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#427376 - 07/24/10 05:41 PM Just out of curiosity
Hatred_Incarnate Offline


Registered: 03/26/09
Posts: 124
I was wondering what you guys and gals thought of this pentagram I made. It's 3/8th's inch round stock I arc welded together in my driveway and subsequently spray painted red.

Any and all comments/suggestions are welcome


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Photo 1.jpg


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#427377 - 07/24/10 05:44 PM Re: Just out of curiosity [Re: Hatred_Incarnate]
M.D. Roche Offline
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Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
Will this be placed on top of a Christmas tree?

The tips should be more pointy.
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#427379 - 07/24/10 05:55 PM Re: Just out of curiosity [Re: M.D. Roche]
Hatred_Incarnate Offline


Registered: 03/26/09
Posts: 124
I wish I could make the tips pointier, but unfortunately my chop saw doesn't cut to a 150º angle. But that being said, I could use my band saw to achieve such a steep angle.

Thank you for the feedback
_________________________
Ignorance may be bliss, but knowledge is power.
-Me (I think)
Thanks to denial, I'm immortal.
-Fry Futurama
Crocodilians take better care of their young then a lot of parents I know.
-Dr. Brady Barr

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#427382 - 07/24/10 06:02 PM Re: Just out of curiosity [Re: Hatred_Incarnate]
M.D. Roche Offline
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Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 513
Loc: Albany, New York
Now that I think of it, I would love to see some examples of Satanic Christmas trees (oh, the irony!)
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#427389 - 07/24/10 07:36 PM Re: Just out of curiosity [Re: Hatred_Incarnate]
Discipline Offline
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Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
I am more interested in the decor of that room you're in. It looks well designed.
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#427398 - 07/24/10 10:00 PM Re: Just out of curiosity [Re: Hatred_Incarnate]
Diwanna Offline


Registered: 01/19/09
Posts: 128
Loc: Upland
Maybe you could weld some sort of spikes on the ends to achieve the points. It also looks like it could use a bit of fit and finish, but maybe that's glare from the picture. Is this your first one? Not a bad start I must say.
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#427400 - 07/24/10 10:19 PM Re: Just out of curiosity [Re: Hatred_Incarnate]
DanielM Offline



Registered: 07/20/10
Posts: 24
Loc: Kintuhkee, Yew-Ess-Ay
Originally Posted By: Hatred_Incarnate
It's 3/8th's inch round stock I arc welded together


Whoosh -- way over my head! If I tried to do something like that, I'd probably end up trying to do it with Krazy Glue and making a mess of it ...

I agree, I think points would be better, but as it is I wouldn't mind having that on top of my Christmas tree.
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#427404 - 07/24/10 11:28 PM Re: Just out of curiosity [Re: DanielM]
Hatred_Incarnate Offline


Registered: 03/26/09
Posts: 124
Thank you for the comments. They were helpful and, in Daniel's case, amusing.


Discipline:
That room behind Me is our families living room. It took 20 years to get to this stage, and who knows what we'll do to it in another 20.

Diwanna:
There is a LOT of glare from my webcam in that picture, but it could still be better. It's actually my second attempt. The first one neglected to take into account that in the real world, there are three dimensions, as opposed to the two dimensions on paper. Suffice it to say, the first one was a spectacular failure. And as to adding on the spikes, it's almost as much effort doing that as opposed to making a new improved version altogether.

And Daniel:
I've been working with metal for over 5 years now. I started blacksmithing when I was 14 and learned how to weld when I was 17. This is all second nature to me now.
_________________________
Ignorance may be bliss, but knowledge is power.
-Me (I think)
Thanks to denial, I'm immortal.
-Fry Futurama
Crocodilians take better care of their young then a lot of parents I know.
-Dr. Brady Barr

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#427501 - 07/26/10 02:18 PM Re: Just out of curiosity [Re: Hatred_Incarnate]
Bill_M Offline
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Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: Hatred_Incarnate
I wish I could make the tips pointier, but unfortunately my chop saw doesn't cut to a 150º angle. But that being said, I could use my band saw to achieve such a steep angle.

Where exactly would you be making a 150º angle? The lines should cross at 108º, and the points are at 36º (the supplement of which is 144º).
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#427506 - 07/26/10 04:24 PM Re: Just out of curiosity [Re: Bill_M]
PsychOff Offline


Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 51
Back at school I was an avid workshop designer, loved working with plastics, woods and metals, making grand, extravagant joinery. My passions lie elsewhere now but this is something I'd like to return to one day as a hobby.

One thing about metal is its very forgiving (unless your dealing with stainless steel and such), smash it, melt it, twist it, and you can still make a decent finish with it. Due to the pentagram's precise angles you would need precision cutting tools; I don't know what tools you have at your disposal but as metal is such good fun to work with... I recommend a grinder. Cut the rods to size then lock them in a vice and carefully grind those edges to achieve those flat steep angles, stopping and starting to check your not going overboard, bit of a black art yes, but something to enjoy^^

Then to get them to join, again I don't know your tools but welding is too powerful and oversized for such a small thing (unless you made it bigger) and the protective masks constrict your vision too much. So I recommend braising it; blow-torch and thin strips of brass (has a lower melting point than steel) and create an outer bond on the joins, making it very rigid. Welding is stronger but at those sizes it won't matter. Braising is nice also because you can undo, welding makes more damage if you try to undo a mistake as it fuses the atoms together.

Lastly, since the rods are crossing one another I can see the two rods creating the middle V shape had to be lifted over; if you want it flat, cut them up to place in between or cut a groove on the rods where they cross paths.

Hope that helps, been ages since I thought about this stuff so I may be a little rusty (no pun intended).

HS!


Edited by PsychOff (07/26/10 04:28 PM)
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#427507 - 07/26/10 04:53 PM Re: Just out of curiosity [Re: PsychOff]
DanielM Offline



Registered: 07/20/10
Posts: 24
Loc: Kintuhkee, Yew-Ess-Ay
Originally Posted By: PsychOff
Then to get them to join, again I don't know your tools but welding is too powerful and oversized for such a small thing (unless you made it bigger) and the protective masks constrict your vision too much. So I recommend braising it; blow-torch and thin strips of brass (has a lower melting point than steel) and create an outer bond on the joins, making it very rigid.


What about soldering? I've never done anything with welding, braising, or anything like that, but I have done a little bit of hobbyist electronics ... would that work for something like this? I mean, the parts are pretty small, and it's not like it's supporting any stresses other than its own weight.

Danny
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#427510 - 07/26/10 05:32 PM Re: Just out of curiosity [Re: DanielM]
PsychOff Offline


Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 51
Soldering uses tin, aluminum, zinc and alloys of it and really its designed for electronics and not much else; sometimes copper piping in households but soldering needs to have tight fits; it isn't really designed to bond stuff, its really a sealant or bridging electricity.

Brazing (I had spelt it wrong, my bad) is the one up from that, it can bond heavier metals together and the gaps of the joins don't have to be as close.

Welding you can have several inches in fact between joins. When Nuclear Submarines are built they have the tubular hulls in sections, put them together as close as possible then use high-class welders to fuse the sections together using a metal thats stronger than the hull itself then they test with ultra-sound and x-rays for imperfections... but Hatred_Incarnate isn't making a Nuclear Sub... I hope.

Sorry, I side-tracked, Brazing allows you to create good strong bonds, protective goggles are more visible, you can be closer and more accurate and you can amend mistakes. Soldering will not suffice, the weight of the mild-steel which I assume Hatred_Incarnate is using as he spray-painted it, is too heavy alone, that is stress enough.

But getting back to the red pentagram which I like, Hatred wants improvements with what he's got. Getting Brazing tools will be harder than getting a grinder I think, however to be honest Hatred, do it again but bigger, make one big enough to hang on your wall I say, that way the size of it will allow space for more accuracy using simple tools like a welder and grinder.

DanielM, I understand that even if you make perfect fits on the rods to shape the pentagram, logically I can't see it working; soldering melts a weak metal on top of a barely hot metal; with Brazing you heat up the joins red/yellow-hot to increase bonding. Not trying to disrespect your soldering idea, soldering is a fantastic skill to have, but its designed for miniature high-performance stuff.
_________________________
They say the Light brings you truth and the Darkness only serves to tempt you;
I say the Light blinds you from the truth and the Darkness forces you to see, smell, listen, feel and think better.

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#427515 - 07/26/10 05:43 PM Re: Just out of curiosity [Re: PsychOff]
DanielM Offline



Registered: 07/20/10
Posts: 24
Loc: Kintuhkee, Yew-Ess-Ay
Originally Posted By: PsychOff
Not trying to disrespect your soldering idea, soldering is a fantastic skill to have, but its designed for miniature high-performance stuff.


LOL Don't worry about it; I'll freely admit I'm clueless on things like this. I've done my share of circuit boards, spliced PC power cables, etc. but nothing beyond that. I was just curious, and appreciate the explanation.
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#427518 - 07/26/10 05:49 PM Re: Just out of curiosity [Re: DanielM]
PsychOff Offline


Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 51
Your most welcome. If we're desperate we can ask Jamie Hyneman from MythBusters, bet his mustache would wiggle with enthusiasm explaining all this better than I.
_________________________
They say the Light brings you truth and the Darkness only serves to tempt you;
I say the Light blinds you from the truth and the Darkness forces you to see, smell, listen, feel and think better.

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#427531 - 07/26/10 06:16 PM Re: Just out of curiosity [Re: DanielM]
Hatred_Incarnate Offline


Registered: 03/26/09
Posts: 124
Bill: When I said I needed a 150º angle (which I got off one of my drawings so it's not the most precise measurement) I was thinking to only make the one rod at what would actually be at a 144º angle. But now that you mention it, I like your idea better. It would make for a stronger joint. Thank you.

PsychOff: The most precise tool I have is a metal band saw. It has an adjustable clamp for cutting stock at an angle up to 45º. I also have grinders, bench and hand held. I'll give it all a shot. I used an arc welder for this one. I like it and I'm decent at it because it is big. I'm horrible at finessing things. And I never took a class for gas welding, whereas with arc I have. Although I have been experimenting with gas a little bit and I will certainly give brazing a shot. Also I don't have a problem seeing it as I only weld one joint at a time then take my mask off and throughly inspect it. And undoing an arc weld is quite difficult. I've made my fair share of mistakes and had to do that, which is now why I'm very careful. As for needing to make it flatter, I agree. The idea I had was to lay it all together on top of itself, mark where they need to be flat, then heat it up in my forge and pound them somewhat flat (I am a blacksmith after all). That would be easier (for me at least) then cutting them into a bunch of small pieces, keeping track of them, and securing them in place in the proper spot. Thank you for the insight though.
Also, I think that pun should be intentional as I absolutely LOVE them. The bigger the groan the better the pun in my book.

And Daniel: Soldering would technically work, but it would require A LOT of work if done with a soldering iron and wouldn't be as strong as the afore mentioned methods. Your best bet to solder something like this would be to use a torch (a simple hand held propane torch from a hardware store should work) and melt the solder onto the steel. You would also want to use acid based solder, as opposed to rosin core, which is what's supposed to be used for electronics.


Again, thank you all for your input, advice and opinions. This was just a rough idea I had and put it together in about 30 minutes. I will certainly take all of this into consideration as I make my third version of this. I will post a picture of the latest and hopefully greatest version of this when I am done. I hope to have this done by the end of the week.

Thank you again
_________________________
Ignorance may be bliss, but knowledge is power.
-Me (I think)
Thanks to denial, I'm immortal.
-Fry Futurama
Crocodilians take better care of their young then a lot of parents I know.
-Dr. Brady Barr

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