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#435982 - 10/23/10 09:45 AM The Consciousness
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 757
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
Somehow, I am always brought into a heated discussion about "the consciousness" as being some hidden self-awareness that goes beyond the physical reality that we know of.

My opposite of the discussion suggests it to be energy inhabiting a body, or a spirit controlling the flesh. She doesn't make clear as to what exactly it is. Apparently, she approaches it from a scientific point of view. Then she stated that all of this existence and our consciousness was created out of intelligent design whether it be a god of some sort, or something els.

If you must know, she claims to not be spiritual as in the worship of gods/godesses that have five million names (exaggerated)

I know that all she's trying to do of course is to prove to me that something regardless of what it is, is controlling our bodies. I have my doubts until proven otherwise.

She links this consciousness to be the source of being inlove and as being the source of motivation to do what you're most passionate about. So in her concept, the consciousness is required in order to advance in society.

(If you guys don't mind, I'm giving as much information as possible so you can give the best conclusion of what you all think.)

My question is: What is your opinion regarding the (non)existence of the consciousness? There are many aspects of the consciousness according to what I've read.

Some people agree with it being just another aspect of reality while other's consider it to be something beyond the physical world as we see it that which inhabits the body.

_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

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#435983 - 10/23/10 10:27 AM Re: The Consciousness [Re: LordofDarkness]
Machismo Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: New Jersey
Doubts, suspicions, and a definition are all I have to offer.

I define consciousness as, responsiveness that incorporates as a key component the sense of self and is intimately involved with the processing of information.

I doubt consciousness will ever be explainable by chemistry alone.

I suspect that if androids ever achieve a sense of self, their makers will have no clue whatsoever how that happened.

I suspect information and the sense of self are as fundamental to reality as force, and that these three are absolutely all there is.

I suspect space and time are subordinate components of information and that's the only existence they have.

I suspect that all creatures are conscious, from the macroscopic down to the microscopic.

I suspect that ritual magic can impact the outer universe precisely because information is as fundamental as force, and because space and time have no existence except as information.

I can't prove a single damn word of any of that.
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#435988 - 10/23/10 01:11 PM Re: The Consciousness [Re: LordofDarkness]
Riddles Offline


Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 82
Loc: Maryland
I suggest reading Douglas Hofstadter's Pulitzer Prize-winning classic "Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid". It is a very thoughtful book which explores how consciousness can arise, how complexity can come from simplicity (emergence), and how meaning can arise in an indifferent materialistic universe. The ultimate goal of the book was to argue that true sentient A.I. is possible, but the path was more interesting than the goal, and it has some interesting discussion regarding things like consciousness.
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#435990 - 10/23/10 01:14 PM Re: The Consciousness [Re: Machismo]
Riddles Offline


Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 82
Loc: Maryland
Originally Posted By: Machismo

I can't prove a single damn word of any of that.


This brought a healthy smile to my face. The art of misdirection has its uses, but sometimes just being blatantly forthright is very refreshing.
_________________________
"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first."
--Mark Twain

"Egoism is the very essence of a noble soul."
--Friedrich Nietzsche

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#435994 - 10/23/10 01:40 PM Re: The Consciousness [Re: LordofDarkness]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
Quote:
My question is: What is your opinion regarding the (non)existence of the consciousness? There are many aspects of the consciousness according to what I've read.

Some people agree with it being just another aspect of reality while other's consider it to be something beyond the physical world as we see it that which inhabits the body.

One cannot esacpe existence and consciousness.

Source
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�Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.�
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

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#435996 - 10/23/10 01:54 PM Re: The Consciousness [Re: LordofDarkness]
Nahash Prince Offline



Registered: 01/15/03
Posts: 197
Loc: Currently at large
An excellent topic Lordof Darkness. I understand the conscious to be an existence that “IS.” Although one can not tangibly grasp it, one can tangibly feel the affects and effects of consciousness. The conscious is like, “Air.” I am careful to say conscious (ness) rather than, “IT.”

I understand the conscious to be “Self.” It’s different from subconscious, (a state of unawareness). The conscious is, “IS.” It is the “I AM.” I understand the conscious as the “NOW.”

No matter how I look at the conscious, the conscious is always the “NOW.” Some say spirit, some say soul and even “God.” I guess it is because the conscious can be judgmental. The conscious can also be trained. No matter what, the conscious will always exist “NOW.” When the mind (conscious) dies (I am not talking about the brain where supposedly the conscious dwells), we are nothing more than matter (dead or living).

Until the world has scientifically shown proofs otherwise, here is where I stand concerning consciousness. You and I are here “NOW.”
_________________________
"Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than
those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual
development", has become the most vicious animal of all!"...Dr. La Vey

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#436006 - 10/23/10 03:21 PM Re: The Consciousness [Re: LordofDarkness]
Shade Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 6135
Loc: A Trailer Park
I see this mainly from a bioethics perspective (something I'm happy to explore by myself but rarely have the stamina to discuss with others).

Mr. Obsidian brought this paper to my attention some time ago and it remains the most reasonable approach for me. Very easy to read, understand, digest. Nice holiday from the Headache Country this topic (defining consciousness) normally inhabits.

Jung's collective unconscious and Joseph Campbell's stuff on archetypes are both endlessly, deliciously fascinating things too. And much less cringe-inducing than bioethics. smile
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#436014 - 10/23/10 05:09 PM Re: The Consciousness [Re: LordofDarkness]
anna Online


Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 219
Loc: Poland
For me the most insightful is Jungian theory of the conscious and the unconscious. Our consciousness, that means what we know about the world and ourselves, is very limited. The larger part of our psyche, the unconscious is hidden.

So to admit that we know very little or nearly nothing is the first step to wisdom.

Originally Posted By: Youngwolf
I understand the conscious to be “Self.” It’s different from subconscious, (a state of unawareness). The conscious is, “IS.” It is the “I AM.” I understand the conscious as the “NOW.”

No matter how I look at the conscious, the conscious is always the “NOW.” Some say spirit, some say soul and even “God.”


For C.G.Jung our true Self comprises both consciousness and the unconscious, it is a union of light and darkness. Our Ego is a very small part of it and is subjected to it. Jung equates the Self with the Soul and God.

I find his approach very wise and fascinating.
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#436020 - 10/23/10 07:11 PM Re: The Consciousness [Re: LordofDarkness]
inky Offline


Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 103
Loc: USA
conscious /con·scious/ (kon´shus)
1. having awareness of one's self, acts, and surroundings.
2. a state of alertness characterized by response to external stimuli.
3. in Freud's terminology, the part of the mind that is constantly within awareness.


consciousness /con·scious·ness/ (-nes)
1. the state of being conscious.
2. subjective awareness of the aspects of cognitive processing and the content of the mind.
3. the current totality of experience of which an individual or group is aware at any time.


The point I'm trying to make is that by definition our conciousness is based on our surroundings...not a mystical force that inhabits our bodies. If said phenomenon were in fact the case, then it wouldn't qualify as conciousness by definition given your actions and perceptions would not be your own.

According to science, our bodies do produce an energy, and are controlled by chemical and electrical impulses controlled by the brain.

Intelligent design is a bad joke. It's parameters state that a living being can just appear and exist without going through the clear process necessary in all of nature. It's a broken theory and created by madmen.

As far as any further argument on the subject I think you'll find it quickly turns into what I call "The Matrix" paradox. It turns into fits of fantasy and wild conspiracy theories. But what else can you expect from Keanu Reeves.

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#436022 - 10/23/10 07:50 PM Re: The Consciousness [Re: anna]
Nahash Prince Offline



Registered: 01/15/03
Posts: 197
Loc: Currently at large
Well said anna and a good point of reasoning. HS!
_________________________
"Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than
those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual
development", has become the most vicious animal of all!"...Dr. La Vey

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#436023 - 10/23/10 07:52 PM Re: The Consciousness [Re: inky]
Nahash Prince Offline



Registered: 01/15/03
Posts: 197
Loc: Currently at large
A very good breakdown Inky. HS!
_________________________
"Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than
those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual
development", has become the most vicious animal of all!"...Dr. La Vey

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#436031 - 10/23/10 10:59 PM Re: The Consciousness [Re: LordofDarkness]
Adveser Offline


Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 429
Loc: California
Our brain is primarily an electrical system, much like a circuit. And there is a lot of research that suggests that electronics and circuits operate on the laws of general physics and quantum physics as well. It goes without saying that we can not observe or really understand quantum physics at this time to know how our system responds to it or electrically how the whole thing works or it's relationship to the electric/magnetic fields around us.

In short and very generalized, yeah, there is something going on we don't understand, but simple human oversimplification and outright assumptions under the framings of cultural identities have made the nature of our existence questionable at best. The believers that take anything that may have originated in this manner on faith. The doubters that need absolute proof will dismiss the very concept because of the cultural and social origins. A catch 22. An atheist thinks he already knows there is nothing deeper going on than surface perceptions and the faith based will never investigate the truth of the matter. Scientists don't get cushy research grants to find out anything that can not be commercially exploited, so we have a long way to go apparently before we figure out our total relationship to our environment.

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#436034 - 10/23/10 11:16 PM Re: The Consciousness [Re: Adveser]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12560
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:
...so we have a long way to go apparently before we figure out our total relationship to our environment.


There are mysteries that have not yet been plumbed by the human mind.

The trick is to be around to do so!

Trick and treat! wink

Happy Halloween! jack

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#436038 - 10/23/10 11:41 PM Re: The Consciousness [Re: LordofDarkness]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11554
Loc: New England, USA
Like "society" or "the economy", the word "consciousness" is one of those over-simplified terms we use to refer to some kind of intangible, complex, compiled network of sorts. But that doesn't make it supernatural. Spiritualists seem to dogmatically claim that consciousness is some unique ability unique to humans, and that this makes us tremendously special, which is bullshit. Even a computer program can be said to have "consciousness" on some level. What makes our brain do the thinking isn't a soul; it's a compilation of many but simple programs of sorts.

Originally Posted By: LordofDarkness
Some people agree with it being just another aspect of reality while other's consider it to be something beyond the physical world as we see it that which inhabits the body.

The latter group consists of mystics and nitwits. To quote The Satanic Bible: "He no longer can view himself in two parts, the carnal and the spiritual, but sees them merge as one, and then to his abysmal horror, discovers that they are only the carnal -- AND ALWAYS WERE!
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#436043 - 10/24/10 01:06 AM Re: The Consciousness [Re: Bill_M]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 757
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
Mr. Bill M, I thank you very much for your input! It's straight-forward as always and most informative.

I also would like to thank everyone for their inputs as well. You have given me quite a few valid points and sources of information to look into. Most of it supports my personal view.

HS!
_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

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