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#432038 - 09/14/10 10:46 PM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: reprobate]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: reprobate
For my part, all I'll say here is, I think bigotry and mass hysteria are much greater threats to our way of life than Muslim fanaticism.


Absolutely.

Granted, I *am* worried about Islamofascism, because I don't feel enough (sane) people and countries are seriously keeping an eye on it. Those in the public eye or public forum who are voicing their concerns and solutions tend to be completely stupid and utterly batshit insane, which just serves to further polarize the debate, and force middle-dwellers to side with one or the other extreme faction.

But, even when Islamofascism leaves the building, you still have countless other breeds and kinds of extremism, hysteria, and groupthink to contend with. Hell, even groups of perfectly average people can turn into rampaging mobs, given the proper incentives.

You also have to deal with the millions of people who think and speak in bumper stickers, and want to apply impulsive, quick-fix, yee-haw, ideologically-driven, bumper sticker solutions to complex, multi-faceted, potentially-long-term problems.

You certainly don't want to end up creating new terrorists, or new terrorist sympathizers, if you can help it. You really don't want to go propping rogue nations, or arming other factions of crazies, just because the enemy of your enemy is supposedly your friend. You ideally want to spend as little money, time, and lives as it takes to solve the problem in the long-term. You don't want to take or support actions that could end up eroding your own freedoms or liberties, or providing special interest groups or governments with the ability or excuse to do so. You have to be smart and thoughtful. You have to do your homework. You do ultimately have to be decisive, but you also can't be impulsive.

For example, this Quran-burning numbnut could conceivably get himself and/or members of his congregation killed--in which case, here's to one less screaming meamie on the planet.
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"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#432039 - 09/14/10 11:19 PM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: Unknown]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
No apology necessary! No harm and no foul. If my point still stands under a more rigorous conception of "mass hysteria", so much the better for me. Just don't hold me to it. wink
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#432040 - 09/14/10 11:22 PM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: reprobate]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Well I think that is part of it. But I don't think it is the whole of it.
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#432051 - 09/15/10 01:47 AM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: Morning Star]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3968
Loc: The Deep South
Stunts like these have only two results. One is to give Muslim extremists one more excuse (not that they need many) to attack us. And the other is to give bad name to people who are seriously worried about the gradual implantation of Sharia law in Western countries.

Some days ago I read about an alQaeda leader who thanked Allah for Terry Jones and asked for ten more like him. Why? Because he serves as a perfect recruiting tool.

Meanwhile, the pastor got what he wanted. Lots of free publicity for his previously unknown church and perhaps a few additions to his moribund congregation.

Basically a win-win deal between two different groups of assholes!
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You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
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#432052 - 09/15/10 01:48 AM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: Spelled Moon]
I'mPerfecting Offline


Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 221
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Spelled Moon
What I have found the most pitiful from the whole event, as someone watching it from outside ...

Again, the wars inside of a sandbox.
Or... What non-sense can we find and convince ourselves that it is worthy of fighting for? Behind what can we hide our human weakness so we can call it noble names and noble goals?

One Czech band has this line in their lyrics 'The Middle Ages aren't over, the Middle Ages continue', and when thinking of Islam (or anything else lacking the grasp of reality and healthy reasoning), I am finding those words 101% true.


Well said,

You have quite the way with words for describing wars. Your stance is well played, I admire your diffusion techniques. cool

Even though I am more inclined to run the hose in the sand box because I prefer to watch mud wrestling,but I won't pour gasoline.
It is one thing to discuss a comment with a person who has a neutral persuasion.
It is another ball game altogether when the person has picked sides on the topic, I won't touch it with a ten foot pole. Next time, I might just borrow a line or two, and talk them out of asking. laugh

HS
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"...And the truth that makes us laugh, will make you cry!"
"...Porcelain in a paper cup world."
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#432053 - 09/15/10 02:35 AM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: Delta]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 990
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: Delta
One might say that while Muslim fanatics from abroad are the greater threat to our lives, the local Christian fanatics are the greater threat to our way of life. The problem with that statement is that one's way of life comes to an abrupt end when one's life is ended. But it's also dangerous to discount the life-threatening danger of our own homegrown fanatics, be they local Christians, Muslims or some deranged Crowley nut. That said we need to keep perspective on the great skew on the graph: It's the Muslim extremists within our nation that concern me most, and the Christian extremists outside it that concern me least.


Actually, I’ve often thought that Islam is a bigger potential threat to our way of life. The thing about the "threat to our way of life” is that it is a cultural issue, and it doesn’t require such fanatical extremists to corrupt it. To me, any religious group that is not willing to abandon their spiritual mandate and properly integrate into secular society, at least with regards to dealing with issues and ideas that concern the general public, and public and cultural policy, is a threat to our way of life.

I honestly don’t have much problem with people who claim to be a part of a religion, but leave their faith and believes at home when they step outside (Sunday Catholics) and are essentially Christian ( or Muslim or Jewish or Buddhist) in name only. In my opinion, the closer that a spiritual religion’s followers can get to that, the better.

While there is no doubt that there are still Christian fanatics in this country, I see them more as a dying breed rather than a threat to our way of life. They’re making a lot of noise as they’re being blotted out. However, I have heard that Islam is growing very steadily around the world (if I’m mistaken about this, please correct me) and I find that to be a greater cause for concern.

I also agree with your point that closer proximity creates a greater threat to our lives and a way of life in general. Perhaps I’m more comfortable with Christianity because I’ve seen many examples of how it can be so easily watered down by a secular society and that gives me more hope for the future. From its very beginning, Christianity has been willing to adapt to, and make allowances for, whatever culture that it is trying to infiltrate and I think that lack of standards will eventually be its undoing. I get the impression that many of the Islamic religions are a lot less willing to compromise than that, and actively oppose that type of cultural integration.

And when individual elements of multicultural societies aren’t willing to compromise, the only other alternative is for people to begin killing each other. We can only hope that many of these people who are deciding to become “Muslims”, aren’t very good ones. coopdevil


Edited by John Prophet (09/15/10 02:49 AM)
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#432054 - 09/15/10 03:12 AM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: John Prophet]
Delta Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 6747
Loc: Nar
That was more a recapitulation of Warlock Reprobate than my own view, though I do agree with it to some extent. I do see Christianity as a greater threat to our "way of life" but only in a couple specific ways:

First, I mean our way with 'our' referring exclusively to Satanists living in the USA. Islam is taking over Europe like Kudzu in a way that tempts me to say "It can't happen here," a phrase we all know better than to use loosely. Many of the most vile reforms like Blasphemy laws and Sharia based laws are banned from the outset in the US (Not to say they might not weasel in somehow), this also applies to Christian based laws but is more effective with the later than the former simply because our culture here is so overwhelmed with a Christian mindset that laws work their way in without anyone noticing (Or if they do, like faith based initiatives, not enough people care to stop it). The way to create a Muslim Theocracy in the UK is far more blunt than the Christian Theocracy some would create here, it's even more subtle than the aforementioned Bush faith crap. It happens by the subtle 'good natured' and 'altruistic' legislation that people don't even realize is Christian in origin. Pentagonal Revisionism really nails it on the head for that one, "Religious beliefs secularized and incorporated into law". As more and more trends, not laws but trends, in government lean toward Christianity, Satanists have to walk farther and farther toward political goals, to find pockets of suitable culture, must take greater measures to protect their wealth (Just wait for 'Compulsory Charity' laws) and to protect their children from indoctrination. Satanists can overcome all of this, but it's damn annoying and in the end, what's annoying to us is the only evil worth considering. The only effect of Muslim Terrorism on many American Satanists has been heavier airport security, while the effect of less violent Christian nutjobs is the very fabric of our culture.

Look over that list Rev. Bill_M posted- Islam is by far more violent and terrible, but how many of those 2010 attacks are on US soil? That brings us to point 2-

Quantity and Proximity. The US doesn't have that many Muslims. It is flooded with Christians. Even if more Muslims tend to be extremists than Christians, the scale is so unbalanced that I suspect there are more would-be-violent Christians on American soil than would-be-violent Muslims. The low incidence of Christian Violence here, given the proportions, is actually a testament to how much more virulent Islam is than Christianity. But the fact remains, the majority rules here and the majority is Christian. Muslims aren't gonna vote up shit anytime soon. The role of proximity is obvious, and call me a cold old fart but I don't care half as much for Muslims in Pakistan blowing up thousands of Muslims in Pakistan as I do about one Muslim shooting two Satanists here (Cuz we're like the only two Satanists in this town). When I consider my own personal risk, I see maybe 2 shifty Muslims a year. I see 10 shifty Christians a day. I have never seen a Muslim cop, but I've met several evangelical police officers and if they got a warrant to search my house, I'd be surprised if they didn't execute me on the spot.

So in those two ways, I agree with the basic concept Reprobate advocated, however, when it comes to the topics discussed in this thread and the context in which I believe they were arguing, I'm closer to Phineas's view. I mentioned Bill_M's list and how most of the real shit is far from home, we need to keep it that way! Ignoring Phineas's assertion is far more dangerous than to ignore Reprobate's. However true the Warlock's point is, Phineas's is the one that keeps us from a bomb a day in every city. We must never lose sight of it. Still, Reprobate has highlighted a very real problem. I'm not back and forth on this, I'm not on the fence, but different parts of my views are on different sides of the fence, if that makes any sense.

Anybody want a peanut?
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#432056 - 09/15/10 03:37 AM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: Delta]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2151
Your views are well understood; they aren't confusing at all. Nor do they seem "on the fence" to me.

Here's what I'll add, from my own opinion. I looked at the extensive list Reverend Bill linked to, and was surprised how few of them took place in Europe. In fact, most of them took place in countries where Islam has already been for hundreds of years.

And yet Americans are dying in those places. I do not care if the number of Americans dying is far less than the number of Muslim civilians or enemies. The fact remains Americans have died and are dying in Afghanistan and Iraq. Through the powers of NATO we've made sure it isn't just Americans, either. Also Belgian, British, Canadian, etc.

Supposedly these engagements are to protect our freedom here. I don't buy that. It would seem to me that before we brought the fight to them, the denizens of Afghanistan and Iraq were happy being bigoted hysterics in countries where those qualities are not only acceptable, but the norm. The sloganized notion that these people hate us because we aren't bigoted and hysterical is so wrong it's funny, and then just sad.

Islam in Europe is an entirely different issue. I wish them the best, but to be blunt they did it to themselves.

In America we have rednecks with guns, many of whom proudly sport t-shirts, bumperstickers, and mugs all projecting the same sentiment as seen on the originally posted photo: Fuck Islam. They don't have a chance here.
_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#432060 - 09/15/10 04:40 AM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: Delta]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 990
Loc: My suburban lair
After reading your explanation, I realize that it’s possible that I was underestimating the power that Christianity still has in this country, and perhaps over estimating the potential power that Islam could have.

But one thing that I’d like to point out is that there are many people out there right now in the U.S., searching for increased structure and “meaning” in their lives. Combined this with people’s inherit need for masochism and I think that Islam can deliver a much “purer” version of many of those terrible things that the herd finds appealing about Christianity.

I’m not suggesting that the majority of the country will suddenly turn Muslim overnight, but I’d be willing to bet that we will see a continuing increase of the younger generations of Americans exploring Islam; which could have some dramatic long-term effects (aside from craving the rigidly structured “father like” aspects of the religion, there’s also the added benefit of rebelling against their parent’s Christianity and the egalitarian notion of excepting another culture’s “exotic” religion). I also can’t help noticing that there seems to be a move within some groups in the U.S., to try to embrace Islam (quite possibly as a reaction to others who wish to demonize it).

The way that I see it, it’s just a matter of human nature. It seems to be the inevitable next step for people who are disenchanted with Christianity and want something “stronger” for their religious fix. I think that it would be a mistake to assume that a Muslim presence couldn’t rapidly increase in the United States within a relatively (for a religion) short period of time.
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#432062 - 09/15/10 04:52 AM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: John Prophet]
Delta Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 6747
Loc: Nar
Agreed absolutely. One more reason I think ridicule is one of our greatest weapons. If it's different and pure, people will want it. If it's exotic and despised, they'll want it more. But nobody wants to be laughed at. The best way to ensure local homegrown extremists fail to connect with Islam, violet Christianity, or any other destructive-application philosophy is to make them all look like stupid silly idiots.

Burning the Koran makes people revile the burner and consider the burnt. But laughter deflates them utterly. Perhaps this is why they're afraid of Muhammad cartoons.

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#432065 - 09/15/10 05:15 AM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: Delta]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 990
Loc: My suburban lair
Exactly! I think that this is one of the reasons why many religions (including parts of Christianity) have often tried to ban visual depictions and images of various things.

Images have power! And can take the mystery and power away from these religions and their deities. You’re not supposed to see the man behind the curtain and you’re certainly not supposed to see him being screwed by a camel or crying in diapers. grin

Propaganda can be a very good thing.
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#432066 - 09/15/10 05:17 AM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: Delta]
Machismo Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Delta
I'm not back and forth on this, I'm not on the fence, but different parts of my views are on different sides of the fence, if that makes any sense.


Nuanced thinking is necessary, I think, for a serious strategic or tactical discussion, or a serious philosophical one.

I will define the short term as today plus fifty years. Anything farther in the future than that will be the long term.

In the short term, Islam is a greater threat to an American Satanist's physical survival than Fundamentalist Christianity, but Fundamentalist Christianity is a greater threat to an American Satanist's quality of life than Islam. I say this because (a) Islamic jihadists want to kill Americans right now and and Fundamentalist Christians don't; and (b) Fundamentalist Christians are impacting American politics right now and Islamic jihadists as citizens, voters, politicians, and demagogues, are not.

In the long term, Fundamentalist Christianity could become as great a threat to an American Satanist's physical survival as Islam, and Islam could become as great a threat to an American Satanist's quality of life as Fundamentalist Christianity. I say this because (a) American is becoming more and more atheist, and once a certain threshold is reached, political maneuvering will stop working for Fundamentalist Christians, and the failure of political tactics is often the trigger for initiating violent tactics; and (b) Muslims are coming to America in ever greater numbers and breeding like rabbits, so they will eventually become a significant voting bloc, due to the invincibility of math.

In the long term as I have defined it, I will probably be dead - but maybe not, given the accelerating progress of medicine. If we take as a proposition that a majority of us on this message board may be alive in the long term as I have defined it, then logic and pragmatism will dictate that we view both Islam and Fundamentalist Christianity as threats both physical and cultural and oppose both in both arenas. The best way to do this, I think, is to support science and atheism in whatever ways we find congenial. Science and atheism are the left jab and right cross that will clobber both Islam and Fundamentalist Christianity, but only if properly executed, which means, with all of our body weight behind them.


Edited by Machismo (09/15/10 06:54 AM)
Edit Reason: Clarified element (b) of the second sentence of the third paragaph.
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#432071 - 09/15/10 06:12 AM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: Machismo]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2151
Originally Posted By: Machismo
Islam is a greater threat to an American Satanist's physical survival than Fundamentalist Christianity

I have to disagree. The vast majority of people who could harm or kill you are Christian. I'm not saying you'd ever do anything to earn a redneck's contempt, but in a hypothetical situation that you did, and he shot you, I'm willing to bet said redneck was some brand of Christianity. Furthermore, this man probably has a seething hatred for Islam. Most of the Muslims here are actually very docile in comparison. In fact, it's been observed that Muslims in North America have a very low track record of stirring up shit.

Now, as for the Muslims out there, you have to understand the theater of conflicts and relationships the west (specifically the USA) has had with them in order to appreciate the finer points of my disagreement.

The country with the highest Muslim population is Indonesia, in southeast Asia. Aside from them, the vast majority of the Muslim world resides in what we call the "Middle East" and northern Africa. A few of these countries have massive oil reserves, and Persia (Iran) happened to be fucked over each and every way for it. Once the British left Persia, this left them with a huge resentment for western traditions, and understandably so. A similar situation almost happened in Saudi Arabia when oil was discovered there. Well, turns out oil is very important to us, and now those nations which store the oil are in a unique position of power.

Afghanistan. Soviets invade, America no like Soviet. Secretly fund Afghans to kick ass. America and Afghanistan best buds.

Kuwait. Iraq invade. America say fuck that, we savez you. We savez with great might, kick many ass. We has lots of troops. Needs place to store. Oh! Saudi Arabia sez OK? Kewl. We storez troops in Saudi Arabia. But fundie Muslims no like. Say is bad for holy sites. Americans infidels. Get troops off landz. dis in 1991 LOL.

Since then anti-American sentiments have only risen in these places. It culminated on 9/11, which I think is an obvious and direct response to a continued American presence in Saudi Arabia.

Naturally, we wanted blood. So we go after Osama, who used to be our pal back in the day. Trouble is now nobody knows where the fuck he is. The sad part is the current situation doesn't even call for anyone admitting that, because they don't have to. The United States government has already pretty much admitted that Osama is no longer their concern. The "concerns" are rebuilding Iraq (cleaning up our own shit), and fighting off random dickheads in Afghanistan.

None of the Muslims overseas are capable of even looking at you the wrong way. The USA got its rocks off in a tit-for-tat and lost count. The whole idea that foreign Muslims hate you for your freedom is a myth. The truth is that they don't give a shit about your freedom. What they do give a shit about is invading soldiers, and until there are no soldiers to shoot at, they will continue to do so.

In a purely diplomatic sense, the USA has made little to no sense in its engagements with the Muslim world. On the other hand, the Muslim world, however cruel, has acted logically; when you examine each side's motives, it is easy to see where many of the terrorist groups are coming from. It is very difficult to even begin to understand where America is coming from.

Now, as an American, and as a Satanist, I hate Islam. I don't want anything to do with it. I am not in favor of completely disregarding Islam as a threat. But I will say that the threat has been MASSIVELY blown out of proportion.
_________________________
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#432080 - 09/15/10 07:21 AM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: NapalmNick]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 990
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: NapalmNick
Since then anti-American sentiments have only risen in these places. It culminated on 9/11, which I think is an obvious and direct response to a continued American presence in Saudi Arabia.

...The whole idea that foreign Muslims hate you for your freedom is a myth. The truth is that they don't give a shit about your freedom. What they do give a shit about is invading soldiers, and until there are no soldiers to shoot at, they will continue to do so.


Although I’m sure that the presence of American soldiers is a factor in contributing to their hostility, I doubt that they’d just leave us alone if we left them alone.

There actually is some precedent for the Islamic world greatly disliking western culture based on our differences. (Read this: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1253796)

They hate our lawns and our revealing clothing! grin

The way I see it, some of these groups just want to take over. They have no tolerance for anything that is too different from them and, to put it bluntly, they don’t like the fact that we exist at all.


Edited by John Prophet (09/15/10 07:56 AM)
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#432081 - 09/15/10 07:25 AM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: NapalmNick]
Machismo Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: NapalmNick
The vast majority of people who could harm or kill you are Christian. I'm not saying you'd ever do anything to earn a redneck's contempt, but in a hypothetical situation that you did, and he shot you, I'm willing to bet said redneck was some brand of Christianity.


True, Nick, but his Christianity would be irrelevant to the situation. He wouldn't be shooting me because he thinks Jesus wants him to. This is where that lovely word qua so favored by Ayn Rand has its uses. The Christian qua Christian is no physical threat to me right now in America.

Man, am I a word nut. blush

Quote:
Furthermore, this man probably has a seething hatred for Islam. Most of the Muslims here are actually very docile in comparison. In fact, it's been observed that Muslims in North America have a very low track record of stirring up shit.


True, because they're numerically trivial and they know it. Plus a lot of them are from Turkey, which has been experimenting the last few decades with secularism. But 9/11 happened, after all, and something like it could happen again. Why there hasn't been a follow-up here on American soil is debated from various perspectives, and I won't jump into that pool on this thread. I just have to think it's true that if some religious nut blows something up in America because he's a religious nut, he will probably be Muslim.

Quote:
Since then anti-American sentiments have only risen in these places. It culminated on 9/11, which I think is an obvious and direct response to a continued American presence in Saudi Arabia.


Yes - plus our alliance with Israel.

Quote:
None of the Muslims overseas are capable of even looking at you the wrong way.


Except that one time when they managed to knock some buildings down. How they accomplished that yet today seem incapable of blowing up a bus over here - nope, not jumping into that pool on this thread. cool


Quote:
The truth is that they don't give a shit about your freedom. What they do give a shit about is invading soldiers, and until there are no soldiers to shoot at, they will continue to do so.


They also want Israel to cease to exist as a nation. Plus they want Islam to be the state religion of every nation on the planet. We need to remember that last part.

Quote:
It is very difficult to even begin to understand where America is coming from.


Oil, Israel, military contractors, and the Orwell/Bradbury strategy of always keeping a foreign war front and center on the television.

Quote:
Now, as an American, and as a Satanist, I hate Islam. I don't want anything to do with it. I am not in favor of completely disregarding Islam as a threat. But I will say that the threat has been MASSIVELY blown out of proportion.


Why today they seem incapable of blowing up a bus over here - nope, not jumping into that pool on this thread. cool
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