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#436747 - 10/31/10 05:37 PM Re: End of Earth Postponed [Re: anna]
Delta Offline
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Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 6751
Loc: Nar
Originally Posted By: anna
The Nazis murdered millions of people just for pure sadistic pleasure. I'm not very good at biology, I can hardly find an animal which slaughters a big number of other animals just for fun.


The Nazis killed for self preservation, for territory and for ethnic purposes. Animals do all of these. People do kill for pleasure, and perhaps in quantity this is one of those times the two legged animals are "lesser" than the four legged variety, but watch a cat play with a mouse. Sexual connotations of the word and the scope of their destruction aside, this is as true a kind of sadism as I can imagine.

PS I'm still interested in your response concerning anything Hitler did to make him unchristian...
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#436753 - 10/31/10 06:18 PM Re: End of Earth Postponed [Re: anna]
Zaftig Offline
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Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
Quote:
Looking after one's children is generally thought to be a good behaviour, and although there are various ways in which parents bring up their children (better or worse), slaughtering babies is unacceptable even in the most primitive cultures.


There were and are cultures that leave deformed or ill babies to exposure, allowing them to die from starvation. This was and is done because they do not have access to modern medicines, and keeping such a child alive would sometimes endanger the larger group. Imagine small agricultural villages that are directly dependent on everyone contributing with their physical labour. Even if they could keep alive a deformed child, that child's caretaker is no longer contributing, so there are now 2 people that drain resources, instead of aiding in production of some sort.

We in the modern age find this cruel, but it was and is simply a matter of survival when it's necessary.

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#436754 - 10/31/10 06:19 PM Re: End of Earth Postponed [Re: Delta]
TheDegenerate Offline
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Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
Originally Posted By: Delta
Originally Posted By: anna
The Nazis murdered millions of people just for pure sadistic pleasure. I'm not very good at biology, I can hardly find an animal which slaughters a big number of other animals just for fun.


The Nazis killed for self preservation, for territory and for ethnic purposes. Animals do all of these. People do kill for pleasure, and perhaps in quantity this is one of those times the two legged animals are "lesser" than the four legged variety, but watch a cat play with a mouse. Sexual connotations of the word and the scope of their destruction aside, this is as true a kind of sadism as I can imagine.

PS I'm still interested in your response concerning anything Hitler did to make him unchristian...


Exactly. It wasn't "Jew slaughter fun time" in Nazi Germany, there was a specific political agenda that lead up to that point, just as in many other genocides which you failed to point out in lieu of your "Raiders of the Lost Ark" stereotyping of Nazi Germany.

Also, I don't have a problem assuming 90 percent of the world is insane. I already believe that 90 percent of the world is made up of a bunch of morons, and since faith and belief is such a prevelant idea among them, it is not a stretch of the imagination to think they might be lunatics as well. In fact, I'd make a bet on it. It may be a bit unfair to call anyone with spiritual belief crazy; but hey, speaking of judgement, I'll agree with you there. We are being judged by everyone around us, but I hoped it was clear in the context I was using it, that I was referring to invisible spiritual deities (in which case, there is definitely no judgement going on.)

Also there have been cases of culturual euthenasia going far back in human history, so even your theory of "baby killing" always being morally wrong is also incorrect. We have also been sacrificing humans just as long as we have been sacrificing goats in the name of appeasing invisible giant heads, and you can't honestly tell me there weren't a few young virgins thrown in that mix. Our moral violence only seems to be restricted by what insane bullshit we believe in, and it is truly impressive to see the horrors human beings are capable of, ESPECIALLY in the face of the overwhelming disease known as "belief."

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#436765 - 10/31/10 07:30 PM Re: End of Earth Postponed [Re: Delta]
anna Offline


Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 219
Loc: Poland
Quote:
The Nazis killed for self preservation, for territory and for ethnic purposes


This is what they were saying to justify their actions. We tend to rationalize human violence, but sometimes it is inexplicable. I'm sure that people often murder and torture because they simply like it.

Quote:
PS I'm still interested in your response concerning anything Hitler did to make him unchristian...


If you want to know my opinion...Everything except his fancy for the opera.
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#436768 - 10/31/10 08:19 PM Re: End of Earth Postponed [Re: anna]
Original Sly Offline


Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 205
Loc: New Zealand
Quote:
We tend to rationalize human violence, but sometimes it is inexplicable.


I'll agree with this statement, but not with the context in which you've used it. Nazi Germany's programme of extermination was not an inexplicable act of violence. It had many causes which we can identify.

At the very least, the Jews had been scapegoated in Europe for centuries before lil' ol' Hitler came along. Blood libel, Host desecration, well-poisoning, refusal to accept the "truth" of Christianity and the divinity of Jesus Christ, bringers of pestilence and plague, there were many accusations levelled at Jews, and truth or fantasy they all led to pogroms and explusion/execution at one time or another.

So the scapegoating of Jews that manifested in Nazi Germany was not an inexplicable act of human violence. It had precedents throughout the centuries in Europe. Calling something "inexplicable" is sometimes just an indicator of laziness and unwillingness to find an answer... which is generally quite a common thread for Christians who refuse to seek answers and use the "God of the Gaps" to explain things.
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#436811 - 11/01/10 08:14 AM Re: End of Earth Postponed [Re: anna]
TheDegenerate Offline
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Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
Originally Posted By: anna
Quote:
The Nazis killed for self preservation, for territory and for ethnic purposes


This is what they were saying to justify their actions. We tend to rationalize human violence, but sometimes it is inexplicable. I'm sure that people often murder and torture because they simply like it.

Quote:
PS I'm still interested in your response concerning anything Hitler did to make him unchristian...


If you want to know my opinion...Everything except his fancy for the opera.


Do you honestly believe that the entire Nazi party was simply a faceless evil empire hell bent to do nothing more than kill and torture people simply for "the fun" of it, and that every other reason for committing genocide was simply a front for their collective blood lust? It doesn't surprise me to hear yet another person prattle on about this tripe while simultaneously ignoring many of the greater atrocities that have been committed throughout history, especially those done in the name of the god they so readily believe in.

Hitler and the Nazi's were saints in comparison to the violent, twisted history of Christians and Catholics who essentially ruled the world with an iron fist, systematically destroying everything in their path to make way for their brand of psychotic fanatacism, so I find it very ironic that a Christian can sit there and make generalizations about who is "evil", when ideas like god, faith and belief are responsible for the continued death, molestation, and torture of millions of innocent people. Genocide seems like peanuts in comparison really, and I can think of at least one genocide which was about on the level of the holocaust which nobody mentions because it's much harder to equate it to a super villain-like force which can be blamed and pidgeonholed as "evil" without really understanding what it was all about.

But hey, that's just me. I am no apologist, and I tend to read a lot of history books. The Nazi's had a fucking tea party compared to the collective insanity of the rest of the human race, so it seems a bit unfair to single them out. And sadly, most of this insanity stems from some kind of idealism, usually one of religious proportions.

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#436812 - 11/01/10 09:19 AM Re: End of Earth Postponed [Re: anna]
Bill_M Offline
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Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
Quote:
PS I'm still interested in your response concerning anything Hitler did to make him unchristian...

Originally Posted By: anna
If you want to know my opinion...Everything except his fancy for the opera.

I take it you've never read Mein Kampf?
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#436813 - 11/01/10 09:20 AM Re: End of Earth Postponed [Re: anna]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1813
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: anna

If you want to know my opinion...Everything except his fancy for the opera.


Interesting distinction, especially since the operas he is often associated with are based on norse pre-christian mythology. I am of course refering to "Der Ring des Nibelungen" by Richard Wagner. It is almost impossible to watch a WWII documentary without hearing at least the ride of the valkyries and the funeral march of Siegfried.

If you read the Wikipedia entry on Winifred Wagner, responsible for the Festspiele at the time ( at this link ) you will see that her beliefs are given as: "Like Hitler, Winifred Wagner believed profoundly in the rite of a secular cult of German nationalism, of Nordic self-realization, and völkisch aspiration"

Hardly christian values, so the one thing about Hitler you claim to be based on christianity is not, as opposed to the anti-semitism, which was well established years prior to Hitlers birth by .. tadaaaa! The Catholic church smile
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#436815 - 11/01/10 09:37 AM Re: End of Earth Postponed [Re: TheDegenerate]
Bill_M Offline
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Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: TheDegenerate
It doesn't surprise me to hear yet another person prattle on about this tripe while simultaneously ignoring many of the greater atrocities that have been committed throughout history, especially those done in the name of the god they so readily believe in.

I've seen it countless times myself. Long before Godwin's Law ("As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."), there was an old saying: the first person to bring up the Nazis in a debate, loses. I think there's certainly some truth to that, because the person first bringing up the Nazis is typically doing some cartoonish over-simplification of the Third Reich that leads to a non-sequitur. And of course, if you try pointing out this fallacy, you're a accused of being a Hitler sympathizer. Go figure.


Originally Posted By: TheDegenerate
Hitler and the Nazi's were saints in comparison to the violent, twisted history of Christians and Catholics who essentially ruled the world with an iron fist,


Reminds me of this bit from Doug Stanhope:



This is usually the point where the Jesus freaks try arguing by comparing numbers. "Oh [Hitler / Pol Pot / insert-20th-century dictator here] killed more people, therefore" blah blah blah. Of course, they conveniently overlook the changes in global population and technology. If medieval-period theocracies had 20th century transportation and weaponry, they obviously would have used it.
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#436819 - 11/01/10 10:06 AM Re: End of Earth Postponed [Re: anna]
Shade Offline
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Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 6135
Loc: A Trailer Park
Originally Posted By: anna
The Nazis murdered millions of people just for pure sadistic pleasure.


Even if that were the case (I'm not sure I'd describe what they did in that way), it’s not really unique to Nazis. A lot of different examples of this throughout history and today: rape campaigns, systematic disfigurement, sanctioned torture. Most of which is not recorded in official statistics.

Deliberate cruelty is part of the process of impersonalization, a process that’s very necessary component of war. How else are you going to convince normal everyday run-of-the-mill citizens to go out and kill total strangers? Soldiers don’t see other people on the battlefield, they see the nameless, the faceless (“they all look alike”). They see The Enemy. I don’t think that’s called sadism though. Usually it’s referred to as patriotism.

Cry 'Havoc!'...

(Aside: For some reason, I seem to remember Nazis not being the only ones who didn't like Jews.) Whoops, verszou already mentions this! blush


Edited by Shade (11/01/10 10:19 AM)
Edit Reason: hell is repetition...
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#436824 - 11/01/10 11:28 AM Re: End of Earth Postponed [Re: Original Sly]
TrojZyr Offline
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Registered: 07/25/01
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Originally Posted By: Original Sly

I'll agree with this statement, but not with the context in which you've used it. Nazi Germany's programme of extermination was not an inexplicable act of violence. It had many causes which we can identify.


It becomes even less inexplicable when you consider the Milgram Obedience Study and the Zimbardo Stanford Prison Study, and realize that perfectly normal, well-adjusted human beings will brutalize and torture other normal, well-adjusted human beings, simply because the authorities commanded it, or everyone else is doing it.

Factor in the long-standing prejudice against Jews, and it would've been more incredible and unbelievable if the Holocaust hadn't happened, at least somewhere, in some time.

Mob violence rarely manages to surprise or bemuse me. Forms of child and animal abuse, on the other hand, really do strike me as senseless and tragically inexplicable.
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#436830 - 11/01/10 12:09 PM Re: End of Earth Postponed [Re: TrojZyr]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1813
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: TrojZyr

Factor in the long-standing prejudice against Jews, and it would've been more incredible and unbelievable if the Holocaust hadn't happened, at least somewhere, in some time.




Looking at the history of Spinoza, one of the very prominent thinkers who helped bring us the age of enlightenment, there are a few good examples of this

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Spinoza

At the time the catholic church forced jews to convert to their faith (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Conversos). Note:

"The conversos did not enjoy legal equality. Alfonso VII prohibited the "recently converted" from holding office in Toledo."

Wonder where they got the idea for the Nuremberg laws.

"they became targets of occasional pogroms during times of extreme social tension (as during an epidemic and after an earthquake.) They were subject to the Spanish and Portuguese inquisitions."

Which is of course very different from the third reich, and could in n way have inspired anything wink

Of course the position of the chief exorcist of the catholic church, a man who claims to have performed so many exorcisms that normal logical reasoning would deem it physically impossible for him to do, claims that the entire German people were possessed by the devil. Which comes in quite handy if one wants to tone down what happened when it turns out that the guy that the Vatican backed ended up loosing the war (guess who gave the Vatican their special status ... Hitlers old pal Mussolini - the reason why their ex-Hitlerjugend-member leader today travels around like a head of state is that Mussolini gave them special recognition that was never revoked :)).
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#436855 - 11/01/10 08:00 PM Re: End of Earth Postponed [Re: TheDegenerate]
anna Offline


Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 219
Loc: Poland
Quote:
Hitler and the Nazi's were saints in comparison to the violent, twisted history of Christians and Catholics who essentially ruled the world with an iron fist, systematically destroying everything in their path to make way for their brand of psychotic fanatacism, so I find it very ironic that a Christian can sit there and make generalizations about who is "evil", when ideas like god, faith and belief are responsible for the continued death, molestation, and torture of millions of innocent people.


An interesting point of view, especially if you take into consideration the number of killed people, ruthless medical experiments, boiling people and making a soap from their fat, using their skin as a material for clothes and so on. Here, in Poland, there live some survivors of the concentration camps and I can assure you that they would be offended if somebody compared their horrifying experience to, for example, suffering of Indians at the hand of western missionaries.

I don't justify the bloody holy inquisition, as some people are trying to do, but putting it in one line with the Nazi holocaust is simply laughable. The fact that the Medieval Church didn't have the modern means to murder more people is insignificant. Hitler could kill more people if he had some nuclear weapons but it's just an alternative history.

Quote:
I am no apologist, and I tend to read a lot of history books.


I like reading history books too, but unfortunately, many historians are unable to leave their political and religious prejudices behind while writing a book. Therefore, instead of presenting bare facts, they write long personal essays, where they twist the truth in favour of their subjective opinions.

For you every violence boils down to religion, but people are not that simple. You forget about Atheist crimes during French and Russian Revolution. In fact, you could compare the Nazis to French revolutionists. They literally tore up innocent people to pieces and used to skin them to make clothes.

In my opinion, it is naive to think that people would be better if they didn't believe in anything. They would be as aggressive and cruel as they have always been. Many twist religion so that it suits their interests and others worship money, power, their ambitions which are also gods.

P.S. I know who Richard Wagner was. I have a big respect for artists, no matter what their religious views are and I value art, christian or not, as something that enriches our lives. However, it is only my personal opinion.
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#436858 - 11/01/10 08:44 PM Re: End of Earth Postponed [Re: anna]
Original Sly Offline


Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 205
Loc: New Zealand
Quote:
You forget about Atheist crimes during French and Russian Revolution.


There are no such things as atheist crimes. Atheism denotes a lack of theistic belief, it's not a belief system itself. I repeat: Atheism denotes a lack of belief. A lack of .

There may have been anti-theist crimes. But anti-theism is not atheism. They're not the same thing at all.

It's so typical of theists to try to blame things on atheism. Your minds are so stunted and dependant upon your delusions that you can't comprehend a lack of those delusions.
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#436861 - 11/01/10 09:54 PM Re: End of Earth Postponed [Re: anna]
Lamar Drummer Offline


Registered: 09/16/10
Posts: 133
Loc: Alabama
Originally Posted By: anna

For you every violence boils down to religion, but people are not that simple. You forget about Atheist crimes during French and Russian Revolution. In fact, you could compare the Nazis to French revolutionists. They literally tore up innocent people to pieces and used to skin them to make clothes.

In my opinion, it is naive to think that people would be better if they didn't believe in anything. They would be as aggressive and cruel as they have always been. Many twist religion so that it suits their interests and others worship money, power, their ambitions which are also gods.


The way I see it, the way that religionists and theists in general have acted I would advocate the skinning of them to make clothes.

And indeed that if people didn't believe in a deity or faith there would still be aggression and chaos, but perhaps people would be a little bit closer to honesty with themselves. But that said, I do not advocate by any means that no one should not believe in theism. Stratification will always play out, even by people deluding themselves.
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