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#432089 - 09/15/10 09:08 AM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: Delta]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
To be absolutely as clear as I can be here:

I never denied that Muslim terrorism is a threat to Western lives. It is currently a greater threat than white domestic anti-fed terrorism of the McVeigh stripe (though I wouldn't underestimate that), and certainly a much greater threat than military action from any foreign power.

My statement was about what I consider to be a nearer and more widespread domestic threat to our way of life, the one fanatics want to kill us for, the one that many people have died to protect.

My life is under a certain level of threat. My basic liberties, those of people I count as friends, and the peace and order of my community are also under threat from people who claim they are "protecting" our civilization from the first threat. I'm not one to give up essential liberties for temporary security.

I also think we have to be frank and honest with ourselves about the extent to which Muslim anti-Western fanaticism has been fueled by Western anti-Muslim bigotry in the past, and will continue to be so fueled in the future. Yes, that knife cuts both ways, their fanaticism has also fueled our bigotry; but the side of the equation that is under our control is our attitude toward them, and adopting the right attitude now is the key to a long-term positive outcome later. The more heavy-handed and indiscriminate our reaction, the worse things will become. The more lines in the sand we insist on drawing, the fewer allies we'll find on our side when we draw the last one. If we paint all Muslims with the same brush as terrorists, and impose burdensome hurdles and double standards on their efforts to distinguish themselves from terrorists, we are creating a situation where their interests align more with those of the terrorists than with ours. Why would they lift a finger to support us, if we treat them as mental retards and walking biohazards -- or, dare I say it, as demons?

Those are my views, about as explicitly stated as I can make them right now. I hadn't intended to say this much here, but I want to lay it all out to prevent something wrong from being imputed to me.


Edited by reprobate (09/15/10 09:40 AM)
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#432093 - 09/15/10 10:51 AM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: Old_Pig]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: Old_Pig
Stunts like these have only two results. One is to give Muslim extremists one more excuse (not that they need many) to attack us. And the other is to give bad name to people who are seriously worried about the gradual implantation of Sharia law in Western countries.

Some days ago I read about an alQaeda leader who thanked Allah for Terry Jones and asked for ten more like him. Why? Because he serves as a perfect recruiting tool.

Meanwhile, the pastor got what he wanted. Lots of free publicity for his previously unknown church and perhaps a few additions to his moribund congregation.

Basically a win-win deal between two different groups of assholes!


Precisely. This is very much in line with what I said above, but in fewer words.

Originally Posted By: reprobate

The more heavy-handed and indiscriminate our reaction, the worse things will become.


Exactly.

Of course, if we're not decisive and firm enough, that could also end up doing us in, like it's doing certain European countries in, slowly. So, there's an incredibly fine line to walk here.

Originally Posted By: reprobate
Why would they lift a finger to support us, if we treat them as mental retards and walking biohazards -- or, dare I say it, as demons?


Herein lies the crux of the dilemma, for me, and it demonstrates why neither Noam Chomsky or Sean Hannity will be coming up with a real, workable solution to this problem any time soon.

I think there will be many times when we will have to be willing and able to identify problem people and problem ideologies without brazenly calling them out, in the same way that wolves will often circle their prey in a wide arc, because going straight through the middle would cause the prey to panic and scatter.

Originally Posted By: John Prophet
But one thing that I’d like to point out is that there are many people out there right now in the U.S., searching for increased structure and “meaning” in their lives. Combined this with people’s inherit need for masochism and I think that Islam can deliver a much “purer” version of many of those terrible things that the herd finds appealing about Christianity.


About a year ago, I actually read an article about fundamentalist Christians who had converted to Islam, because they were searching for a religion with even HIGHER and more stringent standards and requirements.

Well, and notice how a couple of the Islamic terrorist threats in the news this year came from women who, for all intents and purposes, appeared to be your standard hillbilly white-trash. It's quite plausible that Islam could become the hot new way of advertising (as well as trying to combat or overcome) one's sense of disenfranchisement--not just for Arabs or Persians, but whites, as well!
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#432100 - 09/15/10 11:52 AM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: TrojZyr]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 995
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: TrojZyr
Herein lies the crux of the dilemma, for me, and it demonstrates why neither Noam Chomsky or Sean Hannity will be coming up with a real, workable solution to this problem any time soon.

I think there will be many times when we will have to be willing and able to identify problem people and problem ideologies without brazenly calling them out, in the same way that wolves will often circle their prey in a wide arc, because going straight through the middle would cause the prey to panic and scatter.

I think that you’re correct about that being the appropriate approach in many instances; but as you pointed out, the hard part is figuring out exactly how to do that in a way that will yield beneficial results. Unfortunately, that mixture of a cautious and yet subtly proactive approach seems very counterintuitive for an issue like this.

Originally Posted By: TrojZyr
Well, and notice how a couple of the Islamic terrorist threats in the news this year came from women who, for all intents and purposes, appeared to be your standard hillbilly white-trash. It's quite plausible that Islam could become the hot new way of advertising (as well as trying to combat or overcome) one's sense of disenfranchisement--not just for Arabs or Persians, but whites, as well!

Yes and I strongly suspect that we’ll be seeing a lot more of that sort of thing in the future.


Edited by John Prophet (09/15/10 11:53 AM)
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#432121 - 09/15/10 03:25 PM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: John Prophet]
XUL Offline


Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 238
Loc: Oslo, Norway
The thing is; if Jesus is living in your heart - as that famous flame of love - and God knows all that you're doing -- then why isn't it enough to download a PDF Koran from the internet and then unceremonoiously delete it afterwards? It serves the same purpose as buying a paperback copy in a bookstore and then lighting it up with matches. God and Jesus will know. So who's the great big show for?

As far as monotheists go - and I do think they're a bunch of sick fucking wackos - I find that I respect the Muslims the most. Not because their thinking is all that sound but simply because they usually pracise what they preach to a higher degree than any of the others. It's like facing two different psychotic lunatics: One who's a completely incoherent street bum and another one who's got class.

I believe much of the tragedy with the Muslims - and the reason for today's conflicts - is that their natural leaders got killed off by various outside forces who wanted their oil and whatnot stuff. So all that they're left with is what amounts to the same as any Flaming Sword Of Joshua type of pentecostal Christian church in the west.



Edited by XUL (09/15/10 03:28 PM)
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#432125 - 09/15/10 04:05 PM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: reprobate]
Delta Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 6751
Loc: Nar
Those are, of course, the points on which I stated I agreed with you (Including the semantic "way of life") plus one more-

You only have to look at the numbers to see how Americans get killed by Muslim extremists. 3000 over here, 6729 over there as a result. That's far from saying it never happens here, a third of all Americans murdered by Muslim extremists have been killed on US soil thanks to one major incident. But more than twice that have been killed in the war on terror. The critical question becomes why. Are we fighting terrorism because our leaders are Christian? Does the Christian extremism of Bush and those who elected him really rank the top factor in our current embroilments? If you'd asked me in 2001 I'd have said absolutely, Bush is a theocrat and evil and blah blah blah.

But I'm not so certain any more. I can't so easily call it pure religious jingoism. I won't say it's over oil or revenge or WMD, but I honestly don't think it has much to do with the religious difference any more, nor the US painting all Muslims as terrorists, nor has the common US perception of all Muslims as terrorists particularly effected the course of our wars from the standpoint of highly regulated and publicized war policy. The real cause and problem both abroad and at home is-

Actually that's diverging from the point of this thread and delving into politics, so I'll go ahead and post the later half of my reply in that forum right now.
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#432127 - 09/15/10 04:26 PM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: John Prophet]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2153
I started to type up a full reply to John Prophet and Machismo, but realized that it was very, very political. So, if anyone wants to know the nitty gritty of my particular views on this subject, I guess PM will have to suffice.
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#432131 - 09/15/10 04:49 PM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: Jupiter]
Jupiter Offline


Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 99
Hi,

This thread is very interesting to me, and i find it sort of informative too, I'd like to share some of my thought on the subject as someone who live in an Islamic country.

The way i view it, that Muslims has much power here, the government knows it and that's why since the so-called revolution which turned the country from monarchy into a republic, leaders of the country always prosecuted The Muslim Brotherhood. I feel that Islam is a dying faith, and its final days are coming thus they cry the loudest. Everyone one here knows that the "true Muslims" are liars and hypocrites, I deal with them everyday and they are the most people who I take care of because they are dishonest but playing the good guy.

As a someone who would like to see more freedom in my country, I'm glad that the country is moving toward a more secular government, recently hijab (neqab) was banned in universities. Muslims does not poses direct threat on me I can handle them, but there is a powerful political group that is working and working to control the country, this would be a true nightmare.

On a final note, no one has power over you unless you allow them.

Should you've a question regarding my post, do ask.
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#432132 - 09/15/10 04:50 PM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: TrojZyr]
Machismo Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: TrojZyr
It's quite plausible that Islam could become the hot new way of advertising (as well as trying to combat or overcome) one's sense of disenfranchisement--not just for Arabs or Persians, but whites, as well!


Wouldn't surprise me a bit. For one thing, Islam makes more sense than Christianity. Not much of an accomplishment, I'll grant you, but still, all you have to believe to be Muslim is that a Supreme Being created the universe, talked to man through Mohammed, wants us to behave a certain way, and doles out rewards and punishments based on whether we do. That's it. More than you or I might be willing to believe, but it's a hell of a lot simpler, more coherent, more straightforward, and more internally consistent than the jumble of gibberish that passes for Christian theology. Add to that the fact that Islam has balls, is in fact a warrior religion, veins pumping with testosterone, and the appeal grows. Add the anti-Jewish sentiment, and, for some, the appeal grows still more. Hell, for some, even the anti-American sentiment, if interpreted as aimed at the government rather than the citizens, could add to the appeal. You get to give the finger to your Christian parents, the feminists, the Jews, and the government, all in one fell swoop, and you can even explain your ideology while standing on one foot. The crescent moon might soon be the new swastika! cool
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#432133 - 09/15/10 04:50 PM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: Delta]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Yeah, I agree that anti-Muslim bigotry is a symptom of other problems going on, not a root cause. And the problems have been festering for a long time.

I didn't mean to give the impression that I think Christian extremists have a monopoly on anti-Muslim bigotry. The guys promoting book burning this month were Christian, but a lot of the bigotry also comes from atheists, especially in Europe.

For my part, I can only say, I'm not a Satanist because I hate Muslims (or Christians, etc.). I'm a Satanist because I disagree with them in some pretty basic ways. But I've found that there are people of all religions, including Muslims, who are willing to live and let live, or talk about those differences frankly and honestly and respectfully. Those people are worthwhile, more so than a lot of morons who come in here and try to pass themselves off as "elite" because they profess the same views as me. I'm not interested in sweeping insults. That's cheap and boring. It ignores the details, and you know me when it comes to details. Satanism has a long tradition of satire and shock, which I celebrate, but it's a fine line between that and baseless, ignorant baiting.
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#432150 - 09/15/10 08:59 PM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: TrojZyr]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
Just a quick note to Citizens Delta and Direktor.

Originally Posted By: TrojZyr
Well, and notice how a couple of the Islamic terrorist threats in the news this year came from women who, for all intents and purposes, appeared to be your standard hillbilly white-trash. It's quite plausible that Islam could become the hot new way of advertising (as well as trying to combat or overcome) one's sense of disenfranchisement--not just for Arabs or Persians, but whites, as well!


That has all the makings of a great B movie. whistle
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Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

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#432172 - 09/16/10 03:38 AM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: Lust]
XUL Offline


Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 238
Loc: Oslo, Norway
Originally Posted By: Tier Instinct
all the makings of a great B movie


Oh hell yeah! In the spirit of 70's "blacksploitation" movies, I'd love to see for instance a Muslim version of SHAFT... (Then on a second thought, aren't they doing that already in Bollywood?)
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#432174 - 09/16/10 03:51 AM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: Lust]
Delta Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 6751
Loc: Nar
Fatima Jones just wanted to praise Allah. But they had other ideas.

Redneck: "You Moose slims ain't welcome in this here county!" (Bang, shoots her parents)

But she survived, and now it's time for revenge.

Fatima: "There is no motherfucker like Allah, and I am his toughest bitch!" (Cocks gun, shot of car with name of Allah jumping over river)

Zuhoornatali Muhmajinamatar stars as Fatima Jones in: "Shahada 'Nuf Out Of You." (Fatima picks up a mujeheddin on her motorcycle)

Muja: We can't go yet, Fatima! Where's Achmed???
(Fatima pulls up her burqa to reveal another burqa)
Fatime: Achmed's dead baby, Achmed's dead.
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#432176 - 09/16/10 05:11 AM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: Delta]
Machismo Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Delta
Zuhoornatali Muhmajinamatar stars as Fatima Jones in: "Shahada 'Nuf Out Of You." (Fatima picks up a mujeheddin on her motorcycle)


But the mujeheddin should look like this guy. Aryan as all hell. Just put some words on his helmet, like -

Moho
Mofo

On the front of his shield, a crescent moon and the word, "Stoner," which won't mean what it normally would, but instead, describes this guy when he encounters, in his words, "Chicks who show tit."


Attachments
Crom.jpg


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#432265 - 09/17/10 04:13 AM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: Morning Star]
MagdaGraham Offline
CoS Priestess

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 13369
Loc: Scotland
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#432269 - 09/17/10 04:50 AM Re: Koran Book Burning [Re: Morning Star]
MoongleMoose Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 76
Loc: South O' Sydney
Quote:
''Well,'' said Billy-Bob Huxley, a leading Texan non-believer, ''look on the bright side; Dawkins will be happy for the royalties. And we figure the book is filled with truths that can't be burnt.''


Exactly.
Something that these fools obviously hadn't taken into account.

More to burning Richard Dawkins' books! More money he gets, more goes into the RDFRS (Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science), to which I have happily donated and continue to support.


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