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#436737 - 10/31/10 01:56 PM Re: Are you..... for, or against the death penalty?! [Re: DCLXVI]
Genevieve Offline


Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 38
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Originally Posted By: DCLXVI
There are certain crimes that I feel should carry the death penalty. And with DNA being used (where it applies) in the convictions, I feel they should be carried out immediately. Among these: murder, rape, child molestation, & selling drugs to minors.

The first three, I feel the death penalty should be mandatory. No plea bargains. Fair trial, then upon conviction, the needle.


I like your way of thinking Mr. DCLXVI selling drugs to minors is a major crime the sellers are praying on the vulnerable. I believe in the court of law how ever they should have to prove that the defendant whole heartedly knew and didn't care the victim was a minor first though. Many of these defendants tend to be repeat offenders as well may I add.
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#456344 - 07/21/11 08:09 AM Re: Serial Killers [Re: LightAngel]
LightAngel Offline


Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 1673
Loc: Denmark
This is an old topic I understand that, but I have now finish my reading about this, and I find it funny how my instinct was right from the start.

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#456345 - 07/21/11 08:29 AM Re: Serial Killers [Re: LightAngel]
LordAaron Offline


Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 7
Loc: North Wales UK
I have thought long and hard about replying to this being that I am in the process of reading the Satanic Bible which is helping me come to a better understanding of myself.
I thought why not answer. I won't pretend to understand the minds of people who have killed others be it for country, family or their own reasons. What ever your belief systems about life etc....... I can honestly state yes I have wanted revenge on those who have done me wrong but it it a fact that only certain members of Human Society are permitted to terminate the lives of other humans and even then with a examination of the actual act.

Sarcasm is a wonderful gift to have and I enjoy it immensely I have another gift of remembering what I read, I must say I wonder what Mr LaVey would think about some of the views posted in this topic, I know what I think. My so wanting to put down some of the wit and humour I have developed over the years is very strong but I will deny that side of me, acknowledging a true Satanist denies himself not. But I will ask this of some of you it is perfectly natural to want to seek revenge on those who do us wrong is it not? So when is a murderer not a murderer?


Edited by LordAaron (07/21/11 08:30 AM)
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That which does not kill us makes us stronger........

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#456351 - 07/21/11 02:55 PM Re: Serial Killers [Re: LordAaron]
Lamar Drummer Offline


Registered: 09/16/10
Posts: 133
Loc: Alabama
Originally Posted By: LordAaron

...it a fact that only certain members of Human Society are permitted to terminate the lives of other humans and even then with a examination of the actual act.


I tend to be in favor of capital punishment. Lex Talionis. But I think that it's bullshit and somewhat degrading that if a crime is commited then we have to be judged by a jury of our peers, human beings just like me who have the exact same potential to commit a crime just as the rest of us. On a human level the judge of the court is no better than I am nor is the judge "over" me. We all have the ability to carry out "evil."

I am not meaning to imply that a murderer who killed someone in cold blood does not deserve to be killed back. I favor justice. It's just that at the core of the matter it is merely a human being that decides if the other lives or dies. Just pointing that out.

Originally Posted By: LordAaron
But I will ask this of some of you it is perfectly natural to want to seek revenge on those who do us wrong is it not? So when is a murderer not a murderer?

I think that it is natural to want to seek revenge for an injustice. But again even the death sentence is murder.

I think that people should generally follow the dictum "don't fuck with me and I won't fuck with you." Of course there will be people that cross that line and when they do they should be met with retaliation suitable for the crime.

My thoughts.
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Shit Lamar Says

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#456354 - 07/21/11 03:21 PM Re: Serial Killers [Re: Lamar Drummer]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8257
Murder.

Capital punishment is carried out through due process in accordance to the laws of the land.

Murder is not.

They both involve killing. But one is murder, one is not.
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#456359 - 07/21/11 07:21 PM Re: Are you..... for, or against the death penalty?! [Re: Genevieve]
DCLXVI Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 07/13/06
Posts: 1064
Loc: U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Genevieve
I believe in the court of law how ever they should have to prove that the defendant whole heartedly knew and didn't care the victim was a minor first though.



My opinion on this is: most children tend to LOOK like children. If the drug dealers sell to them, (again, in my opinion) it is evident they don't care about the age of their victims. Upon conviction, give them a dose they won't forget.

In, basically, the same line, something was in the news some 30 years ago in Oklahoma that I found a bit disturbing.

It was around the time when the Oklahoma Department of Corrections was buying several public schools that had either been closed or new buildings were being built to replace the older structures.
They bought an old school in Tulsa to convert to use as a "Half Way House."
The neighborhood association complained, because they didn't want it in their area. Stating that they didn't want people convicted of violent crimes near their homes. (This is understandable.)
The D.O.C. told them, "...no-one convicted of violent crimes will be housed there..."
Of the first 200 inmates housed at the new facility, 150 of them had been convicted of attempted murder, attempted rape, etc.
Now, someone correct me if my thinging is wrong on this. But, if person A shoots someone and kills them, and person B hits someone in the head with a baseball bat and DOESN'T kill them, shouldn't both crimes pretty well be classified as violent crimes???

So, in answer to the question posed by the title of the thread: Yes, I wholeheartedly support the death penalty.
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"Churches may close and old shepherds may die, but the herd will always be the herd."
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#456377 - 07/21/11 10:46 PM Re: Serial Killers [Re: LightAngel]
AdamBomb Offline


Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 75
The ice man was interesting with how he had in him a genetic trait that could have easily made him into a heroic character. He had this risk-taking adrenaline craving mentality which could have made him into a fireman or a police officer, but unfortunately turned him into the opposite. Heroes and villains are in no doubt opposites, but have the same traits when it comes to taking risks and being attracted to an adrenaline rush.
It's very interesting material - things like the similarities between good and evil, genius and insanity.

The way I look at it and probably people in general, we are all products of our environment. Evil lives is in us all just like cancer. Something in your life triggers it. You may smoke all your life and never get cancer - not highly possible and also not smoke a cigarette your whole life and still get it. So you can have a serial killer with a great child hood and still have a possibility of snapping.

A comedian mentioned this, and I think it was Larry David, in his stand up about religion and how you get people that are good all their lives, follow the rules, read a Holy Bible everyday, and then go out on top of building and start sniping people randomly. I think he would be referring to that Texas shooter back in the 60s.

So a bad childhood, statistically, increases the chances of a child to become a serial killer, but doesn't guarantee as does with a good childhood.

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#456394 - 07/22/11 02:56 AM Re: Serial Killers [Re: AdamBomb]
Kernel Offline


Registered: 04/20/11
Posts: 71
Loc: Nothern Europe
We wouldn't have any heroes without villains.

In my opinion childhood trauma is the effect maker. Not necessarily bad childhood in general, but the trauma it can cause. But there have been many serial killers and others that have had good life in general. Something may just have cracked one day - who knows?

About good and evil.. As in as the way the act itself is good or evil or the consequences are good or evil? Which is more important? I personally don't know. Thoughts?

It was said in one of my favorite entertainments that: "Those with the greatest capacity for good have also the greatest capacity for evil." I think this works in both ways.
_________________________
"It's not what we were or what we will be, it is what we are now that makes all the difference and the potential we have at this moment to become even greater."

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#456486 - 07/23/11 02:09 AM Re: Serial Killers [Re: Phineas]
LordAaron Offline


Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 7
Loc: North Wales UK
Its obvious to me that there have been miscarriages of justice people executed but then found to be not guilty (when relatives take up the case) its happened in Britain.
How do you people feel in regards to the guilty being executed when you take in to consideration miscarriages of justice from a I have to state here that I object to most western societies belief systems you know the kind "we are right your wrong now the shut the f*** up or we will bomb you" Western societies are so hypocritical in there belief systems for instance "thou shalt not kill" yet we have Military priests who bless those going into battle, this week we had a Rector burn passages of the bible because he did not like them.

These types of people help make and define the society I live in & please no one start talking about Democracy as there is no such thing for how can there be? example we five have decided you four will obey these rules no matter how you feel about them. (Democracy is equal participation.) To enforce them we have a group of people that will enforce them with other rules should you disobey..........

As you can probably tell I feel disillusioned with human society but I do feel the that the words of Anton Lavey have opened up the ability to understand myself my life and how to deal with other people's crap. Be that right or wrong in your minds it works for me.
_________________________
That which does not kill us makes us stronger........

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#456490 - 07/23/11 03:10 AM Re: Serial Killers [Re: Lamar Drummer]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 991
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: Lamar Drummer
But I think that it's bullshit and somewhat degrading that if a crime is commited then we have to be judged by a jury of our peers, human beings just like me who have the exact same potential to commit a crime just as the rest of us. On a human level the judge of the court is no better than I am nor is the judge "over" me. We all have the ability to carry out "evil."

I am not meaning to imply that a murderer who killed someone in cold blood does not deserve to be killed back. I favor justice. It's just that at the core of the matter it is merely a human being that decides if the other lives or dies.

"Do you know the only value life has is what life puts upon itself?"
-Jack London,The Sea Wolf
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#456496 - 07/23/11 07:25 AM Re: Serial Killers [Re: LordAaron]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2333
Loc: East Coast, USA.
There's a lot to tackle here, so I'll just go point by point.

Quote:
Its obvious to me that there have been miscarriages of justice people executed but then found to be not guilty (when relatives take up the case) its happened in Britain.


Statistically, the number of DNA cases exonerating death row inmates, or just regular prisoners, is a very small percentage in comparison to all of the correctly prosecuted and justifiably imprisoned criminals. Any system of justice is is not infallible, it's impossible to have a perfect system, but it's a system that for the most part, works. Sure, it's sad when you hear about wrongly accused individuals being set free years later because of new DNA evidence--unfortunately, that's the risk involved, and one that society must accept, if society has any intentions of punishing criminals.

"There have been 272 post-conviction DNA exonerations in United States history" Source.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=11

The above link will show that just by years end 2009, 272 people is hardly a drop in the ocean compared to the amount of people incarcerated--in America alone. I'm certain that the number worldwide, would almost certainly be astronomical. I would say that overturning a system that works, because of a few kinks, would just be premature.

Which is to say nothing about recidivism rates.

Quote:
How do you people feel in regards to the guilty being executed when you take in to consideration miscarriages of justice


If they are guilty, then I have no remorse. I don't have the luxury, the time or the necessary means to determine which execution is or is not a "miscarriage of justice", so I will err on the side of the experts who do have those resources available to them.

Quote:
I have to state here that I object to most western societies belief systems you know the kind "we are right your wrong now the shut the f*** up or we will bomb you"


I have yet to hear of any Western governments adopting that foreign policy--bit crass and highly alienating, don't you think? I've heard of a few Middle Eastern countries that flirt with that policy, though, which is why they are mostly ostracized and ridiculed in the world theater.

Could you provide some examples, so we have a more precise temporal location to start a conversation?

Quote:
Western societies are so hypocritical in there belief systems for instance "thou shalt not kill" yet we have Military priests who bless those going into battle


I'm not a "religious" man in the sense of accepting an outside deity, the belief in prayer, the holy trinity or any of that jazz. But won't I won't do, is begrudge soldiers fighting for my freedoms, their comfort and belief in the efficacy of prayers and blessings if that's what gets them through the hail of bullets, dead bodies etc., with their sanity intact. What right do I have to undermine what can sometimes be the only concrete that keeps those men and women together?

As for hypocrisy, I would say that it isn't hypocritical at all, since a vast number of Christian sects (I do assume that you're referring to Christianity for brevity, correct me if I'm wrong) throughout history have waged one war or another in the name of their creator. Christianity is not a peaceful religion, any more than Islam is, but it has, for the most part, been relatively castrated in regards to present day Holy Crusading--now, it's more dangerous in the political arena than the battlefield.

Quote:
this week we had a Rector burn passages of the bible because he did not like them.


One man, hardly a damning case...against anything.

Quote:
please no one start talking about Democracy as there is no such thing


I mean...really.

Quote:
example we five have decided you four will obey these rules no matter how you feel about them.


A gross oversimplification of how laws are ratified; democracy. However, a civilization needs rules and those that enforce them, unless you're an Anarchist, which itself is a bunch of bullshit.

Quote:
To enforce them we have a group of people that will enforce them with other rules should you disobey..........


Find an island and become a hermit.




_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a personís faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





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#456502 - 07/23/11 09:40 AM Re: Serial Killers [Re: LordAaron]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1812
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: LordAaron

These types of people help make and define the society I live in & please no one start talking about Democracy as there is no such thing for how can there be?


At least you were "kind" enough to prefix your statement with "please" - but really that's just sugar-coating the fact that you want to determine the basis on which to have an argument by saying what is allowed and not allowed in the debate. It's always a sign of intellectual laziness.

Further "how can there be" is really argument from personal incredulity i.e. "If I can't think of this, then it does not exist".

So basically, if you're too lazy to refute something, you ask beforehand to have it withdrawn from the debate?
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While having never invented a sin, I'm trying to perfect several.

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#456551 - 07/24/11 02:40 AM Re: Serial Killers [Re: Poetaster]
LordAaron Offline


Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 7
Loc: North Wales UK
Originally Posted By: Poetaster
There's a lot to tackle here, so I'll just go point by point.



Statistically, the number of DNA cases exonerating death row inmates, or just regular prisoners, is a very small percentage in comparison to all of the correctly prosecuted and justifiably imprisoned criminals. Any system of justice is is not infallible, it's impossible to have a perfect system, but it's a system that for the most part, works. Sure, it's sad when you hear about wrongly accused individuals being set free years later because of new DNA evidence--unfortunately, that's the risk involved, and one that society must accept, if society has any intentions of punishing criminals.

"There have been 272 post-conviction DNA exonerations in United States history" Source.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=11

The above link will show that just by years end 2009, 272 people is hardly a drop in the ocean compared to the amount of people incarcerated--in America alone. I'm certain that the number worldwide, would almost certainly be astronomical. I would say that overturning a system that works, because of a few kinks, would just be premature.

Which is to say nothing about recidivism rates.

Its interesting that your comfortable defending those odds with stat's, can I just ask though how would you feel if it was you that was wrongly convicted? Would you be happy that you were a small minority of errors. Or slightly upset that you were labelled and spent time incarcerated for a crime you had not committed.

Quote:
How do you people feel in regards to the guilty being executed when you take in to consideration miscarriages of justice


If they are guilty, then I have no remorse. I don't have the luxury, the time or the necessary means to determine which execution is or is not a "miscarriage of justice", so I will err on the side of the experts who do have those resources available to them.


There we have the hiding behind others who make the decisions to punish or as I like to put it "not my problem"

Quote:
I have to state here that I object to most western societies belief systems you know the kind "we are right your wrong now the shut the f*** up or we will bomb you"


I have yet to hear of any Western governments adopting that foreign policy--bit crass and highly alienating, don't you think? I've heard of a few Middle Eastern countries that flirt with that policy, though, which is why they are mostly ostracized and ridiculed in the world theater.

Could you provide some examples, so we have a more precise temporal location to start a conversation?

I can provide a few Korea,Vietnam, Cuba (sanctions granted)
Interference in other nations policies (Iran,Iraq,Libya, yet happy to leave African countries alone Rwanda, Somalia the list goes on.... Wait it could it be because Libya, Iran have a substance that is needed oh what's it called now it comes out of the ground and is black hmmmmmm I will get back to you on that one.
Quote:
Western societies are so hypocritical in there belief systems for instance "thou shalt not kill" yet we have Military priests who bless those going into battle


I'm not a "religious" man in the sense of accepting an outside deity, the belief in prayer, the holy trinity or any of that jazz. But won't I won't do, is begrudge soldiers fighting for my freedoms, their comfort and belief in the efficacy of prayers and blessings if that's what gets them through the hail of bullets, dead bodies etc., with their sanity intact. What right do I have to undermine what can sometimes be the only concrete that keeps those men and women together?

Do you actually believe the reasons US,UK,France and other allied countries are sending troops weapons, bombs to Libya, Afghanistan that its to help rid them of insurgents? Have you actually stopped to think why there are people who do not like and lets make this as simple as is possible ARE WILLING TO DIE to fight your nations (& others) troops its not just because there Islamic extremists, don't be so naive.

As for hypocrisy, I would say that it isn't hypocritical at all, since a vast number of Christian sects (I do assume that you're referring to Christianity for brevity, correct me if I'm wrong) throughout history have waged one war or another in the name of their creator. Christianity is not a peaceful religion, any more than Islam is, but it has, for the most part, been relatively castrated in regards to present day Holy Crusading--now, it's more dangerous in the political arena than the battlefield.

So your happy that a few stray bombs blow up this hospital or a convoy of civilians are destroyed just so that your country whose policies are not actually known for making perfect sense and are probably some of the most immoral in the history of nations can sleep well at night? Not to mention the oil companies that now help extract Iraq's oil for them.? What am I saying of course your happy!

Quote:
this week we had a Rector burn passages of the bible because he did not like them.


One man, hardly a damning case...against anything.
Have you actually read the Bible? Did you attend Sunday School classes? I have and did, we were asked not to attend because my brothers and I could not get our brains around, The book of genesis, Adam & Eve if your not aware are supposed to have started the human race all those years ago......errr right OK. Why is it acceptable to impregnate a woman with the holy spirit but its a sin to commit adultery, why is it OK to sin through out the week and get forgiven on Sunday. Surely you could enlighten me on those points.

Quote:
please no one start talking about Democracy as there is no such thing


I mean...really.

Quote:
example we five have decided you four will obey these rules no matter how you feel about them.


A gross oversimplification of how laws are ratified; democracy. However, a civilization needs rules and those that enforce them, unless you're an Anarchist, which itself is a bunch of bullshit.
I don't believe there is anything wrong in questioning those that have the power to rule over many others just because they pertain to have biggest gun. I wonder how many nations would cry out and I am sure you not fully aware of how much hate there is in the world for Western Countries and I am not surprised why to be honest.

Quote:
To enforce them we have a group of people that will enforce them with other rules should you disobey..........


Find an island and become a hermit. I would except America would probably find oil on it and declare it and me as a haven for terrorists...........
You have used intellect to help embarrass me but and I really don't care if you accept my answers



[/quote]

Anton Lavey explained that it was right to question everything if we felt it did not feel right.
I do.
However if your perfectly comfortable with the actions of your nations Troops (including when some troops have committed murder, torture, rape) Your nations policies even when their reasons were not accurate, Iraq, (weapons of mass destruction) "Watch out he has a pea shooter"
Or not assisting rebels in one country but doing so in another (why?) then good for you but me, I sleep well at night knowing I don't believe the crap the government of the country that I was born in preaches.
_________________________
That which does not kill us makes us stronger........

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#456552 - 07/24/11 02:56 AM Re: Serial Killers [Re: verszou]
LordAaron Offline


Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 7
Loc: North Wales UK
Originally Posted By: verszou
Originally Posted By: LordAaron

These types of people help make and define the society I live in & please no one start talking about Democracy as there is no such thing for how can there be?


At least you were "kind" enough to prefix your statement with "please" - but really that's just sugar-coating the fact that you want to determine the basis on which to have an argument by saying what is allowed and not allowed in the debate. It's always a sign of intellectual laziness.

Further "how can there be" is really argument from personal incredulity i.e. "If I can't think of this, then it does not exist".

So basically, if you're too lazy to refute something, you ask beforehand to have it withdrawn from the debate?


I am kind, modest too, but are you saying there is such a thing as Democracy? True Democracy where every one has a vote on all decisions that effect the nation of that person? We the people were not asked by the UK government as to whether UK troops should join US troops in entering Iraq, Afghanistan assisting the rebels in Libya, etc......etc..... Do not even think of using verbal verbatim here to prove how narrow minded some Satanists are like its been mentioned here on this very site before just because you call yourselves Satanists does not make you one not if your prepared to bend over lube up and take whatever drivel a government gives its people.

I truly believe the Church of Satan is in us but only if we are true to ourselves if you members here are satisfied with what your governments are doing then OK but don't expect everyone else to think like you do.
_________________________
That which does not kill us makes us stronger........

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#456586 - 07/24/11 02:32 PM Re: Serial Killers [Re: LordAaron]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2333
Loc: East Coast, USA.
Holy fucking shit, I think you have officially won the award for the greatest missing of points, misconstruing of words, presumptuous projections about my integrity, anti-American bashing and downright contextual butchery that I have ever had the honor of being the butt of.

Kudos for that, I don't think it could have been done any better.

For the sake of the moderators, I'll just leave it as is.

laugh
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a personís faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





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