Thank you for taking the time to respond. I do appreciate it. This might sound rude and I don't mean it to be, but please don't hurt yourself trying to help me.
I have a lot of info on this subject already.
Your 1st post
Look up Revelation 12:7 - 9, and Isaiah 14:12-16.
As for the book of Enoch, look up 29:4 and 31:4
Was more helpful and accurate. However I responded to it in private, and the part about Enoch 29:4 and 31:4. What book did you use?
I'm confused where did you get the #'s from (29:4)? I've never seen a copy written like the bible. Except one I have a book called YHWH the book of knowledge key's of Enoch, it's written in a format like the bible but reads like Scientology.
It's all about angels but I just started reading it and it's not an easy read.
However your #'s don't match and I'd find them more useful if I knew where the came from.
Unfortunately I think that can be impossible because of new versions and different translations. The actual Dead Sea Scrolls are protected in a museum.
Their all translated interpretations, like the bible, from the dead sea scrolls.
Looks like I'm going to the museum.
Lucifer was one name for the "adversary".
I see you missed something so I'll help you.
No! It's not. Lucifer = Luxfer = luxferre = light to bear, not "adversary".
His real name is supposed to be Samael
How do you know that? If it wasn't the perfect example of my question I wouldn't have humored these statements with a response. It's obvious you come from a very x-tian background. Which one is it? And Where do you get that kind of information from? If you don't know, I understand, I don't expect you to be able to answer me. What I was looking for is source references.
Lucifer or Samael didn't become "Satan" until after his rebellion. Satan is not another person but a new label for the archangel after his rebellion against "God".
So Satan's now an archangel? Revelation 12:7 - 9 I thought he was a dragon.
Actually Satan is the Hebrew word for advisory.
satan = advisory.
Please cite your reference for this info how about an author or a web page. I'm lost. If your using the bible we covered it's not in there unless you have one I don't.
Or, Maybe it's part of the Borg hive-mind I will never understand because I'm an outsider. I'd except that answer too.
So here is my interpretation; According to the holy bible, Lucifer, Belial, Satan, Leviathan, Beelzebub, etc. are representing the same person but by different authors
Ok, it's safe to say different authors allow for different interpretation.
Yes, according to x-tians belief any imaginary deity except their own is Satan. This has been covered, is well known, and doesn't answer my question.
It's clear this is their belief. What isn't clear is how they know these names, Or How they got to the point of blaming everything on Lucifer. Where does that notion come from?
Also Leviathan is in a bible I have, as one of the creators of earth not as Satan. This bible is also now on the Apocryphal list. As for Belial and Beelzebub I don't recall where in the book they are but believe their mentioned in one story apiece. They are more commonly known for their appearances in Paradise Lost, the grimoire of Solomon and Diablo.
I can't say it helps me to lump them together. It's an x-tian way of thinking. It illiterates for me just how complicated the question is.
It almost makes more since to lump them together, as their all fictional caricature. Any incite into their origins would lead me to the same conclusion. How ever I won't because doing so would be inaccurate. Their stories are different even if the imagination that they stem from is similar.
I'm not big on Latin but the christmas story was based off of pagan beliefs. Most of the bible's beliefs on those kinds of stories are originated from paganism.
I noticed or you wouldn't of tried to say Lucifer and Satan mean the same thing.
Yes they are based on pagan beliefs which is the point I was making, to people who knew that already, when I said..
I know already the morning star derivative is base on Venus and some how went through the same process as Christmas to control a pagan ideal.
Paganism was based off of Sumerian beliefs I think.
Yes, it was. Sumerian culture was the 1st to have a written language.
... the story of Lucifer despite the fact it isn't in the bible.
My references to you should differ your claim of it not being in the bible.
No, it doesn't because I mentioned them and cited why their not viable points.
I also pointed out already, most copies of the bible that just say..(a correction to my statement) Day Star in reference to Venus quoted by the king of Babylon not Lucifer.
My original question is how do x-tians even know this name there is no actual written source for it in the bible? How do you go from Paradise Lost to assuming it's in the bible? Perhaps Milton is one of the lost books of the bible or an apocryphal one. If they at least gave him credit I'd be ok with it, but to pass off someone elses work with out reference just add to the pretentiousness of it.
The part about that old dragon in revelations doesn't always say Satan, though I have more than one copy that does. I also have one that doesn't.
Like I said above, all the other names including Lucifer are directed to one rebellious archangel. Even though you're reading about a "dragon" and a war in heaven, you're reading about a metaphor about the archangel which is mentioned as Lucifer from a previous book in the bible. It's just a different story.
The word Lucifer isn't in the bible at all, unless you look on-line. Your reaching to say the two stories are connected or that the caricatures in them are the same.
The Isaiah story is in reference to the king of Babylon. Written years before the story in revelations. Isaiah would have never known about it since the dead sea scrolls were one of the only forms of writing at the time for sharing info, except for word of mouth.
To make a point What's an Archangel and how do you know that? because Michael slayed a dragon in a section of revelations? Now correct me if I'm wrong but isn't revelations written in such a way to say it hasn't happened yet? How then can it be assumed that war has already taken place?
"..metaphor about the archangel which is mentioned as Lucifer from a previous book.. " That just not true! Much of the x-tian biblical misconception is illustrated in this statement.
To assume that, what they meant to say is.. "Lucifer is an Archangel who is now Satan because he got cast out of heaven." is ludicrous but makes my point. You stated it in the same fashion as any x-tian. So tell me why you draw those conclusion despite the lack of obvious evidence.
Just admit it's Milton or do you have a book of Enoch I can reference. It's funny I was trying to avoid it but my conclusion plays to the fact Milton has had more influence then Enoch on this story.
It's not childish. That is why I answered the best way I could off of what I studied. I was curious like yourself and studied it.
That's sweet thank you.
My advice don't get taken in at face value. You didn't dig very deep before drawing a conclusion.
Sorry it's so long.