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#419326 - 04/22/10 04:20 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
WarmWater Offline


Registered: 04/16/10
Posts: 8
Wow, pretty much all the sympathy I had for her is gone now. Years down the road she'll probably look back and think how much change she did and what a great thing it was.

Stupid.

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#419998 - 04/30/10 09:54 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: WarmWater]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Came across a related story this morning:

High School Erases Gay Student From Yearbook

Apr 29th 2010 By Carrie Sloan

http://www.lemondrop.com/2010/04/29/cear...rom-yearbook%2F

Paging Annie Hall: Apparently Wesson Attendance Center high school in Jackson, Miss., still hasn't heard about the menswear for ladies trend.

Back in 2009, the school refused to publish a photo of Ceara Sturgis, a lesbian student, wearing a tuxedo on the "senior page" in the 2010 yearbook.

When they heard the news, Ceara and her mom made a date with the ACLU, and in October the organization wrote the school a letter, suggesting that not wearing a dress wasn't really a good reason to keep a student out. Copiah County School District officials, however, disagreed.

Then on Friday, when the yearbooks arrived, not only was Ceara's photo missing, her name was also nowhere to be seen.

"They've got kids in the book that have been busted for drugs," her mom told the Jackson Free Press. "There's even a picture of one of the seniors who dropped out of school. I don't get it. Ceara's a star student ... It's like she's nobody there, even though she's gone to school there for 12 years."

We don't get it either. In our bow-tie-loving opinions, show up nude in a class photo, and we agree, you're out. Excessive cleavage? Eh, depends on the dress code. But in this case, we're talking about a suit that buttons up to the neck.

Then again: Is it really about attire at all?

Last week, the school district -- referring all questions to its attorney -- clung to a legal precedent to justify its creative Photoshopping: A 2004 settlement in Hillsborough County, Fla., which upheld then–Robinson High School principal Kevin McCarthy's refusal to let a female student pose for her class photo wearing a suit instead of the "scoop-necked drape" required of young ladies.

Unfortunately for those after Ceara, that student sued, and the Florida school soon changed its tune.

Of course, not everybody is pitted against the fashion-challenged senior: Her fellow students nominated her for prom queen, but Ceara refused, knowing the school would never let her accept that honor ... a prescient decision if we've ever heard one.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#420001 - 04/30/10 11:13 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
kindergirl Offline


Registered: 06/04/09
Posts: 13
I agree.

If someone is going to be openly gay they should be openly aware of the fact that different is a social 'sin'.

Trying to gain pity for a cause seems a bit counter productive for trying to fit in. If anything it'll just make the person stand out even more. So why complain in the first place?

I you want to be a part of a crowd of white, don't wear black.

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#420002 - 04/30/10 11:29 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: kindergirl]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Why complain?

Because simply by virtue of not being able to get married in every region of this country, gay people are not eligible for up to 1,049 legal rights and protections.

Because schools are being utterly infantile when they cancel proms or delete yearbook photos just because a student is gay, and/or is cross-dressing. If we're not going to tolerate Judeo-Christian superstitious nonsense in other areas, why tolerate it here?

Sexual orientation is largely influenced by biology, so being gay is not the same as wearing white after Labor Day, or deciding to wear hot pink to a funeral. Even when gays decide to blend in, their core sexual orientation remains unchanged.

Earlier in this thread, I believe we discussed the differences between being gay, and say, being a Satanist. There are many things one can and even should keep to oneself quite comfortably, like religion, or politics, or even, sexual fetishes.

The difference is, I don't need to be 'out' about my religion, politics, or favorite board game when I go to prom. But, if I plan to bring an actual date to prom, or to the office party, or to Thanksgiving dinner, that entails 'coming out' one way or another.

I can't say I agree entirely with this girl's approach or M.O., but I don't think she should've just stuffed it, either. If everyone wears black to the party just to make the fundies and idiots feel at ease, then the idiots and fundies will always hold sway over society and the law.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#420019 - 04/30/10 01:22 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: TrojZyr]
Foris Offline


Registered: 07/31/08
Posts: 37
Loc: Ohio, United States of America
While her method and perspective may be skewed, I still think full well that this issue needs to be dealt with. The fundies running that school were forcing their long-rotten garbage down the throats of their students by making her the monster. So frightful of being shunned by the flock were they that they wouldn't even show her face on their book. And if it wasn't out of fear, it was blackmail to all other gay students: "Come out, and be struck from the record!"

At that point, I don't care WHAT she does. She could streak around with her pubes dyed rainbow colors, and a tattoo saying "Pity me, I'm oppressed!" as long as it has negative effects for the assholes in charge of that place.

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#420023 - 04/30/10 02:31 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Foris]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8275
So frightful of being shunned by the flock were they that they wouldn't even show her face on their book.

Not quite.

Did you go to the link Witch TrojZyr provided? In that there is a link to the Jackson Free Press , where we find this:

"CORRECTION, April 29, 2010: Thanks to a watchful reader, the Jackson Free Press discovered today that reporter Adam Lynch originally misinterpreted Veronica Rodriguez's phone call about her daughter's yearbook. The above story originally reported that the yearbook contained no mention or photos of Sturgis or her accolades, but we confirmed from her mother today that she is pictured in sections other than the senior-portrait section. We have edited the above story to reflect this fact, and added the above bolded paragraph based on our conversation with Sturgis' mother today. We have requested a copy of the yearbook, and will update this story further if needed once we receive it. We apologize for the errors and thank the reader who pointed out the mischaracterization. -- Editor Donna Ladd."

Shoddy journalism. They should have verified this to begin with, as well as verifying the claims the mother made: "They've got kids in the book that have been busted for drugs," her mom told the Jackson Free Press. "There's even a picture of one of the seniors who dropped out of school. I don't get it. Ceara's a star student ... It's like she's nobody there, even though she's gone to school there for 12 years."

While this may prove to be correct, in its present form it is only hearsay.

Again, shoddy journalism, interested in pushing emotional buttons instead of accurately reporting the facts.

She could streak around with her pubes dyed rainbow colors, and a tattoo saying "Pity me, I'm oppressed!" as long as it has negative effects for the assholes in charge of that place.

Yes, lets have her do that get arrested for it, and provide further ammunition for those who are against her homosexuality to begin with. zombie
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#420027 - 04/30/10 03:08 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Foris]
kindergirl Offline


Registered: 06/04/09
Posts: 13
Ok well while TrojZyr makes an excellent point...

The rights and protections she speaks of are serious when it comes to legal or medical action and are things to be fought for. However, that is not the case here.

She's not being 'oppressed', she's being discriminated against and not in the worst way. It's prom. To me, prom isn't a right, it's a social gathering. She's not being denied food, shelter, a job, or something that is actually necessary or important.

To me this article is about a whiny teen who didn't get to go to a school event because she expects society to change their view of something so she could fit in.

Does that mean she or we should conform to the Christian ideals that discriminated against her in the first place? Absolutely not.

But then don't expect an extremely conservative Christian community who IS in rule where she lives to welcome her with open arms.

The bottom line is, there were very simple solutions to her problem and there was no need for her to victimize herself to this point. She could have avoided this very easily.





Edited by kindergirl (04/30/10 03:10 PM)

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#420040 - 04/30/10 09:42 PM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: Phineas]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: Phineas


"CORRECTION, April 29, 2010: Thanks to a watchful reader, the Jackson Free Press discovered today that reporter Adam Lynch originally misinterpreted Veronica Rodriguez's phone call about her daughter's yearbook. The above story originally reported that the yearbook contained no mention or photos of Sturgis or her accolades, but we confirmed from her mother today that she is pictured in sections other than the senior-portrait section. We have edited the above story to reflect this fact, and added the above bolded paragraph based on our conversation with Sturgis' mother today. We have requested a copy of the yearbook, and will update this story further if needed once we receive it. We apologize for the errors and thank the reader who pointed out the mischaracterization. -- Editor Donna Ladd."

Shoddy journalism. They should have verified this to begin with, as well as verifying the claims the mother made: "They've got kids in the book that have been busted for drugs," her mom told the Jackson Free Press. "There's even a picture of one of the seniors who dropped out of school. I don't get it. Ceara's a star student ... It's like she's nobody there, even though she's gone to school there for 12 years."

While this may prove to be correct, in its present form it is only hearsay.


Thanks for posting the correction. The original article was clearly rooted more in opinion than pure objective reporting, but it was interesting, and sounded very similar to this case, so I posted it.

Though, from here, if she doesn't actually appear in the senior portrait section, is there a good reason why?

Quote:
She's not being 'oppressed', she's being discriminated against and not in the worst way. It's prom. To me, prom isn't a right, it's a social gathering. She's not being denied food, shelter, a job, or something that is actually necessary or important.


True. But, as the saying goes, if you give them an inch, they'll take a mile. If we allow relatively trivial or minor breaches, that may embolden the bigots and twits.

Getting to ride at the front of the bus really isn't that important, either, but these little things are symbolic of much larger things, in my estimation.

Quote:
To me this article is about a whiny teen who didn't get to go to a school event because she expects society to change their view of something so she could fit in.


The school doesn't necessarily have to "change its view." It doesn't have to host a drag show, a flannel fest, or a Cher concert. It just has to be willing to mind its own business, and not get its panties in a twist over the dress or sexual lifestyle of one student. Certainly, the student didn't force the school to cancel prom.

My whole view might be different if the girl had gone home to the family's Thanksgiving dinner in a tux, or if the story was about her being teased by her classmates. Then, depending on the details, I might be more inclined to agree that it's foolish to go against the grain, and then expect or demand that everyone accept you.

But, for me, this is a case of an institution--not just some individuals--acting against the best interests of the community it purports to serve (including parents, teachers, students, and administrators), and making itself look ridiculous and juvenile in the process.

Quote:
The bottom line is, there were very simple solutions to her problem and there was no need for her to victimize herself to this point. She could have avoided this very easily.


Well, and there's the sticky wicket. Personally, I hate to make waves. I'll lie about my politics, religion, or whatever else in order to avoid a scuffle, because I have no interest in becoming a martyr.

But, our society has only been able to progress to a certain point because some people--blacks, women, others--were willing to make waves, and even become martyrs. In the end, I suspect civilization as a whole is better off because not everyone is like me--and I figure, if someone has to be a martyr in order for society to become a safer, better, freer, more authentically stratified, more enjoyable place for ME, I'm glad there are plenty of people ahead of me in the queue!

But, out of curiosity, what simpler solutions do you see? I might've advised her not to wear a tux, but beyond that, placating the school by not going, or or by bringing an "appropriate" date, would only have delayed the inevitable, I imagine.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#420063 - 05/01/10 08:13 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: TrojZyr]
kindergirl Offline


Registered: 06/04/09
Posts: 13
Quote:
The school doesn't necessarily have to "change its view." It doesn't have to host a drag show, a flannel fest, or a Cher concert. It just has to be willing to mind its own business, and not get its panties in a twist over the dress or sexual lifestyle of one student. Certainly, the student didn't force the school to cancel prom.


I do not agree with what the school did. As you mentioned earlier, it was very infantile. However, I do not approve of martyrs in my home. I would not approve of one somewhere else.


Quote:

But, our society has only been able to progress to a certain point because some people--blacks, women, others--were willing to make waves, and even become martyrs. In the end, I suspect civilization as a whole is better off because not everyone is like me--and I figure, if someone has to be a martyr in order for society to become a safer, better, freer, more enjoyable place for ME, I'm glad there are plenty of people ahead of me in the queue!


Again you make an excellent point.

If it would benefit me (like in the case of women) then yes I do not mind someone standing up for their beliefs, but only to a certain point. In this case it is not really benefiting anyone but herself and maybe other gay students in her school (if not hurting said persons).


As far as simpler solutions she and her date could have bought separate tickets (some high schools will give you the option to buy your and your dates tickets together) not announced to everyone what they were going to do and just had gone to the dance together. It's really no one's business who your date is. To me that was her mistake. Unfortunately living in the South, there is no escaping prejudice. She didn't have to lie about her sexual orientation, but she didn't need to make a public announcement about it either. When I went to prom I danced with all of my friends who were girls all night and not once did I dance with a guy. She and her date could have had the fun they wanted without this ugly mess. There are always ways to work around rules without breaking them and getting into trouble.

And yes not wearing a tux would help too. For the record. my prom dress was designed with a tuxedo style because I am a bit of a tomboy.


Edited by kindergirl (05/01/10 08:29 AM)

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#420070 - 05/01/10 08:42 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: kindergirl]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: kindergirl

I do not agree with what the school did. As you mentioned earlier, it was very infantile. However, I do not approve of martyrs in my home. I would not approve of one somewhere else.


Though, if she wins in court, I'm not sure she'll technically be considered a martyr anymore wink.

I don't think I have enough information about this girl to be able to decide whether she's truly the kind of crybaby or whiner I absolutely hate, or the kind of wannabe-activist I usually hate, or if she's just someone who's decided to take a stand. Certainly, taking a stand or registering a complaint does not a martyr make---indeed, refusing to do so can turn one into a martyr just as easily. It's all in the details, strategies, and motives.

And, even so, I figure, the ends justify the means here. I'm happy about the outcome of West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, for example, even though the case was originally brought by Jehovah Witnesses.

If this hullaballoo paves the way for truly better things, that the girl at the center of it all might have been a bitch or a crybaby won't really matter in the long run.

Quote:

If it would benefit me (like in the case of women) then yes I do not mind someone standing up for their beliefs, but only to a certain point. In this case it is not really benefiting anyone but herself and maybe other gay students in her school (if not hurting said persons).


That could very well be. But, only time will tell--because sometimes, temporary discomfort or suffering leads to long-term satisfaction further down the road (and yes, sometimes it doesn't). That's what makes cost-benefit analysis so tricky--especially when you're setting out to change a whole institution or system.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#420072 - 05/01/10 08:49 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: TrojZyr]
kindergirl Offline


Registered: 06/04/09
Posts: 13
Yes we will see in due time....

I always enjoy reading your posts.

So thank you for the lovely discussion :]

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#420074 - 05/01/10 08:52 AM Re: Oppressed lesbian student fights back [Re: kindergirl]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
You're welcome smile. Thank you as well.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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