nowhere. Still, that doesn't mean you handled it the best way. Besides now trying to fire you, he also has the impression on some level that he's won the argument.


You're right, my friend beside me would have eventually probably ended it in some way or another, and most likely in a better way, nonetheless, it would have ended with us irritated. I knew right from the get go this wasn't going to lead anywhere significant, I guess part of me wanted to test and experience it myself first hand and plus to mark an end to the start of such discussions indefinitely whilst we're working there; make it abundantly clear that it is going nowhere for us. But you're right, he did walk away thinking he won because I hurt his feelings and disrespected him. He won't be able to fire me I know that, even if he can it wouldn't have a detrimental effect on me, it just be a nuisance I'd rather avoid. I'll be seeing him tomorrow again since the incident, so I'm intrigued how he will respond around me. I can imagine how he will attempt to be apologetic and ask for forgiveness and then expecting me to apologize in return; forgetting that he threatened me by beating me up and killing me which is against the law here.

Originally Posted By: Bill_M
Originally Posted By: PsychOff
At what point do I step in to defend rationalization, logic, science and atheism?

Although debate is fun and people who make false claims have to be put in their place, the rules change at the workplace. These are people you have to work with, and since religion is such a personal topic to many people, your working relationship can be affected when things get touchy. As a Satanist, your own well-being should take priority above fighting for a cause.

Plus, as others have pointed out, there is the "waste of time" aspect. People who believe in a deity often do so because they have a deep emotional investment attached to the belief. They're going to defend that emotional investment no matter what, and rationalize away any arguments that challenge it.

Religion is a crutch to these people, but when you try to kick out somebody's crutch, they don't start walking; they cling to the crutch tighter.


I fully agree with you Bill_M on your points including that debating is fun, but in a work place they don't mix well; and me and my other work-colleagues agree. It is a waste of time, my Atheist friend, a different work colleague of mine who was not working that day found it hilarious I said that to Anthony the Christian. He himself had similar "debates" with this individual; always ending nowhere. We came to a mutual agreement; never again for them. This said individual cannot debate... he imagines he can.

--

Originally Posted By: Delta
You say you're a masochist and you called them sadists. That's a great match for entertaining social intercourse- If you both know the limits. You need a safe word if you're going on with this sort of thing, especially at work. Masochism is frowned upon by many satanists, I say there's nothing wrong with it so long as you understand that it is masochism, you really get pleasure from it, and you come away unharmed. That includes getting fired, unless you want to get fired as many in your line of work do. You need never defend atheism, logic or rationality especially to those who (Great metaphor Old Pig!) won't be changing their minds anytime soon. "Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig." (Different pig, quote from Heinlein)

I have some youthful argue-lust in me and I'll debate with xtians from time to time when I feel the urge and when it's reasonably safe (Depending on how deep your masochist streak runs, you may wish to be unsafe either for the dangerous thrill or in pursuit of the greatest (and most unsatanic) masochistic climax- martyrdom) but recently and especially in public, I've found a new game that's even more fun:

I agree with them on every point, and one up them. If they say Christ died for me, I say "And for you too, good buddy! And for criminals and pedophiles and even Hitler!" If they say Evolution is fake, I say "Obviously, it's in the bible!" and expound on the lie of gravity- It's the love of Jesus that keeps my feet on the ground. It leads to one of two endings- They end up thinking "Man, some Christians are nuts," or they keep raising the stakes too, working themselves into a religious high. That means they leave with a happy new pal and a new assurance in what they believe.

I like that ending because I still, perhaps childishly, hate fundies. I fucking HATE them. I don't want to show them the light, I don't want to see them learn, I want to see them sink deeper and deeper into their own shit so I can laugh as they drown in it.


In regards to my masochism, I'm not full-blown-desiring-for-dominant-pain masochist; but fore-play masochism, just want to clarify that and by no means I try to gain martydom. I understand it; I actually recently discovered I have a slight masochistic tendency whilst reading TSW. But I enjoyed what you had to say Delta, thank you. I know how to tend to my masochism healthily and I enjoyed your pig quip and play-the-agreeing-game and work them up into a religious stupor. As I mentioned earlier, I'm young and full of come and have the urge to argue and I think I pushed the envelope further this time round to fully experience first hand at comprehending what Anton LaVey and Peter H. Gilmore were talking about concerning such religious zealots, through the use of observation.

--

Originally Posted By: SteelAndStone
Originally Posted By: PsychOff
I should have stopped there, I tickled his psychic sucking, but I'm a masochist who enjoys challenging people to illicit an aggressive response

From your first post alone, you've demonstrated two things: First, that you are aware of your masochism, and are in control of it (you indulge it as you choose, rather than letting it compel you). Second, that you can both recognize your own mistakes and learn from them--something many people cannot do. Both mark you as self-aware and intelligent.

Meanwhile, your God-loving coworkers can't even get it through their heads that their religion is a myth. They occupy no positions of political power, and cannot communicate their ideas intelligently. Therefore, they pose no grave threat to rationalization, logic, science and atheism. Let them sink deeper and deeper into their own shit and laugh as they drown in it, as Delta so delightfully put it.


Thank you, SteelAndStone for your words, glad to hear I don't come across as self-deluded. Thank you for reminding me that it is not them who pose the threat, it is us!

Originally Posted By: SteelAndStone
Originally Posted By: PsychOff
I certainly wouldn't have said that to a Muslim.

I'm also curious as to this remark. I used to live on a street where most of my neighbors were Muslims, but most of their children, who I went to school with, were "Americanized", and most of the adults kept to themselves and only spoke English when it suited them. Consequently, religion never really came up. I've heard that Britain has seen an increase in the Muslim population in recent years, and that some of them are quite militant. Perhaps you could elaborate on this?


In Britain, many Muslims have immigrated here to our shores. Many have good jobs and keep to themselves and essentially have been "Britishized". Very few pose a dangerous threat and Britain keeps a close eye on who it lets in, better than America does (that is not meant to be a derogative remark, just stating fact). They protest, we protest back but that's about it, media exaggerates and the Daily Mail loves it. They learn English fairly quickly here, many open Kebab fast food restaurants, some successful, some less so. Some become Taxi drivers, some come to study. I don't know where you stand politically and that is obviously a self-preference to Satanists, but generally I don't mind immigrants. We even have a famous Iranian middle-class UK educated comedian: Omid Djalili, a fat, short bloke who you will most likely have seen in hollywood films such as The Gladiator and The Mummy. He's a Baha'i but I think he's really an Atheist; as you know there is a greater percentage of Atheists in the UK than the USA. Hope that answers your question, SteelAndStone.^^

--

Thank you all^^
_________________________
They say the Light brings you truth and the Darkness only serves to tempt you;
I say the Light blinds you from the truth and the Darkness forces you to see, smell, listen, feel and think better.

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#410759 - 01/30/10 07:49 PM A suggestion. [Re: PsychOff]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12494
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Herd Member One: "There is a God!"

Herd Member Two: "There is no such thing as a God!"

(At which point the argument goes on and on, sometimes leading to fistfights, firefights, crusades, or just general warfare without anyone really changing their minds or behavior).

Satanist: "I am God!"

(At which point the Satanist does not necessarily ever explain this to anyone but proceeds to simply behave as a God ought to).

Try the Satanist perspective and allow the herd to continue with their more usual pointless arguments.

Gods simply do not have to argue about whether they exist or not. grin

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#410760 - 01/30/10 08:09 PM Re: A suggestion. [Re: Nemo]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
Originally Posted By: Nemo
Herd Member One: "There is a God!"

Herd Member Two: "There is no such thing as a God!"

Satanist: "I am God!"

Try the Third Side perspective and allow the herd to continue with their more usual arguments.

Gods do not have to argue about whether they exist or not. grin


Even better: "I am Satan!"
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#410761 - 01/30/10 08:35 PM Re: A suggestion. [Re: M.D. Roche]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12494
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
I have expanded what I wrote to help better define my meaning.

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#410765 - 01/30/10 08:49 PM Re: A suggestion. [Re: Nemo]
PsychOff Offline


Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 51
*Laughs*
Thank you, Nemo. I got the idea, clear and straight to the point. I will apply that effectively immediately. I never saw it from that perspective before. I always saw myself as an I-theist but not expanded as such, only to my own creative goals. I guess I still got a lot to discover about my "hidden powers" as a God.
Cheers^^
_________________________
They say the Light brings you truth and the Darkness only serves to tempt you;
I say the Light blinds you from the truth and the Darkness forces you to see, smell, listen, feel and think better.

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#410769 - 01/30/10 09:16 PM Re: A suggestion. [Re: PsychOff]
Herr_S Offline


Registered: 12/25/08
Posts: 76
Loc: Mordor
Anyone asking themselves wether there is a God should first ask themselves this question:

What color is tuesday?

The two questions are equally meaningless.
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#410772 - 01/30/10 09:47 PM Re: A suggestion. [Re: PsychOff]
SteelAndStone Offline


Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 40
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: PsychOff
In Britain, many Muslims have immigrated here to our shores. Many have good jobs and keep to themselves and essentially have been "Britishized". Very few pose a dangerous threat and Britain keeps a close eye on who it lets in, better than America does (that is not meant to be a derogative remark, just stating fact). They protest, we protest back but that's about it, media exaggerates and the Daily Mail loves it. They learn English fairly quickly here, many open Kebab fast food restaurants, some successful, some less so. Some become Taxi drivers, some come to study. I don't know where you stand politically and that is obviously a self-preference to Satanists, but generally I don't mind immigrants. We even have a famous Iranian middle-class UK educated comedian: Omid Djalili, a fat, short bloke who you will most likely have seen in hollywood films such as The Gladiator and The Mummy. He's a Baha'i but I think he's really an Atheist; as you know there is a greater percentage of Atheists in the UK than the USA. Hope that answers your question, SteelAndStone.

It does. As I said, I had heard of Muslims in Britain, some of them militant, but I thought it would be wise to ask someone who lived overseas, rather than trust media rumors. Thank you. smile

Originally Posted By: Nemo
Herd Member One: "There is a God!"

Herd Member Two: "There is no such thing as a God!"

Thank you, Magister, for the advice, and the words of warning. I admit, I have, at times, forgotten that just because one does not buy into Christianity doesn't mean one isn't part of the herd. It's a mentality that goes far deeper than mere religious beliefs. We are our own Gods (or Satans, if one prefers), but we are not perfect--a fact I try not to let myself forget too often. I appreciate reminders like this.

EDIT: Herr_S, I can't speak for Tuesday, but I perceive Monday to be a shade of gray. (Unless it happens to be a Monday the 13th, in which case it is a bright shade of orange.) jack


Edited by SteelAndStone (01/30/10 09:53 PM)
_________________________
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The Book of Steel and Stone

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#410833 - 01/31/10 06:17 PM Re: the "hidden powers" of God. [Re: PsychOff]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12494
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Yes. As I-theists there are a number of hidden powers we possess:

We have the power to not get sucked into stupid dichotomies (such as theist/atheist).

We have the power to let the herd slug it out over meaningless arguments (such as theist/atheist).

We have the power to rise above simplistic labels (such as theist/atheist).

Discovering our "hidden powers" is just another reason why "Satanism requires study".

Those who think Satanism is all just a matter of natural instinct need to reconnect with their brains and get with the program.

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#410846 - 01/31/10 09:31 PM Re: A suggestion. [Re: Nemo]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8257
For those who are new to Satanism, or simply browsing through this board out of curiosity, what Magister Nemo has provided an example of is what is referred to as The Third Side.

Dr. LaVey explains this concept throughout his writings.

It also alludes to the different degrees of evolution and development of Satanists, again expounded at length by Dr. LaVey, and also by Magistra Barton in her writings.
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#410940 - 02/01/10 03:28 PM Re: A suggestion. [Re: Delta]
I'mPerfecting Offline


Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 221
Loc: Florida
That was beautiful, brought a tear to my eye with laughter. I find I to indulge my childish-hatred in much the same way. I find the flies with honey tactic work a lot better. Then they love you and you can do no wrong.

Throw in a few of your own quotes and they never know the difference.

It's not my place to enlighten anyone, let them find it the hard way on their own like the rest of us did.
It appeals to my impish nature very much.
_________________________
"...And the truth that makes us laugh, will make you cry!"
"...Porcelain in a paper cup world."
~Almost Alice~

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#411384 - 02/06/10 04:25 AM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: PsychOff]
Machismo Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: PsychOff
At what point do I step in to defend rationalization, logic, science and atheism?


Almost never. People are either logical or they're not. You can't make them logical. And that's what you would have to do. First make them logical, then give your argument. The first part's impossible so the second part's pointless. Unless the person is already logical to begin with, which still makes the second part usually pointless, since the person will already be an atheist. Except: some logical people were brainwashed as little kids and are struggling with questions. Those are the only ones who will benefit from clear arguments.
_________________________


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#411390 - 02/06/10 04:55 AM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Machismo]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2151
Originally Posted By: RealityPrinciple
People are either logical or they're not. You can't make them logical.

With respect, that is simply not the case. Logic is not an aspect of personality. It is a tool. The VAST majority of humanity uses some form of logic without even realizing it. And those logicians who are clever enough will use logical fallacies to their advantage. Depending on how conscious of such an act one would be, it could be seen as Lesser Magic 101 or the advanced course.

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Unless the person is already logical to begin with, which still makes the second part usually pointless, since the person will already be an atheist.

So, I gather that with this statement you are assuming that, in order to be logical, one must be an atheist? crazy

There's a professor at my college who teaches logic; he's also a Presbyterian minister. He also teaches world religions. He is a damn good professor. While it is definitely true that those who come from theistic backgrounds are more likely to ignore atheistic arguments, their theism does not preclude any aptitude for logic.

I think what's happening here (and many places elsewhere, it would seem) is equating logic with intelligence. Something that a lot of people don't understand is that, logically, an argument can be sound as a trombone and still be objectively false.

And while it might be fun to paint theists with the broad strokes of "stupid" or "insane", it's simply not a practical generalization. I had to learn the hard way that assuming everyone else is a bumbling religious idiot is on the fast lane to solipsism.
_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#411399 - 02/06/10 07:09 AM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: NapalmNick]
Machismo Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: NapalmNick
Originally Posted By: RealityPrinciple
People are either logical or they're not. You can't make them logical.

With respect, that is simply not the case. Logic is not an aspect of personality. It is a tool.


Well, illogical people are tools, but... jack

There are logical people and illogical people. You telling me you never met an illogical person?

Logical people live by logic. Illogical people don't. It's a lifestyle thing.

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Unless the person is already logical to begin with, which still makes the second part usually pointless, since the person will already be an atheist.

So, I gather that with this statement you are assuming that, in order to be logical, one must be an atheist? crazy


The reverse. To be an atheist you have to be logical. Although, come to think of it, it's pretty hard to live by logic and stay religious.

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There's a professor at my college who teaches logic; he's also a Presbyterian minister. He also teaches world religions. He is a damn good professor.


He knows how to use logic and even teach it but doesn't live by it. Same as Thomas Aquinas. Now there's a guy who could spin syllogisms like a spider spins webs. Did him no good because when push came to shove, he lived by feelings, brainwashing, faith.

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I think what's happening here (and many places elsewhere, it would seem) is equating logic with intelligence. Something that a lot of people don't understand is that, logically, an argument can be sound as a trombone and still be objectively false.


Guy can be smart as hell and still be illogical because he lives by feelings, brainwashing, faith. Logical arguments are false if their premises are false. Illogical people don't question their premises. They accept them on faith. Guy can be Mensa and still be Christian. Has a brain and knows how to use it but chooses not to.

Being logical is a choice, an act of will. Takes discipline.
_________________________


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#411424 - 02/06/10 01:30 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: PsychOff]
Basher Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 66
Loc: Mars
Originally Posted By: PsychOff
Ok, there is no God,

Originally Posted By: PsychOff



I concur.

Originally Posted By: PsychOff
whether it be pantheism, deism, monotheism or even polytheism. All inventions, you know that, I know that... the herd doesn't... still!


The first part of this sentence renders the second part of this sentence redundant.

Originally Posted By: PsychOff
The subject title of this post is referring to a book called: There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind by Antony Flew.


There is no god! Why waste your time?

Fuck, I'm not reading any more of this post because any further details are a waste of my time! But yes, I concur that there is no god.
_________________________
Felated Satan!

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#411426 - 02/06/10 01:42 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: PsychOff]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
Originally Posted By: PsychOff
whether it be pantheism, deism, monotheism or even polytheism. All inventions, you know that, I know that... the herd doesn't... still!


Actually, I'm pretty sure Dr. LaVey was a deist, and although Magus Gilmore calls himself an atheist, his belief seems to be more parallel with deism as well.

Deism
n. The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.


Edited by MALFORM (02/06/10 05:55 PM)
Edit Reason: Magus, not Magister
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#411428 - 02/06/10 01:58 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Machismo]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2151
Quote:
There are logical people and illogical people. You telling me you never met an illogical person?
Logical people live by logic. Illogical people don't. It's a lifestyle thing.

I've never met a person who's only made illogical statements. And no, it is not necessarily a lifestyle thing. As I said, it is a tool. To be more specific, it is one of the basic tools of the human mind!

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To be an atheist you have to be logical.

Obviously you haven't met that many atheists. Oh, and interesting that you should commit the fallacy of composition here.

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illogical because he lives by feelings, brainwashing, faith

OK. As much as I love Star Trek let me say that feelings really don't hinder logical thought that much. You know why? Because, as humans, they come natural to us. The only cases of "brainwashing" I've ever seen that were set up specifically to deflect ANY arguments were that of Jehovah's Witnesses. And, while I'm never going to outright defend faith, it simply does not hinder logical thought. Sorry, but it doesn't. Most religious faith deals with things which are as yet unexplained. The Catholic Church FULLY accepts evolution. Because they are able to separate faith from the scientific method, of which logic is the backbone.

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Being logical is a choice

Now, let's compare this to your first statement: "There are logical people and illogical people."

So, is it a choice, or is it intuitive? Well, I'd say on the whole it is intuitive, but each time you consciously use logic you are making a choice.

What seems to be stemming from you is this really immature religious prejudice. You've put up a mental block in your head that tells you no person who believes in a god can think logically, and that is simply not true. I'm not necessarily defending them, I'm simply defending the objective facts of the matter.

Typically when one is busy enjoying life he doesn't take time out of his day to verbally bash others (especially when he's only half right).

Lots of people come to this board mad at mommy and daddy for raising them Catholic or Jewish, or whatever. And through their childhood anger they extend it to the entire religious community everywhere and don a gigantic inverted cross and start listening to Dimmu Borgir. Well, as fun as it might be to be "blasphemous" it really looks ridiculous. Go put on a white linen shirt and smoke a cigar.

Unless you're willing to remove the blinders I'm done.
_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#411440 - 02/06/10 04:14 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: NapalmNick]
Machismo Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: NapalmNick
I've never met a person who's only made illogical statements.


Neither have I. Didn't say I had.

I was going to drop this back and forth we're doing, but further down you get a little rough, so I guess I'll do one more post and see if it gets us anywhere.

Everybody uses logic sometimes. Everybody makes logical statements somtimes. Even the kind of people I'm calling illogical. I can call them something else if that'll help. I'll call them X and I'll define X as people who will sometimes choose to judge truth by feelings instead of logic and will stick with that, even if challenged. Notice the "sometimes." I think that's part of why we don't seem to be communicating. I'm not talking about things that are true always or true never. X will judge truth by logic sometimes. But X will sometimes judge truth by feelings, and won't change their minds, even when logical arguments are put in front of them. I'm sure you've met X. I know I have.

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To be an atheist you have to be logical.

Obviously you haven't met that many atheists.


What else but logic would lead a person to atheism? I may have something to learn here. Cool if I do. I like to learn.

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illogical because he lives by feelings, brainwashing, faith

OK. As much as I love Star Trek let me say that feelings really don't hinder logical thought that much. You know why? Because, as humans, they come natural to us.


Feelings are great for deciding what I want or don't want. They suck for deciding what's true.

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The only cases of "brainwashing" I've ever seen that were set up specifically to deflect ANY arguments were that of Jehovah's Witnesses.


I'll use a different word: indoctrination. Many little kids are indoctrinated with faith by their parents and their religious communities. This is very effective because little kids haven't developed the mental defenses to fight off such things. Hell, their cerebrums aren't mature enough to even begin to do that.

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And, while I'm never going to outright defend faith, it simply does not hinder logical thought.


Faith is inherently illogical. The two things are opposites. Either you believe something for reasons of logic or you believe it on faith. Once you have faith as your starting point, yes, you can be logical from that point on. Thomas Aquinas was great at that. But if your premises are no good, your logic will be no good. Thomas Aquinas's premises were no good. He started from faith.

Faith is feeling-based. X believe something because it feels good to believe it, or it feels bad not to.

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Being logical is a choice

Now, let's compare this to your first statement: "There are logical people and illogical people."


Should be obvious but I'll spell out what I meant. Using my old wording, logical people choose to judge truth by logic, illogical people sometimes don't. But I'm using a different term now. X. People put themselves in the category of X by choice. They sometimes choose to judge truth by feelings instead of logic.

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So, is it a choice, or is it intuitive? Well, I'd say on the whole it is intuitive, but each time you consciously use logic you are making a choice.


I agree with the above.

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What seems to be stemming from you is this really immature religious prejudice.


This where you got a little rough, although really the only word in your sentence I don't like is "immature." I think I do have a prejudice against religion. I just don't think I'm immature. I'm prejudiced against feeling-based truth judgments. I oppose them. I'm their enemy. I guess I'm Spock-ish. Never thought of myself that way but if the shoe fits...

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You've put up a mental block in your head that tells you no person who believes in a god can think logically, and that is simply not true.


I don't think that and didn't say that. Here, I'll say it clearly. X can think logically. X often think logically. Sometimes they judge truth by feelings. That's anti-logical. Hey! There's a term I could use. Forget "illogical." I'll use anti-logical instead.

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Typically when one is busy enjoying life he doesn't take time out of his day to verbally bash others (especially when he's only half right).


I think you're aiming at me with that so I'll just say that I oppose X. It's important to me to do that. It's my Satan the adversary thing. I'm X's adversary.

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Lots of people come to this board mad at mommy and daddy for raising them Catholic or Jewish, or whatever.


Not me. My mommy and daddy raised me Catholic but I shook off the indoctrination. I'm not mad about it on a personal level but my mommy and daddy are members of X so to that extent I oppose them and with some malice, not because they're mommy and daddy but because they're X.

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And through their childhood anger they extend it to the entire religious community everywhere and don a gigantic inverted cross and start listening to Dimmu Borgir.


Ha! Now you've got me googling Dimmu Borgir. jack

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Well, as fun as it might be to be "blasphemous" it really looks ridiculous. Go put on a white linen shirt and smoke a cigar.


Some more rough stuff. But at this point I think I've explained myself as best I ever will so I'm satisfied.
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#411442 - 02/06/10 05:03 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Machismo]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
Nothin' wrong with Dimmu Borgir...
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#411444 - 02/06/10 05:34 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: M.D. Roche]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
Originally Posted By: MALFORM
Originally Posted By: PsychOff
whether it be pantheism, deism, monotheism or even polytheism. All inventions, you know that, I know that... the herd doesn't... still!


Actually, I'm pretty sure Dr. LaVey was a deist, and although Magister Gilmore calls himself an atheist, his belief seems to be more parallel with deism as well.

Deism
n. The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.


What in the heck lead you to that conclusion?

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#411446 - 02/06/10 05:54 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: TheDegenerate]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
The Satanic Bible, page 40, first paragraph. I'm too lazy to type it up.

Upon re-reading the passage: He doesn't suggest that God created the universe; he/it simply acts as a balancing factor in the universe. If he wasn't exactly a deist he definitely leans in that direction. Not saying there's anything wrong with that.

Magus Gilmore discussed his view on God in Inside the Church of Satan. I'm also too lazy to quote his exact words or find the exact moment when he discusses it, but you can watch it on YouTube.


Edited by MALFORM (02/06/10 06:32 PM)
Edit Reason: I'm neurotic
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#411456 - 02/06/10 06:27 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: M.D. Roche]
Machismo Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: MALFORM
Nothin' wrong with Dimmu Borgir...


I checked him out on Amazon. Me like! crossbones

Being strongly anti-Christian works for me and makes sense Satanically, I think. Doesn't mean everybody has to do it. Indifference is fine too, and might even work as a strategy to stake the heart of the thing. Why give the competitor free advertising? But Coke and Pepsi sometimes mention each other in commercials, in a negative way. That works too, under the right conditions. Hell, TSB doesn't pull any punches.
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#411459 - 02/06/10 06:57 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Machismo]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2151
Firstly allow me to apologize for my apparent rudeness. I occasionally use abrasive language when I'm trying to make a point, and it would appear to me that language was the core problem to begin with.

Quote:
But X will sometimes judge truth by feelings, and won't change their minds, even when logical arguments are put in front of them. I'm sure you've met X. I know I have.

Yes, I've met plenty of people like this. These tend to be fundamentalists who sincerely believe that EVERYTHING in the Bible is literally true and that if any of it can be proven false their entire faith is shattered. Creationists are a great example of this.

Quote:
What else but logic would lead a person to atheism? I may have something to learn here. Cool if I do. I like to learn.

I would imagine that those who have come to accept an atheistic worldview by means of logic are in the minority of said group. Most people I've encountered came to that conclusion by one of two ways: they are inherently atheistic (like myself, and by extension I am inherently I-theistic) or they notice atheism as a niche worldview and tack it on via a trending point of view. It's their "I'm an outsider" badge.

Quote:
Many little kids are indoctrinated with faith by their parents and their religious communities. This is very effective because little kids haven't developed the mental defenses to fight off such things. Hell, their cerebrums aren't mature enough to even begin to do that.

While this is definitely true I think those kids who are inherently atheistic (not needing some external source of salvation) will come around to a atheistic worldview quite naturally, regardless of upbringing. These people are no doubt extremely self-sufficient and more likely than not I-theists, and therefore very likely to be Satanists; at the very least living a very Satanic lifestyle.

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Either you believe something for reasons of logic or you believe it on faith.

Well, to avoid any semantics issues I'll agree with this so long as I make the distinction between "belief" and "assumption". There really is no way to 100% verify anything outside of your own consciousness is real. However, most rational people assume it is, and that they can learn from it. I'm sure there is a more proper scientific term for this, but I call it the Basic Assumption. Outside of that assumption a scientific understanding of the universe is to test and verify. It is also the root of skepticism. In this sense, any "beliefs" are illogical not because they are automatically false, but because they might be, and thus could be hindering any investigation into the matter.

The rest of my post got into some subjective areas and other things, which were borderline ad hominems in retrospect. eek

I personally don't find anti-theism or any kind of applied religious-bashing all that appealing. I spent the greater part of my teen years doing it and I got bored with it. Also, I don't like it when others do it to Satanism. There are certain things I'll speak out against (Islamic terrorism, creationism, etc.) but other than that I see it as their business and leave it alone.

But if someone doesn't see it my way, well, then that's their business too. wink
_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#411462 - 02/06/10 07:19 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Machismo]
Shade Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 6133
Loc: A Trailer Park
Originally Posted By: RealityPrinciple
Faith is inherently illogical. The two things are opposites.


I agree. I like the way you've explained stuff here but rather than quote a huge endless block I'll keep it to this. I thought Krakauer nailed it too in Under the Banner of Heaven when he said: "Faith is the very antithesis of reason, injudiciousness a crucial component to spiritual devotion. And when religious fanaticism supplants ratiocination, all bets are suddenly off. Anything can happen. Absolutely anything. Common sense is no match for the voice of God... Faith, by its very definition, tends to be impervious to intellectual argument or academic criticism. "

The people that Nick is describing -- smart folks, still believers -- mystify me. It must take some ironclad compartmentalization to be, say, a doctor and a devout Catholic. Or people just get what they need (inspiration, comfort, direction of some kind) from their Sunday visits and leave the really hardcore sociopathic stuff to the Mormons.

P.S. Thought you handled the rough stuff quite well. You know, mostly because you didn't use anymore torpedo imagery. coopdevil
_________________________
"What happens in the shadow, in the grey regions, also interests us – all that is elusive and fugitive, all that can be said in those beautiful half tones, or in whispers, in deep shade." ~ The Brothers Quay

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#411468 - 02/06/10 08:12 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Shade]
Delta Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 6747
Loc: Nar
Originally Posted By: Shade
The people that Nick is describing -- smart folks, still believers -- mystify me. It must take some ironclad compartmentalization to be, say, a doctor and a devout Catholic.


Amen to that. I have to wonder how many wise men of history who were both geniuses and devout whatevers really believed it or just didn't want to get Churched out of their reputation. The idiots believe, the wise men are martyred for disbelief, but the best of us know when to play the game.

On the other hand, my Father is one of the smartest men I ever met and very religious to his core. But then, one day he explained to me that he didn't really know if there was a god, he didn't really care. He went for the traditions he shared with his father, for the friends and food and so on.

Religious people surprise me from time to time. It's rare, but sometimes they can turn out to be good and religious people. It's a mistake to count the two as absolute mutual exclusives or to discount a good friend from one's life over their faith.

Even if they cut half your dick off over it.
_________________________




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#411474 - 02/06/10 09:05 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: M.D. Roche]
TheDegenerate Offline
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Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
What you wrote suggested that they believed in an actual entity called God.

My wife uses the explanation that there is some balancing force in the universe, which you could label as "God", but which may be little more than a mathematical equation that defines the function of the universe...like a script written in Python that tells the universe how to operate. Is that sort of what you mean?

I am going to go back and look up what you suggested out of curiosity, but I have a hard time swallowing that they believed in a literal, conscious entity of some kind.

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#411486 - 02/06/10 10:03 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: TheDegenerate]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
I suppose the word I meant to use was Pantheist. LaVey's words on God are quite similar to those of Albert Einstein. People have often debated whether or not Einstein believed in God too, but really he just used the word "God" to refer to nature and the cosmos.

As for Magus Gilmore, I wish I could remember the exact words he used. He either suggested deism or pantheism, but I don't know which.

EDIT: It turns out I was mistaken. I just watched the video clip in question and Gilmore said nothing of the sort. I don't know what the hell I was thinking. I apologize for all the confusion!

*puts on a dunce cap and goes to sit in a corner*


Edited by MALFORM (02/06/10 11:21 PM)
Edit Reason: D'oh!
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#411496 - 02/07/10 12:06 AM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: M.D. Roche]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 756
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
Speaking of Deism, go here;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

I think Anton believed in a force which is unknown or unable to be explained which is not mystical or supernatural and has a similarity to gravity. Unlike gravity, its function is to keep the flow of the universe. That is my take on it.

I could be wrong though. It's up to interpretation I guess.
_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

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#411498 - 02/07/10 01:00 AM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: M.D. Roche]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2151
I think what you're referring to is the interview he did with Wikipedia. In that he said that deism was a tolerable alternative to theism. That's a massive paraphrase, but yeah.
_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#411499 - 02/07/10 01:13 AM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: LordofDarkness]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2151
Speaking of deism, my brain is connecting the dots with some other things said in this thread. So bear with me.

It occurs to me that every intelligent (and logically consistent) religious person I've ever known was more or less a deist. Someone who doesn't waste too much time pondering the supernatural. The professor I was talking about, who is also a minister, never really said much of his personal beliefs other than the fact that he was a chaplain in the air force and had performed various religious ceremonies over the years as an officially recognized religious leader. His massive amounts of tolerance for other religions (including what would be expected of a college professor) was enough to make me think he definitely did not take the Bible literally.

If someone said that all Biblical Fundamentalists are illogical you'd get no argument from me.

Another strange occurrence is that more often than not these people tend to behave in a more or less Satanic manner. That may not be their personal philosophy, but their actions speak louder than their words. Of course this could be nothing more than me projecting my own values and perceptions onto others.

As for some kind of hidden "force" that balances the universe, sure. The great thing (and worst thing, depending on the context) is that the idea is so ambiguous. I am fairly certain there is nothing out there that is sentient and/or cares about us at all. But it is a big universe, and there are lots of unknowns. Whatever this theoretical force is, it's pointless to worship it; So I'm back to where I started: Myself as my own God.

And this God demands macaroni pictures!
_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#411502 - 02/07/10 02:18 AM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: NapalmNick]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1019
What about those tambourines made with rice and two paper plates stapled together?
_________________________

Refuse to die.

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#411503 - 02/07/10 02:26 AM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: TheAbysmal]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2151
LOL. You think I will be appeased by such nonsense? Only the finest 3rd grade arts & crafts macaroni pictures will suffice!

Sure, tambourines make cool noises, but you can't very well hang them on your wall and admire their awesomeness! The only condition which I'll accept your feeble tambourine is if it can effectively double as a frizberang. And yes, that is a frisbee/boomerang combination. grin
_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#411506 - 02/07/10 03:12 AM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Delta]
Machismo Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Delta
Religious people surprise me from time to time. It's rare, but sometimes they can turn out to be good and religious people. It's a mistake to count the two as absolute mutual exclusives or to discount a good friend from one's life over their faith.


I agree. I have breakfast once a month with a Lutheran pastor and Lutheran deacon, two good friends of mine. I just don't bother discussing religion with them, as that's the one aspect of them that I have nothing but contempt for. There are plenty of other things to talk about.

Quote:

Even if they cut half your dick off over it.


Ouch! I'll draw the line there, I think. vomit
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#411508 - 02/07/10 03:28 AM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Shade]
Machismo Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Shade
I thought Krakauer nailed it too in Under the Banner of Heaven when he said: "Faith is the very antithesis of reason, injudiciousness a crucial component to spiritual devotion. And when religious fanaticism supplants ratiocination, all bets are suddenly off. Anything can happen. Absolutely anything. Common sense is no match for the voice of God... Faith, by its very definition, tends to be impervious to intellectual argument or academic criticism."


Nice quote. The last sentence especially. No one will ever argue a believer out of his faith unless the believer has already started to question, which usually happens because the believer came to faith as a little kid through indoctrination he was powerless at that age to fight against, and now, as an adult, childhood faith and adult logical thinking are at war.

Quote:
It must take some ironclad compartmentalization to be, say, a doctor and a devout Catholic.


I agree. It's like they turn off the part of themselves that wants facts before making a judgment. Imagine if your doctor based his medical diagnosis on his feelings! skull
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#411514 - 02/07/10 04:21 AM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: TheDegenerate]
Machismo Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: TheDegenerate
My wife uses the explanation that there is some balancing force in the universe, which you could label as "God", but which may be little more than a mathematical equation that defines the function of the universe...like a script written in Python that tells the universe how to operate.


I don't know if your wife has read TSB, but if so, maybe she's remembering this quote from The Book of Lucifer: - Wanted! - God Dead or Alive...

"To the Satanist "God" - by whatever name he is called, or by no name at all - is seen as the balancing factor in nature, and not as being concerned with suffering. This powerful force which permeates and balances the universe is far too impersonal to care about the happiness or misery of flesh-and-blood creatures on this ball of dirt upon which we live."

I know of a balancing factor that really exists. Natural selection! It balances two things: one, the attack power of the predator versus the escape power of the prey, and two, how much of any trait a creature will have. The prey sometimes escapes because the predator is almost never massively superior. A trait will be fine-tuned at a certain level, not too much, not too little, but just right, like Goldilocks said about the baby bear's bed. It's the economics of survival. Everything comes at a cost, to be balanced against benefit.

The name I use for that is Satan!* I suspect Robert E. Howard meant to personify it as Crom. Richard Dawkins writes endlessly about it. It's reality bleak and bruising. Sigmund Freud wrote about the ego as the reality principle inside our heads. My ego reacts to natural selection as something important to think about and learn from. Satan!

What better adversarial position to take? Look at the bible-thumpers. What have they chosen as their big enemy to attack again and again? Natural selection!

The balance aspect is a lesson worth learning. Cost/benefit analysis is the new theology! coopdevil

*Satan is my name for other things too, of course.

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#411530 - 02/07/10 10:48 AM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Machismo]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
I personally feel that eliminating the word "God" completely out of ones vocabulary makes life a lot simpler--maybe with the exception of "god damn!" or the occasional "oh my god!", which are mostly forces of habit.

Call me practical. *shrug*
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#411532 - 02/07/10 11:06 AM Peter Gilmore on deism [Re: M.D. Roche]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
I found it! The interview from WikiNews is indeed what I was thinking of. Thanks, Nick.

"My real feeling is that anybody who believes in supernatural entities on some level is insane. Whether they believe in The Devil or God, they are abdicating reason. If they really believe they are in communication with some sort of interventionist deity…you know, somebody can be a deist and think that maybe there was some sort of force that launched everything and now has nothing to do with it. That’s not anything you can prove. It’s also not a matter of faith. It’s a matter of making a choice between whether there was something or there wasn’t. I think maybe that is the most rational decision. I think science makes it look otherwise, but I don’t think somebody like that is mad. But anybody who believes in some kind of existence in deity or spirits or anything that intervenes in their life is not somebody I hold in any kind of esteem."


Edited by MALFORM (02/07/10 11:06 AM)
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#411705 - 02/08/10 03:28 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: PsychOff]
Insurgent Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 2309
"At what point do I step in to defend rationalization, logic, science and atheism?"

I for one couldn't tell you. Depends on the situation.

I will, however, tell you that I myself make no claims about universal origins, origins of life or the existence or non-existence of any non-religious deity. My beliefs or lack thereof are based strictly on the here and now and I consider anything else to be folly and, given my goals in life, a waste of time.

I refuse to say there is no god. I am, however, quite happy with saying "Your god does not exist."

In this sense, in the modern definition of the term and where Atheist evangelists have taken it, I am not an Atheist nor do I consider it to be a defining characteristic of Satanism.

I say this because your post asks the question as though all Satanists here are, in fact, strong Atheists.
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#411708 - 02/08/10 04:21 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Machismo]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11532
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: RealityPrinciple
To be an atheist you have to be logical.

No, the only requirement for atheism is lacking a belief in the existence of deity. How that stance was arrived at, is irrelevant to the definition.

Quote:
What else but logic would lead a person to atheism?

Somebody's atheism could be the result of...
  • Indoctrination. For example, many people who grew up in the Soviet Union were taught atheism as a component of communist ideology. Some people slowly become atheists after hanging out with other atheists or being married to one for a long time.
  • Emotional trauma. Some people assume that benevolence and omnipotence are deity requirements, and thus after experiencing some traumatic event in life, conclude that deities don't exist.
  • Rebellion against authority (parents, local religious leaders, etc.)
  • The false assumption that theism is incompatible with other unrelated things that the person feels strongly about (science, certain political views, etc.)
  • The false assumption that it's the only other option to the religion of their parents and/or culture.
This last one is especially common among self-described "atheists".

Quote:
Faith is inherently illogical. The two things are opposites. Either you believe something for reasons of logic or you believe it on faith.

A fact which you and so many other atheists overlook, is that theists largely do consider their belief in deity to be a logical conclusion. (See the poll in "How We Believe" by Michael Shermer, p75-87). Faulty premises? Sure. But that doesn't make it a pure act of "faith" or mean that there's no logic involved.

Quote:
Once you have faith as your starting point, yes, you can be logical from that point on. Thomas Aquinas was great at that. But if your premises are no good, your logic will be no good.

No, the validity of premises has absolutely no bearing on whether or not a logical argument is fallacious. The argument of "all horses are green; my cell phone is a horse; therefore it's green" is no less logical than saying "all insects have 6 legs; a bee is an insect; therefore a bee has 6 legs". The underlying logic of both arguments is the same, and logically correct, since neither is a fallacy.
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#411800 - 02/09/10 05:14 AM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Bill_M]
Machismo Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Bill_M
Somebody's atheism could be the result of...
  • Indoctrination. For example, many people who grew up in the Soviet Union were taught atheism as a component of communist ideology. Some people slowly become atheists after hanging out with other atheists or being married to one for a long time.


Now that's something I never thought of. Should have, in hindsight. Good point.

Quote:
  • Emotional trauma. Some people assume that benevolence and omnipotence are deity requirements, and thus after experiencing some traumatic event in life, conclude that deities don't exist.


  • Faulty premise! But you get into that below. I'm not a logician. When I hear a faulty premise, I call it illogical. Bad habit on my part. I'll stop. Just calling it faulty would be better. Or plain stupid! It's obvious that God could exist without being benevolent or omnipotent or omniscient. Anyone who can't see that is a dipshit.

    Quote:
  • Rebellion against authority (parents, local religious leaders, etc.)


  • Wouldn't that guy just be saying he's atheist? I guess maybe not. Feeling-based truth judgments blindside me all the time. I just don't get them. Secret of lesser magic, I guess. Never been my strong suit.

    Quote:
  • The false assumption that theism is incompatible with other unrelated things that the person feels strongly about (science, certain political views, etc.)


  • Another kind of feeling-based truth judgment that blindsided me.

    Quote:
  • The false assumption that it's the only other option to the religion of their parents and/or culture.
  • This last one is especially common among self-described "atheists".


    Faulty premise again. I won't call it illogical. This old dog is learning a new trick. I'll call it plain stupid! Of course God could exist and be nothing like Jesus or Jehovah or Allah. But your point is that stupid atheists exist. Your point's a good one. I don't seem to meet these assholes. I need to get out more.

    Quote:
    No, the validity of premises has absolutely no bearing on whether or not a logical argument is fallacious. The argument of "all horses are green; my cell phone is a horse; therefore it's green" is no less logical than saying "all insects have 6 legs; a bee is an insect; therefore a bee has 6 legs". The underlying logic of both arguments is the same, and logically correct, since neither is a fallacy.


    Got it. The distinction was lost on me before. If your conclusion is false, who cares if your logic is valid? Logicians care. Got it. I would have said that the first rule of being logical is to check your premises. I'd be wrong. I need a different word than logical. Napalm Nick already made that clear to me. Just not sure what word to use. People who don't check their premises are stupid. People who do are smart? I want a narrower word. One that means premise-checker. Or maybe I should make one up and post it at Unwords! jack
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    #411809 - 02/09/10 06:43 AM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Machismo]
    NapalmNick Offline
    CoS Member

    Registered: 08/23/08
    Posts: 2151
    Whatever word you come up with make sure it sounds really offensive. Remember, two of the most offensive words in the English language have "gg" in the middle of them; perhaps that will give it a boost. grin
    _________________________
    "Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

    "May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

    "[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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    #411848 - 02/09/10 10:47 AM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Machismo]
    Bill_M Offline
    CoS Reverend

    Registered: 07/28/01
    Posts: 11532
    Loc: New England, USA
    Originally Posted By: RealityPrinciple
    But your point is that stupid atheists exist. Your point's a good one. I don't seem to meet these assholes. I need to get out more.

    If you really want to see them come out, mention "Satanism". Then watch them try to argue against it.

    Quote:
    I need a different word than logical.

    "Rational"?
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    #411859 - 02/09/10 11:45 AM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Bill_M]
    Bill_M Offline
    CoS Reverend

    Registered: 07/28/01
    Posts: 11532
    Loc: New England, USA
    While on the subject, the following is one of the best pages I've seen for a basic review of Boolean logic and a formal guide to different fallacies. And from an atheism site, of all places. I've had it bookmarked for at least 10 years:
    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html
    _________________________
    Reverend Bill M.

    http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
    New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

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    #411895 - 02/09/10 06:13 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Bill_M]
    NapalmNick Offline
    CoS Member

    Registered: 08/23/08
    Posts: 2151
    That's a pretty bulky list of fallacies. The current book I'm reading (which I may or may not review here) has a MASSIVE list of fallacies. Always good to know them.

    Overall a pretty concise page. I've bookmarked it as well.

    For anyone interested, a decent book to start you on logical thinking is Being Logical by D.Q. McInerny.
    _________________________
    "Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

    "May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

    "[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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    #412380 - 02/13/10 03:40 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Machismo]
    Machismo Offline
    CoS Member

    Registered: 02/05/10
    Posts: 1132
    Loc: New Jersey
    Originally Posted By: RealityPrinciple
    I have breakfast once a month with a Lutheran pastor and Lutheran deacon, two good friends of mine. I just don't bother discussing religion with them, as that's the one aspect of them that I have nothing but contempt for. There are plenty of other things to talk about.


    So I had breakfast with the Lutheran deacon this morning, and discovered he's a freaking Deist! He knew the word and applied it to himself. He ended up there after thinking hard about how cruel life can be and how hit or miss prayer is. Hell, it turns out he isn't that far from atheism! He started to say he was agnostic but I explained strong and weak atheism and he said the weak kind was more and more where his head was at. I'm a weak atheist too. The Lutheran deacon and I are freaking soul mates! Not morally, of course. Although, hell, you never know with this guy! Maybe his morals are different from what I would have thought.
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    #412411 - 02/13/10 09:03 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Machismo]
    Nemo Offline
    CoS Magister

    Registered: 10/06/02
    Posts: 12494
    Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
    Yes.

    Never judge a book by its cover.

    Some of the most Satanic people I know are not Satanists!

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    #412446 - 02/14/10 12:51 AM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Nemo]
    Marko Offline


    Registered: 02/13/10
    Posts: 11
    Loc: Sweden
    Define the word "god" for me. To most people it seems to be a sentinent, creating, omnipotent entity but to quote a great mind known as "Epicurus" I say:

    “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
    Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing?
    Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing?
    Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing?
    Then why call him God?”


    But if the term "god" is simply "the bringer of life", then by logic, the natural "god" might be the sun.
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    #412517 - 02/14/10 10:06 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Marko]
    Nemo Offline
    CoS Magister

    Registered: 10/06/02
    Posts: 12494
    Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
    Quote:
    Define the word "god" for me.


    No need to reinvent the wheel. grin

    Here you go:

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/god

    Of the four definitions offered, two are pretty secular:

    "a person or thing of supreme value" and "a powerful ruler".

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    #412770 - 02/16/10 02:41 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Nemo]
    Marko Offline


    Registered: 02/13/10
    Posts: 11
    Loc: Sweden
    Originally Posted By: Nemo
    Quote:
    Define the word "god" for me.


    No need to reinvent the wheel. grin

    Here you go:

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/god

    Of the four definitions offered, two are pretty secular:

    "a person or thing of supreme value" and "a powerful ruler".


    Then I choose me as of "supreme value" grin
    Next comes the sun, bringer of life
    _________________________
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    And you can't stop me turning
    Cause i'm a sun, i'm a sun you can move you can run
    But you can't stop me burning

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    #412774 - 02/16/10 03:04 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Marko]
    Bill_M Offline
    CoS Reverend

    Registered: 07/28/01
    Posts: 11532
    Loc: New England, USA
    Pretty much every definition of "God" I've heard is either so overly specific that the notion is a self-contradiction (e.g. "omnipotent AND benevolent AND omniscient") or so vague that it's a useless personification (e.g. "God is love").

    Most atheists will say that their reason for not believing in deity is the "lack of evidence". But when it comes to religious beliefs, validation is really just based on subjective experiences and using deity as the explanation for that. Most on-line atheist/theist fights come down to the theists insisting that their subjective experiences have to be objectively valid to everybody else, while the atheists demand empirical evidence for other people's subjective experiences.

    My main reason for being an atheist is that I don't need theism. I've simply found the concept of deity to be not only a useless model, but counter-productive to understanding anything.
    _________________________
    Reverend Bill M.

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