Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3
Topic Options
#412076 - 02/11/10 09:19 AM Re: A primer of fake Elizabethan [Re: reprobate]
Maupassant's Offline


Registered: 01/08/10
Posts: 35
Originally Posted By: reprobate
The Middle English system was richer. Instead of a near/far contrast, it had a three-way contrast: near me, not near me but within sight, and not near me and not in sight.


As far as I know ancient Greek also had a curious three-way system: near the narrator, far from the narrator, and far from the narrator but near the person the narrator is talking to.

And yes, Finland and Hungary languages come from the same family, just as the name implies: "Finno-Ugric languages".

Top
#412113 - 02/11/10 03:52 PM Re: A primer of fake Elizabethan [Re: reprobate]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2151
Quote:
The Middle English system was richer. Instead of a near/far contrast, it had a three-way contrast: near me, not near me but within sight, and not near me and not in sight. The words were THIS, YON, and THAT. The corresponding words for places were HERE, YONDER, and THERE.

Awesome! Now I can destroy all my family's dreams! crossbones grin

Allow me to explain my outburst: My mother is an English teacher, on of the types who maintains that "ain't is not a word" (even though it fucking is!) and will often make fun of "redneck talk" by using words like "ain't" and "YONDER".

Truth be told, rednecks do use "Yonder" a lot. According to the above quoted statement, they actually use it properly for the most part.

I once read the word used in a full sentence in The Lord of the Rings. After that I immediately assumed that since it was used by someone other than a redneck it must have a real meaning. And it does!

Muahahahaha!!!
_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

Top
#412115 - 02/11/10 03:58 PM Re: A primer of fake Elizabethan [Re: NapalmNick]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8802
That is actually interesting Nick, and connects two disconnected dots.

I knew in the back of my head that American rednecks still used "yonder", and in another part of my head knew that "yonder" was valid archaic English.

Now I wonder if "yonder" has somehow survived in unbroken usage from ancient times... amongst the snaggle toothed inbred set!
_________________________
“When beggars die, there are no comets seen;
The heavens themselves blaze forth the death of princes.”
William Shakespeare (Julius Caesar)

Top
#412117 - 02/11/10 04:14 PM Re: A primer of fake Elizabethan [Re: Quaark]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2151
Well, the genetic makeup of most European Americans in the Appalachian and "Bible Belt" regions is invariably a dense mix of English, Irish, Scottish, and French. Seeing as how all of those nations are somewhat famous for the "royal" touch, I wouldn't be surprised if that was a genuine connection between the two uses.

Because I'm strange and find an accent attractive that most people want to throw knives at, I've also found out that "Southern American English" (SAE for short) owes the vast majority of its vowel shapes to English and Irish dialects, and most of its syntax to Scottish dialects. Granted, in places like Louisiana it is obvious that French has had a major effect there, but that's EXTREMELY regional.
_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

Top
#412121 - 02/11/10 04:20 PM Re: A primer of fake Elizabethan [Re: Quaark]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Now I wonder if "yonder" has somehow survived in unbroken usage from ancient times... amongst the snaggle toothed inbred set!

It certainly has.

The same with adding "a-" to the beginning of a present participle, to signify that the action is in progress over time. If someone's "gone afishin'" or says, "I'm acomin', pa", they're using one of the most ancient grammatical constructions. It's related to the German prefix "ge-", which they attach to perfect participles to signify an action that is completed.

Look at these lines from Chaucer:

Quote:
"Now," quod he tho, "cast up thyn ye;
See yonder, lo, the Galaxye,
Which men clepeth the Milky Wey,
For hit is whyt: and somme, parfey,
Callen hit Watlinge Strete:
That ones was y-brent with hete...."

Erm, I mean:
Quote:
"Now", quoth he though, "cast up thine eye;
See yonder, lo, the Galaxy,
Which men call the Milky Way,
For it is white: and some, perfaith,
Call it Watling Street:
That once was a-burnt with heat...."


Nick, next time your mom gives you a hard time about "redneck" talk, tell her to read The House of Fame!

Also, replacing "th" with "d" is attested in Middle English as well as many dialects throughout the history of modern English.

This is not to mention replacing "-ing" with "-in". This is a case of overzealous ignorance becoming standard. Originally, "-ing" was used for gerunds, "-and" for participles. (Imagine a sign that said, "Gone fishand"!) But over time, BOTH started to be pronounced "-in" (the g and the d were both dropped). Now, people got used to having to correct themselves, and knew that "-in" was "supposed" to be "-ing" in some cases, but were confused about which cases, since they pronounced both the same anyway. So they just overextended it to the cases that used to be "-and", thinking that was the "correct" way. The older form "-in" and even "-and" is used in some dialects of broad Scots.


Edited by reprobate (02/11/10 04:21 PM)
_________________________
reprobate

Top
#412123 - 02/11/10 04:23 PM Re: A primer of fake Elizabethan [Re: reprobate]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2151
Warlock Reprobate, Methinks thine ammo will do me well. grin
_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

Top
#412176 - 02/11/10 10:30 PM Re: A primer of fake Elizabethan [Re: Quaark]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Originally Posted By: Daark

Now I wonder if "yonder" has somehow survived in unbroken usage from ancient times... amongst the snaggle toothed inbred set!


I live around a countless multitude of posterchildren for bad dentistry and incest,and let me say they do still use it,and by mere coincidence only, use it properly in most contexts.

However,they also say "Warsher" (washing-machine) "Winder" (window) "Mater" (tomato) and many other words that would make a Confederate flag burn itself.
_________________________
You stay classy,Satans!

Top
#412178 - 02/11/10 10:49 PM Re: A primer of fake Elizabethan [Re: ArtAche86]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2151
Quote:
However,they also say "Warsher" (washing-machine) "Winder" (window) "Mater" (tomato) and many other words that would make a Confederate flag burn itself.

Well, I wouldn't say those are different words so much as different pronunciations.

I say "washer" to refer to both a washing machine and a dish-washer. Because in my book, a dish-washer is another human being. grin

I guess the addition of "er" is a Kentucky thing. Mainly because I say "Winda" and "Tamata". If I say them very SLOOOW I make the "o" sound, but that's only if I'm speaking to someone who pronounces McDonald's as "Madonna's". grin
_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

Top
#412186 - 02/11/10 11:24 PM Re: A primer of fake Elizabethan [Re: ArtAche86]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Chaucer would have thought Shakespeare sounded like an illiterate with his tongue curled up like a rug. William Blake, with his Estuary rhymes, might as well have been speaking ebonics for all John Donne would have been able to make of it.

Many accents with a bad reputation have their earthy charms, from braid Doric to Southern drawl, from Newfie to kiwi, to, yes, even ebonics. wink

Everyone has an accent. What matters is what they have to say in it.


Edited by reprobate (02/11/10 11:32 PM)
_________________________
reprobate

Top
#412346 - 02/13/10 06:56 AM Re: Amn't I? [Re: reprobate]
Machismo Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: reprobate
Two exceptions. If the verb is "to be", you say "thou art". (You never say "I art" or "he art" or "they art". ONLY "thou art".) If the verb is "to have", you say "thou hast". (You never say "I hast" or "he hast".)


Was there ever a time when English-speaking people said, without sounding stupid, amn't I? Or was the accepted form pretty much always, aren't I?
_________________________


Top
#412359 - 02/13/10 08:34 AM Re: Amn't I? [Re: Machismo]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Was there ever a time when English-speaking people said, without sounding stupid, amn't I? Or was the accepted form pretty much always, aren't I?


Good question.

"am" + "not" = "ain't". That's where it comes from.

In Ireland, they do say "amn't".


Edited by reprobate (02/13/10 08:42 AM)
_________________________
reprobate

Top
#412362 - 02/13/10 09:01 AM Re: Amn't I? [Re: reprobate]
MagdaGraham Offline
CoS Priestess

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 13369
Loc: Scotland
"am I not?"
_________________________
We are the makers of manners. (Shakespeare)

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3

Top
Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3


Forum Stats
12098 Members
73 Forums
43863 Topics
405469 Posts

Max Online: 197 @ 10/04/11 06:49 AM
Advertisements