To me a man/woman is entitled to his/her own body, I have nothing aginst prostitutes or people who hires prostitutes, I do have qualms about "pimps", if a proper brothel needs "protection" it's called "security guards" hired for a nominal fee. I am all for legal prostitution, that way, pimps gets out of business and the prostitutes are protected like any other worker.

Prostitution is the oldest profession there is, moralists and naggers around the world have tried in vain, in thousands of years, with pitchforks and torches, with teargas and sub-machineguns, with laws and lobbyists to put the chastity belts on men and women worldwide without asking the people in question what THEY would like to do.

Political Correct whiners cry about "slavery", there is slavery involved yes, when it comes it illegal prostitution, but once it is legal, what can I say, domestic products are better.

Religious "know-it-alls" cry about "morals", don't like the mess, stay out of the kitchen I say. Go kneel to your ghosts for help, I will hire some pleasure thank you.

The list goes on and on with eggheads and airheads who can't mind their own life and insist on telling others how to live.

That is my opinion about prostitution, i'm open for discussion, please, share your thoughts.

I have no moral reasons to be against prostitution. In fact, I think it's a natural by-product of our biology and our society.

However, where I live most things that are dubbed "prostitution" are illegal. I'm not entirely sure what exactly would count as so, but like the old saying goes, "Everyone, and I mean everyone, pays for sex."

Best bet: don't pick up strange chics in your car, it's just gross, and definitely illegal!

Interesting side fact humans are not the animals who engage in prostitution.

Studies have shown chimpanzees also have prostitution but for food not coins

All for the system in Amsterdam and Berlin, picking up girls from the corner is illegal prostitution, most of the time those girls are on heavy drugs and/or abused by clients or pimps.

In legal prostituiton, the prostitute gets slapped, the slapper gets to meet with a giant who slaps him so hard he needs to got to the hospital. Thats justice.

wouldn't be more justified to send the slapper to court with an assault charge?

We are all whores in slavery.

The government is our pimp. Pay up, or get slapped down.

From the 1988 TV movie Jack the Ripper:

Superintendant Arnold (Edward Judd) to Inspector Fred Aberlaine (Michael Caine) :

"We can't win, Fred. We were never meant to. We're all pawns: me, you, ten-shilling whores. And all around us kings and queens."

If anyone disagrees with me - stop working. Stop paying your taxes and see what happens.

Currently my country seems to have a 'don't ask don't tell' kind of policy in that prostitutes are allowed to operate without being prosecuted, as long as they pay taxes

There is much talk about passing laws that would make the purchase (not the selling) of their services illegal. The argument most often used is that it would help stop "trafficking", which seems to be very much akin to white slavery.

I think they're attacking it the wrong way around. Making new laws about human 'sins' almost always results in the business continuing underground. Prohibition didn't do away with drinking, neither will making it illegal for men to go to a prostitute.

For me it's a question of resources, if a woman is a consenting adult, let her perform business with other consenting adults, and let the police work on the percentage of the business where violence, drugs and other forms of persuasion is involved.

Also, it seems that the number of sexually related crimes are lower in places where prostitution is not forbidden - I believe some of the first statistics are starting to show up here in Scandinavia where you can more or less factor out cultural differences between the countries.

A prostitute is a disease vector for the undiscriminating. I won't be going near one, though, so let them infect and get infected like mad for all I care. Even if it was legal I would keep my distance. Mix in the legal hassles and it's stupidity squared. Perfect for bible thumpers!

As for the cruelty of pimps - Don't care.

Yeah, criminalizing a consentual action between 2 adults like that is ridiculous...it's just wrong to outlaw it, people have zero right to go messing in others' private business like that.

For one thing, making it illegal doesn't stop it; it just makes prostitituon more dangerous: now we can't discriminate between willing escorts that are in legitimate business, and the abusive pimps and slave-holders that traffick in and enslave women (and often children, even younger than teenagers) from impoverished areas.

If prostituion was legal, then police could distinguish between open exchange of sex for money and the girls who are abused by pimps and traffikers...as it is right now, the girl gets slapped by her pimp or a client, and she can't do sh*it because the cops will just be "zomg ur a hooker ima arrest u n say im cool lol!"
It's ridiculous.

Bottom line, let's distinguish between willing prostituion, and abusive oppresive slavery. People can do what they want without hurting others, and then we can focus on reducing the ACTUALLY harmful and unjust practicies of the slave-trade and sex-slavery.

(I mean it should still be perhaps segregated to only certain areas of a city, and/or people's private residences. Still can't f*ck in the middle of the road)

(by the way I also just realized that this topic may be a TAD political for not being downstairs...? :/)

Butters has something to say about paying for kisses.

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/251903/

AHAHA south park is the best! "do you know what I am saying?"
Ah Butters, you never disappoint me.

Stratification applies to this area too.

The crack whore turning tricks on the street can hardly be compared to the high class escort or the dominatrix (or any other kind who caters to specialised preferences).

The first group will never go anywhere, the second may actually be financially successful, meet businessmen and politicians and so on. We hear about it when they make important men fall from grace, so to speak, but we may never know what influence they had on the men who never got caught with them

I also would be for legalization of prostitution, if the protection of both prostitutes and customers would be guaranteed very well, in laws.

It could solve also some other social issues, I think...

But it would require also people to sense that as a job, quite seriously besides the fun it brings, and not to see it as a reason for intolerance; it would require a change in people's mentality.
For example in Slovakia, prostitution is sensed very negatively.

If prostitution becomes legal, there will be even a bigger and badder pimp to keep all the ho's in check.

His name is Uncle Sammy. Don't let him get out da car and choke a bitch!

That episode is grand! I *love* the ending of it!

I like that.

My mother named me after a fictional character that might possibly be considered a prostitute. Orphaned country wench type sleeps herself into the good graces of high society and thereby becomes a very powerful force to be reckoned with.

When I was old enough to read the rather bawdy book (condemned by the Catholic church for "indecency") my mom told me about this. She seemed almost embarrassed or worried that I might be offended. On the contrary, I was jazzed. Little bit o' hellfire in it, you know?

While having never been one nor having known any working girls personally, I have no idea what the realities of the profession are. However, a woman willingly offering sex for money (or trade of any kind) seems like solid mojo. Taking advantage of someone else's needs in return for personal gain? Sounds downright witchy.

I actually associate with a few pro dommes and escorts (both bio and trans women) and I have to say it does seem like quite a lucrative job. Most of them, however, are also successful in other areas of work, such as beauty, modeling, and writing. They are so not disease ridden, quite the contrary actually. They take very good care of themselves. I've thought about pro domming myself, but my career path is such that it would most definitely bite me in the ass later on.

Second oldest, agriculture is the first.

I don't see why there shouldn't be some sort of prostitution among hunter/gatherers.

What?

You say that agriculture is the oldest profession, but before humans had agriculture they were hunters and gatherers. I don't see any reason why prostitution couldn't exist at that point in time, before agriculture.

Gatherers?

In history of civilization, Western and Eastern, agriculture is recognised to be the first profession exserted.

Prior to being civilised, I do not think women had enough freedom or power among men, to charge for sex.

In most places, prostitution is illegal. The Church of Satan does not condone illegal activity, period.

As for legal prostitution, I'm all for it. Most of the problems associated with prostitution (drugs, physical abuse, no health regulations, etc.) are specifically due to it being outside of the law. And I speak as a satisfied customer of some legal brothels in Nevada.

The reason why feminists hate prostitution is not so much because they think it's "abusive to women". Feminists want men to be emotional slaves, and don't like seeing men having a simple and practical solution to a common problem (men wanting to get some action and willing to pay for it, and women willing to take money for the act).

Nevertheless there is a long tradition of referring to prostitution as "the oldest profession in the world"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_prostitution

I doubt that many people will say "Oh, you mean agriculture" when hearing the expression.

I have always held the unpopular opinion that stripping is empowering to women. They have the power to tease men until their balls turn blue, but they'll never let them touch (unless of course you pay extra, but that's only in some clubs). The men sit on the sidelines drooling and panting like pathetic dogs while the stripper gets the satisfaction of reducing those men to such a level. At the end of the night she goes home with a fist-full of money while the men go home broke. Now tell me, who's really being degraded here?

I'm not so sure that being a common street whore is empowering, but being a dominatrix certainly is. At brothels I imagine the women set the rules too, and have bodyguards to take care of anyone who breaks them.

There's nothing wrong with using ones natural sexual talents to make money. Denying a woman to do that would be truly degrading.

That's right. Many people are misinformed.

I remember going to a strip club once where they had a lottery of men's names from the audience. They'd pick winner every hour. This "winner" would then get on stage while two women pulled his pants down, covered him in whipped cream, made him get down on all fours, then crawl to the end of the stage while one of them sat on top for the taxi ride. My thought was "And this is supposed to be degrading to WOMEN?"

I went to a stripper joint once and I hated it. The room was smokey and the girls were "crack whores" who were average. Trust me seeing a stripper in a well lighted room would make you gag. Very few are good looking. So while it may seem "empowering" to the woman on the stage on a much deeper level I can't but help think they need the stage to make themselves "feel good" like a drug. Just my opinion based upon a one and only time experience.

A perfect case in point!



There's probably some truth in that. I myself have never been to a strip club, so i can't speak from any experience. I'm much more content staying at home and looking at free porn. I love the internet.

That's a common misconception. Women actually had a far higher, more equal standing to men prior to the advent of agriculture. Women were bringing home at least 90% of the food, after all. After agriculture, women's work was considered far less important, and thus women were devalued and lost power.

As to the original topic, I believe that a consenting adult should be able to have sex with another consenting adult for any reason those adults want, even if for an exchange of money. I don't support doing it when it's illegal, but I do support making it legal.

~Stalker

I've never been to a strip joint, but oddly enough I have known three girls who've had the job.

All three had vomit-inducing faces. Crack whore describes it well enough.

Personally, even if I had a 100% guarantee that all the girls were hot, I probably still wouldn't go. I don't like being teased by strangers.

My stepbrother used to always tell me he could take any stripper home he wanted to. I always laughed and told him to go right ahead, you won't catch me touching them with a 10 foot dildo.

Where exactly was it, over 10.000 years ago, that women supported the family, not the men? What was "women's work" over 10.000 years ago?

Should be interesting to hear your history facts as they really differ from those that I get.

For me, strip clubs and pornography serve two entirely different purposes. Strip clubs have always been more about entertainment, especially within a group setting. They're fun when you're there to celebrate a friend's birthday or bachelor party. Plus, I like the idea of tossing a dollar on to a stage to get a close flash of some woman's tits. It's fun. Though as with any night time event, it loses its fun after a while. I'd have no interest in going daily.

Porn, of course, is for private fantasies. It's for getting off. Though I'm not a huge fan of free porn; I prefer paying extra to get things in good quality, specific to my tastes, and free of any viruses, pop-ups or adware.

Anthropologists have shown through scholarly investigation that there is great variation amongst gender roles within hunter-gatherer societies, both presently and historically. Which isn't exciting or surprising in itself, given that different geographical locations tend to breed different cultural biases; the techniques to discover such knowledge is what I find exciting.

Trying to pinpoint exactly how women were treated, or what their roles were in hunter-gatherer societies in general, would be futile without grossly simplifying the issue.

But there is no doubt that at least in some hunter-gatherer societies, women were valued members of the group and treated as equals to the men.

The bibliography alone is a good enough resource.

Also, I recommend: Guns, Germs And Steel by Jared Diamond.

The book isn't expressly designed to tackle the question of gender roles within hunter-gatherer societies, however the subject is covered in detail and offers examples of the interplay between the sexes throughout history.

I think control definitely plays a role, but besides that, I think it's another case of one gender failing to appreciate and understand the other gender's "style" and perspective.

Feminists (or perhaps more accurately, feminazis--since lots of perfectly good and reasonable people casually call themselves feminists nowadays) don't grok how someone can have sex with someone else without being absolutely bathed in oxytocin and lovey-dovey feelings of attachment, and the very idea of attachment-free sex threatens and offends them--especially, since, yes, it means that they don't get to hold all of the cards.

Feminazis and just plain insecure (and typically, young) females alike get freaked out about male masturbation and porno for just about the same reason, I've found.

Now, many good and non-crazy people get on the anti-stripping and/or anti-porn trains out of a sincere concern for women, and an honest hatred of exploitation and abuse. That said, I think most of the leaders at the head of the pack or the movement are primarily motivated by strong envy of the male sex, regardless of their hemming and hawing about abuse.

I do tend to think that legalized, well-regulated prostitution would solve so many of our society's social, legal, and economic problems.



I think it depends on the situation, of course, but, overall, I tend to feel the exact same way. Assuming consenting parties, it's the women who hold the cards and the keys, and the men can only drool and beg for morsels.

And it's not just prostitution. It's also porn.

One particular femitard referred to pornography with the following sentence: "Women are not meant to be your masturbation accesories."



I thought to myself, that's one interesting term for a sex partner.

They're not???

I guess I learned something today.

Well, la-dee-dah. How does she figure, and how does she plan to enforce that little rule?

I've certainly used men as "masturbation accessories." Those people who mind being used as masturbation accessories should a) not appear in porn, b) actively seek out and "advertise for" only sincere and caring romantic partners, and ideally, c) refrain from using others (especially actual sexual and romantic partners) as masturbation accessories. (And, even then, there's still a chance that someone will, without your knowledge or permission, use you as wank-fodder in the privacy of their own home. C'est la vie.)

My main concerned would be getting a gift that keeps on giving more than anything else.

I wouldn't pay for sex anyways. Not even just to have experienced what it would be like to be that pathetic.

Pathetic to one is needed to another, though. The person who commits so much time to study and advancing themselves may not have time to go out and get a girl, and where it is legal if they happen to pay for a sexual release without all the 'courting' involved so to keep their mind on their studies then it serves a purpose. They don’t have to be skanks. You can still be epicurean when it comes to prostitutes.

Personally, I cannot see a downside to legalizing prostitution. That goes without saying.

BUT...I sometimes see conversation about this topic that is disingenuous. I am not saying that this pertains to this particular thread. Prostitutes will ALWAYS be considered...outsiders, for lack of a better word. Seriously, what would your gut reaction be if you learned your sister was a prostitute? Would I associate with someone who is or was a prostitute? Been there...done that. I have also had false rumors circulate about me, perhaps because of my associations.

So...yes...some things would change if prostitution were legal; but, it would also present other problems. There are no easy answer.

That reminded me of a local sitcom here that takes place at a TV station. Two of the female employees are telling the sound guy that he is gross (which he is) and he retorts telling them that when he gets home he can think of their breasts and touch himself until he squirts, which leaves them somewhat dumbfounded.

It was especially funny because one of the girls were played by former porn-actor Katja Kean

I brought this topic up on The Undercroft and got some surprisingly conservative reactions.

I'm ok with it.
I won't lie, Ive engaged the services of prostitutes before and likely will do so in the future.

I'm replying to this before I read any other replies btw.

Western Australia has a regulated sex industry and so brothels are allowed in certain areas and sex workers are regularly screened for STD's.
Of course there are still illeagle street workers and sexual slavery has been known to have occurred, but when the vice unit of the police actively works with the people involved in this industry rather than against them, those who don't comply with the laws and regulations are quickly rooted out.

Why do I know all of this and why should I care?

The truth is that my own mother works in the sex industry so I've made it my business to know.


Please, no Freudian or Oedipal jokes, it's not it good taste...

Oh please, get real. Most men walking the earth have paid for sex in one way or another at some point in their lives. Just cause money didn't blatantly exchange hands doesn't make the statement untrue.

I think the attitude problem mainly comes from christian influenced midsets.

I have read of pre-christian religions accepting Heirorules 'Temple Prostitutes' as a part of the religious order and then;

'The Hebrew Bible uses two different words for prostitute, zonah (זנה)‎[8][9] and kedeshah (קדשה)‎.[10][11] The word zonah simply meant an ordinary prostitute or loose woman.[9] But the word kedeshah literally means "consecrated female", from the Semitic root q-d-sh (קדש)‎ meaning "holy" or "set apart".[10] Qedesha also became the Canaanite name for their goddess of sex (or perhaps a title for either the goddess Astarte or the goddess Asherah in this role), adapted into Egyptian as Qetesh or Qudshu.[12]

Whatever the cultic significance of a kedeshah to a follower of the Canaanite religion, the Hebrew Bible is quick to connect the term with a common prostitute. Thus Deuteronomy 23:17-18 warns followers:

None of the daughters of Israel shall be a kedeshah, nor shall any of the sons of Israel be a kadesh.
You shall not bring the hire of a prostitute (zonah) or the wages of a dog (keleb) into the house of the Lord your God to pay a vow, for both of these are an abomination to the Lord your God.

The religious aspect of kedeshah is underlined by the ancient Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Bible into Koine Greek, which renders the first verse as a double prohibition, both against prostitution, and against being an initiate of foreign cults:

None of the daughters of Israel shall be a prostitute (porne), neither shall any of the sons of Israel be porneuon;
none of the daughters of Israel shall be an initiate (telesphoros), neither shall of the sons of Israel be a teliskomenos.'
Wikipedia

And This;
'The practice devadasi, as it has come to be seen, and similar customary forms of hierodulic prostitution in Southern India (such as basavi),[34] involving dedicating adolescent girls from villages in a ritual marriage to a deity or a temple, who then work in the temple and act as members of a religious order. Human Rights Watch claims that devadasis are forced at least in some cases to practice prostitution for upper-caste members.[35] Various state governments in India have enacted laws to ban this practice. They include Bombay Devdasi Act, 1934, Devdasi (Prevention of dedication) Madras Act, 1947, Karnataka Devdasi (Prohibition of dedication) Act, 1982, and Andhra Pradesh Devdasi (Prohibition of dedication) Act, 1988.'

Note how the prohibition only really became an issue after India was flooded by christian missionaries...

There is nothing inherently pathetic about hiring a prostitute, unless it is your only means of socialization.

Personally, I have had great luck with both guys and girls. Still, I have to say it is time consuming to find an attractive partner that expresses interest in your particular fetishes. If you are looking for something quick, easy, and with no strings attached a prostitute is an easy fix.
Sometimes, it is best to pay the money upfront to fulfill a specific fantasy than to waste countless hours dealing with people only to see the situation go nowhere.

As a female, I’ve never spent money on a date. But I have spent money on an escort to fulfill a particular fantasy. I didn’t waste my time, and received instant gratification. Plus, the whole experience of “ordering” a girl with very specific physical features is something that cannot be replicated in any other situation.
Granted, its not for everyone. But my experience was gratifying.

Don't knock until you tried it.

I admit I haven't been to a strip club in more than a decade, so maybe quality standards took a sharp drop since my last visit...

But as with any other business, you have to shop around. There was a lot of difference from one place to another, some had really beautiful dancers while others I guess hired the ones rejected by the rest.

Some times my friends and I would amuse ourselves making fun of the ugly and unskilled strippers on some of the cheap joints.

Spoil Sport.

I can certainly think of some bad strip clubs I've been to. Here's one of my worst strip club experiences:

I was down in Florida visiting relatives, and my brother and I had an extra day to spend in Tampa. So we decided to check out a strip club. I don't know if this is state-wide, but an odd law they have there is that you can't have a strip club that both serves alcohol AND has the strippers get naked. It was either bikini and booze, or no bikini and no booze. Being a teetotaler at the time, the choice was a no-brainer for me. But my brother wanted to get a drink, so we went to a club in the former category.

Now the typical routine at strip clubs is that you sit and watch, and if you want some more attention you get near the stage and throw a dollar on it. At this club, the women would come up to you first, and then expect the money. So some of these women with enormous bruises or birthmarks (I couldn't tell which) on the insides of their thighs are trying to put their legs on either side of my head as I'm sitting. What can I say, it wasn't a turn-on.

I only had a few ones on me, which I gave out at first, but then after having no ones I kept telling these girls "No, I don't have any money. Go away." And again, none of these women were wearing any less than a bikini. As we were about to leave, I saw one lady lying on her back, while she was trying to do sexy things in the air with legs. And that's when I noticed a band-aid on her knee. That's not the bad part though. Half of the adhesive was off, so this used band-aid was flapping around from her knee...while again, she's trying to act sexy. I wanted to scream "Take it off! Take if off! No, the band-aid!"

Oh, and my brother's over-priced drink ended up being different than what he ordered.

So by extension, you're calling me pathetic. I am not pathetic for being a customer at a legal brothel.

It is rather quite simple: I have specific things I like, I had the money for it, and this was a service who could provide it for me. More importantly, they could provide it for me professionally and legally, without any emotional demands, sexual ineptitude, nor the various bullshit games that come with the singles scene. It's not something I "had" to "resort" to, if that's what you're implying.

Strip clubs and prostitution! What else can I say? I've met more Satanic women within the world of erotica than outside of the world of erotica. I've never payed for sex but I've tossed bills to strippers, both of us with smiles. A lot of the women love sex and love their bodies, and, unlike most women, know how to use their bodies and how to cater to a man's needs. These aren't acts of desperation that I 'resort' to. (As I suppose the majority of the womens clientel is.) As Bill M. states in his last post in this thread, I concur.

That's right playboy! It ain't trickin' if you got it.

Although I never visited any legal brothels, or let alone paid for sex, I have took women out shopping but it wasn't really part of any agreement. It's just what I do. I buy bitches things if they're bad enough.

But giving them money? That's crossing my boundaries. (Unless it's at a strip club. There's nothing like seeing a dancer crawling on the stage on all fours picking up all those $20 bills I threw at her ass.)

Exactly, and it is just serving a purpose until the pleasure model, (like the blonde from Blade Runner) becomes available on the market.

Thanks for the links. I was not familiar with the term "hunter-gatherer".

In one of the links you posted they give the example of the Aborigines in Australia, as being a group of "hunter-gatherers".

I would imagine that the Aborigines in Australia aren't exclusive tribes structured on gender equality.

I would imagine that that is probably common among other tribes of Natives as well, such as in America and to this day in Africa, for instance.

I was not disputing this, however.

I was disputing that prior to civilization, women probably had no say in many matters. Prior to civilization of any kind, talking back to the Neanderthal days, as tribes of Aborigines or Natives, are already civilized to a degree.

The argument is about whether prostitution or agriculture is the oldest profession.

History records would indicate that agriculture is. There are no records of prostitution starting among the groups of "hunter-gatherers", over 10.000 years ago.

If women in these groups of "hunter-gatherers" would exchange sex for whatever goods the men in the tribe would bring, it would not have been done as a profession, on a daily basis, for survival, I'm pretty sure it would have been rather one-offs, otherwise surely there would have been records of it suggesting prostitution started that way.

Yes, you are correct. Since I am married, I pay for it everyday.

I have never read any studies about prostitution, so I cannot comment on that.

My post was directly related to your question about women, what their role in society was 10,000 years ago, and your seeming skepticism that women had any role at all.

Nothing more.

So there should have been some drinks gratis for you (strip club with exceptional rules), when reading how delighted you were at it.

Didn't my link to Butters' explanation solve this already?

HA! I overlooked that post. It's perfectly clear now. Thank you!

Well, the topic is about prostitution so my question was in this context.


My skepticism is about women's freedom in society 10.000 years ago, to charge for sex.


The examples that were given are of Aborigines and Natives' tribes, what serves to show how their societies are structured based on gender equality, 10.000 years ago to date. Their way of life has not changed and they are societies of their own, with their own history. There isn't such thing as a profession within these groups. This example is not valid.

Purely as a mental exercise, I'd venture that in hunter-gatherer societies with more egalitarian gender roles, sex was probably used regularly as a bargaining chip. Sex is enjoyable, it didn't just become enjoyable after agriculture was discovered, and I'm sure that women have exploited the raw sexual appetite of men as long as humans have existed.

In less egalitarian societies, probably not as much - I'd still hesitate to say never, though.

But, as I said, the issue is more complex than say, "women had no freedom 10,000 years ago, not at all, none, period." In some communities, they did, in others, they had less. Peruse the literature and one can read about those that likely practiced gender egalitarianism and those that were more or less patriarchal.

Agriculture is a newborn babe in the room when compared to the millions of years that humans lived and died the hunter-gatherer way. Prostitution is really nothing more than sexual services offered for some kind of payment - hardly matters if it's twenty-dollar bills or nuts and berries.

Just want to take a minute to thank everyone for the inspirational posts on this subject, your opinions actually feels like they are worth reading other then the mainstream crap that revolves around prostitution on other forums.

Of course people enjoyed sex long before they learned how to plant vegetables.




They learned how to sell vegetables before they learned how to sell sex, however.