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#415266 - 03/09/10 01:05 PM Indulgence… NOT Compulsion
Zsche Offline



Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 158
Loc: Where the 5.56 casings fall...
I have always been an all or nothing, go big or stay at home, no gray area sort of guy. This has been true for as long as I can remember - in all aspects of my life. Moderation is not something that seems to come easily or naturally to me.

I love indulging in anything that fulfills my physical, mental, or emotional states: food, alcohol, sex, possessions, exercise, laziness, music, art, gardening, and any other activity or media which creates a proper release for my desires at the given time.

I have found that indulgence is something that I certainly enjoy – but given my historical predominant tendency of taking things to extremes, I have personally been presented with some challenges associated with indulgence.

Obviously if one eats too much on a regular basis, they become overweight. Too much alcohol can have dire consequences. Too much sex can not only make you sore – but can cause other serious issues as well. Anything that is indulged upon to the extreme “can” eventually cause one to be enslaved by the indulgence – and then becomes compulsion.

Being aware of myself and understanding my disposition, I logically know that I am excessive and tend to over-indulge. Regardless of the fact that I am aware of it, there are times when it doesn’t seem to matter. Desire seems to take precedence and I over-indulge again, or repeatedly - knowing full well that at times I am violating Satanic Sin #1. This is only just coming to the surface for me, and I am attempting become more aware of my desires and keep a tight grip on the reins so that I do not fall into compulsion.

It should be known that I am continuing to study and learn, and this is the intent of my post. I would like to hear from others who have had similar experiences or have knowledge on this topic – including methods used to stay within the limits of moderate indulgence, or additional reading that I may study to continue my understanding.

Hail Satan!
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Phineas
My suggestion to you, besides obtaining a copy of The Satanic Bible and reading it, is to immerse yourself in the information contained at the Church of Satan website.

Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
You can't guzzle whiskey and pinch pretty ladies' asses when you're dead.

Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster
Love life. Live life. Don't fuck with people unnecessarily. Don"t let other people fuck with you. Simple guidelines that that will help you to make informed, intelligent and Satanic decisions.

Originally Posted By: Callier
Constructive criticism is one thing but people that just point blank tell others what they should be doing with their lives without any kind of permission can eat a bag of hairy balls.

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#415268 - 03/09/10 01:42 PM Re: Indulgence… NOT Compulsion [Re: Zsche]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
It sounds like you have an addictive personality, which I have as well. The cliche "everything in moderation" bears a lot of truth. Too much of a good thing can always turn into a bad thing, eventually.

I try to recognize certain things in life that I simply cannot indulge in with moderation, such as alcohol. I know that if I have as much as one sip of beer I'll be guzzling down a 40oz a few minutes later, which could lead to an infinite amount of disastrous consequences (for me, anyway). Thus, I've made a commitment to myself not to touch alcohol--ever again. It's been over 7 months since my last drink and I feel great.

Now I have a doctor who is encouraging me to stop smoking. I'm not looking forward to that... cry
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#415274 - 03/09/10 03:00 PM Re: Indulgence… NOT Compulsion [Re: Zsche]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
Congratulations, Nibas. Many people would look at their failure to avoid over-indulgence and simply reinterpret it as some kind of success. Instead, you recognize it. Hail Satan!

Now for the interesting part: Methods to stay within the limits of moderate indulgence. There is not a silver bullet. You are going to experience some degree of discomfort, even pain. No methods, techniques, or pearls of wisdom are really going to change much of that fact.

Malform's suggestion to avoid things that you know will lead to compulsion is not a bad idea at all. If you know that you will feel compelled to guzzle down a 40 after a sip, and you also do not wish to succumb to the pain of avoiding the 40oz chaser, then why introduce more pain or discomfort than you are willing to tolerate? The idea is analogous, I think, to walking upon the precipice of a slippery slope. If you know that your shoes have no grip on the icy slope, it would be foolish to walk upon it if you wanted to avoid sliding down it.

But, this technique has a problem: It is pain/discomfort avoidance. True, the so-called alcoholic might not ever be able to have just one drink, but that is simply because he or she is unable to deal with the pain or discomfort of controlling him- or herself. One cannot avoid all pain or discomfort, for that is not exactly vital existence. The trick is to overcome it. Naturally, the conclusion to draw is that alcoholics should just tough up and stop at one drink.

If only.

Did I mention that you owned your problem earlier? So-called alcoholics do not. They blame it on alcoholism. It is a disease. Check the Handbook of Diseases. It is in there.

Good luck finding a cure for that disease.

The problem is pain or discomfort management, and people quite sensibly avoid these sensations. It makes sense to do so. Pain and discomfort are a signal that something is wrong. If my foot feels extremely hot all of a sudden, I should look down and check that it is not on fire. I would be stupid to just sit there and muse, "Oh, my foot feels as if it were on fire. How strange." It is a necessary survival mechanism. But, not all pain or discomfort should be avoided. In fact, some of it should be embraced.

Successful fitness competitors and body builders must deal with the pain or discomfort of their training routines that they can achieve title. Successful investors or traders must tolerate the pain or discomfort--or the risk--of losing capital that they recoup their temporary losses and achieve lasting wealth. Successful boxers or martial arts competitors must deal with the pain or discomfort of not only getting physically hit, but even losing a match, that they can achieve victory over their opponents.

None of them did it overnight. They overcame this pain with gradual practice, and not necessarily within the purview of their profession. They learned, perhaps unwittingly, to tolerate, even embrace pain and discomfort over time.

Well, that is easy to do. I am sure nearly everyone here can eat a 12" sub, and even more a 6" sub, but can anyone here do it in one bite? And, since we are talking pain and discomfort here, throw hot peppers on it to make the analogy fit better. smile

Find things in which you must tolerate pain and discomfort that result in some sort of gratification. Then, do them. Only, do not just do them, but note the pain or discomfort you experience. Note how you dislike the steps toward your goal, but relish in the goal. (Naturally, this involves setting goals, intermediate goals, etc. Nothing to be taken lightly, but I am trying to stay on point.) Even use a journal to make note of your pains and discomforts.

You mentioned that you exercise. How many pushups can you do? A hundred? Two hundred? More? Whatever it is, do more. Go to failure, rest, then go to failure again, then again. Do it until you cannot push up once. Or, go to the bench and do burnouts. (It always cracks me up when the bar kicks my ass. It must look funny.) Head to the pullup bar and continue in the same fashion. When you can no longer do one pullup, get a box to put you at the bar, and swing your feet up under you and do negatives.

Note the pain and discomfort, then and later when it really sets in. (And, make sure you support your exercise with proper rest, nutrition, balance, variety, etc...)

Get into the habit of recognizing the pain and discomfort that you already tolerate or embrace. Get into the habit of also recognizing the goal or goals you likewise achieved. All those exercises suck, but how far can you go next week? Further, I bet. Such pursuits are rewards in and of themselves, but do not hesitate to reward yourself justly for this job well done. (Just not with something you cannot yet control! If a sip of beer turns into many, how about a good movie you wanted to see instead?)

Then, apply these positive experiences of overcoming or embracing pain and discomfort in your other endeavors. Where you once felt overcome with compulsion, you may now approach with a sense of purpose and ability. Success begets success, I think. Likewise, be honest with yourself as you clearly are, and do not approach thresholds of pain you know you are still ill equipped to pass.

And, for the record, I am not suggesting that so-called alcoholics can just do grueling exercises and then have a gin and tonic. The fact is that so-called alcoholics may never, in such endeavors, exceed pain and discomfort thresholds that approach the pain and discomfort of avoiding more than one more.

All the same, I suspect that if alcoholics were busy with recognizing or embracing pain and discomfort as I have explained, they would at least be able to tolerate not having the first drink with nary the thought. Let alone those stupid meetings where they "admit" that they have a disease.
_________________________

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#415289 - 03/09/10 05:13 PM Re: Indulgence… NOT Compulsion [Re: M.D. Roche]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11561
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: MALFORM
The cliche "everything in moderation" bears a lot of truth.

Personally I prefer the extended version: "Everything in moderation, including moderation."

Doing a "binge" indulgence in something is fun to do once in a while, whether it's a huge meal, or a week of video game playing, etc.
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#415291 - 03/09/10 05:25 PM Re: Indulgence… NOT Compulsion [Re: Bill_M]
Mephisto Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 07/03/02
Posts: 63
Loc: Portugal
Originally Posted By: Bill_M
Originally Posted By: MALFORM
The cliche "everything in moderation" bears a lot of truth.

Personally I prefer the extended version: "Everything in moderation, including moderation."

Doing a "binge" indulgence in something is fun to do once in a while, whether it's a huge meal, or a week of video game playing, etc.


Couldn't agree more with you Reverend on this matter.
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#415298 - 03/09/10 05:47 PM Re: Indulgence… NOT Compulsion [Re: Mephisto]
SINClair Offline


Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 320
Loc: Europe
It would be a mistake to so quickly assume an excess to be by default a compulsion, or a moderation to be by default an indulgence.

One can for instance have two beers after work every single day, the day when he feels like it, and the day when he does not feel like it just the same, making it a compulsion.

Also one can binge drink once a year, making it an indulgence.

As for the initial post, when you cannot do something moderately, then the only option there could be really is abstinence. I cannot see any other way around it, I'm afraid.

There are only 3 possible ways about it: When you are not doing it moderately, you can only be doing it excessively, or not doing it. Simple physics. grin
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#415299 - 03/09/10 05:49 PM Re: Indulgence… NOT Compulsion [Re: Bill_M]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
Another valid point. How else is one to beat any Zelda game? I mean, really. (Or Robot Unicorn, of all things.)

As long as Zelda does not take precedence over life-sustaining things--in other words, you are not calling in sick from work to beat it--it can be okay.

One of those weird gay-sex, unlit German club orgy rooms can be okay. At least interesting. If you and everyone you bump into is using protection.

What the hell? Go ahead, lock yourself in a room--or not--masturbate to five Internet feeds of your favorite fetish porn, all the while drinking a beer, smoking a cigarette, ending sequence of Zelda on the tube, having just ordered something off your Amazon wish list, munching on a box of Twinkies--is that what you're watching? eek--all the while you have yet to take the cans out to the trash, but who cares? The trash runs on Fridays, too. All the while, your best friends are watching. Who cares? I know, right?

I am sure I missed a few crucial details.

So long as this is not every day, or you are a billionaire who can afford it and still makes time to eat and care for other necessities--I knew I missed the juicy steak part of the fantasy.... no, lobster--it is okay. (Take your vitamins, champ.)

Indulge. Rinse. Repeat.

But, make time for everything else, including keeping it check that it does not become compulsion.

You ultimately know your own limitations. If not, discover them.
_________________________

Refuse to die.

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#415304 - 03/09/10 06:06 PM Re: Indulgence… NOT Compulsion [Re: Zsche]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
I see the point I wish to make has already been made. None the less, I'll add my two cents.

There are times when I see the phrase quoted "indulgence not compulsion", and I almost feel as if I am in Sunday School. This is not a "do not touch" religion. Compulsion has little, if anything to do with amount. If I drink until I drop, and enjoy every minute of it, it's an indulgence. If I drink one drink because I can't seem to stop myself, and do not get any pleasure out of it, it is a compulsion.

I applaud your self-knowledge. Basically, you want to be responsible for your actions. Responsibility is as satanic as indulgence.

Note: This post is not meant as an invitation to over-indulge; but, should one want to see who ends up under the table first, I'm game.
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#415313 - 03/09/10 06:58 PM Re: Indulgence... NOT Compulsion [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Babydoll Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/03/06
Posts: 863
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Nibas
Desire seems to take precedence and I over-indulge again, or repeatedly


But you're still indulging, right? So what's the problem?

Roho summed it up nicely:


Originally Posted By: Roho
Compulsion has little, if anything to do with amount. If I drink until I drop, and enjoy every minute of it, it's an indulgence. If I drink one drink because I can't seem to stop myself, and do not get any pleasure out of it, it is a compulsion.


So, unless you're not actually enjoying your activity, or it otherwise significantly interferes with your health or desired lifestyle (which you haven't said), then how is it compulsion?

If it does interfere with your desired lifestyle/health, you just have to honestly assess the risk to benefit to decide if it's worth it. If it's not worth it but you do it anyway, that's compulsion.


Edited by 2faced_babydoll (03/09/10 07:26 PM)
Edit Reason: rewording!
_________________________
HAIL SATAN!

One LIFE - One chance



Who are We?

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#415327 - 03/09/10 07:57 PM Re: Indulgence… NOT Compulsion [Re: TheAbysmal]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Originally Posted By: Vitaeviternus
So-called alcoholics do not. They blame it on alcoholism. It is a disease. Check the Handbook of Diseases. It is in there.


Any "alcoholic" who attends meetings and doesn't recognize the fact that it is a self inflicted "disease" would have their ass handed to them when "sharing their experience" in front of people who have been in the program for decades.

On the topic of indulgences,simply put:
If you can't handle your shit,don't do it.

On the topic of removing yourself from situations in which you are tempted,I'd advise it. You can't just stop drinking;you have to remove yourself from those situations and those people who will push you to do so. Simply because of the possibility that hanging out with them will lead you to your temptaion,your partaking (not indulgence) in that temptation could lead you to your known problem with that temptation,and that could possibly end with you incarcerated,dead,sick,injured,or even at the very least at a crossroads within yourself. None of those things are very Satanic. Anything that you do to destroy the quality of your life for any amount of time that you deem bad/wasted/etc. could and should be avoided so that the quality of your life can consistently be pushed towards furthering yourself in this rat race.

If even being around those who CAN indulge in those things comfortably,and without conuter-productive consequences,tempts you to indulge in the same things that you KNOW will lead you to what YOU would deem a negative outcome, why even risk it?

I expect some backlash.Opinions are like assholes I guess.In advance,agree to disagree.

Hail Life!Hail Satan!
_________________________
You stay classy,Satans!

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#415351 - 03/09/10 11:00 PM Re: Indulgence… NOT Compulsion [Re: ArtAche86]
SteelAndStone Offline


Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 40
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Bill_M
Personally I prefer the extended version: "Everything in moderation, including moderation."

Doing a "binge" indulgence in something is fun to do once in a while, whether it's a huge meal, or a week of video game playing, etc.

I find that this is not only fun, but it's a good strategy to maintain self-discipline the rest of the time. For instance, I have an easier time getting up early during the week if I know I'm going to sleep in on Saturday.
_________________________
Let no sun set which has not shone upon your advance.

The Book of Steel and Stone

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#415403 - 03/10/10 09:31 AM Re: Indulgence… NOT Compulsion [Re: Zsche]
Zsche Offline



Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 158
Loc: Where the 5.56 casings fall...
I would like to thank everyone for their input, comments, suggestions, and for sharing their knowledge and experiences.

I have concluded the following from everyone’s comments:

Indulgence is great - even if extreme – provided that it is a choice, it is enjoyable, and provided it doesn’t interfere with your health or your life to the point that the risks outweigh the benefits.

Compulsion is not being able to make the choice, is not enjoyable, and puts one at risk.

The key to moderation is to know your own limitations, be aware of yourself, be responsible, and exercise self-discipline – which can sometimes be difficult or painful.

It’s all pretty much common sense to me – and these are things that I already knew… I just wanted to hear from others regarding their own experiences and views on the topic.

Hail Satan!
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Phineas
My suggestion to you, besides obtaining a copy of The Satanic Bible and reading it, is to immerse yourself in the information contained at the Church of Satan website.

Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
You can't guzzle whiskey and pinch pretty ladies' asses when you're dead.

Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster
Love life. Live life. Don't fuck with people unnecessarily. Don"t let other people fuck with you. Simple guidelines that that will help you to make informed, intelligent and Satanic decisions.

Originally Posted By: Callier
Constructive criticism is one thing but people that just point blank tell others what they should be doing with their lives without any kind of permission can eat a bag of hairy balls.

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#415434 - 03/10/10 01:58 PM Re: Indulgence… NOT Compulsion [Re: ArtAche86]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
The main complaint I have with Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous is that it's based on the idea that a "Higher Power" can save an addict from themselves. I pity anyone who subscribes to this disgusting notion. They take away the crutch of drugs and alcohol and replace it with another: a "God of our understanding". Wouldn't it be better to learn how to live life without needing a crutch at all? Doesn't that sound more like "rehabilitation"?
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#417674 - 04/03/10 01:57 PM Re: Indulgence… NOT Compulsion [Re: Zsche]
lhpjeffery Offline


Registered: 04/03/10
Posts: 12
Loc: Ohio
I too have a very addictive personality. However, I've always made it a point to never become addicted to anything, but enjoy it in moderation. I also found that when things were done in moderation I tend to enjoy them much more, than if I was to indulge in them on a daily basis. Therefore, I find a lot of validity behind this saying & think it's an extremely important concept for the Satanist to grasp & practice.
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- Jeffery

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#417695 - 04/03/10 08:10 PM Re: Indulgence… NOT Compulsion [Re: Zsche]
Adveser Offline


Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 429
Loc: California
I agree with a lot of the sentiments expressed here and am glad I am not alone in the manner in which this is to be taken.

To me, indulgence is pleasure. Compulsion is pain. When something pleasurable becomes painful, a burden or unenjoyable and you can't control your ability to stop it, it is a compulsion.

Let's take the overeating example. If someone happens to enjoy eating a bit more than they need and they enjoy doing so, This is not compulsion. It is not compulsion to willfully make the decision to ignore the negative consequences because you enjoy the alternative better. That is not always the case with everything. I remember a study that concluded 6-7 hours of sleep a night makes you live longer, but for some 8-9 hours is essential. No one would choose to be miserable and tired for the rest of their lives to get a couple extra months tacked on.

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#417832 - 04/05/10 11:23 AM Re: Indulgence… NOT Compulsion [Re: Adveser]
lhpjeffery Offline


Registered: 04/03/10
Posts: 12
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: Adveser
To me, indulgence is pleasure. Compulsion is pain.


Very well put! I like that, a lot.
_________________________
- Jeffery

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#417845 - 04/05/10 04:31 PM Re: Indulgence… NOT Compulsion [Re: Zsche]
Happy Birthday LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
My opinion on Indulgence vs Compulsion is;

Indulgence is a voluntary act while Compulsion is an involuntary act. Even though you would be doing the same thing with the same amount of that act, the difference between voluntary or involuntary is what defines Indulgence and Compulsion.

Such a hairline difference is what sets them apart from each other.

You may be able to have over-indulgence on something but if you can stop that act at any time then it isn't compulsive.

If you try to stop but you feel the urge and get to the point of acting out explosively after restraining, that is compulsion.

Originally Posted By: Adveser
When something pleasurable becomes painful, a burden or unenjoyable and you can't control your ability to stop it, it is a compulsion.


Yeah, that is also what I was getting at. smile

My examples of Compulsion would be like those who are addicted to drugs, alcohol, or cigarettes. Even if they try to stop, they have this urge to obey their needs. Example of Indulgence is like going to a random picked strip club or maybe going to the movies. Compulsion is harmful, Indulgence is harmless (if it has nothing to do with compulsive inducing acts).
_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

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#417846 - 04/05/10 04:44 PM Re: Indulgence… NOT Compulsion [Re: M.D. Roche]
ArtAche86 Offline


Registered: 10/24/08
Posts: 380
Loc: Cthulhu's Bowels,Kentucky
Originally Posted By: MALFORM
The main complaint I have with Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous is that it's based on the idea that a "Higher Power" can save an addict from themselves. I pity anyone who subscribes to this disgusting notion. They take away the crutch of drugs and alcohol and replace it with another: a "God of our understanding". Wouldn't it be better to learn how to live life without needing a crutch at all? Doesn't that sound more like "rehabilitation"?


My God of my understanding,is Me. I think everyone here would agree with that.

This is really a small point. If crying in these rooms can keep one more drunk asshole off the roads (or at least sober when they are on them) then I don't really care what they do,or who they acknowledge as a higher power. It's one less person I have to worry about killing myself and my family on the road.
_________________________
You stay classy,Satans!

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#417862 - 04/05/10 06:34 PM Re: Indulgence… NOT Compulsion [Re: LordofDarkness]
Adveser Offline


Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 429
Loc: California
Thank you both, i'm glad I was able to put it in words that simplified it so well.

I will disagree with you about cigarettes, there are many Satanists who smoke or are former smokers. It is more of a question of the extent and the motivation for the smoking. I for one enjoy it heartily. I might quit one day, but for now it is beneficial. It gives me a few minutes to think and keeps me from eating too much. My family has no instances of cancer, but diabetes is present, so the offset works in my favour. I'm not trying to come up with an excuse, but it works for me.


Edited by Adveser (04/05/10 06:35 PM)

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#417905 - 04/06/10 12:19 AM Re: Indulgence… NOT Compulsion [Re: Adveser]
Happy Birthday LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 760
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
Originally Posted By: Adverser
I will disagree with you about cigarettes, there are many Satanists who smoke or are former smokers. It is more of a question of the extent and the motivation for the smoking. I for one enjoy it heartily. I might quit one day, but for now it is beneficial. It gives me a few minutes to think and keeps me from eating too much. My family has no instances of cancer, but diabetes is present, so the offset works in my favour. I'm not trying to come up with an excuse, but it works for me.


That's perfectly fine.

I only meant for those who have that uncontrollable urge to smoke another cigarette. I myself am not a smoker nor do I drink alcohol. Everybody calls me the Destignated Driver, Good Two-shoes, or just say that I am pure. I prefer that because it makes me feel that I have control over my own body. Whenever I go out with my girlfriend, she gets an aloholic drink which is usually Taquila or Magarita while I get a soda or something.

I personally don't see anything inherently wrong with smoking as I live with a full family who are all smokers. I asked if they would quit one day and they said they couldn't. That it was something they can't control. This is where I added cigarettes to the issue.

It's a good thing that you still have control though.

I'll give a Hail Satan to that! smile \m/
_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

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