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#415703 - 03/13/10 04:44 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10143
I mostly agree, possibly for a different reason.

Even if the court rules that she may take her girlfriend to the dance, it's not going to change anyone's attitudes. It will probably just wind up creating more animosity. Doesn't mean she shouldn't do it, but the underlying problem will continue to exist.

However, it's 100% bullshit that the school cancelled the dance over this. What a douchebag thing to do.
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#415704 - 03/13/10 04:49 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10580
Loc: England
Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
Even if the court rules that she may take her girlfriend to the dance, it's not going to change anyone's attitudes.



Attitudes to homosexuals have changed and they will continue to so.

The fact is homosexuals are discrminated against, still, in these small ways. It's not what I'd call oppression. But I can understand them feeling aggrieved at these stupid rulings we still have.

But homosexuals are no longer castrated, put in prison for it or put to death. So attitudes have changed through the efforts of what is essentially a counter-culture that has challenged the status-quo.
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#415705 - 03/13/10 04:58 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Old_Pig]
Machismo Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Old_Pig
So they didn't let her go to a glorified kiddie party. Boo-hoo!


If it had stopped there, the story would have bored me and I would have passed it by, yawning. But instead, the high school cancelled the prom, and now the girl has to attend classes with kids who probably hate her guts. OK, she isn't being flogged or having her fingers crushed in a vise. But her days surely suck, and I suspect there's a real possibility that she will be targeted for physical violence.

My reaction? Empathy. If I didn't empathize, I wouldn't care about this total stranger. Did she stupidly bring it on herself? To some extent, yes, but any normal person would have expected to be banned from the prom, and then to be mocked by the dimmer of the student body; instead, the high school cancelled the prom for everyone, causing many students to be frustrated in something they (perhaps idiotically) valued, with an obvious scapegoat on which to vent their spleen. I doubt she saw that one coming. I wouldn't have. It's the high school's bizarre over-reaction that caught my attention here. I guess I'm just sick and tired of bible-thumpers and their homophobia, and the level of suffering they are willing to inflict in their self-righteousness. If the girl ends up in the hospital from severe injuries, it will anger me. Maybe that makes me a softie. I only care about strangers if I empathize with their plight. Such is the case here.
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#415728 - 03/13/10 08:58 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: ROA]
JanusFaust Offline


Registered: 02/10/10
Posts: 20
What I never understand about people is:
If they don't want you, when you're not welcome, when you're frowned upon, shunned, you name it;
WHY go through all the trouble to be able to go there anyway?

I must say I do not understand the hype around "the prom" because in my country at schools, it's not a common happening.

And I do understand people wanting to fight for "their rights" or push the boundaries every now and then..

But then again; WHY?
EVEN when someone is offering you the means to still continue what you want to do elsewhere?

"The fact that this will help people later on, that's what's helping me to go on."
I think I threw up a little...
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#415729 - 03/13/10 09:04 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: ROA]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1814
Loc: Denmark
I'm gonna go with Reverend Strongbone here.

Often we see people come in here saying "I'm not gonna follow this law because it is unfair/stupid/keeps me from doing what I want", and in this case it seems the girl is doing the right thing, trying to change the rules.

I've also noted that both girls are seeking an education, i.e. they seem not to be loosers who whine about their lot in life, but people interested in making a contribution to society.

Also it seems that their choice of clothes suggest that they are keeping within the general aesthetic of the event with formal attire.

So, it seems that they are reasonable people wanting to be treated equally with their fellow students except for one fairly minor issue in my view.

The sooner we get done with the whole gay rights thing, the better - they need to be productive members of society, educated, married, taxpayers, soldiers and what have you, just like the rest of us, so that they can't pull the "oppressed" card.

I think my country has pretty much gotten there. It's more than ten years since the queen had openly gay MP's attend formal dinners at the castle and one of the mayors of Copenhagen is an openly gay actor. He wasn't able to pull the gay card last time he fucked up smile
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#415732 - 03/13/10 09:49 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: verszou]
Ms. Harlot Offline


Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 49
Loc: Austin, TX
I agree with Reverend Strongbone as well. Honestly, how many of us would say that Rosa Parks was an idiot for not getting off her lazy ass? There was more to the notion than not wanting to get off her seat, and there's more to this than a dumb prom. I didn't go to mine, I found it to be a stupid ritual, but I understand her mindset.

But I also agree that the word "oppressed" has been used far too lightly lately, here in particular. Forgive me, maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see anywhere on the article where she was quoted describing herself with that term. To me, it was used by the journalist (or the OP) to pull in readers and possibly get a reaction. I guess it worked.

This was not oppression. She or her girlfriend were not denied something as important an education, the right to vote, or even the right to be homosexual. They were denied access to a meaningless prom, but it was still discrimination. I think she took the most logical steps, but the school's reaction was so extreme that nobody would've expected it. Now she's facing discrimination and bullying. I hope it turns out well for her.
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#415735 - 03/13/10 10:58 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Ms. Harlot]
ROA Offline


Registered: 04/20/06
Posts: 43
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: Ms. Harlot
I agree with Reverend Strongbone as well. Honestly, how many of us would say that Rosa Parks was an idiot for not getting off her lazy ass? There was more to the notion than not wanting to get off her seat, and there's more to this than a dumb prom. I didn't go to mine, I found it to be a stupid ritual, but I understand her mindset.

But I also agree that the word "oppressed" has been used far too lightly lately, here in particular. Forgive me, maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see anywhere on the article where she was quoted describing herself with that term. To me, it was used by the journalist (or the OP) to pull in readers and possibly get a reaction. I guess it worked.

This was not oppression. She or her girlfriend were not denied something as important an education, the right to vote, or even the right to be homosexual. They were denied access to a meaningless prom, but it was still discrimination. I think she took the most logical steps, but the school's reaction was so extreme that nobody would've expected it. Now she's facing discrimination and bullying. I hope it turns out well for her.


Ok, my use of the word “oppressed” was a bit of overkill. It was never used in the original article; I added it to the title for emphasis. When this situation is compared to say, work camps (as in Old_Pig's post) it doesn’t hold up very well. My writing tends to be a bit over dramatic at times; sometimes it makes sense, other times it doesn’t. I will try to use more accurate terms the next time I post an article. My apologies.

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#415736 - 03/13/10 11:10 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: ROA]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3409
By cancelling the prom the school is hoping she'll get harassed. No, she's not oppressed, we've cleared that up, but the administrators responsible for her education, and a safe environment, are manipulative. They must want her classmates to resent her; it will discourage her and future dissent.

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#415738 - 03/13/10 11:17 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: ROA]
MagdaGraham Offline
CoS Priestess

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 13369
Loc: Scotland
I wonder how much her "very supportive" parents have encouraged her to take this stand.
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#415743 - 03/13/10 12:21 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
JCLAG Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 1244
Your comments throughout this entire thread have been spot on.
Cheers!
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#415745 - 03/13/10 12:38 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8274
I wonder what would happen if she had her girlfriend show up dressed as a girl, then, when some of the straight girls dance together, as it often happens, go out and do the same. A little contrivance, instead of this all or nothing approach.

Two extreme positions butting heads produces a massive headache. Is a compromise not possible? You catch more flies with honey.

If someone is homosexual they are not striving to be different. They are just what they are.

Quite true. Some, however, have this in your face, militant attitude that creates animosity.

I also have to wonder what was omitted in the original article.
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#415752 - 03/13/10 01:51 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
Liberterius Offline


Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 241
Not completely sure about how proms are held in other english-speaking countries, though from what I hear they aren't nearly the "omfg im a princess get me a limo NAO and MOAR flowers we cant use the high school gym we need a HOTEL bwaaaaaa!" fiascoes that they are here in the good ol' USA.
Though I'll admit I did go to mine, and had a good time.

Anyway this story, I heard of it from a ACLU update, and it does disgust me. No, this isn't NEARLY oppression in the sense of gulags and exile to siberia and "white only" signs. But as someone said, in terms of what an American teenagers is likely to experience, this is really bad. I don't think shes being whiny at all. Who knows, maybe she is a spoiled whiner in real life, we don't know that, but what we do know is that: she wanted to go to prom with her girlfriend. The theocratic Confederate schoolboard wouldn't let her, and proceeded to alienate her from her classmates and effectively encourage bullying of her for it.

No offense, but I feel some of you not living in the US underestimate the homophobia here...granted I live in NY, have all my life so I have little firsthand experience of the Bible Belt region other than news stories like this. But it's bad...I fully stand with this girl and her rights, and fully against the schoolboard. Having legally and socially disadvantaged groups like this is bad because A: it's preventing people from being as happy and productive members of society as they could, and B: it allows groups to play the victim/race/orientation/sock color card when it ISN'T justified. (Not the case here of course. I wouldnt call this an even metaphorical card game)

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#415753 - 03/13/10 02:00 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
Originally Posted By: Phineas
I wonder what would happen if she had her girlfriend show up dressed as a girl, then, when some of the straight girls dance together, as it often happens, go out and do the same. A little contrivance, instead of this all or nothing approach.

Two extreme positions butting heads produces a massive headache. Is a compromise not possible? You catch more flies with honey.

If someone is homosexual they are not striving to be different. They are just what they are.

Quite true. Some, however, have this in your face, militant attitude that creates animosity.

I also have to wonder what was omitted in the original article.


Hey, it's no fun "standing for something" if you aren't going to purposely attempt to piss off and annoy other people now, is it? grin

Some people feel that they cannot exercise their rights unless everyone else around them knows about it. Some people feel they are not "being themselves" unless they are attempting to shove their identity into someone else's face. It's no fun being different if you can't show it off.

The "wearing a tuxedo" thing was a huge red flag for me reading this. It's a lot of arrogant nonsense contrived to purposely stir up the shit pot, and nothing more. If they had simply shown up at the fucking dance without making a big deal out of it, no one would have said a damn thing. Instead, it had to be a flamboyant, out-of-the-closet production, meant to "create awareness"; a STATEMENT instead of a simple night at the prom.

If a vegetarian goes to a restaurant and orders a potato, nobody will say anything.

If a vegetarian goes to a restaurant and brags to everyone else about how eating steak is miserably evil, everyone is going to get pissed off and throw them out on their ass.

As far as rights, discrimination, etc..."Hell-O! Hell-O McFly!" What the hell else was to be expected?

This is just par for the course, same shit different pile, just another group of crybabies crying it out.

Big deal.

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#415754 - 03/13/10 02:36 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: TheDegenerate]
Liberterius Offline


Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 241
TheDegenerate I find you a little needlessly cruel here...

Sure, a vegetarian can go to a restaurant, get salad and a potato and no one says anything...but then, is anyone going to STOP her from ordering that potato?
My point is that there is very little cultural stigma or social discrimination against vegetarians, whereas there is against homosexuals. I understand your point as well; that people can go ridiculously out of their way to present their "identity" and all...but you're honestly blaming the victim. She should be allowed to go with a girl as a date, and wear a tux too if she feels like it; the school board has no right to get all pissy about something that causes no harm, isn't disruptive (unless THEY make it so) and is just a fun time.

Sexual orientation and dietary choices are different; you shouldn't get all preachy and holier-than-thou about either of em, but we all deserve freedom of choice in both, and it's prom, I mean let a girl have fun. In this case honestly I also think it IS a legitimate stand for rights: you can see, IN THIS CASE, and others (such as gay marriage still being illegal in most states, gay men not allowed to donate blood in many states) that gays are denied full and equal rights as everyone else.

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#415756 - 03/13/10 02:42 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Liberterius]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
As a homosexual male, I don't bother concerning myself with matters such as marriage or proms, because they really don't affect me personally. However, even though you'll most likely never spot me at a gay rights rally, I most certainly support such efforts from the side line.
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