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#415645 - 03/12/10 04:02 PM Oppressed lesbian student fights back
ROA Offline


Registered: 04/20/06
Posts: 43
Loc: Ohio
Source
Quote:

JACKSON, Miss. – A lesbian student who wanted to take her girlfriend to her senior prom is asking a federal judge to force her Mississippi school district to reinstate the dance it canceled.

The American Civil Liberties Union of Mississippi on Thursday filed a lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Oxford on behalf of 18-year-old Constance McMillen, who said she faced some unhappy classmates after the Itawamba County School District said it wouldn't host the April 2 prom.

"Somebody said, 'Thanks for ruining my senior year,'" McMillen said of her reluctant return Thursday to Itawamba Agricultural High School in Fulton.

The lawsuit seeks a court order for the school to hold the prom. It also asks that McMillen be allowed to escort her girlfriend, who is a fellow student, and wear a tuxedo, which the school said also violated policy.

The district's decision Wednesday came after the ACLU demanded that officials change a policy banning same-sex prom dates because it said it violated students' rights. The ACLU said the district violated McMillen's free expression rights by not letting her wear a tux.

McMillen said she never expected the district to respond the way it did.

"A lot of people said that was going to happen, but I said, they had already spent too much money on the prom" to cancel it, she said.

McMillen said she didn't want to go back to the high school in Fulton the morning after the decision, but her father told her she needed to face her classmates.

"My daddy told me that I needed to show them that I'm still proud of who I am," McMillen told The Associated Press in a telephone interview. "The fact that this will help people later on, that's what's helping me to go on."

The school board statement said it wouldn't host the event "due to the distractions to the educational process caused by recent events" but didn't mention McMillen. District officials didn't return calls seeking comment Thursday.

At least one supporter has offered to help McMillen and her classmates hold an alternate prom.

New Orleans hotel owner Sean Cummings told The Clarion-Ledger of Jackson he was so disappointed with the school board's decision he offered to transport the students in buses to the city and host a free prom at one of his properties.

"New Orleans, we're a joyful culture and a creative culture here and, if the school doesn't change its mind, we'd be delighted to offer them a prom in New Orleans," he told the newspaper. "Concluding your high school experience should be a joyful one. One shouldn't conclude that experience with all their friends on a negative note."

Same-sex prom dates and cross-dressing are new issues for many high schools around the country, said Daryl Presgraves, a spokesman for GLSEN: Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network, a Washington-based advocacy group.

"A lot of schools actually react rather than do the research and find out what the rights of these students are," said Presgraves.

McMillen says she hopes her fight will make it easier for gay students at other schools facing discrimination.

"I want other kids to know that's it not right for schools to do that," she said on CBS's "The Early Show."

In 2002, a gay student sued his school district in Toronto to allow him to attend a prom with his boyfriend. A judge later forced the district to allow the couple to attend and stopped the district from canceling the prom.

U.S. Rep. Jared Polis, D-Colo., said a bill he's introduced in Congress would make it illegal to discriminate against gay and lesbian school students. He said at least 10 states have such laws, and his bill is modeled after those.

"This situation with the prom is a perfect example of why we need to protect students from discrimination. In this case it's a prom. It other cases, it's getting beaten up or killed," Polis said.

The school district had said it hoped a privately sponsored prom could be held.

Southside Baptist Church Pastor Bobby Crenshaw said he's seen the South portrayed as "backwards" on Web sites discussing the issue, "but a lot more people here have biblically based values."

Itawamba County is a rural area of about 23,000 people in north Mississippi near the Alabama state line. It's near Pontotoc County, Miss., where more than a decade ago school officials were sued in federal court over their practice of student-led intercom prayer and Bible classes.


I hate seeing such bigotry coming from a position of authority. I hope this girl is successful in her lawsuit against these idiots. I am glad that I am in college now instead of being in High School. Now admittedly I never faced anything like this, but now I am in an atmosphere where I can be treated as an adult and not pushed around by people that want to control who I am.
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#415646 - 03/12/10 04:09 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: ROA]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11460
Loc: New England, USA
I've always found it interesting that Mississippi and Alabama always end ranked at the bottom for education levels, and at the top for religious fervor.
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#415647 - 03/12/10 04:17 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: ROA]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
Wow... they'd actually rather have no prom at all than let a lesbian couple show up in tuxedos. Maybe they hoped that canceling it altogether would encourage the other students to form an angry mob and hang her from a tree-- ya know, next to all the other pesky minorities.
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#415648 - 03/12/10 04:18 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: ROA]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10555
Loc: England
Brilliant story.

I like anyone who challenges this widespread bigotry that is the bedrock of Anglo/American society. Life killing zealots.

Good luck to the girl. Great to see she has a supportive and understanding father.
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#415654 - 03/12/10 05:21 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: ROA]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2127
I read this story earlier when I was checking my e-mail.

Of course it is terrible, and that girl (and her remarkably supportive family) have my sincerest sympathies. But really, what do you expect from a bunch of God-fearing backwoods morons?

They are the prime reason I'll probably never live in the South again. Sure, they do exist elsewhere, but I can say from experience that Mississippi is the most bigoted state. Fuck it. We'd all be better if it sank into the Gulf of Mexico.
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#415657 - 03/12/10 05:41 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: ROA]
Machismo Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: New Jersey
Imagine the animosity that must be pouring out at this poor girl from every student who was looking forward to the prom. Won't surprise me if it escalates to serious violence. Lamb of God, grant us peace, my ass.
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#415660 - 03/12/10 06:24 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: ROA]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3961
Loc: The Deep South
So they didn't let her go to a glorified kiddie party. Boo-hoo!

I remember when "oppressed" meant 30 years of forced labor in Siberia.

PS: I'm not siding with the bible-thumping assholes, I’m just amused by how lightly the word “oppressed” is thrown around nowadays. The famous Monty Python sketch comes to mind.
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#415674 - 03/12/10 10:23 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Old_Pig]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
I personally have never understood "the big deal" about high school proms, and probably never will. It's one of those absurd rituals that young people are expected to partake in, just because.

However, it's obviously not just about fighting for a stupid prom.
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#415677 - 03/12/10 10:31 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Old_Pig]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12409
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:
I remember when "oppressed" meant 30 years of forced labor in Siberia.


I must admit that similar thoughts came to me when I read this.

I sometimes see bumper stickers on cars that read, "Question Authority" which really mean "Give cops a hard time".

Having been around police and military most of my life I just cannot relate.

An "enemy" is someone trying to kill you.

A cause worth fighting for should be on the same level.

Context is everything.

P.S. I love your graphic illustrations and storylines!

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#415680 - 03/12/10 11:09 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: M.D. Roche]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3961
Loc: The Deep South
Originally Posted By: MALFORM
However, it's obviously not just about fighting for a stupid prom.


I understand the issue here is more than the prom... but not much more.

I find interesting how some people strive to be as different from the herd as possible... then they act offended when the herd excludes them from their herd-oriented rituals.

You either belong or you don't.

You can't be a "proud black sheep" then go whining about your lack of camouflage in winter.
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#415681 - 03/12/10 11:18 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Nemo]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3961
Loc: The Deep South
Thanks, Magister. I'm glad you like my work.
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#415682 - 03/12/10 11:28 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Old_Pig]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8697
He's not the only one! I have always considered you to possess true genius - not just "talent".

You combine art, humor, and Satanic perspectives in one easy to digest package as well as anyone I know.

I've read every comic on every page of your site and check in regularly to see your newest work.

Knowing your life story just adds depth when viewing your work.

Your work has given me much amusement! Now I feel guilty for not praising you more before now!

wink
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Sound waves are fluctuations in the density of molecules in a substance; second sound waves are fluctuations in the density of phonons. Second sound can be observed in any system in which most phonon-phonon collisions conserve momentum. This occurs in superfluids and in dielectric crystals when Umklapp scattering is small.

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#415683 - 03/12/10 11:30 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Old_Pig]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8236
I find interesting how some people strive to be as different from the herd as possible... then they act offended when the herd excludes them from their herd-oriented rituals.

Precisely. I have absolutely no sympathy for those who play the victim card.

Oppressed my foot, these whiny kids have no idea what oppressed really means.

_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#415699 - 03/13/10 04:09 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
Maupassant's Offline


Registered: 01/08/10
Posts: 35
Originally Posted By: Phineas
Oppressed my foot, these whiny kids have no idea what oppressed really means.


Nothing is a cliche when it's happening to you.

You are right that what these kids call oppression is nothing compared to some of the harsher things some political systems were doing not so long ago - but it's the only oppression they know. [I guess that says something about how safe a society the USA is.]

I hope they make it, but screaming that your basic human rights were violated is not the way. You don't win by making yourself a victim.

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#415702 - 03/13/10 04:34 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Old_Pig]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10555
Loc: England
>> I find interesting how some people strive to be as different from the herd as possible... then they act offended when the herd excludes them from their herd-oriented rituals.<<

If someone is homosexual they are not striving to be different. They are just what they are.

I agree, this kind of thing is not exactly oppression - certainly not in the truest sense of the word as I understand it.

What it is is beurocratic bullshit. But these people are life killing zealots who do strive. They strive to enforce their moral values on others.

This kid isn't whining. She has taken counter-action against a bullshit policy that says she can't take her girlfriend to a fucking dance.

Good luck to her.
_________________________
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#415703 - 03/13/10 04:44 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
I mostly agree, possibly for a different reason.

Even if the court rules that she may take her girlfriend to the dance, it's not going to change anyone's attitudes. It will probably just wind up creating more animosity. Doesn't mean she shouldn't do it, but the underlying problem will continue to exist.

However, it's 100% bullshit that the school cancelled the dance over this. What a douchebag thing to do.
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"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#415704 - 03/13/10 04:49 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10555
Loc: England
Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
Even if the court rules that she may take her girlfriend to the dance, it's not going to change anyone's attitudes.



Attitudes to homosexuals have changed and they will continue to so.

The fact is homosexuals are discrminated against, still, in these small ways. It's not what I'd call oppression. But I can understand them feeling aggrieved at these stupid rulings we still have.

But homosexuals are no longer castrated, put in prison for it or put to death. So attitudes have changed through the efforts of what is essentially a counter-culture that has challenged the status-quo.
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#415705 - 03/13/10 04:58 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Old_Pig]
Machismo Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Old_Pig
So they didn't let her go to a glorified kiddie party. Boo-hoo!


If it had stopped there, the story would have bored me and I would have passed it by, yawning. But instead, the high school cancelled the prom, and now the girl has to attend classes with kids who probably hate her guts. OK, she isn't being flogged or having her fingers crushed in a vise. But her days surely suck, and I suspect there's a real possibility that she will be targeted for physical violence.

My reaction? Empathy. If I didn't empathize, I wouldn't care about this total stranger. Did she stupidly bring it on herself? To some extent, yes, but any normal person would have expected to be banned from the prom, and then to be mocked by the dimmer of the student body; instead, the high school cancelled the prom for everyone, causing many students to be frustrated in something they (perhaps idiotically) valued, with an obvious scapegoat on which to vent their spleen. I doubt she saw that one coming. I wouldn't have. It's the high school's bizarre over-reaction that caught my attention here. I guess I'm just sick and tired of bible-thumpers and their homophobia, and the level of suffering they are willing to inflict in their self-righteousness. If the girl ends up in the hospital from severe injuries, it will anger me. Maybe that makes me a softie. I only care about strangers if I empathize with their plight. Such is the case here.
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#415728 - 03/13/10 08:58 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: ROA]
JanusFaust Offline


Registered: 02/10/10
Posts: 20
What I never understand about people is:
If they don't want you, when you're not welcome, when you're frowned upon, shunned, you name it;
WHY go through all the trouble to be able to go there anyway?

I must say I do not understand the hype around "the prom" because in my country at schools, it's not a common happening.

And I do understand people wanting to fight for "their rights" or push the boundaries every now and then..

But then again; WHY?
EVEN when someone is offering you the means to still continue what you want to do elsewhere?

"The fact that this will help people later on, that's what's helping me to go on."
I think I threw up a little...
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Vi veri universum vivus vici
...to what end? VICTORY!

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#415729 - 03/13/10 09:04 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: ROA]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1810
Loc: Denmark
I'm gonna go with Reverend Strongbone here.

Often we see people come in here saying "I'm not gonna follow this law because it is unfair/stupid/keeps me from doing what I want", and in this case it seems the girl is doing the right thing, trying to change the rules.

I've also noted that both girls are seeking an education, i.e. they seem not to be loosers who whine about their lot in life, but people interested in making a contribution to society.

Also it seems that their choice of clothes suggest that they are keeping within the general aesthetic of the event with formal attire.

So, it seems that they are reasonable people wanting to be treated equally with their fellow students except for one fairly minor issue in my view.

The sooner we get done with the whole gay rights thing, the better - they need to be productive members of society, educated, married, taxpayers, soldiers and what have you, just like the rest of us, so that they can't pull the "oppressed" card.

I think my country has pretty much gotten there. It's more than ten years since the queen had openly gay MP's attend formal dinners at the castle and one of the mayors of Copenhagen is an openly gay actor. He wasn't able to pull the gay card last time he fucked up smile
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#415732 - 03/13/10 09:49 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: verszou]
Ms. Harlot Offline


Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 49
Loc: Austin, TX
I agree with Reverend Strongbone as well. Honestly, how many of us would say that Rosa Parks was an idiot for not getting off her lazy ass? There was more to the notion than not wanting to get off her seat, and there's more to this than a dumb prom. I didn't go to mine, I found it to be a stupid ritual, but I understand her mindset.

But I also agree that the word "oppressed" has been used far too lightly lately, here in particular. Forgive me, maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see anywhere on the article where she was quoted describing herself with that term. To me, it was used by the journalist (or the OP) to pull in readers and possibly get a reaction. I guess it worked.

This was not oppression. She or her girlfriend were not denied something as important an education, the right to vote, or even the right to be homosexual. They were denied access to a meaningless prom, but it was still discrimination. I think she took the most logical steps, but the school's reaction was so extreme that nobody would've expected it. Now she's facing discrimination and bullying. I hope it turns out well for her.
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#415735 - 03/13/10 10:58 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Ms. Harlot]
ROA Offline


Registered: 04/20/06
Posts: 43
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: Ms. Harlot
I agree with Reverend Strongbone as well. Honestly, how many of us would say that Rosa Parks was an idiot for not getting off her lazy ass? There was more to the notion than not wanting to get off her seat, and there's more to this than a dumb prom. I didn't go to mine, I found it to be a stupid ritual, but I understand her mindset.

But I also agree that the word "oppressed" has been used far too lightly lately, here in particular. Forgive me, maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see anywhere on the article where she was quoted describing herself with that term. To me, it was used by the journalist (or the OP) to pull in readers and possibly get a reaction. I guess it worked.

This was not oppression. She or her girlfriend were not denied something as important an education, the right to vote, or even the right to be homosexual. They were denied access to a meaningless prom, but it was still discrimination. I think she took the most logical steps, but the school's reaction was so extreme that nobody would've expected it. Now she's facing discrimination and bullying. I hope it turns out well for her.


Ok, my use of the word “oppressed” was a bit of overkill. It was never used in the original article; I added it to the title for emphasis. When this situation is compared to say, work camps (as in Old_Pig's post) it doesn’t hold up very well. My writing tends to be a bit over dramatic at times; sometimes it makes sense, other times it doesn’t. I will try to use more accurate terms the next time I post an article. My apologies.

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#415736 - 03/13/10 11:10 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: ROA]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3401
By cancelling the prom the school is hoping she'll get harassed. No, she's not oppressed, we've cleared that up, but the administrators responsible for her education, and a safe environment, are manipulative. They must want her classmates to resent her; it will discourage her and future dissent.

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#415738 - 03/13/10 11:17 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: ROA]
MagdaGraham Offline
CoS Priestess

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 13369
Loc: Scotland
I wonder how much her "very supportive" parents have encouraged her to take this stand.
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#415743 - 03/13/10 12:21 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
JCLAG Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 1244
Your comments throughout this entire thread have been spot on.
Cheers!
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#415745 - 03/13/10 12:38 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8236
I wonder what would happen if she had her girlfriend show up dressed as a girl, then, when some of the straight girls dance together, as it often happens, go out and do the same. A little contrivance, instead of this all or nothing approach.

Two extreme positions butting heads produces a massive headache. Is a compromise not possible? You catch more flies with honey.

If someone is homosexual they are not striving to be different. They are just what they are.

Quite true. Some, however, have this in your face, militant attitude that creates animosity.

I also have to wonder what was omitted in the original article.
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#415752 - 03/13/10 01:51 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
Liberterius Offline


Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 241
Not completely sure about how proms are held in other english-speaking countries, though from what I hear they aren't nearly the "omfg im a princess get me a limo NAO and MOAR flowers we cant use the high school gym we need a HOTEL bwaaaaaa!" fiascoes that they are here in the good ol' USA.
Though I'll admit I did go to mine, and had a good time.

Anyway this story, I heard of it from a ACLU update, and it does disgust me. No, this isn't NEARLY oppression in the sense of gulags and exile to siberia and "white only" signs. But as someone said, in terms of what an American teenagers is likely to experience, this is really bad. I don't think shes being whiny at all. Who knows, maybe she is a spoiled whiner in real life, we don't know that, but what we do know is that: she wanted to go to prom with her girlfriend. The theocratic Confederate schoolboard wouldn't let her, and proceeded to alienate her from her classmates and effectively encourage bullying of her for it.

No offense, but I feel some of you not living in the US underestimate the homophobia here...granted I live in NY, have all my life so I have little firsthand experience of the Bible Belt region other than news stories like this. But it's bad...I fully stand with this girl and her rights, and fully against the schoolboard. Having legally and socially disadvantaged groups like this is bad because A: it's preventing people from being as happy and productive members of society as they could, and B: it allows groups to play the victim/race/orientation/sock color card when it ISN'T justified. (Not the case here of course. I wouldnt call this an even metaphorical card game)

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#415753 - 03/13/10 02:00 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3546
Loc: Cowtown
Originally Posted By: Phineas
I wonder what would happen if she had her girlfriend show up dressed as a girl, then, when some of the straight girls dance together, as it often happens, go out and do the same. A little contrivance, instead of this all or nothing approach.

Two extreme positions butting heads produces a massive headache. Is a compromise not possible? You catch more flies with honey.

If someone is homosexual they are not striving to be different. They are just what they are.

Quite true. Some, however, have this in your face, militant attitude that creates animosity.

I also have to wonder what was omitted in the original article.


Hey, it's no fun "standing for something" if you aren't going to purposely attempt to piss off and annoy other people now, is it? grin

Some people feel that they cannot exercise their rights unless everyone else around them knows about it. Some people feel they are not "being themselves" unless they are attempting to shove their identity into someone else's face. It's no fun being different if you can't show it off.

The "wearing a tuxedo" thing was a huge red flag for me reading this. It's a lot of arrogant nonsense contrived to purposely stir up the shit pot, and nothing more. If they had simply shown up at the fucking dance without making a big deal out of it, no one would have said a damn thing. Instead, it had to be a flamboyant, out-of-the-closet production, meant to "create awareness"; a STATEMENT instead of a simple night at the prom.

If a vegetarian goes to a restaurant and orders a potato, nobody will say anything.

If a vegetarian goes to a restaurant and brags to everyone else about how eating steak is miserably evil, everyone is going to get pissed off and throw them out on their ass.

As far as rights, discrimination, etc..."Hell-O! Hell-O McFly!" What the hell else was to be expected?

This is just par for the course, same shit different pile, just another group of crybabies crying it out.

Big deal.

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#415754 - 03/13/10 02:36 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: TheDegenerate]
Liberterius Offline


Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 241
TheDegenerate I find you a little needlessly cruel here...

Sure, a vegetarian can go to a restaurant, get salad and a potato and no one says anything...but then, is anyone going to STOP her from ordering that potato?
My point is that there is very little cultural stigma or social discrimination against vegetarians, whereas there is against homosexuals. I understand your point as well; that people can go ridiculously out of their way to present their "identity" and all...but you're honestly blaming the victim. She should be allowed to go with a girl as a date, and wear a tux too if she feels like it; the school board has no right to get all pissy about something that causes no harm, isn't disruptive (unless THEY make it so) and is just a fun time.

Sexual orientation and dietary choices are different; you shouldn't get all preachy and holier-than-thou about either of em, but we all deserve freedom of choice in both, and it's prom, I mean let a girl have fun. In this case honestly I also think it IS a legitimate stand for rights: you can see, IN THIS CASE, and others (such as gay marriage still being illegal in most states, gay men not allowed to donate blood in many states) that gays are denied full and equal rights as everyone else.

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#415756 - 03/13/10 02:42 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Liberterius]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
As a homosexual male, I don't bother concerning myself with matters such as marriage or proms, because they really don't affect me personally. However, even though you'll most likely never spot me at a gay rights rally, I most certainly support such efforts from the side line.
_________________________

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#415757 - 03/13/10 02:46 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Liberterius]
Liberterius Offline


Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 241
Sorry for double post, but just to explain a little more on "exercising of rights":

Let's suppose it's 1960, Atlanta. Jim Crow still alive and well, much progress of integrating schools but still a hell of a lot of state-sponsored discrimination and societal hate. Klan running around lynching, cops turning a blind eye, etc.

And then let's suppose some African-Americans start a black pride group. Starts in just a church, but it grows, integrates unions, regular black citizens, even some sympathetic whites. And they go have a "black pride parade", write to the newspapers up north,; all around "go out of their way" to show that they are proud of who they are, angry at the denial of their rights, and won't stand for it anymore.
Should anyone honestly blame them, in that time, for "shoving their identity in others' faces," while governors stand in front of school-house doors to stop integration and the cops are bringing firehoses against peaceful protesters? I don't think you reasonably can.

Now, in 2010, if I saw black people doing a Black Panthers rally or crap like that in my city, I'd just be pissed off. Why? Because they have full and equal rights now, not to mention more than equal affirmative-action. Granted there's still societal bigotry to some extent, but that's nothing compared to 50 years ago, and there's certainly no "whites only" signs.

Homosexuals are in a similar position to blacks in the 50s and 60s. Granted it has improved tremendously since even 20 or 10 years ago, but there's still state discrimination against them. Point; I don't blame some degree of strong identification and pride for gays in the face of the bigotry they currently face.

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#415759 - 03/13/10 02:49 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Bill_M]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: Bill_M
I've always found it interesting that Mississippi and Alabama always end ranked at the bottom for education levels, and at the top for religious fervor.


Don't forget illiteracy rates and infant mortality! smile

Colorado's actually embroiled in a similar controversy right now. A lesbian couple tried to enroll their child at the local Catholic school, and the school turned them away, on the grounds that their "lifestyle" wasn't in line with the "values of the Archdiocese"--well, and since having to hear that every day would hurt the child's feelings, turning the family away is the only genuinely loving, caring, Christian thing to do, you know, and it's in everyone's interest, you see. (Because Heaven forbid we just give up the fag-bashing!)

It appears the lesbians themselves have decided to just drop the issue and take their business elsewhere--a very wise choice, in my estimation--but the debate rages on--and well it should, because these institutions should know that they are stubbornly standing on the wrong side of history, yet again.

You would think various parties and institutions that are still wiping the egg of their faces from Jim Crow, the Holocaust, the Inquisition, and other such events would be willing and able to read the writing on the wall, and step out of the path of the next high-flying omelette. But, I guess not.

Words like "oppressed" and "victim" make me gag, too, because they do tend to be tossed around rather lightly by total whiners who think oppression is being told that they can't smoke pot in front of the library. However, I think institutions, people, and groups that pull this kind of bigoted or bureaucratic shit (whatever you want to call it) DO deserve to be taken to task for it.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#415760 - 03/13/10 02:49 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Zaftig]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Quote:
By cancelling the prom the school is hoping she'll get harassed. No, she's not oppressed, we've cleared that up, but the administrators responsible for her education, and a safe environment, are manipulative.

How is sabotaging the safety of someone's environment NOT oppression?

You don't have to get sent to Siberia to be oppressed. The USSR had massive resources to use to oppress its subjects. School administrations in small towns in Alabama do not. They will use the means at their disposal to similar ends: to demoralize and threaten people who do not fit their idea of how people should be.

Just because their means are more limited and the scope of their action is smaller, doesn't mean it's not in the same category.
_________________________
reprobate

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#415761 - 03/13/10 03:04 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Liberterius]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8236
Homosexuals are in a similar position to blacks in the 50s and 60s.

Utter nonsense. Anyone who was there during that time period knows it. Skin color is not the same as sexual orientation.

There is no historical comparison.

This is just another group that wants special rights, not equal rights.

Try and organize a straight parade, and have the attendees dress and behave as in a gay pride parade, and watch what happens. One group goes to jail for public lewdness, the other gets a police escort because they are exercising their "rights".

Total double standard. There is plenty of heterophobia to go around from the homosexual community, they are just as prejudiced and bigoted as the rest.
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#415763 - 03/13/10 03:10 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
Originally Posted By: Phineas
Total double standard. There is plenty of heterophobia to go around from the homosexual community, they are just as prejudiced and bigoted as the rest.


The only form of "heterophobia" I've ever encountered from gay males is their disgust with vaginas.
_________________________

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#415764 - 03/13/10 03:16 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
1) How are marriage, adoption, and child custody, for example, special rights?

2) Ever hear of Mardi Gras? Girls Gone Wild? Jersey Shore (well, or MTV in general)? Straight people have their outlets for acting horny and obnoxious, too.

3) Some straights attend pride parades, and some gays don't, and not all gays dress in leather and feathers and march down the sidewalk. I'm not sure how some people behave in that context should have any real bearing on whether or not the whole group should be allowed to adopt, marry, attend proms, attend schools, or what have you. Certainly, nobody's trying to stop the retards on MTV from having kids or getting married.

4) If people were shutting down entire events just to keep me out, or passing bills to actively prevent me from marrying, I might resent them a bit, too. Wondering why some homosexuals are sore on heteros is like wondering why Satanists aren't in love with Kirk Cameron.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#415766 - 03/13/10 03:26 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: TrojZyr]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8236
Mardi Gras does not count. This is an event that is all inclusive and does not celebrate one particular group. I purposely stated gay pride parades - a live event conducted in public, celebrating homosexuality. Hardly a comparison to some TV show.

Marriage, etc. are privileges established by societies. They are not rights. Groups such as these attempt to portray them as rights, though. That's where the commotion starts.

I don't have to wonder why some homo's hate straights. I can see it for myself. I can see the prejudice some hetero's have for the gays, and I can also see it happening the other way around.

If you can have gay pride, why not straight pride.
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#415767 - 03/13/10 03:26 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
Maupassant's Offline


Registered: 01/08/10
Posts: 35
Originally Posted By: Phineas
This is just another group that wants special rights, not equal rights.


The right to go to a prom wearing a tuxedo is hardly special.

If the herd thinks you're a lesbian weirdo, it's their problem. But when they try to impose that way of thinking onto your life, it becomes your problem. That girl had enough balls to stand up for herself showing courage and at least some sense of self-value.

Another fact is that there definitely is a tendency among minorities to play victim, because so-called political correctness awards such behaviour.

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#415769 - 03/13/10 03:39 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Maupassant's]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8236
The right to go to a prom wearing a tuxedo is hardly special.

If the herd thinks you're a lesbian weirdo, it's their problem. But when they try to impose that way of thinking onto your life, it becomes your problem


But its perfectly alright for her to impose her standards and aesthetics on them, eh? grin

Both groups are taking the wrong approach.

The girl should be allowed to attend the prom, with her friend, and the school should be allowed to enforce a dress code.

_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#415770 - 03/13/10 03:57 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
Maupassant's Offline


Registered: 01/08/10
Posts: 35
And how do you think she was trying to impose a sense of aesthetics on the school?
Homophobia is, at least in theory, not a standard in american schools, so by planning to go to a prom with another girl she wasn't really imposing anything. Her liberties would not affect anyone - it's not like the u.s. citizens have never seen a girl in a tux before.

Plus by wearing a tux she actually was in line with the schools dress code :- )

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#415771 - 03/13/10 04:02 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Maupassant's]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8236
The manner in which she has gone about this. That is what shows it.

Seems to me she is more interested in raising an issue than attending the prom.

Life is not a free for all. You do not get to do everything you want, whenever and wherever you want, with whomever you want, dressed as you want.

Attending a prom is a right? Who woulda thunk....

_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#415772 - 03/13/10 04:27 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10555
Loc: England
>> Seems to me she is more interested in raising an issue than attending the prom. <<


If the authorities hadn't been challenged on these issues homosexuals would still be being thrown into prison.

>> Life is not a free for all. You do not get to do everything you want, whenever and wherever you want, with whomever you want, dressed as you want. <<

Absolutely. But when the criteria levelled against a law abiding citizen is a moral judgement stifling personal freedom it has to be challenged.

I see no signs of her trying to force her choices on anyone else. Simply standing up and challenging their rulings against her.

It's simple: homosexuals are discriminated against because of underlying Christian values in society. Like a lot of things. And this is exactly the kind of thing The Church of Satan stands in opposition to.



_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#415773 - 03/13/10 04:30 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
Maupassant's Offline


Registered: 01/08/10
Posts: 35
Originally Posted By: Phineas
The manner in which she has gone about this. That is what shows it.

Seems to me she is more interested in raising an issue than attending the prom.


That may be true, yet she hasn't gone about it any worse than the school did by cancelling the whole prom...

Originally Posted By: Phineas
Life is not a free for all. You do not get to do everything you want, whenever and wherever you want, with whomever you want, dressed as you want.


Right, but you try to get what you can. And her claim certainly isn't outrageous.

Originally Posted By: Phineas
Attending a prom is a right? Who woulda thunk....


While it may not be one of the basic human rights, denying it to a specific person still requires a good reason.

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#415774 - 03/13/10 04:45 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Liberterius]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3546
Loc: Cowtown
Originally Posted By: Liberterius
TheDegenerate I find you a little needlessly cruel here...

Sure, a vegetarian can go to a restaurant, get salad and a potato and no one says anything...but then, is anyone going to STOP her from ordering that potato?
My point is that there is very little cultural stigma or social discrimination against vegetarians, whereas there is against homosexuals. I understand your point as well; that people can go ridiculously out of their way to present their "identity" and all...but you're honestly blaming the victim. She should be allowed to go with a girl as a date, and wear a tux too if she feels like it; the school board has no right to get all pissy about something that causes no harm, isn't disruptive (unless THEY make it so) and is just a fun time.

Sexual orientation and dietary choices are different; you shouldn't get all preachy and holier-than-thou about either of em, but we all deserve freedom of choice in both, and it's prom, I mean let a girl have fun. In this case honestly I also think it IS a legitimate stand for rights: you can see, IN THIS CASE, and others (such as gay marriage still being illegal in most states, gay men not allowed to donate blood in many states) that gays are denied full and equal rights as everyone else.


I'm not blaming the victim.

I am "blaming" both parties. The "victim" for underestimating the bigots against her, and the uptight stick-in-the-ass prudes for canceling the dance altogether over a couple of lesbians.

Yes. Gays are denied rights. Blacks were denied rights.

Boo-fucking-hoo.

I am not saying I AGREE, at all. All I am saying is, these people who act so "shocked and alarmed" when they are discriminated against, are obviously missing a part of the picture. I am completely and utterly AGAINST determining peoples lifestyles; I find it absurd, and completely ridiculous. But this is not an isolated situation, it has happened before and it will happen again; and the administration of this school are the ones setting the rules in terms of sexual conduct, dress code, etc. If it is against their dress code that broads can't wear suits, that is up to them.

This is not, to me, about what is "right" or what is "fair." It is simply about what IS.

Someone decided to "fight the power", and the power found a way for them to lose.

Is the girl going to lose her hands over this? Maybe she won't be making as many friends among the shallow, pathetic single-celled life-forms that she goes to school with. When she is at the forefront of a gay pride parade years later, and all the bullshit and hypocrisy of the public school system is behind her, if anything, this experience will empower her feet-in-the-dirt, rock solid ideologies. She will be more of a hard-nosed dyke than ever, and hopefully, (and this IS my hope,) will have a chance to shit on the heads of her oppressors someday with a real victory.

And if her victory happens this time, and she does get to go to the dance in the end, then good for her! But it should not be EXPECTED. Just like she should not have expected that asking "can my girlfriend come to the dance and where a tuxedo?" to a bunch of backwater stiffs would have gone over well.

Reality sucks some times, but at the very least, it is consistent. If everyones idealistic fantasies came true ALL the time, nobody would be able to bitch; and with some people, that's what they do best. Life is cruel, a girl can't go to the prom, but they didn't put her up against a wall and blow her head off today.

(EDIT: This post came off more abrasive than I had thought...not trying to offend anyone here, I obviously have nothing against gays, or blacks, or penguins, or whatever group does not specifically define me. I know a lot of gays who simply love members of their own sex; and they despise the "movement" and identity that goes along with being a homosexual. Just like I know hispanics, asians, natives, and all of that shit, who are not hung up on their own racial roots, and who are generally annoyed by the people screaming "OPPRESSION!" from the rooftops. When we talk in public about these issues, it's only stuck-up, arrogant white people who get offended at remarks like "chink" and "fag", even if the person I am talking to happens to be one of them! Funny how that works.)


Edited by TheDegenerate (03/13/10 04:50 PM)

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#415775 - 03/13/10 04:49 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: TheDegenerate]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10555
Loc: England
>> This is not, to me, about what is "right" or what is "fair." It is simply about what IS. <<


The girl is only 18. She's still learning about how the world will view and treat her.

Wisdom will come to her through these experiences.
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#415776 - 03/13/10 04:53 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3546
Loc: Cowtown
Originally Posted By: Rev_Strongbone
>> This is not, to me, about what is "right" or what is "fair." It is simply about what IS. <<


The girl is only 18. She's still learning about how the world will view and treat her.

Wisdom will come to her through these experiences.


Fine.

Once again, I am not blaming her. Maybe she shouldn't have "known better".

This is all part of the learning process, is it not? At the very least, hopefully she will take something away from this.

(Rhetorical question. I am agreeing with your statement, basically.)


Edited by TheDegenerate (03/13/10 04:53 PM)

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#415777 - 03/13/10 04:54 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
this is exactly the kind of thing The Church of Satan stands in opposition to.

Agreed.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#415778 - 03/13/10 05:43 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8236
Were talking about a prom, not some egregious act of violence, etc.

The school is wrong for denying her the opportunity to attend based on religious grounds. The school, however, (teachers, parents)is entitled to develop the standards and parameters of how to dress at these events. If they want all sorts of switch around manner of outfits they can hold a masquerade ball.

I will be interested in seeing how the court rules on this business of forcing the school to host an event.

In fact, as it has happened in other schools, someone else could host it. The article mentions something about this. But, it seems that raising an issue is far more important than actually having the prom, so there they are, going to court, polarizing both sides even further.

As I stated, the article doesn't paint an entire picture. I would like to see a point by point description of how it all unfolded, with more details.

"The fact that this will help people later on, that's what's helping me to go on."

Aren't we the noble martyr... vomit
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#415779 - 03/13/10 06:18 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Quaark]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3961
Loc: The Deep South
Oh, c'mon, you are making me blush.
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#415781 - 03/13/10 07:01 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: ROA]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3961
Loc: The Deep South
Ok. Let's take the whole story into a different context to explain my point.

Let's say I'm a furry. That's the life style and sexual orientation I chose for myself and I'm pretty proud of it.

Now let's say I want to go into a party wearing a dog costume, but the party organizers think that is not the appropriate attire.

My options are:

1-Adapt for a day and dress as everyone else.

2-Organize my own furry party where everyone can be dressed in animal suits.

3-Complain my rights are being violated and sue the party organizers.

Personally I would do 1 and 2.

I can say I was born a furry and that I have a right to be proud of it. But I can't expect everyone to be open minded about it. Whatever I like it or not, there are people who will feel uncomfortable with my costume. To expect the opposite would be solipsistic.

As I said before, I’m not siding with the school. Canceling the party is obviously a move oriented to isolate the lesbian girl and put the rest of the students against her. Perhaps she should have found more creative ways to go around the rules, instead of butting heads with the authorities.

But now it is too late and both sides blew the issue out of proportion.
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#415783 - 03/13/10 07:07 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Old_Pig]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
Originally Posted By: Old_Pig

Let's say I'm a furry. That's the life style and sexual orientation I chose for myself and I'm pretty proud of it.


"Furry" is a fetish, not a sexual orientation. Homosexuality is certainly not a choice (unless someone is just playing around, in which case they aren't really homosexual).
_________________________

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#415785 - 03/13/10 07:46 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: M.D. Roche]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3961
Loc: The Deep South
Originally Posted By: MALFORM
Originally Posted By: Old_Pig

Let's say I'm a furry. That's the life style and sexual orientation I chose for myself and I'm pretty proud of it.


"Furry" is a fetish, not a sexual orientation. Homosexuality is certainly not a choice (unless someone is just playing around, in which case they aren't really homosexual).


That a matter or personal opinion. Who is to say my “furriness” is less important to me that homosexuality is for a gay person?

Whether homosexuality is a learned behavior or birth condition is still an unsolved question. I have seen examples of both.

Personally I think each individual person is different. Generalizations rarely work in real life.

But it is irrelevant to this topic, I was using the "furry" as a metaphor to illustrate the point.
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#415786 - 03/13/10 08:38 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: M.D. Roche]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
Actually I disagree on both counts.

Clinical fetishes are at least as "involuntary" as homosexuality. I have a single clinical fetish (though not as pronounced as really severe cases) and I can attest that it is not something you really get to choose or change.

I also believe homosexuality takes multiple forms, but the most pronounced type would pretty much just qualify as a clinical fetish for the same sex. It just so happens that it's a clinical fetish that may require major adjustments in lifestyle to accomodate.

This isn't to deride homosexuality, and in fact I believe there are homosexuals who would agree with me.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#415788 - 03/13/10 08:54 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: Phineas
Mardi Gras does not count. This is an event that is all inclusive and does not celebrate one particular group. I purposely stated gay pride parades - a live event conducted in public, celebrating homosexuality. Hardly a comparison to some TV show.


But, it proves the point that people of all sexes and all sexual orientations can be obnoxious--which, I gathered, is/was the main complaint about gay pride parades.

Quote:
Marriage, etc. are privileges established by societies. They are not rights. Groups such as these attempt to portray them as rights, though. That's where the commotion starts.


Well, if you want to really split hairs, all rights are privileges. All rights can conceivably be rescinded or blocked at any time, by someone who was the wherewithal and the power to do so. Doesn't mean that's a good or desirable situation for the rest of us.

And, is there any good, sensible, or productive reason to block law-abiding people from exercising this privilege, anyway? "You have buttsex, and I hate buttsex," "Jesus told me so," and "Some of ya'll wear assless chaps to your own parties, clubs, and get-togethers, and that makes me feel icky," don't quite cut the mustard, argument-wise.

And, back the particular subject at hand, at a practical level, I think the school's time and energy just would've been much better spent on other things---but, no, they had to get morally righteous and control-happy, and punch the tar baby. A one-evening molehill has now become a year-long mountain for all involved.

Quote:
If you can have gay pride, why not straight pride.


Because people don't see a need for it. The world isn't pushing on them, so they don't feel a desire to push back.

If straights felt marginalized, oppressed, threatened, ignored, or pushed aside, there probably would be straight pride clubs and parades.

In areas where white people feel pushed aside and marginalized, voila, you find white pride and white power movements and clubs.

Gay pride will cease to be en vogue, I imagine, when gays feel they've been fully integrated into society and the market.

Gay pride is largely (though certainly not entirely) the fault of fundamentalist Christians, in my estimation.

Originally Posted By: Rev Strongbone
Absolutely. But when the criteria levelled against a law abiding citizen is a moral judgement stifling personal freedom it has to be challenged.

I see no signs of her trying to force her choices on anyone else. Simply standing up and challenging their rulings against her.

It's simple: homosexuals are discriminated against because of underlying Christian values in society. Like a lot of things. And this is exactly the kind of thing The Church of Satan stands in opposition to.


Precisely. Exactly. Well said.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#415789 - 03/13/10 09:12 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

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Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
Marriage, etc. are privileges established by societies. They are not rights.

This is not the foundation of a free society!

Everything we assume to be rights could conceivably be taken away by force. That does not make this a good foundation for justice.

Even if it's true (and I agree that it is), that's not the framework the US works with. The term "rights" in US nomenclature would refer to any privilege you are entitled to under the system of philosophical justice outlined in our supreme legal documents. Under the spirit of those documents, to allow one group privileges denied to another is not kosher.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#415790 - 03/13/10 09:20 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
TrojZyr Offline
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Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
Marriage, etc. are privileges established by societies. They are not rights.

This is not the foundation of a free society!

Everything we assume to be rights could conceivably be taken away by force. That does not make this a good foundation for justice.


Precisely.

And, people here certainly don't shrug about rights just being privileges when the issue on the table is, say, gun control, or socialized medicine, or what televisions or cars we can buy, or where we can smoke, drink, or text. I don't see how gun rights are any more or less real or relevant than marriage/relationship rights, in the end.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#415791 - 03/13/10 09:39 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: TrojZyr]
Phineas Offline
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Posts: 8236
I don't see how gun rights are any more or less real or relevant than marriage/relationship rights, in the end.

That may be your opinion, it does not change the fact that one is stipulated under the Bill of Rights, the others are not.

That is the difference.

All societies have boundaries. Free societies included.

I say the little girl should have just shown up at the prom, instead of becoming a pawn to the ACLU, who are asserting this is a First Amendment issue. So now going to the prom is an issue of free speech.....

But whats done is done. This is now going to play out in the courts, and the animosities will just rise, and one side will claim victory and the other will say "See, we told you about these people".

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"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

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#415792 - 03/13/10 09:44 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
Liberterius Offline


Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 241
Sure, we can debate natural rights; (personally I'm not sure they exist) you either have rights or you don't depending on whether someone more powerful with a gun, usually the government, allows them. Is that a reason not to grant those rights...?
I hardly see why.
Maybe we're not offending the Universe, or God, or Invisible Pink Unicorn, but WE can just grant rights to each other because...it's right, and allows for an all-along more productive society. Not to mention it's a safeguard for yourself if future oppression is leveled against you.

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#415793 - 03/13/10 09:57 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

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Posts: 10098
On the one hand I'm inclined to agree that the original suit was frivolous (she can't wear a tux? Who the fuck cares, that's not even integral to being a lesbian is it?), but the school responded with an astonishingly asshole move by cancelling the dance.

On the other, why should we mind that she does this? So it pisses off some local Christians...fine by me. I realize we do not want to portray ourselves as exclusively anti-Christian but we are anti-Christian.

The girl is probably young and foolish but then again, the real foolishness is that this is even an issue. She's in high school and gets at least a partial pass, most people do at least a few stupid things at that age (and most of us don't do something newsworthy), but the school district has acted far more immaturely, and presumably it's run by folks who should know better and do not get a free pass.
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"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#415794 - 03/13/10 10:07 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
NapalmNick Offline
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Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2127
Quote:
Everything we assume to be rights could conceivably be taken away by force. That does not make this a good foundation for justice.

Even if it's true (and I agree that it is), that's not the framework the US works with. The term "rights" in US nomenclature would refer to any privilege you are entitled to under the system of philosophical justice outlined in our supreme legal documents. Under the spirit of those documents, to allow one group privileges denied to another is not kosher.

Yes. I too agree, that what the USA defines as rights are objectively little more than privileges.

But that does not diminish the subjective value we have attributed to such "rights". The United States was* unique in that it defines rights as not coming from God but directly from the state. Which is what makes this farce even more laughable. This is about a bunch of bigoted assholes doing something they think pleases their God. Fuck them. Philosophically our government IS at odds with them.

I'll concede that the word "oppressed" has been mis-used. And that the girl in question could have planned things better.

But I maintain my original statement. All of those bigoted assholes can go fuck themselves.

*I say "was" here because now it is not the only nation to define rights in such a manner.
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#415795 - 03/13/10 10:10 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
TrojZyr Offline
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Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: Phineas

That may be your opinion, it does not change the fact that one is stipulated under the Bill of Rights, the others are not.


True. Though, Bill of Rights also states that citizens have other rights not addressed or described in the Bill of Rights per se. (Not to mention, one could use the First Amendment to argue in favor of crossdressing--among countless other things.)

And, people on this board certainly don't limit their discussions and complaints about politics to matters related to the Bill of Rights.

Quote:
All societies have boundaries. Free societies included.


Absolutely--and well they should.

But, problems arise when those boundaries become arbitrary, unjust, hurtful, or counterproductive. Any ol' boundaries do not a free, just, and productive society make.

Well, and in a healthy society, individuals have a right to create and enforce personal boundaries, and operate within a personal sphere. It goes both ways.

Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
The girl is probably young and foolish but then again, the real foolishness is that this is even an issue. She's in high school and gets at least a partial pass, most people do at least a few stupid things at that age (and most of us don't do something newsworthy), but the school district has acted far more immaturely, and presumably it's run by folks who should know better and do not get a free pass.


Exactly.

If it had been me, I would not have trolled the school by dressing in a potentially provocative manner, because I would've assumed that my choice of a date was going to ruffle enough feathers. If it had been me counseling a young person, I would've recommended that they not rock the boat more than necessary--bring your date, absolutely, but keep a low profile.

BUT, young people often do trollish, dramatic, extreme, provocative, immature, and/or rebellious things, and as adults, we need to maintain our composure and resist the urge to wrassle with pigs.

From there, there is certainly nothing wrong with a woman wearing a tuxedo---nobody bleeds, nobody dies. It's stupid to get upset about it. It's stupider still to try to forbid it. It's stupidest of all to cancel a whole event over it.

AND, anyone with any street savvy or PR smarts should know the kinds of cases and controversies that draw in the ACLU and the media. That's why I called it "punching a tar baby."

The school is the more immature and obnoxious party here, by a landslide.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#415796 - 03/13/10 10:11 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Ms. Harlot Offline


Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 49
Loc: Austin, TX
People at that age are overly eager to start a revolution at the slightest show of discrimination or something that is against their own values. It's not just the homos, it's all groups at that age who seek the attention that martyrdom and activism bring.

High school Xtians picket clinics to end abortion, teen gays sue their bible thumping schools, and clueless young Feminists sign petitions to finally put an end to women's suffrage.

I've watched protests orchestrated by high school and college students that have made no sense. They didn't even fully understand the issue (new immigration laws at the time) they were protesting against. They were all just happy to be there, "making a difference" and taking pictures to show off on their Facebook pages.

In this particular case, yes, there is a hint of martyrdom, but it was sort of forced on her. Yes, there was...

At least one supporter has offered to help McMillen and her classmates hold an alternate prom.


...but that didn't come up until the prom was canceled, which caused her to get harassed. There was a lot of money put into that prom, but do you think the school would have released those funds to the alternate prom?

Essentially, the school would have cheated the students out of that money, so it's not just the girl suffering from an injustice. The school deserves to get sued, if not for discrimination, then for the money.
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#415799 - 03/13/10 10:38 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Ms. Harlot]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

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Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
Yes.

Also I should point out that it has been repeatedly and expensively demonstrated that school dress codes are always a violation of Constitutional rights, and most halfway savvy school officials will tell you this. Yet a many schools still waste taxpayer money trying to enforce them. For what? To spare the innocent children the sight of someone crossdressing, or wearing a goddamn rock concert shirt to school? Or forcing kids to shave? I repeat: who the fuck cares? Is it worth wasting public money to try to force kids to look a certain way? It certainly isn't worth MY money.

But as you state, the real travesty here is that they would pull such a shitty stunt as cancelling the dance just to spite everyone because they were wrong. Aw, pobricitos got their ass handed to them in court so they're taking their ball and going home. That's real fucking grown up of them, I'm sure it sets a fine example for the youth.
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"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#415800 - 03/13/10 10:44 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
TrojZyr Offline
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Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
I repeat: who the fuck cares? Is it worth wasting public money to try to force kids to look a certain way? It certainly isn't worth MY money.


As Dr. Phil often asks---"Would you rather be RIGHT, or HAPPY?"

In these cases, the schools demonstrate that they would rather be RIGHT, and everybody pays (in more ways than one).
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#415801 - 03/13/10 10:57 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
M.D. Roche Offline
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Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
Does it really cost extra tax dollars to enforce a dress code?

I also don't see how a dress code violates any Constitutional rights.
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#415802 - 03/13/10 11:02 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: M.D. Roche]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

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Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
1) Yes, in court costs it amounts to millions. Nevermind the time wasted even contemplating such foolery, all of which is of course paid time.
2) Courts have ruled on countless occasions that it violates the First Amendment via right to free speech extending to right to dress in any manner one chooses. This is in addition to other cases ruling that clothing is a form of free speech in particular when worn on public property (which includes schools).

Private schools MAY institute a dress code via the rights of private property. Public schools may not. Which is exactly as it should be.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#415803 - 03/13/10 11:08 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: M.D. Roche]
Phineas Offline
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Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8236
_________________________
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"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#415804 - 03/13/10 11:10 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
TrojZyr Offline
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Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje

2) Courts have ruled on countless occasions that it violates the First Amendment via right to free speech extending to right to dress in any manner one chooses. This is in addition to other cases ruling that clothing is a form of free speech in particular when worn on public property (which includes schools).


To say nothing of those clothes or accessories that are actually religious or political in nature.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#415805 - 03/13/10 11:18 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: TrojZyr]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

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Posts: 10098
My high school explicitly forbade anything whatsoever that contained "Satanic" connotations, from pentagrams to Marilyn Manson t-shirts.

Frankly, turning the other cheek is for the cowardly dogs. My parents were not supportive of my choices and there was no sense in trying to fight this, but if my own child had to go up against such things, I would back him all the way. Martyr my ass, make the other man pay and show them that you were the wrong kid to fuck with.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#415806 - 03/13/10 11:24 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
M.D. Roche Offline
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Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
Interesting. I always thought dress codes sucked, but I didn't think it went any deeper than that.

I knew someone in high school who frequently wore an Alien Sex Fiend t-shirt. Every day he wore it to school he'd get called to the principal's office and was forced to turn his shirt inside out. Who would have known he could have hired a lawyer and sued their asses?

I love America.
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#415808 - 03/13/10 11:31 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: M.D. Roche]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

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Posts: 10098
Just to make it clear, minors cannot independently raise suit in most cases. He would have required the cooperation of his parents to file a suit, which is why so many dress codes continue unchallenged.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#415809 - 03/13/10 11:36 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
M.D. Roche Offline
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Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
Not to mention a lot of kids--especially the ones I went to school with--and their families are too poor to afford an attorney.


Edited by MALFORM (03/13/10 11:42 PM)
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#415816 - 03/14/10 06:30 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: TrojZyr]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 981
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: TrojZyr
From there, there is certainly nothing wrong with a woman wearing a tuxedo---nobody bleeds, nobody dies. It's stupid to get upset about it.


One observation I’d like to make about this cross dressing compliant (assuming that this is a public school that we are talking about), is that I seriously doubt that every female student, on any given school day is wearing distinctly female garb (dresses and skirts).

Even if many jeans and shirts are specifically made for women nowadays, you at least have to acknowledge that they are heavily influenced by clothing that was once generally considered men’s. And oftentimes the clothing can be even more sexually ambiguous than that. Although I realize that there are often higher standards for formal wear; when dealing with teenagers and at this time and in this culture, I fail to see the point of even making such a distinction. In a way, you could argue that female students constantly cross-dress everyday.
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#415829 - 03/14/10 11:12 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Old_Pig]
Quaark Offline

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Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8697
Pigs can blush?

Photos or it never happened!

wink
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#415831 - 03/14/10 11:41 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: John Prophet]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1810
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: John Prophet
In a way, you could argue that female students constantly cross-dress everyday.


Great. Now I have to worry about being turned on by a crossdresser as well.

grin
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While having never invented a sin, I'm trying to perfect several.

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#415833 - 03/14/10 11:50 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: verszou]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 981
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: verszou
Great. Now I have to worry about being turned on by a crossdresser as well.

Of course my real purpose behind that post was just to stick that idea in your head. grin
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#415862 - 03/14/10 07:53 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
TrojZyr Offline
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Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
My high school explicitly forbade anything whatsoever that contained "Satanic" connotations, from pentagrams to Marilyn Manson t-shirts.

Frankly, turning the other cheek is for the cowardly dogs. My parents were not supportive of my choices and there was no sense in trying to fight this, but if my own child had to go up against such things, I would back him all the way. Martyr my ass, make the other man pay and show them that you were the wrong kid to fuck with.


If my kid were in this situation--and provided he wasn't acting up or acting out otherwise, and trying to use "fighting the power" as an excuse--I would also stand behind him 100%.

But, I'd also make sure he at least halfway-understood what he was getting into, and what he potentially had to lose or gain.

Well, and to pedal backwards a bit...

I got so involved in the whole "rights are all just dust in the wind" philosophical discussion that I forgot to ask...

In what way is marriage a "privilege," anyway?

As I understand it, a privilege is typically something one earns, and can lose, if one's performance falls short of expectations, whereas rights are things that cannot be rescinded as easily, if at all, because they are not granted on the basis of good behavior, hard work, or the like.

Under that definition, at least, marriage is a legal right, and not a legal privilege, because even people who haven't done a thing to earn it (at least in my view) can still run off to Vegas for a shotgun wedding.

Can anyone think of any laws that block heterosexual adults from marrying other heterosexual adults? I can't, offhand.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#415865 - 03/14/10 08:02 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Ms. Harlot]
SINClair Offline


Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 320
Loc: Europe
They have interfered against their right to freedom and that is indeed oppression.

I agree with Rev. Strongbone as well, it is little acts such as these that slowly shape great changes.

And I too disagree with the Pig (as I generally strongly disagree with his opinions on any and every subject, if not %100, %99.9 of the time) as he might have thought differently if the story was about a Satanist being denied entry to a given social event, for wearing a Baphomet necklace.

If only there were more people with enough guts to stand up and fight for their rights.

I would also say it is obvious that this is not about the stupid prom, it is about something much bigger indeed, but I won't say it is obvious, as some of the opinions in this thread alone, makes crystal clear, how subjective the obvious really is.
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#415869 - 03/14/10 08:29 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: TrojZyr]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
Actually yes, it is possible to block the marriage of heterosexual adults. Besides the obvious and well known laws prohibiting "special cases" such as incest, bigamy, etc, you can also be denied a marriage license for any number of reasons, including simply getting married too damn many times.

However, that doesn't really apply to any more homosexual relationships than it does heterosexual.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#415870 - 03/14/10 08:30 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: SINClair]
TrojZyr Offline
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Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: SINClair
And I too disagree with the Pig, as he might have thought differently if the story was about a Satanist being denied entry to a given social event, for wearing a Baphomet necklace.

If only there were more people with enough guts to stand up and fight for their rights.

I would also say it is obvious that this is not about the stupid prom, it is about something much bigger, but I won't say it is obvious, as some of the opinions in this thread alone, makes crystal clear, how subjective the obvious really is.


I agree that it is, in this case, about something much larger than just a prom. We've crossed the Rubicon now.

You want to talk about subjectivity? I can actually imagine myself being less sympathetic towards a Satanist kid than a gay kid. Satanism is something one can practice and believe quite happily, effectively, and comfortably, alone and in secret--romance, sex, and love, not so much. Most people at least want to be able to bring their mate out in public!

Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
Besides the obvious and well known laws prohibiting "special cases" such as incest, bigamy, etc, you can also be denied a marriage license for any number of reasons, including simply getting married too damn many times.


Really? Incest and bigamy, of course, but can one really be denied a license of getting married too many times? I've never heard of that (though it does sound like a good idea--after all, the divorce rate for a third marriage is around 70%, so after a certain point, you might as well not bother).

Guess Liz Taylor had better watch herself wink.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#415871 - 03/14/10 08:34 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: SINClair]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3961
Loc: The Deep South
Originally Posted By: SINClair

And I too disagree with the Pig, as he might have thought differently if the story was about a Satanist being denied entry to a given social event, for wearing a Baphomet necklace.


Leave if to you to assume I would be so childishly biased.

My position would be exactly the same.

If a Satanist friend was stupid enough to get in such a ridiculous situation, I would advise him to hide his Baphomet under his shirt and I would probably remind him of a little thing named “counterproductive pride”.
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#415872 - 03/14/10 08:39 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: SINClair]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
I would have even less sympathy for someone who threw a hissy fit because they couldn't wear a Baphomet to school. Yes they should have a right to do it, but I hold Satanists to a higher standard than that, and one that puts themselves in the line of fire is on their own.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#415873 - 03/14/10 08:43 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Old_Pig]
SINClair Offline


Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 320
Loc: Europe
What is so stupid about wishing to wear a Baphomet necklace to attend a social event?? Not school, not the library, not the hospital, but a social event, a place and occasion designed for casual meeting. What's so stupid about that??
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#415874 - 03/14/10 08:50 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: SINClair]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
Are you going to get an undesired negative reaction by doing it?

Well, that would seem pretty stupid then.

If there's no negative reaction to the Baphomet or it's even deemed appropriate for the setting then...well, obviously. In fact this whole question is really obvious.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#415875 - 03/14/10 08:57 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: SINClair]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: SINClair
What is so stupid about wishing to wear a Baphomet necklace to attend a social event?? Not school, not the library, not the hospital, but a social event, a place and occasion designed for casual meeting. What's so stupid about that??


Depends on the event, first of all.

Second of all, what is allowed is not always advisable. Even if they can't actually stop you from wearing a Baphomet, they can still try to sabotage or hurt you in other ways. (It may not always be conscious, even.) 90% of the time, in my view, it's just not worth the headache.

Third of all, see my previous post.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#415881 - 03/14/10 11:08 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: TrojZyr]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8236
You left out the part about Satanism not demanding martyrdom. wink
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#415892 - 03/15/10 03:01 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
Mindmaster Offline


Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 8
It's just another attempt to add a particular religious dogma to a government institution. The idea that homosexuality is wrong is mostly a Christian view, but it extends into other unlikely places as well. See it is not the repression of the same sex that is the issue necessarily for really the women in question are not displaying affection in a Christian sanctioned manner!

My son recently received a suspension for kissing his girlfriend at recess. That wasn't enough they also decided to remove this girl from his class and force him to see a social worker for inappropriate sexual behavior! Perhaps something may happen more than a kiss for my son at some future date and time, but at age twelve a girlfriend is basically a good friend with hugging and kissing! I am aware of that, and my son is educated as to what behavior is socially appropriate for him at this time. Regardless, he is basically banned from having any contact with her for any reason. His level of affection is not improper for a properly educated Satanic household, but apparently this open display of love is too much for the bible thumping wizards at the local elementary school.

I asked the principal about why such extreme punishment for such a simple error. She replied, "It was going to go much further!" A thought I hardly can believe when the kid doesn't even have his manly voice yet.

Now this event first of all was in free time at recess and their school board disciplinary policy doesn't cover any event that isn't a hazard to the students or a disruption in class. Since our event occurred during their free time I highly doubt this was a disruption. Secondly, school board policies do not trump the US Constitution or the Bill of Rights and there are no exclusions of age in any rights mentioned. Any citizen of the US may associate with one another for any reason provided they are causing no harm to the public in doing so and preventing that is another civil rights violation. Forcing my child to subscribe to your religious doctrine through positive reinforcement of your beliefs is yet another violation of his rights. My child's moral and social acclimation is my duty thank you very much and I take it very seriously!

So, I now have asked them to reverse all of their actions verses my child and promised them legal action if they somehow cannot understand their error. You have to take every opportunity to put these people in their place. You cannot call yourself a Satanist and allow the innocent to be pushed around by these mentally-challenged experts of self-denial. I sincerely hope that this young lady gets to attend her prom with whomever she wishes. I imagine it would be much more controversial if it were a threesome, but it's easier to pander to the homophobes via the news media spin machine isn't it?

Hail Satan!


Edited by Mindmaster (03/15/10 03:12 AM)

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#415905 - 03/15/10 08:20 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: Phineas
You left out the part about Satanism not demanding martyrdom. wink


That too. I'd even go as far as to say that Satanism actively discourages martyrdom, which is what really distinguishes it from countless other movements, ideologies and groups.

(Though, stepping into the limelight or a battleground doesn't necessarily entail, imply, or lead to martyrdom, mind you.)

Originally Posted By: Mindmaster
My son recently received a suspension for kissing his girlfriend at recess. That wasn't enough they also decided to remove this girl from his class and force him to see a social worker for inappropriate sexual behavior! Perhaps something may happen more than a kiss for my son at some future date and time, but at age twelve a girlfriend is basically a good friend with hugging and kissing!


That's just ridiculous! I'm very sorry to hear that.

Can you tell if these administrators really are "bible-thumping wizards" (I like that image) who are just plain squeamish about sex, or are these perhaps the ultra-politically correct types who are all whipped up about "sexual harassment?" Or, are they the craven, humorless pencil-pushers who are just trying at all costs to avoid lawsuits brought by the aforementioned politically-correct and ultra-sensitive types? In my experience, a lot of the "sexual harrassment" and "zero-tolerance" policies have been dreamed up by the two latter types of bureaucrat.

_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#415906 - 03/15/10 08:24 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10555
Loc: England
>> You left out the part about Satanism not demanding martyrdom.<<


But let's not also forget that Anton LaVey stated:


"The Church of Satan chooses active opposition."
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#415911 - 03/15/10 09:26 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: TrojZyr]
Mindmaster Offline


Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 8
Originally Posted By: TrojZyr


That's just ridiculous! I'm very sorry to hear that.

Can you tell if these administrators really are "bible-thumping wizards" (I like that image) who are just plain squeamish about sex, or are these perhaps the ultra-politically correct types who are all whipped up about "sexual harassment?" Or, are they the craven, humorless pencil-pushers who are just trying at all costs to avoid lawsuits brought by the aforementioned politically-correct and ultra-sensitive types? In my experience, a lot of the "sexual harrassment" and "zero-tolerance" policies have been dreamed up by the two latter types of bureaucrat.



You have to take it into context that my town has over fifteen churches and only eight-thousand people. smile To contrast where I grew up, which had twelve-thousand and four (which seems a more usual number, really.)

My sons public school apparently shares this playground with the Lutheran parochial school nearby and I have a feeling that has a lot to do with the treatment of my child in this case. The church in question is the largest one in the town, and likely many of the staff are residents of this town and part of that particular congregation. This is a small town, after all... We generally all go to the same places. I grew up in a similar sized town and most people were active in the larger established church as well with many who moved in converting to the new denomination.

Really, I would just be satisfied if they do not enforce their decision as it is not for my own cause that I toil. But, I really can't stand there and have their school administrators decide who my son is allowed to hang out with so long as he isn't making trouble. He was also suspended for lewd dancing once! He saw a Michael Jackson video on youtube and he likes to impersonate it. Apparently this was too much for them despite being so 1983 and probably within their own personal memory. They can't remember the time when that was cool and we were all trying to moonwalk!

I probably would have thrown this to the normal realm of school administrivia if the other incident didn't happen. I've talked to the mother of the girl as well, and they have been similarly heavy-handed in her case with other issues. Coincidentally, their family is Wiccan, but being dealt with the same. I haven't ruled out the possibility that they are aware of the girl's faith as they are a tad more open than we are. At that juncture they feel the need to do God's work of being a jackass to everyone else. Hopefully, my scolding letter will stir up a few pests so that I can apply the appropriate poison!

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#415937 - 03/15/10 12:11 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: ROA]
Alien Athena Offline


Registered: 03/12/10
Posts: 7
Loc: London
The Christian homophobes have done Miss Oppressed Lesbian a favour. The prom wouldn't have been as exciting as all this attention and publicity...

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#415954 - 03/15/10 04:10 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: TrojZyr]
SINClair Offline


Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 320
Loc: Europe
Exactly, depends on the event. To wear a Baphomet in public is not a stupid thing to do by default.
_________________________
"Wer Nichts Wagt, Kann Nichts Verlieren"

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#415956 - 03/15/10 04:31 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: ROA]
G.F.V. Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/31/04
Posts: 1948
Loc: NYC
High school proms are something that children (and adults, ranging from parents to the school teacher) put WAY too much credence into. It's nothing more or less than an overrated, overly glorified dance that is blown way out of proportion.

If people put THAT much credence into going to a high school dance where the parents of these students blow ridiculous amounts of money on dresses, tuxedos, fancy rent-a-cars, insanely fancy restaurant/ballrooms, then they really have no life to begin with.

The school is wrong for discriminating against the lesbian couple. But the lesbian student should have been aware that, in an environment of bigoted religious folks who can't seem to fathom that students would dare show up to their oh so sacred "prom" breaking traditional gender roles, what could she have possibly expected? And, as has been brought up before several times in this thread by many others, what was really more important to her: attending her prom, or making a statement?

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#415957 - 03/15/10 04:39 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: G.F.V.]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
I say they should have shown up wearing sandals, Indigo Girls t-shirts, fake mustaches, and strap-on dildos. To top it off, one of them could have carried a boom box and played "Come To My Window" by Melissa Etheridge.

Now THAT would have been a night to remember!
_________________________

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#415960 - 03/15/10 05:24 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: M.D. Roche]
Ms. Harlot Offline


Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 49
Loc: Austin, TX
Originally Posted By: MALFORM
I say they should have shown up wearing sandals, Indigo Girls t-shirts, fake mustaches, and strap-on dildos. To top it off, one of them could have carried a boom box and played "Come To My Window" by Melissa Etheridge.

Now THAT would have been a night to remember!


HEY! I'm find that incredibly offensive!

Not all lesbians wear strap ons, thank you very much...some us DO have to bottom, you know... wink
_________________________


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#415975 - 03/15/10 09:30 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Ms. Harlot]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
In regards to wearing a Baphomet in public:

Personally, I'm hesitant to wear a Baphomet medallion because I know that I'd constantly have to defend/explain myself to people who don't "get", or at least put up with juvenile remarks. I also wouldn't want anyone to pre-judge me more than they already do. I simply don't like to draw negative attention to myself.
_________________________

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#415976 - 03/15/10 09:45 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Unknown Offline


Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1644
Loc: 611 Calif. St.
I agree Reverend but when that opposition begins to place ones life in an uncomfortable situation and there's more shit than one can deal with then it's stupidity.

I think it just depends on the person to pick and choose their battles. If someone can actively oppose a situation and deal with the shit that flies with it in an intelligent manner then so be it.
_________________________
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Satanism Demands study and not worship!
http://compleatwitch.blogspot.com/

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-classical/

Avatar used with special permission from Reverend CoffinRust. www.coffinrust.com









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#416400 - 03/20/10 07:02 AM Ellen DeGeneres presents $30K to Mississippi Lesbian [Re: ROA]
Machismo Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: New Jersey
_________________________


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#416402 - 03/20/10 07:15 AM Re: Ellen DeGeneres presents $30K to Mississippi Lesbian [Re: Machismo]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Only $30k? That's pretty cheap advertising.
_________________________
"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin

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#416442 - 03/20/10 06:51 PM Re: Ellen DeGeneres presents $30K to Mississippi Lesbian [Re: Jack_Lantern]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
Yeah but when I was in high school I'd have kicked a lot of asses for a $30k check.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#416485 - 03/20/10 10:46 PM Re: Ellen DeGeneres presents $30K to Mississippi Lesbian [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Murkylight Offline


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Canada
I'm an old queen, born after the stilletoed drag queens made history at Stonewall and just around the time gay liberation was afoot. By the time I was in elementary school, a handful of people in my city held their first gay pride wearing paper bags on their heads.

I have never yet heard a queer ask the question, "Why isn't there a straight pride day?" That's because all the queers I know recognize that every day is straight pride day. What's more, they also know that they will be assumed straight unless they come out as queer. And if they do, they run some potentially significant risks. But if they stay in the closet, they will be cutting their lives in two and that can become rather strangulating. After all, when you love someone you don't often naturally take to hiding that. Unless you are furry.

For example, we don't see as much of that identity strangulation in het couples, do we? Look at all the het couples roaming around. They are everywhere! Shopping in stores. Doing business in banks. Holding hands. Kissing. Yeesh. And I can tell you right now, the jury is still out on whether being het is a choice or not. Personally, I hope it is as I would like nothing but to convert a few of you to the pink side. But had I known it was a choice, I and those I know might have saved ourselves a great deal of pain and suffering. Hell, we know that statistically, suicide rates are far more elevated for queer kids compared to straight kids. Perhaps telling them it is a choice would help them? Hmmmm...

But I'll tell you what, I have never passed for straight. Okay, maybe twice, and it gave me the absolute willies. I pushed the boundaries with simply being myself. I didn't have to go out of my way to make trouble. Boys at school threatened my life on a daily basis. I guess I might have been asking for it because I didn't wear the right clothing or working out or on the track team (damn, those guys were hot). But you know, there is only so much time in a day and I was already studying ballet.

My view: This young woman is a baby dyke. Perhaps we can say that the issue is not how she asked it, the tone of voice, the timing, the wording. We could say it's about the tuxedo and the girlfriend and the ignorant school. However, I'd say that the real issue is about her life and what she wants in it. And when she asks, she knows exactly what is going to happen. Of course she knows what is going to happen. She lives every day in this environment. (If only we could all move to the big city....wait, we've already done that). And she knows that if she doesn't ask, she won't be able to live with herself. So she has done the right thing for her and certainly for those like her. Some day, I believe she will see that she played an incremental part in making it safer to love. As everyone who comes out and stays out does.




Edited by Murkylight (03/20/10 10:51 PM)
_________________________
At a formal dinner party, the person nearest death should always be seated closest to the bathroom.

- George Carlin -

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#416501 - 03/21/10 12:13 AM Re: Ellen DeGeneres presents $30K to Mississippi Lesbian [Re: Murkylight]
Liberterius Offline


Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 241
Murkylight: glad we're getting more openly-gay opinion on here, specially someone with experience living as a homosexual such a bigoted society. As a borderline bisexual I can't say from personal experience of getting bullied/risk, but at my high school there were so pretty flauntingly gay d00dz, several of which I was friends with, and they never had huge problems that I'd seen. Though none of them kissed in public or went to prom together...hm.

Kewl with the 30K from Ellen, I fairly like her. (Ellen, not the girl. Not enough knowledge to judge there, though I'll say shes kidna cute) Shes reasonably funny, and seems like an actual sincere, "real," and thoughtful person, if a bit of a typical TV airhead at times. She seems to pay attention/think/read about the world, much better than can be said of most Hollywood celebrities.

My prediction of the court case: I can't really think of legally how any court in America could FORCE the school to hold prom. So sadly, nothing will happen. Regardless of them cancelling it for a horrendous reason, the administration can indeed cancel a social event if they feel like it...
but then, maybe there'll be something in the books/precedent of it being a tax-funded school (albeit not tax-funded prom...) and that they hence can't make decisions based on discrimination like that.
Then again, there could be the defense of "Oh it wasn't that shes lesbo, it's that she was causing a disruption to the fancy book learnin' environment round these parts!"

So actually I don't really have a solid prediction, but leaning towards that nothing will happen, except that IF they choose to host the prom, that they must allow her to show up with her girlfriend. But will they host the prom...hm...


Edited by Liberterius (03/21/10 12:14 AM)

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#416519 - 03/21/10 08:39 AM Re: Ellen DeGeneres presents $30K to Mississippi Lesbian [Re: Murkylight]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8236
I hope it is as I would like nothing but to convert a few of you to the pink side.

Interesting.

I thought gays didn't have an agenda, weren't at all interested in "converting" people. grin

I guess I was misinformed.....

_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#416520 - 03/21/10 08:57 AM Re: Ellen DeGeneres presents $30K to Mississippi Lesbian [Re: Murkylight]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8697
Your avatar was unacceptable, as the CoS does not condone illegal activity of any kind.

It has been removed.


Edited by Daark (03/21/10 09:02 PM)
_________________________
Helium II is a superfluid, a quantum mechanical state of matter with strange properties .

The thermal conductivity of helium II is greater than that of any other known substance, a million times that of helium I and hundred of times that of copper. This is because heat conduction occurs via a quantum mechanism.

Second sound is a quantum mechanical phenomenon in which heat transfer occurs by wave-like motion, rather than by the usual mechanism of diffusion. Heat takes the place of pressure in normal sound waves. This leads to very high thermal conductivity. It's known as "second sound" because the wave motion of heat is similar to the propagation of sound in air.

Sound waves are fluctuations in the density of molecules in a substance; second sound waves are fluctuations in the density of phonons. Second sound can be observed in any system in which most phonon-phonon collisions conserve momentum. This occurs in superfluids and in dielectric crystals when Umklapp scattering is small.

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#416692 - 03/23/10 03:52 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: ROA]
MagdaGraham Offline
CoS Priestess

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 13369
Loc: Scotland
_________________________
We are the makers of manners. (Shakespeare)

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3

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#416693 - 03/23/10 04:07 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: MagdaGraham]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
Quote:
She has appeared on the "The Early Show," "The Wanda Sykes Show" and "The Ellen DeGeneres Show" to talk about how she is fighting for tolerance. DeGeneres presented her with a $30,000 college scholarship from Tonic, a digital media company. A Facebook page set up by the ACLU for McMillen has over 400,000 fans.


Damn, it really pays to be a victim!

Hmmm... come to think of it, I wasn't allowed to get on the city bus earlier today. The driver said the bus was full, but I just know it was because I was wearing my trench coat! I demand justice!!! coopdevil
_________________________

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#416697 - 03/23/10 05:16 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: M.D. Roche]
Liberterius Offline


Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 241

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#416698 - 03/23/10 05:29 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Liberterius]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
Quote:
Further, the court says that since the school represented the private prom being organized by parents at a furniture store as open to all students, then the court expects that event will indeed invite McMillen and her girlfriend.


...but wouldn't it be hilarious if they weren't allowed at that one, either? smirk

But seriously, good for her and lesbo prom dates everywhere.
_________________________

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#416714 - 03/23/10 08:53 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: M.D. Roche]
Liberterius Offline


Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 241
Indeed. I'm pleased with how it all turned out in the end, good court ruling.

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#416721 - 03/23/10 09:30 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Liberterius]
Murkylight Offline


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Canada
Sorry I'm late, we held an intervention for my avatar and hauled her ass off to rehab. As you can see, she has changed her gender and is looking for gainful employment while studying law at the halfway house.

Here is my favourite line from the sites linked above:

"This case is different because this is not just dress, it is a higher claim of personal identity," Haynes said. "I think that if the student prevails in this case, it will send a message to school districts that they need to accommodate students now who are openly gay and lesbian and want to participate in student activities," Haynes said.

Beautiful. Absolutely gorgeous. I envision these guys eating shit in stale, malformed little morsels spaced frequently throughout the continuum of their careers.

Yes Phinias, there really is a dark, secret, gay underground that recruits innocent hets like in an Alice in Wonderland transformative experience. If you slip down the rabbit hole...well...it means too much lube was in use at the time. smile
_________________________
At a formal dinner party, the person nearest death should always be seated closest to the bathroom.

- George Carlin -

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#416722 - 03/23/10 09:37 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Murkylight]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
Originally Posted By: Murkylight
If you slip down the rabbit hole...well...it means too much lube was in use at the time.


I hate when that happens!
_________________________

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#416735 - 03/23/10 10:39 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: M.D. Roche]
Murkylight Offline


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Canada
I know! And the real bitch is finding them once they're down there!
_________________________
At a formal dinner party, the person nearest death should always be seated closest to the bathroom.

- George Carlin -

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#416779 - 03/24/10 09:07 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: ROA]
MagdaGraham Offline
CoS Priestess

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 13369
Loc: Scotland
_________________________
We are the makers of manners. (Shakespeare)

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3

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#416800 - 03/24/10 01:37 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: M.D. Roche]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Well, better too much lube, than too little, right?

Oh, and ::::insert Richard Gere joke here::::.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#416804 - 03/24/10 02:08 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: MagdaGraham]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1810
Loc: Denmark
It was quite interesting to see that the case has now become so prominent that our local pro-gay newspaper reported the verdict (we don't really have any anti-gay mainstream media, but this one is the only one yet to use gay people in advertising itself).

Also, not to make any political commentary, but to show how different things can get - the main issue in the newspapers here is that the conservative party has come out in favor of gay marriages - not registered partners, we've had that for many years, but they are in favor of forcing the state church to have rituals for gay people as well.
_________________________
While having never invented a sin, I'm trying to perfect several.

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#416807 - 03/24/10 02:27 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: verszou]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
Originally Posted By: verszou
Also, not to make any political commentary, but to show how different things can get - the main issue in the newspapers here is that the conservative party has come out in favor of gay marriages - not registered partners, we've had that for many years, but they are in favor of forcing the state church to have rituals for gay people as well.


"Conservative" as in Libertarians (the true sense of the word) or radical Christian Republican neo-Cons?

If it's the latter, this is indeed further evidence of a new Satanic age.
_________________________

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#416812 - 03/24/10 03:10 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: M.D. Roche]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1810
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: MALFORM
Originally Posted By: verszou
Also, not to make any political commentary, but to show how different things can get - the main issue in the newspapers here is that the conservative party has come out in favor of gay marriages - not registered partners, we've had that for many years, but they are in favor of forcing the state church to have rituals for gay people as well.


"Conservative" as in Libertarians (the true sense of the word) or radical Christian Republican neo-Cons?

If it's the latter, this is indeed further evidence of a new Satanic age.


It's difficult to put exactly in American political terms.

We have very few real libertarians, but we have a government based on two parties who will probably identify themselves with the republicans rather than the democrats. But even our right wing is placed somewhere in liberal parts of the republican party.

But our conservatives are normally know for "God, kingdom and country", hardliners on crime, against taxes (which over here means 'no we think 50% should be enough', which gives you an idea of the gap between European and American conservative smile Still just stating differences, not taking asking for debate on which side is right).

But they are very much a christian party, by our standards of christianity, so it is significant. But their stance is that in order to save state sponsored christianity the church has to move according to popular opinion, not according to scripture. Which again interestingly enough has given rise to some priests asking for a separation of church and state smile

I'd guess that to some Americans I'm living in Bizzaro world smile
_________________________
While having never invented a sin, I'm trying to perfect several.

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#416832 - 03/24/10 08:54 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: verszou]
Murkylight Offline


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Canada
Verszou, this is fascinating to hear about because it opens up my thinking in terms of what can happen in a society. For the party to see how they could benefit from same-sex marriage, although not for the reason I would personally prefer, is a remarkable political development. In Canada,we can marry and are also considered common-law automatically after one year together. The conservatives fought this tooth and nail. The Conservatives are now in power and have just removed information about rights for gays, lesbians and transexuals from the immigratioin guidebook. We are protected by federal law but this information is now not being offered to newcomers, who may come from very, very socially harsh climates where we basically get jailed or killed if found out.

But I have to say, your post is an inspiration to me!
_________________________
At a formal dinner party, the person nearest death should always be seated closest to the bathroom.

- George Carlin -

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#416843 - 03/24/10 10:59 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: verszou]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Not at all, this whole planet is a Bizzaro world.
_________________________
"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin

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#416898 - 03/25/10 10:31 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: TrojZyr]
Murkylight Offline


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: TrojZyr
Well, better too much lube, than too little, right?

Oh, and ::::insert Richard Gere joke here::::.


Apparently it's better when the gerbils are shaved. cool
_________________________
At a formal dinner party, the person nearest death should always be seated closest to the bathroom.

- George Carlin -

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#417148 - 03/29/10 04:59 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Murkylight]
Alleycat Devil Offline


Registered: 11/24/08
Posts: 46
Loc: MB, Canada
I'm chuckling becuse some short-sighted school administrators got beaten down with a sack of publicly declaired indignation swung by an 18 year old girl.

Frankly I'm suprised the adminsitration diddn't take the opertunity to pin itself another good-guy badge by encourging the girl to take her partner to the event host by the school, and publicly advertising as loudly as possible that the school was "SUPERSPECIALHAPPYSUPPORTIVEGEEGOLLY" about it.

Lies or not, that at least would have been a semi-intelligent response to a powder-keg issue like this one.

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#417151 - 03/29/10 05:58 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Alleycat Devil]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Alleycat, such is the nature of bureaucrats. I think a person becomes so tight-assedly fixated on rules, regulations, federal standards, test scores, the board of directors, and who might sue that they just dispense with all common sense, and all true big-picture-oriented PR savvy, so that they just end up shooting themselves in the foot anyway.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#417184 - 03/30/10 01:25 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: TrojZyr]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1810
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: TrojZyr
Alleycat, such is the nature of bureaucrats. I think a person becomes so tight-assedly fixated on rules, regulations, federal standards, test scores, the board of directors, and who might sue that they just dispense with all common sense, and all true big-picture-oriented PR savvy, so that they just end up shooting themselves in the foot anyway.


I think that is very true. But also, being administrators, not creators of rules, they invest themselves in their ability to do so.

So admitting that they were wrong is a blow to their self-esteem, which also takes them into a frightful territory where there may be more than one way to interpret the rules.

They are more invested in ensuring that they can't be proved to have done something wrong in the past, than in the opportunity offered to do something right. Which is ok, as long as there is somebody higher in the hierarchy who can keep the big picture and overrule when needed. But sometimes they get promoted all the way up there, and you get results like this.
_________________________
While having never invented a sin, I'm trying to perfect several.

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#417204 - 03/30/10 09:18 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: verszou]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: verszou
So admitting that they were wrong is a blow to their self-esteem, which also takes them into a frightful territory where there may be more than one way to interpret the rules.


Indeed, and that the children and adults might come to see them as paper tigers is more frightening still.

Quote:
They are more invested in ensuring that they can't be proved to have done something wrong in the past, than in the opportunity offered to do something right.


And that is why counterproductive pride is a Satanic Sin. Eventually, your whole life can come to revolve around generating increasingly-elaborate excuses for behavior, and going to greater and greater lengths to cover your ass. Really, it's just easier to say, "My bad," and move on.

Quote:
Which is ok, as long as there is somebody higher in the hierarchy who can keep the big picture and overrule when needed. But sometimes they get promoted all the way up there, and you get results like this.


The Peter Principle, they call it.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#417273 - 03/31/10 05:15 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: TrojZyr]
MagdaGraham Offline
CoS Priestess

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 13369
Loc: Scotland
_________________________
We are the makers of manners. (Shakespeare)

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3

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#417396 - 04/01/10 12:37 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: ROA]
Dark_Adept Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 884
Loc: High Hades
They need to get with the program...on a personal note, that's one of the hottest bbw lesbians I've seen persecuted in a podunk backwoods state. coopdevil That being said, on a more political note, that's been commonplace in So Cal since the 90's rolled around and the hangover of guys in fishnet stockings and day-glow ensembles carried over into effeminate overtones and gay acceptance. It's actually becoming chic in the high school scene (from talking to some younger relatives) to actually be lesbian openly and acceptable; more commonplace than once probably thought to be. Of course as Bill M. said, the southern states tend to hold on to that "idiocracy" of self-serving morality and hypocritical self deceit rather than focusing on real issues of concern in high school which apparently seems to be more "columbine types" trying to blow up or mass murder their fellow students, not "Victor/Victoria" trying to crash their prom. Once again, a typical case of poor priority judgment.
_________________________
No Good Deed Goes Unpunished coopdevil

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#417468 - 04/01/10 10:39 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Old_Pig]
Insurgent Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 2303
Originally Posted By: Old_Pig
So they didn't let her go to a glorified kiddie party. Boo-hoo!

I remember when "oppressed" meant 30 years of forced labor in Siberia.

PS: I'm not siding with the bible-thumping assholes, I’m just amused by how lightly the word “oppressed” is thrown around nowadays. The famous Monty Python sketch comes to mind.


Well yes, I'm sure there's always some random African being set ablaze with gasoline while being restrained by a car tire but of course that has no relation to the progression of American values and civil liberties.

This is quite simply as oppressive as it is, no more and no less because of the level of oppression elsewhere. Further, being that it is as oppressive as it is: it stinks.

With all "due" respect.

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#418001 - 04/07/10 04:54 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Bill_M]
MagdaGraham Offline
CoS Priestess

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 13369
Loc: Scotland
_________________________
We are the makers of manners. (Shakespeare)

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3

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#418004 - 04/07/10 07:23 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: MagdaGraham]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1810
Loc: Denmark
Well, as I've said a few times in my life, when things didn't go the way I'd planned or wanted - at least you know who your friends are. No need to concern yourself with fitting in with those others.
_________________________
While having never invented a sin, I'm trying to perfect several.

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#418006 - 04/07/10 07:54 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: verszou]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10555
Loc: England
Originally Posted By: verszou
Well, as I've said a few times in my life, when things didn't go the way I'd planned or wanted - at least you know who your friends are. No need to concern yourself with fitting in with those others.



Very true. In this particular case there is no way the young lady could have predicted this would all explode to the degree that it has, inucurring international media exposure.
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#418007 - 04/07/10 08:22 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: ROA]
LightAngel Offline


Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 1669
Loc: Denmark
Maybe music will help her, art is always better than fighting against monkeys devilchili

B-52's - Devil in my car



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#418174 - 04/09/10 04:39 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: LightAngel]
MagdaGraham Offline
CoS Priestess

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 13369
Loc: Scotland
_________________________
We are the makers of manners. (Shakespeare)

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3

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#419302 - 04/22/10 06:16 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: MagdaGraham]
MagdaGraham Offline
CoS Priestess

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 13369
Loc: Scotland
_________________________
We are the makers of manners. (Shakespeare)

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3

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#419305 - 04/22/10 06:55 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: MagdaGraham]
M.D. Roche Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
Quote:
The lesbian teenager from Mississippi who challenged her school district's ban on same-sex prom dates is seeking unspecified monetary damages, claiming she was publicly humiliated.


Okay, now she's going too far.
_________________________

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#419308 - 04/22/10 07:25 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: M.D. Roche]
Spelled Moon Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/25/08
Posts: 1691
Mining from the situation the most that is possible.

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#419309 - 04/22/10 07:33 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: MagdaGraham]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8236
Playing the victim card to the max. Predictable.

Publicly humiliated.....who was it it that called the press and the ACLU and appeared on Ellen's show and everything else?

All the altruistic "Oh I am the hero for lesbian causes" nonsense has melted away and the true reason for all this hullabaloo finally emerges.

So typical.

Like we couldn't see this coming...


_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#419326 - 04/22/10 04:20 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
WarmWater Offline


Registered: 04/16/10
Posts: 8
Wow, pretty much all the sympathy I had for her is gone now. Years down the road she'll probably look back and think how much change she did and what a great thing it was.

Stupid.

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#419998 - 04/30/10 09:54 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: WarmWater]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Came across a related story this morning:

High School Erases Gay Student From Yearbook

Apr 29th 2010 By Carrie Sloan

http://www.lemondrop.com/2010/04/29/cear...rom-yearbook%2F

Paging Annie Hall: Apparently Wesson Attendance Center high school in Jackson, Miss., still hasn't heard about the menswear for ladies trend.

Back in 2009, the school refused to publish a photo of Ceara Sturgis, a lesbian student, wearing a tuxedo on the "senior page" in the 2010 yearbook.

When they heard the news, Ceara and her mom made a date with the ACLU, and in October the organization wrote the school a letter, suggesting that not wearing a dress wasn't really a good reason to keep a student out. Copiah County School District officials, however, disagreed.

Then on Friday, when the yearbooks arrived, not only was Ceara's photo missing, her name was also nowhere to be seen.

"They've got kids in the book that have been busted for drugs," her mom told the Jackson Free Press. "There's even a picture of one of the seniors who dropped out of school. I don't get it. Ceara's a star student ... It's like she's nobody there, even though she's gone to school there for 12 years."

We don't get it either. In our bow-tie-loving opinions, show up nude in a class photo, and we agree, you're out. Excessive cleavage? Eh, depends on the dress code. But in this case, we're talking about a suit that buttons up to the neck.

Then again: Is it really about attire at all?

Last week, the school district -- referring all questions to its attorney -- clung to a legal precedent to justify its creative Photoshopping: A 2004 settlement in Hillsborough County, Fla., which upheld then–Robinson High School principal Kevin McCarthy's refusal to let a female student pose for her class photo wearing a suit instead of the "scoop-necked drape" required of young ladies.

Unfortunately for those after Ceara, that student sued, and the Florida school soon changed its tune.

Of course, not everybody is pitted against the fashion-challenged senior: Her fellow students nominated her for prom queen, but Ceara refused, knowing the school would never let her accept that honor ... a prescient decision if we've ever heard one.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#420001 - 04/30/10 11:13 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
kindergirl Offline


Registered: 06/04/09
Posts: 13
I agree.

If someone is going to be openly gay they should be openly aware of the fact that different is a social 'sin'.

Trying to gain pity for a cause seems a bit counter productive for trying to fit in. If anything it'll just make the person stand out even more. So why complain in the first place?

I you want to be a part of a crowd of white, don't wear black.

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#420002 - 04/30/10 11:29 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: kindergirl]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Why complain?

Because simply by virtue of not being able to get married in every region of this country, gay people are not eligible for up to 1,049 legal rights and protections.

Because schools are being utterly infantile when they cancel proms or delete yearbook photos just because a student is gay, and/or is cross-dressing. If we're not going to tolerate Judeo-Christian superstitious nonsense in other areas, why tolerate it here?

Sexual orientation is largely influenced by biology, so being gay is not the same as wearing white after Labor Day, or deciding to wear hot pink to a funeral. Even when gays decide to blend in, their core sexual orientation remains unchanged.

Earlier in this thread, I believe we discussed the differences between being gay, and say, being a Satanist. There are many things one can and even should keep to oneself quite comfortably, like religion, or politics, or even, sexual fetishes.

The difference is, I don't need to be 'out' about my religion, politics, or favorite board game when I go to prom. But, if I plan to bring an actual date to prom, or to the office party, or to Thanksgiving dinner, that entails 'coming out' one way or another.

I can't say I agree entirely with this girl's approach or M.O., but I don't think she should've just stuffed it, either. If everyone wears black to the party just to make the fundies and idiots feel at ease, then the idiots and fundies will always hold sway over society and the law.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#420019 - 04/30/10 01:22 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: TrojZyr]
Foris Offline


Registered: 07/31/08
Posts: 37
Loc: Ohio, United States of America
While her method and perspective may be skewed, I still think full well that this issue needs to be dealt with. The fundies running that school were forcing their long-rotten garbage down the throats of their students by making her the monster. So frightful of being shunned by the flock were they that they wouldn't even show her face on their book. And if it wasn't out of fear, it was blackmail to all other gay students: "Come out, and be struck from the record!"

At that point, I don't care WHAT she does. She could streak around with her pubes dyed rainbow colors, and a tattoo saying "Pity me, I'm oppressed!" as long as it has negative effects for the assholes in charge of that place.

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#420023 - 04/30/10 02:31 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Foris]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8236
So frightful of being shunned by the flock were they that they wouldn't even show her face on their book.

Not quite.

Did you go to the link Witch TrojZyr provided? In that there is a link to the Jackson Free Press , where we find this:

"CORRECTION, April 29, 2010: Thanks to a watchful reader, the Jackson Free Press discovered today that reporter Adam Lynch originally misinterpreted Veronica Rodriguez's phone call about her daughter's yearbook. The above story originally reported that the yearbook contained no mention or photos of Sturgis or her accolades, but we confirmed from her mother today that she is pictured in sections other than the senior-portrait section. We have edited the above story to reflect this fact, and added the above bolded paragraph based on our conversation with Sturgis' mother today. We have requested a copy of the yearbook, and will update this story further if needed once we receive it. We apologize for the errors and thank the reader who pointed out the mischaracterization. -- Editor Donna Ladd."

Shoddy journalism. They should have verified this to begin with, as well as verifying the claims the mother made: "They've got kids in the book that have been busted for drugs," her mom told the Jackson Free Press. "There's even a picture of one of the seniors who dropped out of school. I don't get it. Ceara's a star student ... It's like she's nobody there, even though she's gone to school there for 12 years."

While this may prove to be correct, in its present form it is only hearsay.

Again, shoddy journalism, interested in pushing emotional buttons instead of accurately reporting the facts.

She could streak around with her pubes dyed rainbow colors, and a tattoo saying "Pity me, I'm oppressed!" as long as it has negative effects for the assholes in charge of that place.

Yes, lets have her do that get arrested for it, and provide further ammunition for those who are against her homosexuality to begin with. zombie
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#420027 - 04/30/10 03:08 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Foris]
kindergirl Offline


Registered: 06/04/09
Posts: 13
Ok well while TrojZyr makes an excellent point...

The rights and protections she speaks of are serious when it comes to legal or medical action and are things to be fought for. However, that is not the case here.

She's not being 'oppressed', she's being discriminated against and not in the worst way. It's prom. To me, prom isn't a right, it's a social gathering. She's not being denied food, shelter, a job, or something that is actually necessary or important.

To me this article is about a whiny teen who didn't get to go to a school event because she expects society to change their view of something so she could fit in.

Does that mean she or we should conform to the Christian ideals that discriminated against her in the first place? Absolutely not.

But then don't expect an extremely conservative Christian community who IS in rule where she lives to welcome her with open arms.

The bottom line is, there were very simple solutions to her problem and there was no need for her to victimize herself to this point. She could have avoided this very easily.





Edited by kindergirl (04/30/10 03:10 PM)

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#420040 - 04/30/10 09:42 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: Phineas


"CORRECTION, April 29, 2010: Thanks to a watchful reader, the Jackson Free Press discovered today that reporter Adam Lynch originally misinterpreted Veronica Rodriguez's phone call about her daughter's yearbook. The above story originally reported that the yearbook contained no mention or photos of Sturgis or her accolades, but we confirmed from her mother today that she is pictured in sections other than the senior-portrait section. We have edited the above story to reflect this fact, and added the above bolded paragraph based on our conversation with Sturgis' mother today. We have requested a copy of the yearbook, and will update this story further if needed once we receive it. We apologize for the errors and thank the reader who pointed out the mischaracterization. -- Editor Donna Ladd."

Shoddy journalism. They should have verified this to begin with, as well as verifying the claims the mother made: "They've got kids in the book that have been busted for drugs," her mom told the Jackson Free Press. "There's even a picture of one of the seniors who dropped out of school. I don't get it. Ceara's a star student ... It's like she's nobody there, even though she's gone to school there for 12 years."

While this may prove to be correct, in its present form it is only hearsay.


Thanks for posting the correction. The original article was clearly rooted more in opinion than pure objective reporting, but it was interesting, and sounded very similar to this case, so I posted it.

Though, from here, if she doesn't actually appear in the senior portrait section, is there a good reason why?

Quote:
She's not being 'oppressed', she's being discriminated against and not in the worst way. It's prom. To me, prom isn't a right, it's a social gathering. She's not being denied food, shelter, a job, or something that is actually necessary or important.


True. But, as the saying goes, if you give them an inch, they'll take a mile. If we allow relatively trivial or minor breaches, that may embolden the bigots and twits.

Getting to ride at the front of the bus really isn't that important, either, but these little things are symbolic of much larger things, in my estimation.

Quote:
To me this article is about a whiny teen who didn't get to go to a school event because she expects society to change their view of something so she could fit in.


The school doesn't necessarily have to "change its view." It doesn't have to host a drag show, a flannel fest, or a Cher concert. It just has to be willing to mind its own business, and not get its panties in a twist over the dress or sexual lifestyle of one student. Certainly, the student didn't force the school to cancel prom.

My whole view might be different if the girl had gone home to the family's Thanksgiving dinner in a tux, or if the story was about her being teased by her classmates. Then, depending on the details, I might be more inclined to agree that it's foolish to go against the grain, and then expect or demand that everyone accept you.

But, for me, this is a case of an institution--not just some individuals--acting against the best interests of the community it purports to serve (including parents, teachers, students, and administrators), and making itself look ridiculous and juvenile in the process.

Quote:
The bottom line is, there were very simple solutions to her problem and there was no need for her to victimize herself to this point. She could have avoided this very easily.


Well, and there's the sticky wicket. Personally, I hate to make waves. I'll lie about my politics, religion, or whatever else in order to avoid a scuffle, because I have no interest in becoming a martyr.

But, our society has only been able to progress to a certain point because some people--blacks, women, others--were willing to make waves, and even become martyrs. In the end, I suspect civilization as a whole is better off because not everyone is like me--and I figure, if someone has to be a martyr in order for society to become a safer, better, freer, more authentically stratified, more enjoyable place for ME, I'm glad there are plenty of people ahead of me in the queue!

But, out of curiosity, what simpler solutions do you see? I might've advised her not to wear a tux, but beyond that, placating the school by not going, or or by bringing an "appropriate" date, would only have delayed the inevitable, I imagine.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#420063 - 05/01/10 08:13 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: TrojZyr]
kindergirl Offline


Registered: 06/04/09
Posts: 13
Quote:
The school doesn't necessarily have to "change its view." It doesn't have to host a drag show, a flannel fest, or a Cher concert. It just has to be willing to mind its own business, and not get its panties in a twist over the dress or sexual lifestyle of one student. Certainly, the student didn't force the school to cancel prom.


I do not agree with what the school did. As you mentioned earlier, it was very infantile. However, I do not approve of martyrs in my home. I would not approve of one somewhere else.


Quote:

But, our society has only been able to progress to a certain point because some people--blacks, women, others--were willing to make waves, and even become martyrs. In the end, I suspect civilization as a whole is better off because not everyone is like me--and I figure, if someone has to be a martyr in order for society to become a safer, better, freer, more enjoyable place for ME, I'm glad there are plenty of people ahead of me in the queue!


Again you make an excellent point.

If it would benefit me (like in the case of women) then yes I do not mind someone standing up for their beliefs, but only to a certain point. In this case it is not really benefiting anyone but herself and maybe other gay students in her school (if not hurting said persons).


As far as simpler solutions she and her date could have bought separate tickets (some high schools will give you the option to buy your and your dates tickets together) not announced to everyone what they were going to do and just had gone to the dance together. It's really no one's business who your date is. To me that was her mistake. Unfortunately living in the South, there is no escaping prejudice. She didn't have to lie about her sexual orientation, but she didn't need to make a public announcement about it either. When I went to prom I danced with all of my friends who were girls all night and not once did I dance with a guy. She and her date could have had the fun they wanted without this ugly mess. There are always ways to work around rules without breaking them and getting into trouble.

And yes not wearing a tux would help too. For the record. my prom dress was designed with a tuxedo style because I am a bit of a tomboy.


Edited by kindergirl (05/01/10 08:29 AM)

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#420070 - 05/01/10 08:42 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: kindergirl]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: kindergirl

I do not agree with what the school did. As you mentioned earlier, it was very infantile. However, I do not approve of martyrs in my home. I would not approve of one somewhere else.


Though, if she wins in court, I'm not sure she'll technically be considered a martyr anymore wink.

I don't think I have enough information about this girl to be able to decide whether she's truly the kind of crybaby or whiner I absolutely hate, or the kind of wannabe-activist I usually hate, or if she's just someone who's decided to take a stand. Certainly, taking a stand or registering a complaint does not a martyr make---indeed, refusing to do so can turn one into a martyr just as easily. It's all in the details, strategies, and motives.

And, even so, I figure, the ends justify the means here. I'm happy about the outcome of West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, for example, even though the case was originally brought by Jehovah Witnesses.

If this hullaballoo paves the way for truly better things, that the girl at the center of it all might have been a bitch or a crybaby won't really matter in the long run.

Quote:

If it would benefit me (like in the case of women) then yes I do not mind someone standing up for their beliefs, but only to a certain point. In this case it is not really benefiting anyone but herself and maybe other gay students in her school (if not hurting said persons).


That could very well be. But, only time will tell--because sometimes, temporary discomfort or suffering leads to long-term satisfaction further down the road (and yes, sometimes it doesn't). That's what makes cost-benefit analysis so tricky--especially when you're setting out to change a whole institution or system.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#420072 - 05/01/10 08:49 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: TrojZyr]
kindergirl Offline


Registered: 06/04/09
Posts: 13
Yes we will see in due time....

I always enjoy reading your posts.

So thank you for the lovely discussion :]

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#420074 - 05/01/10 08:52 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: kindergirl]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
You're welcome smile. Thank you as well.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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