Page 4 of 4 < 1 2 3 4
Topic Options
#411532 - 02/07/10 11:06 AM Peter Gilmore on deism [Re: M.D. Roche]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
I found it! The interview from WikiNews is indeed what I was thinking of. Thanks, Nick.

"My real feeling is that anybody who believes in supernatural entities on some level is insane. Whether they believe in The Devil or God, they are abdicating reason. If they really believe they are in communication with some sort of interventionist deity…you know, somebody can be a deist and think that maybe there was some sort of force that launched everything and now has nothing to do with it. That’s not anything you can prove. It’s also not a matter of faith. It’s a matter of making a choice between whether there was something or there wasn’t. I think maybe that is the most rational decision. I think science makes it look otherwise, but I don’t think somebody like that is mad. But anybody who believes in some kind of existence in deity or spirits or anything that intervenes in their life is not somebody I hold in any kind of esteem."


Edited by MALFORM (02/07/10 11:06 AM)
_________________________

Top
#411705 - 02/08/10 03:28 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: PsychOff]
Insurgent Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 2309
"At what point do I step in to defend rationalization, logic, science and atheism?"

I for one couldn't tell you. Depends on the situation.

I will, however, tell you that I myself make no claims about universal origins, origins of life or the existence or non-existence of any non-religious deity. My beliefs or lack thereof are based strictly on the here and now and I consider anything else to be folly and, given my goals in life, a waste of time.

I refuse to say there is no god. I am, however, quite happy with saying "Your god does not exist."

In this sense, in the modern definition of the term and where Atheist evangelists have taken it, I am not an Atheist nor do I consider it to be a defining characteristic of Satanism.

I say this because your post asks the question as though all Satanists here are, in fact, strong Atheists.
_________________________
My site: www.josiegallows.com

"My dear Insurgent you're an extremist, intolerant and you have prejudices. That's all."

"I am a fucking Satanist and desire in all of my being to be the Queen of the World if at all possible...."

Top
#411708 - 02/08/10 04:21 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Machismo]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11532
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: RealityPrinciple
To be an atheist you have to be logical.

No, the only requirement for atheism is lacking a belief in the existence of deity. How that stance was arrived at, is irrelevant to the definition.

Quote:
What else but logic would lead a person to atheism?

Somebody's atheism could be the result of...
  • Indoctrination. For example, many people who grew up in the Soviet Union were taught atheism as a component of communist ideology. Some people slowly become atheists after hanging out with other atheists or being married to one for a long time.
  • Emotional trauma. Some people assume that benevolence and omnipotence are deity requirements, and thus after experiencing some traumatic event in life, conclude that deities don't exist.
  • Rebellion against authority (parents, local religious leaders, etc.)
  • The false assumption that theism is incompatible with other unrelated things that the person feels strongly about (science, certain political views, etc.)
  • The false assumption that it's the only other option to the religion of their parents and/or culture.
This last one is especially common among self-described "atheists".

Quote:
Faith is inherently illogical. The two things are opposites. Either you believe something for reasons of logic or you believe it on faith.

A fact which you and so many other atheists overlook, is that theists largely do consider their belief in deity to be a logical conclusion. (See the poll in "How We Believe" by Michael Shermer, p75-87). Faulty premises? Sure. But that doesn't make it a pure act of "faith" or mean that there's no logic involved.

Quote:
Once you have faith as your starting point, yes, you can be logical from that point on. Thomas Aquinas was great at that. But if your premises are no good, your logic will be no good.

No, the validity of premises has absolutely no bearing on whether or not a logical argument is fallacious. The argument of "all horses are green; my cell phone is a horse; therefore it's green" is no less logical than saying "all insects have 6 legs; a bee is an insect; therefore a bee has 6 legs". The underlying logic of both arguments is the same, and logically correct, since neither is a fallacy.
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

(Wenn du Google's Übersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)

Top
#411800 - 02/09/10 05:14 AM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Bill_M]
Machismo Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Bill_M
Somebody's atheism could be the result of...
  • Indoctrination. For example, many people who grew up in the Soviet Union were taught atheism as a component of communist ideology. Some people slowly become atheists after hanging out with other atheists or being married to one for a long time.


Now that's something I never thought of. Should have, in hindsight. Good point.

Quote:
  • Emotional trauma. Some people assume that benevolence and omnipotence are deity requirements, and thus after experiencing some traumatic event in life, conclude that deities don't exist.


  • Faulty premise! But you get into that below. I'm not a logician. When I hear a faulty premise, I call it illogical. Bad habit on my part. I'll stop. Just calling it faulty would be better. Or plain stupid! It's obvious that God could exist without being benevolent or omnipotent or omniscient. Anyone who can't see that is a dipshit.

    Quote:
  • Rebellion against authority (parents, local religious leaders, etc.)


  • Wouldn't that guy just be saying he's atheist? I guess maybe not. Feeling-based truth judgments blindside me all the time. I just don't get them. Secret of lesser magic, I guess. Never been my strong suit.

    Quote:
  • The false assumption that theism is incompatible with other unrelated things that the person feels strongly about (science, certain political views, etc.)


  • Another kind of feeling-based truth judgment that blindsided me.

    Quote:
  • The false assumption that it's the only other option to the religion of their parents and/or culture.
  • This last one is especially common among self-described "atheists".


    Faulty premise again. I won't call it illogical. This old dog is learning a new trick. I'll call it plain stupid! Of course God could exist and be nothing like Jesus or Jehovah or Allah. But your point is that stupid atheists exist. Your point's a good one. I don't seem to meet these assholes. I need to get out more.

    Quote:
    No, the validity of premises has absolutely no bearing on whether or not a logical argument is fallacious. The argument of "all horses are green; my cell phone is a horse; therefore it's green" is no less logical than saying "all insects have 6 legs; a bee is an insect; therefore a bee has 6 legs". The underlying logic of both arguments is the same, and logically correct, since neither is a fallacy.


    Got it. The distinction was lost on me before. If your conclusion is false, who cares if your logic is valid? Logicians care. Got it. I would have said that the first rule of being logical is to check your premises. I'd be wrong. I need a different word than logical. Napalm Nick already made that clear to me. Just not sure what word to use. People who don't check their premises are stupid. People who do are smart? I want a narrower word. One that means premise-checker. Or maybe I should make one up and post it at Unwords! jack
    _________________________


    Top
    #411809 - 02/09/10 06:43 AM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Machismo]
    NapalmNick Offline
    CoS Member

    Registered: 08/23/08
    Posts: 2151
    Whatever word you come up with make sure it sounds really offensive. Remember, two of the most offensive words in the English language have "gg" in the middle of them; perhaps that will give it a boost. grin
    _________________________
    "Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

    "May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

    "[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

    Top
    #411848 - 02/09/10 10:47 AM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Machismo]
    Bill_M Offline
    CoS Reverend

    Registered: 07/28/01
    Posts: 11532
    Loc: New England, USA
    Originally Posted By: RealityPrinciple
    But your point is that stupid atheists exist. Your point's a good one. I don't seem to meet these assholes. I need to get out more.

    If you really want to see them come out, mention "Satanism". Then watch them try to argue against it.

    Quote:
    I need a different word than logical.

    "Rational"?
    _________________________
    Reverend Bill M.

    http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
    New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

    http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

    (Wenn du Google's Übersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)

    Top
    #411859 - 02/09/10 11:45 AM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Bill_M]
    Bill_M Offline
    CoS Reverend

    Registered: 07/28/01
    Posts: 11532
    Loc: New England, USA
    While on the subject, the following is one of the best pages I've seen for a basic review of Boolean logic and a formal guide to different fallacies. And from an atheism site, of all places. I've had it bookmarked for at least 10 years:
    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html
    _________________________
    Reverend Bill M.

    http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
    New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

    http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

    (Wenn du Google's Übersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)

    Top
    #411895 - 02/09/10 06:13 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Bill_M]
    NapalmNick Offline
    CoS Member

    Registered: 08/23/08
    Posts: 2151
    That's a pretty bulky list of fallacies. The current book I'm reading (which I may or may not review here) has a MASSIVE list of fallacies. Always good to know them.

    Overall a pretty concise page. I've bookmarked it as well.

    For anyone interested, a decent book to start you on logical thinking is Being Logical by D.Q. McInerny.
    _________________________
    "Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

    "May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

    "[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

    Top
    #412380 - 02/13/10 03:40 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Machismo]
    Machismo Offline
    CoS Member

    Registered: 02/05/10
    Posts: 1132
    Loc: New Jersey
    Originally Posted By: RealityPrinciple
    I have breakfast once a month with a Lutheran pastor and Lutheran deacon, two good friends of mine. I just don't bother discussing religion with them, as that's the one aspect of them that I have nothing but contempt for. There are plenty of other things to talk about.


    So I had breakfast with the Lutheran deacon this morning, and discovered he's a freaking Deist! He knew the word and applied it to himself. He ended up there after thinking hard about how cruel life can be and how hit or miss prayer is. Hell, it turns out he isn't that far from atheism! He started to say he was agnostic but I explained strong and weak atheism and he said the weak kind was more and more where his head was at. I'm a weak atheist too. The Lutheran deacon and I are freaking soul mates! Not morally, of course. Although, hell, you never know with this guy! Maybe his morals are different from what I would have thought.
    _________________________


    Top
    #412411 - 02/13/10 09:03 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Machismo]
    Nemo Offline
    CoS Magister

    Registered: 10/06/02
    Posts: 12494
    Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
    Yes.

    Never judge a book by its cover.

    Some of the most Satanic people I know are not Satanists!

    Top
    #412446 - 02/14/10 12:51 AM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Nemo]
    Marko Offline


    Registered: 02/13/10
    Posts: 11
    Loc: Sweden
    Define the word "god" for me. To most people it seems to be a sentinent, creating, omnipotent entity but to quote a great mind known as "Epicurus" I say:

    “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
    Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing?
    Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing?
    Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing?
    Then why call him God?”


    But if the term "god" is simply "the bringer of life", then by logic, the natural "god" might be the sun.
    _________________________
    I'm a wheel, i'm a wheel I can roll I can feel
    And you can't stop me turning
    Cause i'm a sun, i'm a sun you can move you can run
    But you can't stop me burning

    Top
    #412517 - 02/14/10 10:06 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Marko]
    Nemo Offline
    CoS Magister

    Registered: 10/06/02
    Posts: 12494
    Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
    Quote:
    Define the word "god" for me.


    No need to reinvent the wheel. grin

    Here you go:

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/god

    Of the four definitions offered, two are pretty secular:

    "a person or thing of supreme value" and "a powerful ruler".

    Top
    #412770 - 02/16/10 02:41 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Nemo]
    Marko Offline


    Registered: 02/13/10
    Posts: 11
    Loc: Sweden
    Originally Posted By: Nemo
    Quote:
    Define the word "god" for me.


    No need to reinvent the wheel. grin

    Here you go:

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/god

    Of the four definitions offered, two are pretty secular:

    "a person or thing of supreme value" and "a powerful ruler".


    Then I choose me as of "supreme value" grin
    Next comes the sun, bringer of life
    _________________________
    I'm a wheel, i'm a wheel I can roll I can feel
    And you can't stop me turning
    Cause i'm a sun, i'm a sun you can move you can run
    But you can't stop me burning

    Top
    #412774 - 02/16/10 03:04 PM Re: There is NO/A God... [Re: Marko]
    Bill_M Offline
    CoS Reverend

    Registered: 07/28/01
    Posts: 11532
    Loc: New England, USA
    Pretty much every definition of "God" I've heard is either so overly specific that the notion is a self-contradiction (e.g. "omnipotent AND benevolent AND omniscient") or so vague that it's a useless personification (e.g. "God is love").

    Most atheists will say that their reason for not believing in deity is the "lack of evidence". But when it comes to religious beliefs, validation is really just based on subjective experiences and using deity as the explanation for that. Most on-line atheist/theist fights come down to the theists insisting that their subjective experiences have to be objectively valid to everybody else, while the atheists demand empirical evidence for other people's subjective experiences.

    My main reason for being an atheist is that I don't need theism. I've simply found the concept of deity to be not only a useless model, but counter-productive to understanding anything.
    _________________________
    Reverend Bill M.

    http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
    New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

    http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

    (Wenn du Google's Übersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)

    Top
    Page 4 of 4 < 1 2 3 4


    Forum Stats
    12015 Members
    73 Forums
    43825 Topics
    405206 Posts

    Max Online: 197 @ 10/04/11 06:49 AM
    Advertisements