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#415757 - 03/13/10 02:46 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Liberterius]
Liberterius Offline


Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 241
Sorry for double post, but just to explain a little more on "exercising of rights":

Let's suppose it's 1960, Atlanta. Jim Crow still alive and well, much progress of integrating schools but still a hell of a lot of state-sponsored discrimination and societal hate. Klan running around lynching, cops turning a blind eye, etc.

And then let's suppose some African-Americans start a black pride group. Starts in just a church, but it grows, integrates unions, regular black citizens, even some sympathetic whites. And they go have a "black pride parade", write to the newspapers up north,; all around "go out of their way" to show that they are proud of who they are, angry at the denial of their rights, and won't stand for it anymore.
Should anyone honestly blame them, in that time, for "shoving their identity in others' faces," while governors stand in front of school-house doors to stop integration and the cops are bringing firehoses against peaceful protesters? I don't think you reasonably can.

Now, in 2010, if I saw black people doing a Black Panthers rally or crap like that in my city, I'd just be pissed off. Why? Because they have full and equal rights now, not to mention more than equal affirmative-action. Granted there's still societal bigotry to some extent, but that's nothing compared to 50 years ago, and there's certainly no "whites only" signs.

Homosexuals are in a similar position to blacks in the 50s and 60s. Granted it has improved tremendously since even 20 or 10 years ago, but there's still state discrimination against them. Point; I don't blame some degree of strong identification and pride for gays in the face of the bigotry they currently face.

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#415759 - 03/13/10 02:49 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Bill_M]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: Bill_M
I've always found it interesting that Mississippi and Alabama always end ranked at the bottom for education levels, and at the top for religious fervor.


Don't forget illiteracy rates and infant mortality! smile

Colorado's actually embroiled in a similar controversy right now. A lesbian couple tried to enroll their child at the local Catholic school, and the school turned them away, on the grounds that their "lifestyle" wasn't in line with the "values of the Archdiocese"--well, and since having to hear that every day would hurt the child's feelings, turning the family away is the only genuinely loving, caring, Christian thing to do, you know, and it's in everyone's interest, you see. (Because Heaven forbid we just give up the fag-bashing!)

It appears the lesbians themselves have decided to just drop the issue and take their business elsewhere--a very wise choice, in my estimation--but the debate rages on--and well it should, because these institutions should know that they are stubbornly standing on the wrong side of history, yet again.

You would think various parties and institutions that are still wiping the egg of their faces from Jim Crow, the Holocaust, the Inquisition, and other such events would be willing and able to read the writing on the wall, and step out of the path of the next high-flying omelette. But, I guess not.

Words like "oppressed" and "victim" make me gag, too, because they do tend to be tossed around rather lightly by total whiners who think oppression is being told that they can't smoke pot in front of the library. However, I think institutions, people, and groups that pull this kind of bigoted or bureaucratic shit (whatever you want to call it) DO deserve to be taken to task for it.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#415760 - 03/13/10 02:49 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Zaftig]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Quote:
By cancelling the prom the school is hoping she'll get harassed. No, she's not oppressed, we've cleared that up, but the administrators responsible for her education, and a safe environment, are manipulative.

How is sabotaging the safety of someone's environment NOT oppression?

You don't have to get sent to Siberia to be oppressed. The USSR had massive resources to use to oppress its subjects. School administrations in small towns in Alabama do not. They will use the means at their disposal to similar ends: to demoralize and threaten people who do not fit their idea of how people should be.

Just because their means are more limited and the scope of their action is smaller, doesn't mean it's not in the same category.
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#415761 - 03/13/10 03:04 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Liberterius]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8238
Homosexuals are in a similar position to blacks in the 50s and 60s.

Utter nonsense. Anyone who was there during that time period knows it. Skin color is not the same as sexual orientation.

There is no historical comparison.

This is just another group that wants special rights, not equal rights.

Try and organize a straight parade, and have the attendees dress and behave as in a gay pride parade, and watch what happens. One group goes to jail for public lewdness, the other gets a police escort because they are exercising their "rights".

Total double standard. There is plenty of heterophobia to go around from the homosexual community, they are just as prejudiced and bigoted as the rest.
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#415763 - 03/13/10 03:10 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
Originally Posted By: Phineas
Total double standard. There is plenty of heterophobia to go around from the homosexual community, they are just as prejudiced and bigoted as the rest.


The only form of "heterophobia" I've ever encountered from gay males is their disgust with vaginas.
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#415764 - 03/13/10 03:16 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
1) How are marriage, adoption, and child custody, for example, special rights?

2) Ever hear of Mardi Gras? Girls Gone Wild? Jersey Shore (well, or MTV in general)? Straight people have their outlets for acting horny and obnoxious, too.

3) Some straights attend pride parades, and some gays don't, and not all gays dress in leather and feathers and march down the sidewalk. I'm not sure how some people behave in that context should have any real bearing on whether or not the whole group should be allowed to adopt, marry, attend proms, attend schools, or what have you. Certainly, nobody's trying to stop the retards on MTV from having kids or getting married.

4) If people were shutting down entire events just to keep me out, or passing bills to actively prevent me from marrying, I might resent them a bit, too. Wondering why some homosexuals are sore on heteros is like wondering why Satanists aren't in love with Kirk Cameron.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#415766 - 03/13/10 03:26 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: TrojZyr]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8238
Mardi Gras does not count. This is an event that is all inclusive and does not celebrate one particular group. I purposely stated gay pride parades - a live event conducted in public, celebrating homosexuality. Hardly a comparison to some TV show.

Marriage, etc. are privileges established by societies. They are not rights. Groups such as these attempt to portray them as rights, though. That's where the commotion starts.

I don't have to wonder why some homo's hate straights. I can see it for myself. I can see the prejudice some hetero's have for the gays, and I can also see it happening the other way around.

If you can have gay pride, why not straight pride.
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#415767 - 03/13/10 03:26 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
Maupassant's Offline


Registered: 01/08/10
Posts: 35
Originally Posted By: Phineas
This is just another group that wants special rights, not equal rights.


The right to go to a prom wearing a tuxedo is hardly special.

If the herd thinks you're a lesbian weirdo, it's their problem. But when they try to impose that way of thinking onto your life, it becomes your problem. That girl had enough balls to stand up for herself showing courage and at least some sense of self-value.

Another fact is that there definitely is a tendency among minorities to play victim, because so-called political correctness awards such behaviour.

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#415769 - 03/13/10 03:39 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Maupassant's]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8238
The right to go to a prom wearing a tuxedo is hardly special.

If the herd thinks you're a lesbian weirdo, it's their problem. But when they try to impose that way of thinking onto your life, it becomes your problem


But its perfectly alright for her to impose her standards and aesthetics on them, eh? grin

Both groups are taking the wrong approach.

The girl should be allowed to attend the prom, with her friend, and the school should be allowed to enforce a dress code.

_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#415770 - 03/13/10 03:57 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
Maupassant's Offline


Registered: 01/08/10
Posts: 35
And how do you think she was trying to impose a sense of aesthetics on the school?
Homophobia is, at least in theory, not a standard in american schools, so by planning to go to a prom with another girl she wasn't really imposing anything. Her liberties would not affect anyone - it's not like the u.s. citizens have never seen a girl in a tux before.

Plus by wearing a tux she actually was in line with the schools dress code :- )

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#415771 - 03/13/10 04:02 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Maupassant's]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8238
The manner in which she has gone about this. That is what shows it.

Seems to me she is more interested in raising an issue than attending the prom.

Life is not a free for all. You do not get to do everything you want, whenever and wherever you want, with whomever you want, dressed as you want.

Attending a prom is a right? Who woulda thunk....

_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#415772 - 03/13/10 04:27 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10556
Loc: England
>> Seems to me she is more interested in raising an issue than attending the prom. <<


If the authorities hadn't been challenged on these issues homosexuals would still be being thrown into prison.

>> Life is not a free for all. You do not get to do everything you want, whenever and wherever you want, with whomever you want, dressed as you want. <<

Absolutely. But when the criteria levelled against a law abiding citizen is a moral judgement stifling personal freedom it has to be challenged.

I see no signs of her trying to force her choices on anyone else. Simply standing up and challenging their rulings against her.

It's simple: homosexuals are discriminated against because of underlying Christian values in society. Like a lot of things. And this is exactly the kind of thing The Church of Satan stands in opposition to.



_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#415773 - 03/13/10 04:30 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
Maupassant's Offline


Registered: 01/08/10
Posts: 35
Originally Posted By: Phineas
The manner in which she has gone about this. That is what shows it.

Seems to me she is more interested in raising an issue than attending the prom.


That may be true, yet she hasn't gone about it any worse than the school did by cancelling the whole prom...

Originally Posted By: Phineas
Life is not a free for all. You do not get to do everything you want, whenever and wherever you want, with whomever you want, dressed as you want.


Right, but you try to get what you can. And her claim certainly isn't outrageous.

Originally Posted By: Phineas
Attending a prom is a right? Who woulda thunk....


While it may not be one of the basic human rights, denying it to a specific person still requires a good reason.

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#415774 - 03/13/10 04:45 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Liberterius]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3547
Loc: Cowtown
Originally Posted By: Liberterius
TheDegenerate I find you a little needlessly cruel here...

Sure, a vegetarian can go to a restaurant, get salad and a potato and no one says anything...but then, is anyone going to STOP her from ordering that potato?
My point is that there is very little cultural stigma or social discrimination against vegetarians, whereas there is against homosexuals. I understand your point as well; that people can go ridiculously out of their way to present their "identity" and all...but you're honestly blaming the victim. She should be allowed to go with a girl as a date, and wear a tux too if she feels like it; the school board has no right to get all pissy about something that causes no harm, isn't disruptive (unless THEY make it so) and is just a fun time.

Sexual orientation and dietary choices are different; you shouldn't get all preachy and holier-than-thou about either of em, but we all deserve freedom of choice in both, and it's prom, I mean let a girl have fun. In this case honestly I also think it IS a legitimate stand for rights: you can see, IN THIS CASE, and others (such as gay marriage still being illegal in most states, gay men not allowed to donate blood in many states) that gays are denied full and equal rights as everyone else.


I'm not blaming the victim.

I am "blaming" both parties. The "victim" for underestimating the bigots against her, and the uptight stick-in-the-ass prudes for canceling the dance altogether over a couple of lesbians.

Yes. Gays are denied rights. Blacks were denied rights.

Boo-fucking-hoo.

I am not saying I AGREE, at all. All I am saying is, these people who act so "shocked and alarmed" when they are discriminated against, are obviously missing a part of the picture. I am completely and utterly AGAINST determining peoples lifestyles; I find it absurd, and completely ridiculous. But this is not an isolated situation, it has happened before and it will happen again; and the administration of this school are the ones setting the rules in terms of sexual conduct, dress code, etc. If it is against their dress code that broads can't wear suits, that is up to them.

This is not, to me, about what is "right" or what is "fair." It is simply about what IS.

Someone decided to "fight the power", and the power found a way for them to lose.

Is the girl going to lose her hands over this? Maybe she won't be making as many friends among the shallow, pathetic single-celled life-forms that she goes to school with. When she is at the forefront of a gay pride parade years later, and all the bullshit and hypocrisy of the public school system is behind her, if anything, this experience will empower her feet-in-the-dirt, rock solid ideologies. She will be more of a hard-nosed dyke than ever, and hopefully, (and this IS my hope,) will have a chance to shit on the heads of her oppressors someday with a real victory.

And if her victory happens this time, and she does get to go to the dance in the end, then good for her! But it should not be EXPECTED. Just like she should not have expected that asking "can my girlfriend come to the dance and where a tuxedo?" to a bunch of backwater stiffs would have gone over well.

Reality sucks some times, but at the very least, it is consistent. If everyones idealistic fantasies came true ALL the time, nobody would be able to bitch; and with some people, that's what they do best. Life is cruel, a girl can't go to the prom, but they didn't put her up against a wall and blow her head off today.

(EDIT: This post came off more abrasive than I had thought...not trying to offend anyone here, I obviously have nothing against gays, or blacks, or penguins, or whatever group does not specifically define me. I know a lot of gays who simply love members of their own sex; and they despise the "movement" and identity that goes along with being a homosexual. Just like I know hispanics, asians, natives, and all of that shit, who are not hung up on their own racial roots, and who are generally annoyed by the people screaming "OPPRESSION!" from the rooftops. When we talk in public about these issues, it's only stuck-up, arrogant white people who get offended at remarks like "chink" and "fag", even if the person I am talking to happens to be one of them! Funny how that works.)


Edited by TheDegenerate (03/13/10 04:50 PM)

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#415775 - 03/13/10 04:49 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: TheDegenerate]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10556
Loc: England
>> This is not, to me, about what is "right" or what is "fair." It is simply about what IS. <<


The girl is only 18. She's still learning about how the world will view and treat her.

Wisdom will come to her through these experiences.
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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