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#411132 - 02/03/10 07:37 PM A Biblical Quandary
I'mPerfecting Offline


Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 221
Loc: Florida
Dear Satan, perhaps you can help, my question is:

How is it "every one" seems to know about Lucifer's battle in heaven and the fall from grace? When it isn't in the bible and I can't even find a decent copy of the books of Enoch in which it's written.

I have many books on the subject of apocryphal texts and several copies of the book of Enoch. 13 to be exact each one is different. None of them illustrate the story in quite the same way as it's past down among x-tian sects.

How is it they even know the story?
The devil is only mentioned 4 times in the bible once with Job, once in the desert with Jesus, once in revelation I think, and then in part about the "Morning Star" that is in reference to a quote made by the King of Babylon.
Lucifer Morning Star isn't even a part of the story.
How do they know that name or have a myth for him?
A myth that can't even be researched to give it plausible understanding of where it came from.

I know already the morning star derivative is base on Venus and some how went through the same process as Christmas to control a pagan ideal but it's not clear or straight forward. Also unclear is how Lux Ferre/Ferra in latin = light to bear became light bringer = lux lucis addo in latin.

I researched that part of it along time ago and attempted to track down the books of Enoch. To my dismay "New Age" reproductions have made it nearly imposable it get just a plan and simple version. You know dead sea scroll, next page translation. Hell, I even settle for just the direct dead sea scroll version and translate it my self.

I have yet to meet someone like Ayn Rand with no knowledge of religion even here among Satan. I find I'm even less likely to find someone who doesn't know the story of Lucifer despite the fact it isn't in the bible and they never read the books of Enoch.

My curiosity may seem childish but I'm tired of the answer god works in mysterious way. I have also check the internet to no avail. Probably dew to my lack of patience with it.

I'm looking for a book, a history of how Lucifer's story became common knowledge, or a web page that can illustrate how this happened.

I figure this question doesn't really have an answer. I was just hoping maybe there's a text I missed that might have the answer in it. I also figured if any one knew they'd be here. With all the information among you maybe I over looked something.

I know it's silly but the answer to this question is important to a sociological analyst.
Thank you in advance to anyone willing to take the time to help me with this quandary.
_________________________
"...And the truth that makes us laugh, will make you cry!"
"...Porcelain in a paper cup world."
~Almost Alice~

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#411137 - 02/03/10 08:43 PM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: I'mPerfecting]
reprobate Offline

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Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
The 17th century poet John Milton immortalized the story in his epic poem, Paradise Lost. It's one of the most important works of the English language, up there with any Shakespeare play. Most people are vaguely aware of it in the same way they are vaguely aware of "to be or not to be".
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#411139 - 02/03/10 09:15 PM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: reprobate]
NapalmNick Offline
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Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2153
A decent read. Of course the symbolism is great, and one wonders whether or not Milton (a Christian priest) intended his portrayal of Satan to be so positive.

But a lot of the text in using extremely archaic terms that make Shakespeare a walk in the park. If you're assigned to read it you'll hate it; if you're reading it by choice it's a good challenge. wink

EDIT: Sorry, that was more toward Warlock Reprobate than the original post. Except the end part because I'm fairly sure by the language he used that he has in fact already read Paradise Lost

Per the original post:

Quote:
How do they know that name or have a myth for him?
A myth that can't even be researched to give it plausible understanding of where it came from.

Well, Christianity, like most religions, has historical scholars who are interested in learning the roots of their religions and how it affects them today. The obvious roots of Christianity lie in fact within Judaism. Hebrew is the holy language of Judaism (even though more Jews speak Yiddish, a sort of German-heavy Hebrew hybrid); as I'm sure you know, the word Satan means opposer or accuser in Hebrew.

But that's all it is. A word, not a name. Christianity simply personified it. The serpent was not referred to as "Satan". It was referred to as "serpent". If there are any Jews who believe in a singular, literal Satan, it is no doubt the cultural rubbings-off from Christianity.

To the Jews a vague bad guy works. The Christians are much more whiny (amazingly) and need a definitive figure to point at for all the shit in their lives.


Edited by NapalmNick (02/03/10 09:28 PM)
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#411143 - 02/03/10 10:23 PM Satan replies. [Re: I'mPerfecting]
Nemo Offline
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Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Dear I'mPerfecting,

I just spoke with Ayn Rand (you didn't think she was going upstairs, did you?), and she said she was uninterested in my origins or any other supernatural deity, devil, demon, or other such imaginary creature.

She is a delightful person and I enjoy her company down here a lot.

Sincerely Yours,

Satan

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#411145 - 02/03/10 10:32 PM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: NapalmNick]
reprobate Offline

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Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Of course the symbolism is great, and one wonders whether or not Milton (a Christian priest) intended his portrayal of Satan to be so positive.

"The reason Milton wrote in fetters when he wrote of Angels & God, and at liberty when of Devils & Hell, is because he was a true Poet and of the Devils party without knowing it." -- Wm Blake, 1793
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#411152 - 02/04/10 12:11 AM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: reprobate]
VictorWolf Offline
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Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 237
I think by Milton's personal standards, Adam and Eve were the heroes. Being well aware of the epic tradition and mythology (awareness that he couldn't stop writing about), Milton painted Satan in the way of a very old image of an epic hero. Compare him to various others (Beowulf, Achilles, etc) and they have all a sort of similar attitude. Facing odds that they cannot necessarily win just because its better to face them.

But by giving these qualities to the symbol of supreme Evil, Milton seems to suggest that these are no longer heroic qualities. The heroes then would be Adam and Eve who, though they are kicked out of the Garden, still keep their faith in and devotion to God.

Just some thoughts I had been having recently. The whole thing is lost anyway because Adam and Eve still suck and Satan is still so much more awesome.
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#411177 - 02/04/10 11:00 AM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: VictorWolf]
reprobate Offline

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Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Yes, that's correct. Milton was a devout Puritan and would never have granted that any of Satan's characteristics are heroic or worthy.

Blake's point, though, is that even to promote his religious beliefs, Milton still had to tell a good story, and a good story needs an outstanding and awesome villain. And Milton was too good of a poet to let his didactic goals interfere with good poetry. So, Blake says, Milton wound up painting Satan as a hero despite his own views and intentions. That's why Blake says, he was of the Devil's party "without knowing it"! grin
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#411186 - 02/04/10 12:59 PM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: NapalmNick]
John Prophet Offline

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Originally Posted By: NapalmNick
A decent read. Of course the symbolism is great, and one wonders whether or not Milton (a Christian priest) intended his portrayal of Satan to be so positive.


Aside from what has already been said, we should also remember that what we consider “positive” and what many Christians consider “positive”; are often two entirely different things. After all, we’re talking about people who believe that total submission to God, is a good thing.

Because of this fundamental difference in worldview, you can have a story that is, at least to some extent, both inspirational to people who think like Christians and people who think like Satanists; simultaneously. Whether people choose to root for the “hero” or the “villain” in a story, can have as much to do with their individual worldview and where they’re coming from; as it does with what the author intended.
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#411188 - 02/04/10 01:06 PM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: I'mPerfecting]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Originally Posted By: I'mPerfecting
How is it they even know the story?


Congratulations on learning that about 60% of what Crosstitutes believe,is based PURELY on assumption,and not material.
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#411189 - 02/04/10 01:07 PM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: I'mPerfecting]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
Scholarly translation (not new age) of the book of Enoch.

A scholarly summary of the story of the fall in the book of Enoch can be found at the site Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean.

Quote:
Rebellious, fallen angels and the flood: 1 Enoch (Satan 4)
Posted by Phil Harland. Categories: Apocalypticism , History of Satan , Jewish Pseudepigrapha and Apocrypha


A very important part of Satan’s identity within Christianity is the notion that Satan is the chief angel among a group that rebelled against God and fell from their original position in the heavenly realm. We first have clear signs of this critical component in Satan’s story around 200 BCE in a Jewish writing in the Pseudepigrapha known as 1 Enoch (text and introductions online here). 1 Enoch is an apocalypse in terms of genre and is a composite work, divided into five books, with book one (chapters 1-36) being among the earliest (on which go to my earlier post here for further clarification).

What is most important here is that book one of 1 Enoch presents a midrash (interpretation) and considerable expansion of a few mysterious verses in Genesis (6:1-8): the account of the “sons of God” (angelic figures) mating with human women that immediately precedes the story of God sending the flood. “Enoch’s” visions explain the origins of evil and sin among humanity, and in this case suggest that ultimately evil came from the divine realm by way of fallen angels. Issues regarding the degree to which humans, on the one hand, or divine beings (angels), on the other, were responsible for the introduction and continuation of evil and sin among humanity would continue to occupy those who told and re-told the story of Satan in subsequent centuries. Some would configure things differently than book one of 1 Enoch does.

In the process of explaining the origins of evil, this author seems to blend together two separate traditions that existed before his time concerning a conspiracy among certain angels (perhaps drawing on a lost work called the “Book of Noah”, mentioned in the book of Jubilees ch. 10, for one of these traditions). The reason we can detect these traditions is that, in 1 Enoch, there are inconsistencies in who was the leader of the rebel angels (see further John J. Collins, The Apocalyptic Imagination). At times the author speaks of Semyaz (Semihazah) as the chief and at others of Azazel (Asa’el). Not only that, but the author seems to have preserved the different emphases of each tradition. The Semyaz material portrays the conspiracy against God as centred on the sexual act of union with humans and the Azazel tradition focusses on how the fallen angels subsequently reveal secrets of heaven to humanity, including skills that led to war and seduction, to the general chaos that brings the flood. For this author, the offspring of the mixing of divine and human are giants whose spirits after death are demons that continue to mislead humanity (15:8-12).

The result of this whole conspiracy is war and chaos on earth. God consults with his trusted angels, such as Michael and Raphael, to arrange punishment of both the humans and the fallen angels, referring to the end of days in the process:

“then spoke the Most High. . . ‘the earth and everything will be destroyed. And the deluge is about to come upon all the earth; and all that is in it will be destroyed.’ . . . And secondly the Lord said to Raphael, ‘Bind Azazel hand and foot and throw him into the darkness!’ And he (Raphael) made a hole in the desert. . . he threw on top of him (Azazel) rugged and sharp rocks. And he covered his face in order that he may not see light; and in order that he may be sent into the fire on the great day of judgment.” (1 Enoch 10:1-7; trans. by E. Isaac in James H. Charlesworth, ed. The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha [2 vols. New York: Doubleday, 1983-85], p. 17)

The imprisonment and end-time fate of this fallen angel here resembles the fate of “the ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan” in John’s Apocalypse (20:1-10), as we shall soon see. As in other apocalyptic writings, the flood of long ago becomes a precursor or foreshadow of God’s final intervention in the end times, the “great day of judgment”, when the angels who rebelled, along with the humans who sided with them by doing evil, will meet their end. The righteous ones, on the other hand, will go on to live in a new world cleansed “from all sin and from all iniquity” (see 10:17-22).

The name “Satan” itself does not appear here at all, but the fallen angels story was soon to be linked up with passages involving the angelic adversary (”satan”) in the Hebrew Bible, as we begin to see in the likes of Jubilees (chapters 10-11; c. 150-105 BCE). Still later (in the second and third centuries CE), this notion of fallen angels would also be linked up (by Christian authors) with a passage that originally referred to the Babylonian king as cosmic rebel in Isaiah 14, the “Day Star, Son of Dawn” who falls from heaven (where he imagines himself to belong). Part of the phrase just mentioned was translated into Latin by Jerome (in 410 CE) as “Lucifer”. Looking far ahead to the 1600s, it would be hard to imagine Milton’s Paradise Lost without the story of Satan or Lucifer as the chief rebel angel who fell from heaven’s height.

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#411319 - 02/05/10 06:30 PM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: NapalmNick]
Machismo Offline
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Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: NapalmNick
But a lot of the text in using extremely archaic terms that make Shakespeare a walk in the park. If you're assigned to read it you'll hate it; if you're reading it by choice it's a good challenge. wink


Paradise Lost would make a great graphic novel. I checked Amazon and no such animal. Too bad. I would have bought it.
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#411338 - 02/05/10 07:38 PM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: reprobate]
Discipline Offline
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Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
I would assume Voltaire would have argued otherwise on the importance of Milton. Voltaire in Candide criticizes Milton's work, perhaps in a form of satire, but it is interesting nonetheless considering Voltaire's attack on the idea of happiness.

But I am rambling.
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#411354 - 02/05/10 10:23 PM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: Discipline]
reprobate Offline

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Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
What would Monsieur François-Marie Arouet know about ENGLISH literature? wink
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#411382 - 02/06/10 04:16 AM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: I'mPerfecting]
LordofDarkness Offline
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Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 757
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
Originally Posted By: I'mPerfecting
How is it "every one" seems to know about Lucifer's battle in heaven and the fall from grace? When it isn't in the bible ...


Look up Revelation 12:7 - 9, and Isaiah 14:12-16.

As for the book of Enoch, look up 29:4 and 31:4

After I get back on the computer, I'll research a little further and explain everything else you asked.

Originally Posted By: NapalmNick
But that's all it is. A word, not a name. Christianity simply personified it. The serpent was not referred to as "Satan". It was referred to as "serpent". If there are any Jews who believe in a singular, literal Satan, it is no doubt the cultural rubbings-off from Christianity.


I agree.


Edited by LordOfDarkness (02/06/10 04:30 AM)
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"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

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#411415 - 02/06/10 11:11 AM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: reprobate]
Discipline Offline
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Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Never listen to a rich noble French man. They always have something to complain about. confused
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"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#411420 - 02/06/10 12:01 PM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: I'mPerfecting]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
Your post reminds me of one of my early ones here at LttD. Maybe you can find some useful information in THIS thread?
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�Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.�
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

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#411423 - 02/06/10 01:01 PM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: I'mPerfecting]
DCLXVI Offline

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These are my thought on the subject.

Xtianity, as well as other Abrahamic religions, (in their little peanut brains) don't require an idea to be in their "holy book" for them to say it's there. How often have we heard one of them say, "It's in the bible." when whatever they are saying isn't there at all?

Or an idea may only have the minutest mention in the damned thing. IE: the witch-hunts on two continents. In reading their book years ago, I found but one verse to "justify" their murdering the people accused of the "crime" of Witchcraft. That being, "Suffer ye not a witch to live." Exodus 22:18.

Back on the original subject. I did find a vaguely xtian text that has (in its terminology) a paper on the "Lucifer Rebellion."

From Wikipedia:
"The Urantia Book (sometimes called the Urantia Papers or The Fifth Epochal Revelation) is a spiritual and philosophical book that discusses God, Jesus, science, cosmology, religion, history and destiny. It originated in Chicago, Illinois, USA, sometime between 1924 and 1955. There has been much debate and speculation on how the papers were produced and who the authors were.

The writers introduce the word Urantia as the name of the planet Earth and state their intent is to "present enlarged concepts and advanced truth" in an "endeavor to expand cosmic consciousness and enhance spiritual perception." Among many other topics, it expounds on the origin and meaning of life, describes humankind's place in the universe, discusses the relationship between God and people, and presents a detailed biography of Jesus."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book

But, I'm sure others here have at least heard of this.
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#411427 - 02/06/10 01:43 PM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: I'mPerfecting]
Zaftig Offline
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Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
So, if there was an ancient text that described in perfect detail the mythology of Satan, what would that change for you, exactly?

It's important to note the difficulty of searching for textual evidence of a certain mythology from a distant, non-literal society. It's even foolish to try and do so, as if finding the text that clearly states a popular story has any relevance at all in terms of legitimacy. Scholars (theological and secular alike) examine scriptural evidence for lack of other kinds.

Christians know the story because it was passed down orally. It is only recently (relatively) that texts are used to legitimize ideas. But make no mistake, by and large, any textual reference is usually done retroactively to apply to a pre-existing circulating story.

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#411465 - 02/06/10 07:52 PM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: I'mPerfecting]
LordofDarkness Offline
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Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 757
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
Ok... Now that I have the computer for the moment, I shall begin;

Originally Posted By: I'mPerfecting
Dear Satan, perhaps you can help, my question is:

How is it "every one" seems to know about Lucifer's battle in heaven and the fall from grace? When it isn't in the bible and I can't even find a decent copy of the books of Enoch in which it's written.


I've already answered this so... Let's move on.

Originally Posted By: I'mPerfecting
I have many books on the subject of apocryphal texts and several copies of the book of Enoch. 13 to be exact each one is different. None of them illustrate the story in quite the same way as it's past down among x-tian sects.


I didn't know about how many texts there are about the Book of Enoch but to me, it looks like there are interpretations or different versions.

Originally Posted By: I'mPerfecting
How is it they even know the story?
The devil is only mentioned 4 times in the bible once with Job, once in the desert with Jesus, once in revelation I think, and then in part about the "Morning Star" that is in reference to a quote made by the King of Babylon.
Lucifer Morning Star isn't even a part of the story.
How do they know that name or have a myth for him?
A myth that can't even be researched to give it plausible understanding of where it came from.


Lucifer was one name for the "adversary". His real name is supposed to be Samael. Lucifer or Samael didn't become "Satan" until after his rebellion. Satan is not another person but a new label for the archangel after his rebellion against "God".

So here is my interpretation; According to the holy bible, Lucifer, Belial, Satan, Leviathan, Beelzebub, etc. are representing the same person but by different authors and different stories. Since there are about 20 or so authors, 50 or so books, 50 or so chapters in each book, so on and so forth, so many stories in the bible are completely different but woven together to make one big prophecy book. Alot of scriptures in the New testament often refer to what is in the Old Testament. This evidence concludes that authors in the New Testament have studied exstensively on the Old and proceeded the "lessons" that were intended.

Originally Posted By: I'mPerfecting
I know already the morning star derivative is base on Venus and some how went through the same process as Christmas to control a pagan ideal but it's not clear or straight forward. Also unclear is how Lux Ferre/Ferra in latin = light to bear became light bringer = lux lucis addo in latin.


I'm not big on Latin but the christmas story was based off of pagan beliefs. Most of the bible's beliefs on those kinds of stories are originated from paganism. From what I have gathered, paganism at the time was the original and common religion and nobody knew anything else but that one religion. Paganism was based off of Sumerian beliefs I think. Next came christianity which claimed; "These temples of yours are evil and so you must destroy them and create our temples." or something along those lines. So the pagans were forced to tear down their temples and rebuild them. Although the christians didn't know what were the images on the temples represented, the christian temples were thusly pagan based. They practically worshipped their god in a pagan temple.

When the christians confronted the pagans, they forced them to either convert to christianity or die. That is why you heard of christians burning witches. Eventually, it wasn't just pagans who were burned but just about anybody who could be considered a witch by the majority of the populace.

Originally Posted By: I'mPerfecting
I researched that part of it along time ago and attempted to track down the books of Enoch. To my dismay "New Age" reproductions have made it nearly imposable it get just a plan and simple version. You know dead sea scroll, next page translation. Hell, I even settle for just the direct dead sea scroll version and translate it my self.


Unfortunately I think that can be impossible because of new versions and different translations. The actual Dead Sea Scrolls are protected in a museum.

Originally Posted By: I'mPerfecting
I have yet to meet someone like Ayn Rand with no knowledge of religion even here among Satan. I find I'm even less likely to find someone who doesn't know the story of Lucifer despite the fact it isn't in the bible and they never read the books of Enoch.


My references to you should differ your claim of it not being in the bible. Like I said above, all the other names including Lucifer are directed to one rebellious archangel. Even though you're reading about a "dragon" and a war in heaven, you're reading about a metaphor about the archangel which is mentioned as Lucifer from a previous book in the bible. It's just a different story.

Originally Posted By: I'mPerfecting
My curiosity may seem childish but I'm tired of the answer god works in mysterious way. I have also check the internet to no avail. Probably dew to my lack of patience with it.


It's not childish. That is why I answered the best way I could off of what I studied. I was curious like yourself and studied it.

Originally Posted By: I'mPerfecting
I'm looking for a book, a history of how Lucifer's story became common knowledge, or a web page that can illustrate how this happened.


I'll see if I can help you look for it if you need it. I wouldn't mind knowing myself.
_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

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#412736 - 02/16/10 11:32 AM Re: Satan replies. [Re: Nemo]
I'mPerfecting Offline


Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 221
Loc: Florida
Point taken Nemo.
I love the humor in your writing.
I know Ayn Rand doesn't care, but I don't know her like you do Satan, or anyone like her who's never been exposed to x-tian religions.
I wish I did. Perhaps I should make more friends in Atheist China.
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"...And the truth that makes us laugh, will make you cry!"
"...Porcelain in a paper cup world."
~Almost Alice~

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#412739 - 02/16/10 11:44 AM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: Zaftig]
I'mPerfecting Offline


Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 221
Loc: Florida
I expected that much of it is oral folk stories being passed down. From my analytical view of it I find that observation fascinating. However it's does not qualify as an oral story for this project as their are to many written references for the myth.

I'm not looking for a clear detailed word for word reference, just gathering as many sources as possible to build a clear historical picture. I expect Milton is the key not Enoch to the story that's been orally passed down.

It's not a fools errand if it serves my purpose.
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"...And the truth that makes us laugh, will make you cry!"
"...Porcelain in a paper cup world."
~Almost Alice~

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#412741 - 02/16/10 11:54 AM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: DCLXVI]
I'mPerfecting Offline


Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 221
Loc: Florida
I appreciate the new reference. It's hard work sifting through the internet.

Thank you, DCLXVI. Even if I walk away with one new source it wasn't a waste to ask such a repeated question, or as some see it a foolish one.

I appreciate the considered response and hopefully I will find use in the sources you've cited.

HS.
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"...And the truth that makes us laugh, will make you cry!"
"...Porcelain in a paper cup world."
~Almost Alice~

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#412753 - 02/16/10 12:36 PM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: Lust]
I'mPerfecting Offline


Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 221
Loc: Florida
Thank you Tier.
I knew I wasn't the first to ask this question.

I was able to pull some good material references from Witch_Scarlet and Bill_M in that post.

Thank you it was very helpful.
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#412756 - 02/16/10 01:04 PM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: Zaftig]
I'mPerfecting Offline


Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 221
Loc: Florida
Awesome, Zafttig, Thank you.
That's what I was looking for. I just wasn't able to find it.

I have 2 Apocrypha's and a book called Other Books of the Bible. The books of Enoch are in all 3, The part you've quoted is not in my copies. I knew I was missing something but having never seen it, it's hard to know what it should look like.

Most of my research is done through books not the internet. If I could have found it myself I wouldn't have asked. There's also the reliability of the internet. Satanist have a reputation for being adept researchers, so I'm inclined to be more apt to trust the references you pass on till proven otherwise.

Again Thank you very much, Zafttig this will be very helpful.
_________________________
"...And the truth that makes us laugh, will make you cry!"
"...Porcelain in a paper cup world."
~Almost Alice~

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#412764 - 02/16/10 02:20 PM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: reprobate]
I'mPerfecting Offline


Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 221
Loc: Florida
I thought I mentioned Milton. I did not.

I have been looking at the influence of Milton on the overall belief. Also I'm using Blake and Dante as well.

I have been hung up on Enoch because I couldn't find an accurate copy, Zaftig has since provide me with one.

It could be much simpler.
What ever it is that causes people to cling to quotes from books they never read, like an infectious meme (I think meme is the right term to explain this passage of thought from one person to another becoming in grained in the psyche.) would be the same thing that caused the spread of this story in the form that we know it.

I recall a study I read while looking up Alice in Wonderland. It said "Alice in wonderland is one of most quoted books in the world. With the bible being the first."
It has been my experience that the person reciting the quote often has little knowledge of where it came from.
Which leads me to wonder what causes that affect on people?
What persuades them to such attraction of the words?

I'm just thinking out loud sorry, but if I had those answers I could write the next Scientology.

Thank you reprobate, I will be using the angle Milton poses for me.
_________________________
"...And the truth that makes us laugh, will make you cry!"
"...Porcelain in a paper cup world."
~Almost Alice~

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#412766 - 02/16/10 02:24 PM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: ArtAche86]
I'mPerfecting Offline


Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 221
Loc: Florida
Crosstitutes huh?
Very funny grin
_________________________
"...And the truth that makes us laugh, will make you cry!"
"...Porcelain in a paper cup world."
~Almost Alice~

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#412794 - 02/16/10 07:34 PM Re: A Biblical Quandary [Re: LordofDarkness]
I'mPerfecting Offline


Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 221
Loc: Florida
Thank you for taking the time to respond. I do appreciate it. This might sound rude and I don't mean it to be, but please don't hurt yourself trying to help me.
I have a lot of info on this subject already.
Your 1st post
Originally Posted By: LordOfDarkness

Look up Revelation 12:7 - 9, and Isaiah 14:12-16.
As for the book of Enoch, look up 29:4 and 31:4

Was more helpful and accurate. However I responded to it in private, and the part about Enoch 29:4 and 31:4. What book did you use?
I'm confused where did you get the #'s from (29:4)? I've never seen a copy written like the bible. Except one I have a book called YHWH the book of knowledge key's of Enoch, it's written in a format like the bible but reads like Scientology.
It's all about angels but I just started reading it and it's not an easy read.
However your #'s don't match and I'd find them more useful if I knew where the came from.
Originally Posted By: LordOfDarkness
Unfortunately I think that can be impossible because of new versions and different translations. The actual Dead Sea Scrolls are protected in a museum.

Their all translated interpretations, like the bible, from the dead sea scrolls.
Looks like I'm going to the museum.
Originally Posted By: LordOfDarkness
Lucifer was one name for the "adversary".

I see you missed something so I'll help you.
No! It's not. Lucifer = Luxfer = luxferre = light to bear, not "adversary".
Originally Posted By: LordOfDarkness
His real name is supposed to be Samael

How do you know that? If it wasn't the perfect example of my question I wouldn't have humored these statements with a response. It's obvious you come from a very x-tian background. Which one is it? And Where do you get that kind of information from? If you don't know, I understand, I don't expect you to be able to answer me. What I was looking for is source references.
Originally Posted By: LordOfDarkness
Lucifer or Samael didn't become "Satan" until after his rebellion. Satan is not another person but a new label for the archangel after his rebellion against "God".

So Satan's now an archangel? Revelation 12:7 - 9 I thought he was a dragon.
Actually Satan is the Hebrew word for advisory.
satan = advisory.
Please cite your reference for this info how about an author or a web page. I'm lost. If your using the bible we covered it's not in there unless you have one I don't.
Or, Maybe it's part of the Borg hive-mind I will never understand because I'm an outsider. I'd except that answer too.
Originally Posted By: LordOfDarkness
So here is my interpretation; According to the holy bible, Lucifer, Belial, Satan, Leviathan, Beelzebub, etc. are representing the same person but by different authors

Ok, it's safe to say different authors allow for different interpretation.
Yes, according to x-tians belief any imaginary deity except their own is Satan. This has been covered, is well known, and doesn't answer my question.
It's clear this is their belief. What isn't clear is how they know these names, Or How they got to the point of blaming everything on Lucifer. Where does that notion come from?
Also Leviathan is in a bible I have, as one of the creators of earth not as Satan. This bible is also now on the Apocryphal list. As for Belial and Beelzebub I don't recall where in the book they are but believe their mentioned in one story apiece. They are more commonly known for their appearances in Paradise Lost, the grimoire of Solomon and Diablo.

I can't say it helps me to lump them together. It's an x-tian way of thinking. It illiterates for me just how complicated the question is.
It almost makes more since to lump them together, as their all fictional caricature. Any incite into their origins would lead me to the same conclusion. How ever I won't because doing so would be inaccurate. Their stories are different even if the imagination that they stem from is similar.
Originally Posted By: LordOfDarkness
I'm not big on Latin but the christmas story was based off of pagan beliefs. Most of the bible's beliefs on those kinds of stories are originated from paganism.

I noticed or you wouldn't of tried to say Lucifer and Satan mean the same thing.
Yes they are based on pagan beliefs which is the point I was making, to people who knew that already, when I said..
Originally Posted By: I'mperfecting
I know already the morning star derivative is base on Venus and some how went through the same process as Christmas to control a pagan ideal.

Originally Posted By: LordOfDarkness
Paganism was based off of Sumerian beliefs I think.

Yes, it was. Sumerian culture was the 1st to have a written language.
Originally Posted By: I'mPerfecting
... the story of Lucifer despite the fact it isn't in the bible.

Originally Posted By: LordOfDarkness
My references to you should differ your claim of it not being in the bible.

No, it doesn't because I mentioned them and cited why their not viable points.
I also pointed out already, most copies of the bible that just say..(a correction to my statement) Day Star in reference to Venus quoted by the king of Babylon not Lucifer.
My original question is how do x-tians even know this name there is no actual written source for it in the bible? How do you go from Paradise Lost to assuming it's in the bible? Perhaps Milton is one of the lost books of the bible or an apocryphal one. If they at least gave him credit I'd be ok with it, but to pass off someone elses work with out reference just add to the pretentiousness of it.
The part about that old dragon in revelations doesn't always say Satan, though I have more than one copy that does. I also have one that doesn't.
Originally Posted By: LordOfDarkness
Like I said above, all the other names including Lucifer are directed to one rebellious archangel. Even though you're reading about a "dragon" and a war in heaven, you're reading about a metaphor about the archangel which is mentioned as Lucifer from a previous book in the bible. It's just a different story.

The word Lucifer isn't in the bible at all, unless you look on-line. Your reaching to say the two stories are connected or that the caricatures in them are the same.
The Isaiah story is in reference to the king of Babylon. Written years before the story in revelations. Isaiah would have never known about it since the dead sea scrolls were one of the only forms of writing at the time for sharing info, except for word of mouth.

To make a point What's an Archangel and how do you know that? because Michael slayed a dragon in a section of revelations? Now correct me if I'm wrong but isn't revelations written in such a way to say it hasn't happened yet? How then can it be assumed that war has already taken place?

"..metaphor about the archangel which is mentioned as Lucifer from a previous book.. " That just not true! Much of the x-tian biblical misconception is illustrated in this statement.
To assume that, what they meant to say is.. "Lucifer is an Archangel who is now Satan because he got cast out of heaven." is ludicrous but makes my point. You stated it in the same fashion as any x-tian. So tell me why you draw those conclusion despite the lack of obvious evidence.

Just admit it's Milton or do you have a book of Enoch I can reference. It's funny I was trying to avoid it but my conclusion plays to the fact Milton has had more influence then Enoch on this story.
Originally Posted By: LordOfDarkness
It's not childish. That is why I answered the best way I could off of what I studied. I was curious like yourself and studied it.

That's sweet thank you.
My advice don't get taken in at face value. You didn't dig very deep before drawing a conclusion.


Sorry it's so long.
_________________________
"...And the truth that makes us laugh, will make you cry!"
"...Porcelain in a paper cup world."
~Almost Alice~

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