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#436862 - 11/01/10 10:03 PM Anecdote and Question [Re: LordofDarkness]
Schadenfreude-6 Offline


Registered: 12/10/08
Posts: 120
Loc: MB, Canada.
The other day I got into a debate with someone about Capital Punishment. I believe that anyone found guilty beyond a reasonable double (DNA evidence, video proof etc) of murder that isn't committed in self defense, along with ANY rape or conviction of pedophilia or distribution of child pornography - should be snuffed out by the state, shot in the head with their family being sent a bill of the cost of the bullet - this is just how I feel.

This person was spouting the regular stuff, egalitarian "everyone is equal" and "all life has the same value" BS - they reasoned (if you want to call it that), that regardless of someones crime and no matter who they killed, how many they killed, or how they killed them, should just spend their life in prison (with us law abiding tax payers footing the bill for the remainder of that existance). That "under no circumstance should ANY government, state, or ruling body be able to take the life of another person regardless of any crime they have committed." I let them spout all this stuff, giving them more and more rope for what I knew would be an inevitable response...

I then asked them how they felt about Wolfram Sievers, they did not know who this person was, so I told them who he was along with sharing a Wikipedia article on him with why and how he died and after that, they back tracked, and changed their story, going against their original argument trying to explain why... I did not listen.


This person lives in Israel and is a practicing Jew - funny stuff, no?

So Anna, I am curious as you live in Poland - are you Jewish through blood or do you have family who died in the holocaust? Maybe this has something to do with your bias and popular opinion in the Nazis being nothing more than mindless blood hungry murderers because I know first hand that people usually feel differently about situations that have some kind of tie to them, be it personally or through family or ethnicity, race etc etc not that I really care, just curious... because that's the type of person I am.

Anyhow, continue the discussion folks, very interesting read.
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"Inferior organisms succumb and perish or are enslaved. Superior organisms survive, propagate, and possess." - Charles Darwin

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#436865 - 11/01/10 11:30 PM Re: Anecdote and Question [Re: Schadenfreude-6]
anna Offline


Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 219
Loc: Poland
No, I'm not Jewish and nobody from my family was put in a concentration camp. However, Poland and also other middle eastern countries, were an area of special Nazi activities. It was later that the western countries learned what was happening here.

So just to answer your questions, if you are a writer here, in Poland, and you write that the Nazis did no more than others did before, you will have to find a radical nationalist Christian publisher to publish your books, because nobody else will agree to do that. And you won't find your books in any major bookstores. If you are a journalist no newspaper will work with you, and if you are a professor, there is only one small university here, where you could present your original views about holocaust. Unfortunately, it is a Catholic one.

So to sum up, you would be ostracised here, as are some radical, nationalist, antisemitic Christians. And really they are such a shame that even the most conservative bishops blush and stammer, when called upon to explain their behaviour.
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Just gonna stand there and watch me burn. Well that's alright because I like the way it hurts.

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#436867 - 11/02/10 01:14 AM Re: End of Earth Postponed [Re: anna]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1812
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: anna

For you every violence boils down to religion, but people are not that simple. You forget about Atheist crimes during French and Russian Revolution. In fact, you could compare the Nazis to French revolutionists. They literally tore up innocent people to pieces and used to skin them to make clothes.

In my opinion, it is naive to think that people would be better if they didn't believe in anything. They would be as aggressive and cruel as they have always been. Many twist religion so that it suits their interests and others worship money, power, their ambitions which are also gods.


This is actually a variation on a strawman argument, mixed up with a false dichotomy.

Since you cannot evade the factual ties between Nazi Germany and christianity you instead find examples where the leaders were atheist and use their crimes as an argument.

But if religious people kill their enemies in horrible ways and people without religion do the same thing, the only thing that proves is that religion does not add or subtract anything to the human nature.

On your list of crimes in the concentration camps I think you are mistaken about the use of human skin. As far as I know that one is a myth that has since been debunked. The Nazis weren't the only ones doing propaganda during the war.

I'm not bringing doubt to any of the others, but you seem very fixated on the flaying thing, so I'd like to point out that as can be seen from the list at this link ) that form of punishment is very ecumenical and cross-culture. The French revolution is not mentioned in there, so I wonder if you have a credible source for the claim that the revolutionaries "literally tore up innocent people to pieces and used to skin them to make clothes." I've not done any extensive reading on the French revolution, and what I've read focused more on the political parts. Of course indiscriminate use of the guillotine and the imprisoning in the Bastille are well known and not disputed, but skinning people is not normally listed as a practice in widespread use.
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While having never invented a sin, I'm trying to perfect several.

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#436909 - 11/02/10 03:57 PM Re: End of Earth Postponed [Re: verszou]
anna Offline


Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 219
Loc: Poland
Ok. You are right about this skin use being no more than a widespread myth. I've just rushed in and made a fool of myself without checking this thing.

Still, it can't be denied that the Nazis used to play with human bodies in the form of ruthless medical experiments and anatomic examinations. I'm really at a loss what made holocaust a Christian thing. That Hitler, in his madness, believed he was a pious Christian, doesn't mean he was one in reality.

Quote:
But if religious people kill their enemies in horrible ways and people without religion do the same thing, the only thing that proves is that religion does not add or subtract anything to the human nature.


And this is just what I'm trying to say. Everything boils down to human nature, a belief can make a person better but it doesn't have to. Every man has a free will and takes responsibility for his life. Religion can help you to be a good person but, in the end, it is what you do in your daily life that really matters.
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Just gonna stand there and watch me burn. Well that's alright because I like the way it hurts.

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#436911 - 11/02/10 04:13 PM Re: End of Earth Postponed [Re: anna]
Delta Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 6750
Loc: Nar
Originally Posted By: anna
the Nazis used to play with human bodies in the form of ruthless medical experiments and anatomic examinations


Play? You continue to display a total ignorance of motive. Games might have been played but medical experiments are hardly games. I know people from Poland who understand this so don't try to blame the media climate there as you did in post 436865. You're buying into cinematic delusions that even Holocaust Survivors don't buy into.

Originally Posted By: anna
I'm really at a loss what made holocaust a Christian thing.


Again you fail to understand the allegations. Regardless of Hitler's beliefs and the motives for the holocaust (And I haven't seen any claims here that the holocaust itself was motivated by Christianity, though Martin Luther might have thought otherwise I won't hold you to protestant ambitions, being Catholic and all) my allegation is that the holocaust was nothing new compared to Christian, specifically Catholic atrocities condoned and ordered by your infallible Popery.

Originally Posted By: anna
That Hitler, in his madness, believed he was a pious Christian, doesn't mean he was one in reality.


You laughed off my question yet again, but continue to maintain Hitler couldn't have been Christian, despite any assertions he might have made and the belief that he was (Which I do not claim he made or did, all theory). I say again, who are you to JUDGE? I won't hold you to the protestant belief that anyone accepting Christ is saved, I'll hold you to Catholic standards, to your own moral code: What did Hitler do that Popes through the ages didn't? What did he believe that went against doctrine? And how dare you claim to speak for the Lord your God in matters of HIS forgiveness? I find that most unchristian of you.
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#436913 - 11/02/10 04:24 PM Re: End of Earth Postponed [Re: anna]
Colonel Kurtz Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 192
Originally Posted By: anna
Every man has a free will and takes responsibility for his life. Religion can help you to be a good person but, in the end, it is what you do in your daily life that really matters.


Responsibility is Bread and Butter to the Satanist! I wouldn't give it up to faith and/or belief. I am the one who is responsible for my short comings. I will never freely give up my successes, victories, or that which I am responsible for.

"But if religious people kill their enemies in horrible ways and people without religion do the same thing, the only thing that proves is that religion does not add or subtract anything to the human nature."

The Religious do this in the name of god. Responsiblity is abdicated. It becomes gods will and not human nature.

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#436924 - 11/02/10 05:33 PM Re: End of Earth Postponed [Re: Delta]
anna Offline


Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 219
Loc: Poland
Quote:
And how dare you claim to speak for the Lord your God in matters of HIS forgiveness? I find that most unchristian of you.


Just what the hell can you know about that...
_________________________
Just gonna stand there and watch me burn. Well that's alright because I like the way it hurts.

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#436926 - 11/02/10 05:39 PM Re: End of Earth Postponed [Re: anna]
Delta Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 6750
Loc: Nar
Originally Posted By: anna
Just what the hell can you know about that...


About what? You're claiming a man is unchristian. Isn't that Jesus's call instead of yours? Judge not for ye be judged. I don't subscribe to that but if you're a Christian perhaps you should.

Others here have judged and debated you by Satanic standards, standards a Christian cannot possibly meet. I'm giving you a sporting chance and putting you to the test of your own standards. So c'mon, tell us. What gives you the right to judge ol Adolf? And again and again, what did he ever do that your infallible papal fuhrers haven't done worse?
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#436937 - 11/02/10 07:56 PM Re: End of Earth Postponed [Re: Delta]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
Originally Posted By: Delta
Originally Posted By: anna
Just what the hell can you know about that...


About what? You're claiming a man is unchristian. Isn't that Jesus's call instead of yours? Judge not for ye be judged. I don't subscribe to that but if you're a Christian perhaps you should.

Others here have judged and debated you by Satanic standards, standards a Christian cannot possibly meet. I'm giving you a sporting chance and putting you to the test of your own standards. So c'mon, tell us. What gives you the right to judge ol Adolf? And again and again, what did he ever do that your infallible papal fuhrers haven't done worse?


Not to mention just how SELECTIVE these people are when it comes to selecting for themselves who is "worthy" and "unworthy." The people in charge of Catholic torture chambers, crusades, and all of that? No no, that was TOTALLY, like, UN-Christian. Rapist priests? TOTALLY UN-Christian. Those who believe in the same God but with a few minor variations in rules? Nope, going to hell, into the pit with them.

Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

It's the same merry go round bullshit that has kept me rolling my eyes since I was young enough to understand that people actually believed in a bunch of shit promoted by a fictional 2000 page sleeping pill. The same kind of holier-than-thou hypocritical psychobabble, and the same kind of self-destructive "open mindedness" that, every once in awhile, seems to have someone convinced that their "love all" policy will allow them intellectual asylum within the walls of the oh-so unforgiving.

There is a really good reason that Satanists are always promoting "the third side", that little grey area that lies between EVERYTHING. Anything "fact" that falls under an extreme of one kind or another is usually sketchy, at very very best, and seldom backed up with evidence, or fact. In Satanism, the greatest enemy of all is not the Christian, or the Buddhist, or tree hugging dirt licker, but instead the ignorance and lack of reason that most faiths and religions, and unfortunately, media and political agendas rely on in order to stay in the limelight. So if you are going to start an argument, especially one relying on outdated, overused stereotypes and generalizations such as "Hitler being an evil man who tortured and killing thousands just for da heck of it", it would be wise to have your shit together before you do so. If some of the people I have met here have a "flaw", it's that they are obsessive; and historical fact and the dismantling of false suppositions is definitely one of the things I am sure more than a few people here are guilty of.

I find whenever I ask a Satanist "what the hell" he knows about something, especially something such as the religion which his OWN openly mocks, ridicules, and satirizes, and which has been for over fourty years, the answer is probably going to be, "quite a fucking lot, actually." And yet the people who believe in the very same concepts seem to have barely a clue, or at worst, know a lot that they simply learned from other folks who are even more ignorant than them.

I am not trying to degenrate this into a "me too!" session of finger pointing and ridicule, but I have been watching the thread go this way for a week now, and was almost certain where it would go as soon as the word Nazi was mentioned.

Yikes.

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#436945 - 11/02/10 11:56 PM Re: End of Earth Postponed [Re: Delta]
anna Offline


Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 219
Loc: Poland
Quote:
About what? You're claiming a man is unchristian. Isn't that Jesus's call instead of yours? Judge not for ye be judged. I don't subscribe to that but if you're a Christian perhaps you should.

Others here have judged and debated you by Satanic standards, standards a Christian cannot possibly meet. I'm giving you a sporting chance and putting you to the test of your own standards. So c'mon, tell us. What gives you the right to judge ol Adolf? And again and again, what did he ever do that your infallible papal fuhrers haven't done worse?


The problem is that you are so biased that you cannot make a distinction between faith and its adherents. What I'm trying to say, and you simply ignore it, is that it is not only following the doctrine that makes you a Christian but living your everyday life in accordance with your religious values. I believe it is the same with other religions. So if your God that you believe in, says: Don't kill, love your enemies and so on and you don't follow it in your daily life you are not a Christian. Simple as that. Of course you can still go to your church and play a comedy but it doesn't change the fact that you are a hoax.

I don't judge our sweet Adolf in terms of his fate after death. Certainly we think that God can forgive the most cruel murderer if he repents before his death. However it doesn't mean that he lived a christian life. It only means that he realised how evil he was and asked for forgiveness.

Sorry but you are totally mistaken about papal infallibility. It has nothing to do with political or social issues. It also doesn't imply that the pope is morally infallible. This is the only source I can give here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

But I admit I'm singing an exotic song on and on so I'll give in just to make you happy. wink
It is an indisputable fact that our Adolf was a true and pious Christian, a man of pure virtue, an impeccable lamb. He deserves to be called a saint and we all hope that he now resides in heaven, where he prays fervently for us all that we won't go mad in this boring peaceful world. Now as this faithful and sacred sheep has gone who is left to entertain us?

Hope you now like it. grin
_________________________
Just gonna stand there and watch me burn. Well that's alright because I like the way it hurts.

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#436946 - 11/03/10 12:12 AM Re: End of Earth Postponed [Re: anna]
Delta Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 6750
Loc: Nar
I'm actually impressed you know what Papal Infallibility means, I figured I'd throw it in with the phrase as most Catholics don't and shame themselves at that point by giving up.

The bible, and even the verbose Catholic canon are so broad in interpretation that any adherent can pick and choose. You like to pick the happy sunny loving god, others choose to pick the vengeful murderous god. Similarly, you choose to ignore the fact I've pointed out ad nauseam- That the most evil men in the world have acted from the very same love of god and will to obey scripture that you do.

A moot point since you've just admitted your love for Hitler. Sarcasm or not, enemy or ally, if you obey Jesus you'll love even your enemy. I'm most amused to think that as a good Christian you must love me too.

laugh laugh
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#436950 - 11/03/10 02:11 AM Re: End of Earth Postponed [Re: LordofDarkness]
I'mPerfecting Offline


Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 221
Loc: Florida
Well my friend, I see you are still up to your old tricks.

LOL, I suppose it could become a new Satanic holiday, Dooms-Day we could do it every year and party like it's the end of the world. Pick a day any day, it will cooler than "Stuff To Say You Love Me In The Name Of god Day (christmas)"

I think that it would be a lot more fun. The winner will be who ever chooses the day the world really ends. Yay, you'd get to be right congratulations the prize is death, not cake today. I would be sad because then I wouldn't get presents for Dooms-day but at least someone was finally right. Isn't that what truly matters it's not the stuff, the fire works, the food, or vacations you can't afford, but being right deep down the only thing that matters, the true "spirit" of Dooms-Day would be the end of the world. (sarcasism)

I think it's a great idea my Dooms-day will be every Friday the thirteenth, and on the next 666 I might live through. I will use the religious holiday excuse and get to celebrate twice a year and it will replace cristmas and it will be just like Armageddon only a lot less free stuff.
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"...And the truth that makes us laugh, will make you cry!"
"...Porcelain in a paper cup world."
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#436952 - 11/03/10 05:00 AM Re: End of Earth Postponed [Re: anna]
munt Offline


Registered: 09/13/10
Posts: 23
Loc: Land of viscosity
Originally Posted By: anna
Just what the hell can you know about that...


I love it when a christian gets "hot under the collar".
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#436953 - 11/03/10 05:21 AM Re: End of Earth Postponed [Re: anna]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1812
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: anna
Ok. You are right about this skin use being no more than a widespread myth. I've just rushed in and made a fool of myself without checking this thing.


"a widespread myth", as in singulars, one myth? I called you out on two errors relating to using skin.

- that the nazis did this in the concentration camps
- that french revolutionaries, which you refered to as atheists, did the same thing

So which one are you conceeding?

Originally Posted By: anna
Still, it can't be denied that the Nazis used to play with human bodies in the form of ruthless medical experiments and anatomic examinations.


Since I specifically stated in my criticism of your claim "I'm not bringing doubt to any of the others", why do you need to reiterate this. Please refrain from this kind of strawman arguments, since I never stated this, you don't get any points for refuting it.

Originally Posted By: anna

I'm really at a loss what made holocaust a Christian thing. That Hitler, in his madness, believed he was a pious Christian, doesn't mean he was one in reality.


You are making a broad generalization here instead of trying to address the actual statements about what happened. Even your own countryman pope John Paul II admitted that the role of the catholic church during world war II was problematic, I refer you to the section "Apologies" in this article You actually made the same generalization about the French revolution, which you attributed as an atheist-only event.


Originally Posted By: anna

And this is just what I'm trying to say. Everything boils down to human nature, a belief can make a person better but it doesn't have to. Every man has a free will and takes responsibility for his life. Religion can help you to be a good person but, in the end, it is what you do in your daily life that really matters.


No, what you say and what I say are not equal. Religion states that certain things are a priori good or bad, I do not agree. Just to take two examples of "good" christian values that you have emphasized "Don't kill, love your enemies" - if I follow these during wartime I have a very real chance of putting myself and my loved ones in mortal danger - for instance if somebody who may or may not be a christian come to put them in camps.

If I don't follow the "Don't kill" during peacetime I become a danger to society, and quite possibly myself, unless I'm a police officer protecting others.

What is needed is not moral absolutes and the paradoxes they lead to, but rational thought.
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While having never invented a sin, I'm trying to perfect several.

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#436954 - 11/03/10 05:23 AM Re: End of Earth Postponed [Re: anna]
Shade Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 6135
Loc: A Trailer Park
Originally Posted By: anna
I believe it is the same with other religions.


I think so. At least, I can see a parallel with Satanism.

Lots of weirdos out there claim to be Satanist, born that way, acting in accordance, talk the talk, walk the walk etc when they're really just "playing the comedy" (devil-worshiping), mentally unstable or worse. They queer up the original meaning, cherry-pick bits from TSB, twist it out of context to suit their personal interpretation and use it as an excuse to do really un-Satanic things. I guess they might even be defacto Christians but whatever they are, definitely not Satanists.

"How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four; calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg." (Abraham Lincoln)

Originally Posted By: anna
Hope you now like it. grin


That really made chuckle. Not bad, little a, not bad at all. coopdevil
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"What happens in the shadow, in the grey regions, also interests us all that is elusive and fugitive, all that can be said in those beautiful half tones, or in whispers, in deep shade." ~ The Brothers Quay

We're Just Regular People

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