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#411132 - 02/03/10 07:37 PM A Biblical Quandary
I'mPerfecting Offline


Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 221
Loc: Florida
Dear Satan, perhaps you can help, my question is:

How is it "every one" seems to know about Lucifer's battle in heaven and the fall from grace? When it isn't in the bible and I can't even find a decent copy of the books of Enoch in which it's written.

I have many books on the subject of apocryphal texts and several copies of the book of Enoch. 13 to be exact each one is different. None of them illustrate the story in quite the same way as it's past down among x-tian sects.

How is it they even know the story?
The devil is only mentioned 4 times in the bible once with Job, once in the desert with Jesus, once in revelation I think, and then in part about the "Morning Star" that is in reference to a quote made by the King of Babylon.
Lucifer Morning Star isn't even a part of the story.
How do they know that name or have a myth for him?
A myth that can't even be researched to give it plausible understanding of where it came from.

I know already the morning star derivative is base on Venus and some how went through the same process as Christmas to control a pagan ideal but it's not clear or straight forward. Also unclear is how Lux Ferre/Ferra in latin = light to bear became light bringer = lux lucis addo in latin.

I researched that part of it along time ago and attempted to track down the books of Enoch. To my dismay "New Age" reproductions have made it nearly imposable it get just a plan and simple version. You know dead sea scroll, next page translation. Hell, I even settle for just the direct dead sea scroll version and translate it my self.

I have yet to meet someone like Ayn Rand with no knowledge of religion even here among Satan. I find I'm even less likely to find someone who doesn't know the story of Lucifer despite the fact it isn't in the bible and they never read the books of Enoch.

My curiosity may seem childish but I'm tired of the answer god works in mysterious way. I have also check the internet to no avail. Probably dew to my lack of patience with it.

I'm looking for a book, a history of how Lucifer's story became common knowledge, or a web page that can illustrate how this happened.

I figure this question doesn't really have an answer. I was just hoping maybe there's a text I missed that might have the answer in it. I also figured if any one knew they'd be here. With all the information among you maybe I over looked something.

I know it's silly but the answer to this question is important to a sociological analyst.
Thank you in advance to anyone willing to take the time to help me with this quandary.
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#411137 - 02/03/10 08:43 PM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: I'mPerfecting]
reprobate Offline

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Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
The 17th century poet John Milton immortalized the story in his epic poem, Paradise Lost. It's one of the most important works of the English language, up there with any Shakespeare play. Most people are vaguely aware of it in the same way they are vaguely aware of "to be or not to be".
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#411139 - 02/03/10 09:15 PM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: reprobate]
NapalmNick Offline
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Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2153
A decent read. Of course the symbolism is great, and one wonders whether or not Milton (a Christian priest) intended his portrayal of Satan to be so positive.

But a lot of the text in using extremely archaic terms that make Shakespeare a walk in the park. If you're assigned to read it you'll hate it; if you're reading it by choice it's a good challenge. wink

EDIT: Sorry, that was more toward Warlock Reprobate than the original post. Except the end part because I'm fairly sure by the language he used that he has in fact already read Paradise Lost

Per the original post:

Quote:
How do they know that name or have a myth for him?
A myth that can't even be researched to give it plausible understanding of where it came from.

Well, Christianity, like most religions, has historical scholars who are interested in learning the roots of their religions and how it affects them today. The obvious roots of Christianity lie in fact within Judaism. Hebrew is the holy language of Judaism (even though more Jews speak Yiddish, a sort of German-heavy Hebrew hybrid); as I'm sure you know, the word Satan means opposer or accuser in Hebrew.

But that's all it is. A word, not a name. Christianity simply personified it. The serpent was not referred to as "Satan". It was referred to as "serpent". If there are any Jews who believe in a singular, literal Satan, it is no doubt the cultural rubbings-off from Christianity.

To the Jews a vague bad guy works. The Christians are much more whiny (amazingly) and need a definitive figure to point at for all the shit in their lives.


Edited by NapalmNick (02/03/10 09:28 PM)
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#411143 - 02/03/10 10:23 PM Satan replies. [Re: I'mPerfecting]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12591
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Dear I'mPerfecting,

I just spoke with Ayn Rand (you didn't think she was going upstairs, did you?), and she said she was uninterested in my origins or any other supernatural deity, devil, demon, or other such imaginary creature.

She is a delightful person and I enjoy her company down here a lot.

Sincerely Yours,

Satan

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#411145 - 02/03/10 10:32 PM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: NapalmNick]
reprobate Offline

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Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Of course the symbolism is great, and one wonders whether or not Milton (a Christian priest) intended his portrayal of Satan to be so positive.

"The reason Milton wrote in fetters when he wrote of Angels & God, and at liberty when of Devils & Hell, is because he was a true Poet and of the Devils party without knowing it." -- Wm Blake, 1793
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#411152 - 02/04/10 12:11 AM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: reprobate]
VictorWolf Offline
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Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 237
I think by Milton's personal standards, Adam and Eve were the heroes. Being well aware of the epic tradition and mythology (awareness that he couldn't stop writing about), Milton painted Satan in the way of a very old image of an epic hero. Compare him to various others (Beowulf, Achilles, etc) and they have all a sort of similar attitude. Facing odds that they cannot necessarily win just because its better to face them.

But by giving these qualities to the symbol of supreme Evil, Milton seems to suggest that these are no longer heroic qualities. The heroes then would be Adam and Eve who, though they are kicked out of the Garden, still keep their faith in and devotion to God.

Just some thoughts I had been having recently. The whole thing is lost anyway because Adam and Eve still suck and Satan is still so much more awesome.
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#411177 - 02/04/10 11:00 AM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: VictorWolf]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Yes, that's correct. Milton was a devout Puritan and would never have granted that any of Satan's characteristics are heroic or worthy.

Blake's point, though, is that even to promote his religious beliefs, Milton still had to tell a good story, and a good story needs an outstanding and awesome villain. And Milton was too good of a poet to let his didactic goals interfere with good poetry. So, Blake says, Milton wound up painting Satan as a hero despite his own views and intentions. That's why Blake says, he was of the Devil's party "without knowing it"! grin
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#411186 - 02/04/10 12:59 PM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: NapalmNick]
John Prophet Offline

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Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 995
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: NapalmNick
A decent read. Of course the symbolism is great, and one wonders whether or not Milton (a Christian priest) intended his portrayal of Satan to be so positive.


Aside from what has already been said, we should also remember that what we consider “positive” and what many Christians consider “positive”; are often two entirely different things. After all, we’re talking about people who believe that total submission to God, is a good thing.

Because of this fundamental difference in worldview, you can have a story that is, at least to some extent, both inspirational to people who think like Christians and people who think like Satanists; simultaneously. Whether people choose to root for the “hero” or the “villain” in a story, can have as much to do with their individual worldview and where they’re coming from; as it does with what the author intended.
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#411188 - 02/04/10 01:06 PM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: I'mPerfecting]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Originally Posted By: I'mPerfecting
How is it they even know the story?


Congratulations on learning that about 60% of what Crosstitutes believe,is based PURELY on assumption,and not material.
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#411189 - 02/04/10 01:07 PM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: I'mPerfecting]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3408
Scholarly translation (not new age) of the book of Enoch.

A scholarly summary of the story of the fall in the book of Enoch can be found at the site Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean.

Quote:
Rebellious, fallen angels and the flood: 1 Enoch (Satan 4)
Posted by Phil Harland. Categories: Apocalypticism , History of Satan , Jewish Pseudepigrapha and Apocrypha


A very important part of Satan’s identity within Christianity is the notion that Satan is the chief angel among a group that rebelled against God and fell from their original position in the heavenly realm. We first have clear signs of this critical component in Satan’s story around 200 BCE in a Jewish writing in the Pseudepigrapha known as 1 Enoch (text and introductions online here). 1 Enoch is an apocalypse in terms of genre and is a composite work, divided into five books, with book one (chapters 1-36) being among the earliest (on which go to my earlier post here for further clarification).

What is most important here is that book one of 1 Enoch presents a midrash (interpretation) and considerable expansion of a few mysterious verses in Genesis (6:1-8): the account of the “sons of God” (angelic figures) mating with human women that immediately precedes the story of God sending the flood. “Enoch’s” visions explain the origins of evil and sin among humanity, and in this case suggest that ultimately evil came from the divine realm by way of fallen angels. Issues regarding the degree to which humans, on the one hand, or divine beings (angels), on the other, were responsible for the introduction and continuation of evil and sin among humanity would continue to occupy those who told and re-told the story of Satan in subsequent centuries. Some would configure things differently than book one of 1 Enoch does.

In the process of explaining the origins of evil, this author seems to blend together two separate traditions that existed before his time concerning a conspiracy among certain angels (perhaps drawing on a lost work called the “Book of Noah”, mentioned in the book of Jubilees ch. 10, for one of these traditions). The reason we can detect these traditions is that, in 1 Enoch, there are inconsistencies in who was the leader of the rebel angels (see further John J. Collins, The Apocalyptic Imagination). At times the author speaks of Semyaz (Semihazah) as the chief and at others of Azazel (Asa’el). Not only that, but the author seems to have preserved the different emphases of each tradition. The Semyaz material portrays the conspiracy against God as centred on the sexual act of union with humans and the Azazel tradition focusses on how the fallen angels subsequently reveal secrets of heaven to humanity, including skills that led to war and seduction, to the general chaos that brings the flood. For this author, the offspring of the mixing of divine and human are giants whose spirits after death are demons that continue to mislead humanity (15:8-12).

The result of this whole conspiracy is war and chaos on earth. God consults with his trusted angels, such as Michael and Raphael, to arrange punishment of both the humans and the fallen angels, referring to the end of days in the process:

“then spoke the Most High. . . ‘the earth and everything will be destroyed. And the deluge is about to come upon all the earth; and all that is in it will be destroyed.’ . . . And secondly the Lord said to Raphael, ‘Bind Azazel hand and foot and throw him into the darkness!’ And he (Raphael) made a hole in the desert. . . he threw on top of him (Azazel) rugged and sharp rocks. And he covered his face in order that he may not see light; and in order that he may be sent into the fire on the great day of judgment.” (1 Enoch 10:1-7; trans. by E. Isaac in James H. Charlesworth, ed. The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha [2 vols. New York: Doubleday, 1983-85], p. 17)

The imprisonment and end-time fate of this fallen angel here resembles the fate of “the ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan” in John’s Apocalypse (20:1-10), as we shall soon see. As in other apocalyptic writings, the flood of long ago becomes a precursor or foreshadow of God’s final intervention in the end times, the “great day of judgment”, when the angels who rebelled, along with the humans who sided with them by doing evil, will meet their end. The righteous ones, on the other hand, will go on to live in a new world cleansed “from all sin and from all iniquity” (see 10:17-22).

The name “Satan” itself does not appear here at all, but the fallen angels story was soon to be linked up with passages involving the angelic adversary (”satan”) in the Hebrew Bible, as we begin to see in the likes of Jubilees (chapters 10-11; c. 150-105 BCE). Still later (in the second and third centuries CE), this notion of fallen angels would also be linked up (by Christian authors) with a passage that originally referred to the Babylonian king as cosmic rebel in Isaiah 14, the “Day Star, Son of Dawn” who falls from heaven (where he imagines himself to belong). Part of the phrase just mentioned was translated into Latin by Jerome (in 410 CE) as “Lucifer”. Looking far ahead to the 1600s, it would be hard to imagine Milton’s Paradise Lost without the story of Satan or Lucifer as the chief rebel angel who fell from heaven’s height.

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#411319 - 02/05/10 06:30 PM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: NapalmNick]
Machismo Offline
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Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: NapalmNick
But a lot of the text in using extremely archaic terms that make Shakespeare a walk in the park. If you're assigned to read it you'll hate it; if you're reading it by choice it's a good challenge. wink


Paradise Lost would make a great graphic novel. I checked Amazon and no such animal. Too bad. I would have bought it.
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#411338 - 02/05/10 07:38 PM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: reprobate]
Discipline Offline
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Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
I would assume Voltaire would have argued otherwise on the importance of Milton. Voltaire in Candide criticizes Milton's work, perhaps in a form of satire, but it is interesting nonetheless considering Voltaire's attack on the idea of happiness.

But I am rambling.
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#411354 - 02/05/10 10:23 PM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: Discipline]
reprobate Offline

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Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
What would Monsieur François-Marie Arouet know about ENGLISH literature? wink
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#411382 - 02/06/10 04:16 AM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: I'mPerfecting]
LordofDarkness Offline
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Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
Originally Posted By: I'mPerfecting
How is it "every one" seems to know about Lucifer's battle in heaven and the fall from grace? When it isn't in the bible ...


Look up Revelation 12:7 - 9, and Isaiah 14:12-16.

As for the book of Enoch, look up 29:4 and 31:4

After I get back on the computer, I'll research a little further and explain everything else you asked.

Originally Posted By: NapalmNick
But that's all it is. A word, not a name. Christianity simply personified it. The serpent was not referred to as "Satan". It was referred to as "serpent". If there are any Jews who believe in a singular, literal Satan, it is no doubt the cultural rubbings-off from Christianity.


I agree.


Edited by LordOfDarkness (02/06/10 04:30 AM)
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#411415 - 02/06/10 11:11 AM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: reprobate]
Discipline Offline
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Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Never listen to a rich noble French man. They always have something to complain about. confused
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"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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