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#435577 - 10/19/10 10:00 PM Re: Chlorinating the gene pool [Re: Adveser]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10146
This is possibly one of the more ignorant things I've read here in a while.

that assumes every person who does drugs will continue to do so forever

No, it doesn't. It assumes that punishment of drug users should be draconian. Do you believe we should go easy on murderers and rapists because we can't assume they will do so forever? Incidentally, in my mind I'm being rather lenient on drug users, since I advocate death for more serious offenses (including drug dealing).

it also assumes any drug use will affect children that have not been born yet, either directly or through genetics

You have got to be shitting me. Are you seriously going to waste even one breath arguing that drug users are fit to be parents? Or that using drugs while pregnant isn't among the most irresponsible things imaginable?

Some people will always be destitute, moreso from their psychological profile than their behaviour

What kind of bullshit is this? Now their psychology is separate from their behavior and is separate from their personal responsibility? Need I remind you of the Satanic golden rule: "Responsibility to the responsible?"

Further, the reasons why someone is worthless is irrelevant. If someone is born with some defect that predisposes them to violence, for example, that's no excuse for not dealing with them as a violent individual.

Other people can choose to stop boozing or whatever their affliction is or decide to do or not to do something.

Everyone has a choice. Also, often as not their pathetic sob story for why they waste their life is a weak one in light of the people who have endured very real hardship and didn't turn to drugs.

As for alcohol, you're conveniently ignoring a few things. For one, Satanism utterly condemns alcoholism in exactly the same terms as we condemn drug use. We also condemn wanton drunkeness and irresponsibility arising from excessive drinking. For another, unlike illegal drugs, alcohol can be consumed without becoming intoxicated. Find one guy who smokes dope or shoots up without any intent whatsoever of getting high - indeed, that defies the very point of drugs.

You're also attempting to use the temperance movement as some kind of reference point, which is a bit extreme. Ranks right up there with Reefer Madness for irrationality (as hardline as I am, even I recognize that that kind of propaganda is ridiculous). Which mainstream medical reference defines alcoholism so broadly that a casual drinker qualifies as an alcoholic?

Then of course there is the simple fact that alcohol is legal and other drugs are not. Breaking the law, even if you think it's a stupid law, is fucking retarded. In case you haven't noticed, prisons are full of druggies who apparently lacked the critical thinking skills to see that their habit has one unavoidable conclusion. Doesn't sound very smart to me.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#435583 - 10/20/10 12:17 AM Re: Chlorinating the gene pool [Re: Machismo]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: Machismo
Originally Posted By: TrojZyr
Brilliant! I don't think we could implement that kind of program here in the States--


They're based in the USA. Here's their web site: Project Prevention

Great idea, in my opinion.


Aha, I saw the 200 pounds and assumed that project had to be out of the U.K. Danke!

Originally Posted By: Anna
But calling sterilization charity is just going too far. This is the kind of charity that the Nazis practiced.


The Nazis never gave people the option of choosing whether or not they were going to be sterilized, though.

Not to mention, Hitler was also a vegetarian, an artist, and an avid Disneyphile--doesn't mean art, vegetarianism, and animation all have ties to Nazism, or that people who dabble in them are Nazis.

Quote:
Drug addicts can be cured, of course, if they want to.


Emphasis on "if they want to." Some people don't want to--hell, even some people who SAY they want to, don't REALLY want to.

Then, it depends on what you mean by "cure."

Quote:
It is for these people a life sentence. If they happen to overcome their addiction they can regret their decision.


True. But, you could say the same for if they got high and got knocked up, or got drunk, had a one night stand, and contracted HIV. Life's full of interesting choices with interesting consequences.

I figure, someone who'd permanently trade their ability to have children for a few bucks (and who wasn't already considering sterilization as an option) is either a) desperate for cash---which of course begs the question, why? or b) extremely impulsive and short-sighted. Do we want people who fail the marshmallow test to be making and taking care of babies? Survey says no.

(This excludes those who would seek sterilization for its own sake, and who would consider the money a nice bonus--in which case, you can assume that people who don't want, don't like, or don't feel equipped to deal with children are opting out of the breeding race, which also presumably constitutes a "win-win-win" situation for all involved.)

Quote:

Drug problem is too complex, birth control will not solve it.


Solve it? No. Ensure that fewer children have to be born with birth defects, brain damage, and health problems resulting from prenatal expose to drugs, or have to grow up in an environment of abuse or neglect? Absolutely, and that's what really counts.

Originally Posted By: Zaftig
And if you think that you do not judge who is and isn't worthy of your pity you are living with blinders on. Have you not decided that addicts are worthy of your pity? That is a judgement. It's just one we don't agree on, but it is a value attributed to an arbitrary situation nonetheless.


Excellent observation.

Well, and my thought is, there are already many hard-working, well-intentioned people in this world who are suffering and struggling through no fault of their own, and who would (and often do) make the most of any little gift or reprieve that might come their way. I would sooner help or applaud any of those people, than I would someone who's gotten themselves into a pickle and really doesn't care.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#435591 - 10/20/10 01:16 AM Re: Chlorinating the gene pool [Re: Riddles]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8275
If this seems to be paradoxical to the libertarian philosophies of the majority of the members of this board

How, exactly, did you arrive at the conclusion that the majority of the members of this board espouse libertarian philosophies?
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#435606 - 10/20/10 03:57 AM Re: Chlorinating the gene pool [Re: MoongleMoose]
XUL Offline


Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 238
Loc: Oslo, Norway
Originally Posted By: Maikeru

Darwin's theory of natural selection through intelligent design!


It's an interesting concept - but it doesn't go nearly as far as I would like it to do. I myself have advocated for many years that there ought to be a governmental program for voluntary sterilization; with prizes that were considerable, say for instance (the equivalent to) 10,000 dollars if you're male and 50,000 if you're female. I am quite convinced that this would weed out a considerable lot of "undesireables" from the gene pool within two generations. Not only drug addicts but also all (or most) other feebles who are borne to become losers in the game of life. I think this is a quite compassionate thing to offer, insofar that such a sum of money (with some counselling) would allow them to make certain investments in capital goods that they would otherwise stand no realistic chance of acquiring (property, etc.). Should they later come to their senses, so to speak, there's always the possibility of adopting a child.

On a side note, I am going to agree with whomever it was who said that "addiction" is not a cureable disease. It may be managed (with some training) but it remains a mental deficiency which will find a way of manifesting itself in any number of ways, not least religion. Drugs (in combination with "street life") is the perhaps most nefarious way of manifest addiction; not the only possible symptom. Alcoholism has been mentioned. We can also mention compulsive gambling, psychic vampirism, and other such types of behaviour that are designed to fill a sort of "emotional black hole" that some people carry with them.

As for Satanists, we do of course understand that indulgence and compulsion are two vastly different things. Anything which causes you to lose your grip and not be able to manage your own life is "evil" in this context. Some may argue that you may be hit by misfortune and this is true. For instance, you may lose one or more loved ones in some horrible accident and because of this have your "mojo" severely fucked up -- causing you to behave in self destructive ways for a while -- but what separates the wheat from the chaff in this issue is that the strong will eventually pick themselves up and get on with it.

Life is, after all, quite cruel and unsentimental like that. It will never be anything but what you yourself make out of it, for better or worse.
_________________________
The Maxistic Paradigm

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#435612 - 10/20/10 04:52 AM Re: Chlorinating the gene pool [Re: Phineas]
Riddles Offline


Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 82
Loc: Maryland
Originally Posted By: Phineas
If this seems to be paradoxical to the libertarian philosophies of the majority of the members of this board

How, exactly, did you arrive at the conclusion that the majority of the members of this board espouse libertarian philosophies?


I suppose it was a bit presumptuous, but there does seem to be a big emphasis on individualism among Satanists, although individual liberty is certainly another matter. I guess much of it just what I read into it, and maybe I unfairly extrapolated. Also, I have come across this kind of quote at times which gave me this impression.

"Most of us are fairly libertarian people."
--High Priest Peter H. Gilmore

Also, although I don't believe you made this mistake, I want to make it clear to all that I was using "libertarian" with a little "l", not a capital "L".

With all due respect,
Riddles
_________________________
"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first."
--Mark Twain

"Egoism is the very essence of a noble soul."
--Friedrich Nietzsche

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#435619 - 10/20/10 05:54 AM Re: Chlorinating the gene pool [Re: MoongleMoose]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 996
Loc: My suburban lair
Something else that I donít think has been addressed here yet, is that there are many people who not only choose to have these types of surgeries, but have, and will, actually pay to have them done (after a brief search, Iím getting numbers somewhere in the neighborhood of $500 to $1,000 for a male and up to five times as expensive for the equivalent female operation).

Itís important to remember that sterilization is not, by any means, considered a universally negative thing and there are plenty of completely responsible people who choose this for very practical and selfish reasons.

If you look at it this way, it doesnít necessarily seem like such a bad deal to get paid for doing it. You could argue that these drug addicts are being handed money for agreeing to undergo something that more responsible citizens would have to pay for the privilege of doing (either directly or indirectly; through their insurance).

Itís really not a bad deal at all, if you think about it. If anything, itís too accommodating.

Some people donít see the idea of never having to worry about having kids as some horrible life sentence that theyíre condemned to, but as a privileged option that medical science has given us.


Edited by John Prophet (10/20/10 08:01 AM)
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#435629 - 10/20/10 07:37 AM Re: Chlorinating the gene pool [Re: Riddles]
Machismo Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Riddles
Might is right.


I've never interpreted that statement as meaning, might conveys rights, but rather, might conveys moral authority. The first interpretation would be an accurate description of reality, of course, since rights can only be granted and defended by force. The second interpretation, which is the one I always applied to Redbeard's use of the phrase, seems to me misleading, because it merges in our imaginations two domains, force and information, which in reality are separate, intrinsically and fundamentally distinct. Better to say, might trumps right, which would mean, might renders moral authority moot, an accurate description of reality, since might trumps everything, and renders moot all that opposes it.

As for the question of moral authority, I've wrestled with that on various threads, many of them on forums you don't currently have access to. None of my thought experiments satisfied me for long. Redbeard, of course, would say that moral authority is a chimera, that amorality is the only non-delusional perspective for man. I had sympathy for that position and espoused it for a while, but finally couldn't maintain it, as there is something in me that wants to be moral. So then I tried to categorize morality as a kind of indulgence, for example as principled malice, or alternatively as principled pride, but in the end this didn't work for me, because morality as it functions in my head is usually a No rather than a Yes, a denial, thus an abstinence. Equating abstinence with indulgence would be oxymoronic.

Lately I'm falling back on my formulation, Satan represents the Satanist, and thus am concluding, not only morally but also politically, that whatever serves the Satanist is right, whatever sabotages the Satanist is wrong, and whatever has no impact on the Satanist is moot. Thus moral and political authority derive from Satanic nature. This begs the question of what Satanic nature is, which can be answered by saying that Satanic nature in man is whatever understands, agrees with, and sees itself mirrored in The Satanic Bible - a good answer, and useful in many contexts, but I want something more specific for my purposes here delineated, so I say, for now, in this context, that Satanic nature is whatever in man rejects herd conformity, rejects faith, and rejects self-destructiveness subconscious or conscious, thus opening all doors and clearing all pathways for the forward march of personal sovereignty, scientific reasoning, and maximum well-being.
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#435640 - 10/20/10 10:12 AM Re: Chlorinating the gene pool [Re: Riddles]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8275
One thing to keep in mind, not everyone who posts in this section is a Satanist, even if they claim to be one. wink
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#435705 - 10/20/10 07:16 PM Re: Chlorinating the gene pool [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Adveser Offline


Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 429
Loc: California
I'm not ignorant. I have different opinion.

You are simply putting me in a very difficult position because I would essentially have to admit that I've used every drug known to man to make my point, which is ban-able and somehow incompatible with Satanism despite never once doing anything without joyfully indulging in it or causing any harm to my body doing so.

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#435723 - 10/20/10 10:23 PM Re: Chlorinating the gene pool [Re: MoongleMoose]
Liberterius Offline


Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 241
The program seems like an excellent idea in my opinion.

As I've said before, I do believe that people should have a right to use whatever drugs they want so far as they don't harm anyone else (drunk driving, fights, vandalism, lots of stupid shit people do when they're high) so I do disagree with many members of this board in that respect.

However, yeah I think it's safe to say most drug addicts (not people who just drink once in a while, especially socially but would be considered addicts by AA and other prohibitionists) are irresponsible assholes who don't deserve to have kids until they've had very very confirmed and successful treatment, and even then they shouldn't have kids for some time after they're sure (by doctor approval) of being as "cured" as possible.
Why anyone would marry these idiots is beyond me.

And all these people complaining about the sterilizations; they're not forced. "Big Brother" isn't rounding up people from the streets into unmarked vans and cutting their balls off. It's voluntary, you come to them, and they PAY you for it, so you can go buy more drugs and die in the gutter. Not that I care about that so long as a new child doesn't have to inevitably suffer for their bad choices.
It's not manipulation, there's no dishonesty here, if you don't wanna be a drug addict, don't start on stupid shit like that in first place, and if you wanna have kids and some sort of normal career GET HELP.

By the way I'd just like to take this opportunity to clear up some stuff about me...

I apologize for my bigoted and rude behavior regarding politics of drug legalization on this board. I had read High Priest Gilmore's "Church of Satan Policy on Politics Before," and read the rules about no politics on the upstairs boards, but I was just being an idiot. After lurking around on here a while longer, I realize now, political opinion of COS members really does span the political spectrum, and it was foolish (to say the least) of me to project MY personal views onto Satanism.

To make it clear, I myself am not a druggie; my only experience with marijuana was in a legal bar in Amsterdam (I didn't care for it...) and I'm not at all even a heavy drinker. I believe hard drug use to be stupid, even when and where it is legal, but I am not morally opposed to other using drugs as they see fit, so long as they bear the responsibility of any consequences themselves; I don't like the societal pity for druggies as if it isn't their fault.

I hope this has cleared things up as to where I stand, again I apologize to all clergy, moderators, and members in general that I have been rude to and no doubt highly annoyed with my political bigotry. We all have our opinions and can vote and think how/as much as we want; I feel like an idiot for not fully realizing that in the context of the COS earlier.

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#435740 - 10/21/10 04:15 AM Re: Chlorinating the gene pool [Re: Liberterius]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 996
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: Liberterius
I hope this has cleared things up as to where I stand, again I apologize to all clergy, moderators, and members in general that I have been rude to and no doubt highly annoyed with my political bigotry. We all have our opinions and can vote and think how/as much as we want; I feel like an idiot for not fully realizing that in the context of the COS earlier.

Actually, that does clear up a few things; thank you. Although I donít believe that Iíve ever responded to you about that particular topic, I must admit that some of your posts about it did leave a little bit of a bad taste in my mouth and seemed to contradict some of your other, more intelligent sounding posts about other topics.

I applaud you for your thoughtfulness and willingness to engage in that type of self examination.
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#435748 - 10/21/10 05:38 AM Re: Chlorinating the gene pool [Re: John Prophet]
Machismo Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: John Prophet
Some people donít see the idea of never having to worry about having kids as some horrible life sentence that theyíre condemned to, but as a privileged option that medical science has given us.


Took the words right out of my mouth. For a responsible person, having a kid means raising a kid, and raising a kid means Brobdingnagian* allocations of time, energy, and money over a span of more than two decades. It is a burden of Cyclopean* proportions. I paid money to make sure that my two daughters would be the last children I would ever have. Here we have an opportunity for people to get paid, instead of paying, for the privilege I had to pay for. What a great idea! Especially since the world already has more humans than it needs. I applaud this sensible and benevolent manifestation of antinatalism.

* Indulging my fondness for these words that Swift and Lovecraft made cool. cool
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#435750 - 10/21/10 06:13 AM Re: Chlorinating the gene pool [Re: MoongleMoose]
Spelled Moon
Unregistered


Wonderful.

I see something very positive in this. This smells sweetly, because if it meets with very wide acceptance, by time, I can see how other human "problems" could be solved in similar way, peacefully and with acceptance again.

The investments would return in many ways.

If the medicine wasn't so evolved and functioning, like it is now, many weakest people would be soon dead and wouldn't reproduce, or the offspring wouldn't survive... As it works similarly with animals in nature. So certainly, those people who behave irresponsibly to their lives get something, what they wouldn't get in previous conditions - a medical care for their lives that they even don't value themselves.

If certain people's reasoning leads to a voluntary decision for adopting the weakness, like is a drug addiction, and such act is 'alright, allowed and their right' - lets allow them and offer them possibility for making decision to sell their prolificacy, too.

Oh my, I can see where the principle would be usable in my country. Some of you know who I mean. Showing them few Euros could be a key to everything -literally, seriously- and everyone 'would live happily ever after'.

Or something like that. smile wink

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#435757 - 10/21/10 07:43 AM Re: Chlorinating the gene pool [Re: Liberterius]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
Originally Posted By: Liberterius
To make it clear, I myself am not a druggie; my only experience with marijuana was in a legal bar in Amsterdam (I didn't care for it...) and I'm not at all even a heavy drinker. I believe hard drug use to be stupid, even when and where it is legal, but I am not morally opposed to other using drugs as they see fit, so long as they bear the responsibility of any consequences themselves; I don't like the societal pity for druggies as if it isn't their fault.


"Cannabis remains a controlled substance in the Netherlands and both possession and production for personal use are still misdemeanors, punishable by fine. Coffeeshops are also illegal according to the statutes.

However, a policy of non-enforcement has led to a situation where reliance upon non-enforcement has become common, and because of this the courts have ruled against the government when individual cases were prosecuted."

Source

I hear this all the time. "Pot is legal in Amsterdam" To my knowledge marijuana is illegal everywhere.
_________________________
ÔŅĹLove is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.ÔŅĹ
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

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#435759 - 10/21/10 08:03 AM Re: Chlorinating the gene pool [Re: Lust]
Zsche Offline



Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 158
Loc: Where the 5.56 casings fall...
Originally Posted By: Tier Instinct
I hear this all the time. "Pot is legal in Amsterdam" To my knowledge marijuana is illegal everywhere.


Apparently - not everywhere:

Source
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Phineas
My suggestion to you, besides obtaining a copy of The Satanic Bible and reading it, is to immerse yourself in the information contained at the Church of Satan website.

Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
You can't guzzle whiskey and pinch pretty ladies' asses when you're dead.

Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster
Love life. Live life. Don't fuck with people unnecessarily. Don"t let other people fuck with you. Simple guidelines that that will help you to make informed, intelligent and Satanic decisions.

Originally Posted By: Callier
Constructive criticism is one thing but people that just point blank tell others what they should be doing with their lives without any kind of permission can eat a bag of hairy balls.

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