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#437873 - 11/17/10 07:39 AM Psychotic and Religious
Zsche Offline



Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 158
Loc: Where the 5.56 casings fall...
To me – these two terms have identical meanings.

Recent news stories reflect exactly what I mean – especially when fanatics use “divine inspiration” or “signs from god” to dictate and justify their actions. Of course – these people are normally deemed insane and unworthy of standing trial for their crimes. Responsibility seems to be a foreign concept to most of these individuals as well as to the current legal system.

I find it funny that instead of “The Devil made me do it” that the more recent defense is “God told me to do it”… It’s about time the old geezer started taking some responsibility for the sick, twisted escapades of his followers. Ok – I’m attempting to be funny, but who is it that determines the line between spiritual enlightenment from a deity and a mental disorder? Does anyone else see these as the same? Aren’t all religious people psychotic?

psy•cho•sis
noun: fundamental derangement of the mind characterized by defective or lost contact with reality especially as evidenced by delusions, hallucinations, and disorganized speech and behavior



_________________________
Originally Posted By: Phineas
My suggestion to you, besides obtaining a copy of The Satanic Bible and reading it, is to immerse yourself in the information contained at the Church of Satan website.

Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
You can't guzzle whiskey and pinch pretty ladies' asses when you're dead.

Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster
Love life. Live life. Don't fuck with people unnecessarily. Don"t let other people fuck with you. Simple guidelines that that will help you to make informed, intelligent and Satanic decisions.

Originally Posted By: Callier
Constructive criticism is one thing but people that just point blank tell others what they should be doing with their lives without any kind of permission can eat a bag of hairy balls.

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#437874 - 11/17/10 08:45 AM Re: Psychotic and Religious [Re: Zsche]
Shade Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 6135
Loc: A Trailer Park
Originally Posted By: Nibas
Aren’t all religious people psychotic?


Ssssssatanism? wink

I get what your saying but it seems like kind of a slippery slope to make such a generalization. Who decides which beliefs (philosophy, ideology, etc) are legitimate and which are irrational? How can a society be founded on religious freedom on one hand and condemn religion on another?

Legally, I think there's more to determining a person's accountability than whether or not they are a fanatic. I think competency hearings are a little more complicated than that.
_________________________
"What happens in the shadow, in the grey regions, also interests us – all that is elusive and fugitive, all that can be said in those beautiful half tones, or in whispers, in deep shade." ~ The Brothers Quay

We're Just Regular People

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#437875 - 11/17/10 09:13 AM Re: Psychotic and Religious [Re: Zsche]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
I tend to think that anyone who subscribes to a spiritual religion or one that demands belief and or devotion to an unseen deity is in need of mental health at the very least. Take a look at how Christians view the biblical character, Abraham. They regard him as the father of faith. Why?

According to the tale in his and his wife's old age they had a Son named Isaac. He was named this because upon hearing that his wife was with child Abraham started laughing with great emotion. So his God then named the child Isaac, meaning "laughter". Isaac continued to bring laughter and joy to his parents according to the story and his God remained absent at that time.

Then, one day out of the blue Abraham is contacted by his absent God. His God demands that he take Isaac to a distant land and sacrifice him by burning him to death! Abraham agrees and takes his Son to the location and begins to perform the deed. At the last second his God tells him that he was just testing him and that he is pleased with him and Isaac is spared the flames. Insanity!

Fast forward to modern times and we see cases like those of Andrea Yates, Susan Smith, Deanna Laney and many more that can be quickly found by googling Susan Smith "god told me to do it". The only difference between these women and the biblical character Abraham, is that Abraham had some sanity left and decided against the murder. Each are insane and is why I think that each and every person who admits belief in a spiritual religion needs mental health treatment.

Now we Satanists are religious too. However, we have chose the carnal over the spiritual and we as our own Gods make pragmatic choices that better our lives while remaining grounded in the earth . Satanism is healthy and is a religion of truth and humanity and is far from Psychotic. Unlike the spiritual religions and child murdering Christians who look to their biblical characters for inspiration and then claim the Schlosser-Laney defense.
_________________________
�Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.�
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

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#437876 - 11/17/10 09:20 AM Re: Psychotic and Religious [Re: Shade]
Zsche Offline



Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 158
Loc: Where the 5.56 casings fall...
Originally Posted By: Shade

Ssssssatanism? wink


Heh heh – Point taken Shade. I always enjoy your responses and posts. I suppose I personally don’t see attempting to adhere to the philosophy laid down by Doktor LaVey as being religious – but perhaps I am mistaken. My opinion is those who adhere to religions with an external entity which directly communicates and dictates how they should live their lives are seriously deluded and have lost contact with reality. Maybe I’m the one who is psychotic?

Originally Posted By: Shade

I get what your saying but it seems like kind of a slippery slope to make such a generalization. Who decides which beliefs (philosophy, ideology, etc) are legitimate and which are irrational?


I think this is a personal decision that everyone makes. Someone in the government or judicial system must be making these determinations on a legal level for the rest of us. As stated before – I think anyone who claims to receive divine inspiration from a deity or claims to be in direct communication with such an entity is crazy.

Originally Posted By: Shade

How can a society be founded on religious freedom on one hand and condemn religion on another?


Indeed – but hasn’t this been done since this country was founded? Those in political power determine what is just and right for the rest of us.

Hail Satan!
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Phineas
My suggestion to you, besides obtaining a copy of The Satanic Bible and reading it, is to immerse yourself in the information contained at the Church of Satan website.

Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
You can't guzzle whiskey and pinch pretty ladies' asses when you're dead.

Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster
Love life. Live life. Don't fuck with people unnecessarily. Don"t let other people fuck with you. Simple guidelines that that will help you to make informed, intelligent and Satanic decisions.

Originally Posted By: Callier
Constructive criticism is one thing but people that just point blank tell others what they should be doing with their lives without any kind of permission can eat a bag of hairy balls.

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#437877 - 11/17/10 09:30 AM Re: Psychotic and Religious [Re: Lust]
Zsche Offline



Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 158
Loc: Where the 5.56 casings fall...
Originally Posted By: Tier Instinct
Each are insane and is why I think that each and every person who admits belief in a spiritual religion needs mental health treatment.


These are perfect examples explaining my point exactly. In today's world, just for mentioning the fact that he was thinking about sacrificing his child to a deity - Abraham would have his children taken away by social services and rightfully be placed in a mental institution where he would spend a considerable amount of time being heavily medicated and studied.
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Phineas
My suggestion to you, besides obtaining a copy of The Satanic Bible and reading it, is to immerse yourself in the information contained at the Church of Satan website.

Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
You can't guzzle whiskey and pinch pretty ladies' asses when you're dead.

Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster
Love life. Live life. Don't fuck with people unnecessarily. Don"t let other people fuck with you. Simple guidelines that that will help you to make informed, intelligent and Satanic decisions.

Originally Posted By: Callier
Constructive criticism is one thing but people that just point blank tell others what they should be doing with their lives without any kind of permission can eat a bag of hairy balls.

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#437878 - 11/17/10 09:42 AM Re: Psychotic and Religious [Re: Zsche]
anna Offline


Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 219
Loc: Poland
Quote:
Ok – I’m attempting to be funny, but who is it that determines the line between spiritual enlightenment from a deity and a mental disorder?


The court, the police, the psychiatrists. The answer is very simple. If they are competent enough, there shouldn't be any problems. Unfortunately, the people who are responsible for the security of the whole society, are often so biased, ignorant and superstitious that they easily give credit to whatever the criminals say. And they can say anything to avoid punishment.

Quote:
Recent news stories reflect exactly what I mean – especially when fanatics use “divine inspiration” or “signs from god” to dictate and justify their actions. Of course – these people are normally deemed insane and unworthy of standing trial for their crimes. Responsibility seems to be a foreign concept to most of these individuals as well as to the current legal system.


As I said they can lie to get away with their crimes. Being put in a mental hospital is a better option for a criminal than being put in prison. However some people really suffer from mental disorders and should be cured. Good psychiatrists can tell whether a person simulates an illness or he is really insane.

Quote:
Aren’t all religious people psychotic?


Only our views are right. We are the only ones who are wise, intelligent and sane. All those who think differently are: psychotic, stupid, irresponsible, idiotic and so on and so forth. This is what all the fanatics think, Muslims, Christians, Atheists, Jews, Pagans...

A citizen's thoughts, dreams and beliefs are not to be judged by the court. The important thing is whether a person obeys the law or not. If not, he/she should be punished, no matter if he/she serves God, the Devil or something in between.
_________________________
Just gonna stand there and watch me burn. Well that's alright because I like the way it hurts.

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#437880 - 11/17/10 09:58 AM Re: Psychotic and Religious [Re: Zsche]
Shade Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 6135
Loc: A Trailer Park
(Thanks,smile)

Religion and politics are kind if inseparable. When one swears to tell the truth in court I think it's still done on a bible. Oath of office, pledge of allegiance... God's got his finger in a lot of pies.

And definitions of "crazy" change all the time. Sometimes it just means, "not like everyone else". It's a powerful indictment with a lot of potential repercussions, some of which are probably not immediately obvious.

Ag, I’m not very good at this. Hopefully, smarter, more articulate folks than I will reply to your topic.

One thing I have learned over the years though is the assertion that "this applies to everyone but me" (everyone's religion is crazy but mine) is usually a little too popular to be practical. Know what I mean, jelly bean? Nobody thinks they're the crazy one. Especially the crazy ones. grin
_________________________
"What happens in the shadow, in the grey regions, also interests us – all that is elusive and fugitive, all that can be said in those beautiful half tones, or in whispers, in deep shade." ~ The Brothers Quay

We're Just Regular People

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#437882 - 11/17/10 10:16 AM Re: Psychotic and Religious [Re: Zsche]
Zsche Offline



Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 158
Loc: Where the 5.56 casings fall...
Originally Posted By: anna
However some people really suffer from mental disorders and should be cured.

This statement sums up my thoughts exactly when I asked the rhetorical question: “Aren’t all religious people psychotic?”

Originally Posted By: Shade
One thing I have learned over the years though is the assertion that "this applies to everyone but me" (everyone's religion is crazy but mine) is usually a little too popular to be practical. Know what I mean, jelly bean? Nobody thinks they're the crazy one. Especially the crazy ones. grin

Great response – especially the last two statements. I’ll try to keep this in mind. Thanks!

Hail Satan!
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Phineas
My suggestion to you, besides obtaining a copy of The Satanic Bible and reading it, is to immerse yourself in the information contained at the Church of Satan website.

Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
You can't guzzle whiskey and pinch pretty ladies' asses when you're dead.

Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster
Love life. Live life. Don't fuck with people unnecessarily. Don"t let other people fuck with you. Simple guidelines that that will help you to make informed, intelligent and Satanic decisions.

Originally Posted By: Callier
Constructive criticism is one thing but people that just point blank tell others what they should be doing with their lives without any kind of permission can eat a bag of hairy balls.

Top
#437883 - 11/17/10 10:50 AM Re: Psychotic and Religious [Re: Shade]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: Shade

I get what your saying but it seems like kind of a slippery slope to make such a generalization. Who decides which beliefs (philosophy, ideology, etc) are legitimate and which are irrational? How can a society be founded on religious freedom on one hand and condemn religion on another?

Legally, I think there's more to determining a person's accountability than whether or not they are a fanatic. I think competency hearings are a little more complicated than that.


Yup. The implications and potential risks here are so great, and the lines so fuzzy, some people have actually refused to discuss this exact subject with me!

The sticky wicket is that people who appear to be more-or-less "sane"--that is, apparently free of any clearly diagnosable neurological or psychological disorder or deficit-- can still latch on to absolutely ridiculous beliefs, so where do you draw the line between "too ridiculous," and "just ridiculous enough?"

Of course, asking that kind of question requires you to at least wade into the murky waters that are value judgments, because what one person finds utterly beyond-the-pale batshit nutso, another may consider not so bad, and still another may think is totally reasonable. So, you can end up with a situation where Mike Huckabee and Osama bin Laden are each trying to have the other committed wink.

And, since MOST human beings are religious or theistic in some shape or form, it really doesn't help to declare that 90%+ human beings are "psychotic," because then psychosis loses all meaning and usefulness as a diagnostic term.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#437884 - 11/17/10 10:53 AM Re: Psychotic and Religious [Re: Zsche]
Dax9 Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 752
Loc: near Baton Rouge, LA
Positively, I would argue that terrorists and suicide bombers who murder and wage havoc in the name of Allah (or whatever) in the hope of being rewarded with ninety-nine virgins in the afterlife are mentally insane. As for most Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, and others I would classify as being misguided or misinformed, being that the majority of these religionists live basically "normal" lives. More radical groups such as Jehovah's Witness members are either brainwashed or living their lives in reaction to guilt; I have known several "born again" Christians who are trying to compensate for things they feel remorse for from earlier in their life.

At the beginning of this deployment a Wiccan soldier told me about another brother in arms who practices astral projection. I became interested. After talking with him I discovered that he had a copy of Astral Dynamics by Robert Bruce and was a pre-medical student back home at Tulane University -- a very intelligent guy. To my bewilderment and disgust he later told me that he was a devout Christian and regarded the Bible as a manual for how to live one's life. What the fuck? I thought he would have been an occult student. Once again, I would label him as misled but not stupid or psychotic.

They say that the definition of insanity is when one continues to do the same things over and over again yet always expects different results. By this reasoning I would propose that anyone who tirelessly accepts illogical religious tenets that never improve the quality of life as correct is probably mentally imbalanced.

As Satanists we always test things first and never accept anything on blind faith. If a religion's teachings cannot be directly tested and validated, it is probably unsound. (And this is putting it very politely! rip)
_________________________
"The difference between the man or woman who's a practicing Satanist, from an identity Satanist is that the practicing Satanist looks at the picture, while the identity Satanist studies the frame."
-- Anton Szandor LaVey

"Anyone without a sense of humor is too pretentious to be a good magician."
-- Anton Szandor LaVey

Life Everlasting

World Without End





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#437899 - 11/17/10 12:35 PM Re: Psychotic and Religious [Re: TrojZyr]
Zsche Offline



Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 158
Loc: Where the 5.56 casings fall...
Originally Posted By: TrojZyr
Yup. The implications and potential risks here are so great, and the lines so fuzzy, some people have actually refused to discuss this exact subject with me!

I am delighted to find that someone else has attempted to pursue this topic with others Witch TrojZyr. I am also grateful to have an environment where I receive intelligent responses to such a topic.

Originally Posted By: TrojZyr
The sticky wicket is that people who appear to be more-or-less "sane"--that is, apparently free of any clearly diagnosable neurological or psychological disorder or deficit-- can still latch on to absolutely ridiculous beliefs, so where do you draw the line between "too ridiculous," and "just ridiculous enough?"

Wouldn’t “(latching) on to absolutely ridiculous beliefs” be considered a form of psychosis? - “defective or lost contact with reality especially as evidenced by delusions” smile

Originally Posted By: TrojZyr
And, since MOST human beings are religious or theistic in some shape or form, it really doesn't help to declare that 90%+ human beings are "psychotic," because then psychosis loses all meaning and usefulness as a diagnostic term.

Perhaps the method of determining the diagnosis of psychosis needs to be modified to include anyone who subscribes to a belief system where they communicate with and take direction from a non-existent entity? Don’t get me wrong Witch TrojZyr – I’m not arguing with you, I just enjoy stimulating discussions.

I’ve personally witnessed people speaking in tongues, casting out demons, and claiming to have received direct communication from “god”, which to me equates to unrealistic delusions and auditory hallucinations, as well as disorganized speech and behavior.

I’m not saying that everyone is crazy – just 90%+ wink
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Phineas
My suggestion to you, besides obtaining a copy of The Satanic Bible and reading it, is to immerse yourself in the information contained at the Church of Satan website.

Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
You can't guzzle whiskey and pinch pretty ladies' asses when you're dead.

Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster
Love life. Live life. Don't fuck with people unnecessarily. Don"t let other people fuck with you. Simple guidelines that that will help you to make informed, intelligent and Satanic decisions.

Originally Posted By: Callier
Constructive criticism is one thing but people that just point blank tell others what they should be doing with their lives without any kind of permission can eat a bag of hairy balls.

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#437901 - 11/17/10 12:45 PM Re: Psychotic and Religious [Re: Zsche]
anna Offline


Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 219
Loc: Poland
Quote:
I’m not saying that everyone is crazy – just 90%+


And what's wrong with being crazy? whistle grin
_________________________
Just gonna stand there and watch me burn. Well that's alright because I like the way it hurts.

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#437902 - 11/17/10 12:57 PM Re: Psychotic and Religious [Re: anna]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1812
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: anna
Quote:
I’m not saying that everyone is crazy – just 90%+


And what's wrong with being crazy? whistle grin


Somehow, after watching how you continue to evade logical rational debate in several topics here on this site, I'm not really surprised to find you being an advocate of mental illness as a preferred state of mind.

At least that would account for the delusion you often express, about you being able to act on behalf of your deity in determining who is a proper member of your faith and who is not.
_________________________
While having never invented a sin, I'm trying to perfect several.

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#437907 - 11/17/10 04:36 PM Re: Psychotic and Religious [Re: anna]
Zsche Offline



Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 158
Loc: Where the 5.56 casings fall...
People who are crazier than me – scare me…

I posted this in another thread but it seems appropriate again here:

Originally Posted By: Nibas
To quote Magus Gilmore from his book The Satanic Scriptures: "Reliance on fantastic constructs becomes dangerous when the believers in spiritual religions dogmatically insist that their personal or collective fantasies are real in the world at large, that they are the only absolute truth, and then wait for the myth to guide them or try to force others to share this delusion."

The next line in the chapter reads, “This has been the source for countless wars, as any student of history can see.”

THIS – in my opinion is one of the things that is wrong with being crazy.
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Phineas
My suggestion to you, besides obtaining a copy of The Satanic Bible and reading it, is to immerse yourself in the information contained at the Church of Satan website.

Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
You can't guzzle whiskey and pinch pretty ladies' asses when you're dead.

Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster
Love life. Live life. Don't fuck with people unnecessarily. Don"t let other people fuck with you. Simple guidelines that that will help you to make informed, intelligent and Satanic decisions.

Originally Posted By: Callier
Constructive criticism is one thing but people that just point blank tell others what they should be doing with their lives without any kind of permission can eat a bag of hairy balls.

Top
#437912 - 11/17/10 05:18 PM Re: Psychotic and Religious [Re: Zsche]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Quote:
Wouldn’t “(latching) on to absolutely ridiculous beliefs” be considered a form of psychosis? - “defective or lost contact with reality especially as evidenced by delusions” smile


A form of delusion, certainly.

Now, psychosis is defined by hallucinations, delusions, disorganized speech ("word salad"), strange behavior, catatonia, disorientation, and/or rapid mood shifts. Certainly, someone can be deeply religious and psychotic--and, indeed, the two do often go together--but if all or most religious people were, say, full-blown Schizophrenic, we'd all be in deep trouble wink.

Now, whether some deeply religious people can experience brief psychotic episodes that quickly descend and just as quickly dissipate is another question. What do we do with people who go into trances and, say, start speaking in tongues, or engage in self-mutilation, or experience full-blown hallucinations? You could make a case for psychosis there, certainly--but then, in the greater scheme of things, that's a minority of religious folk.

Well, and getting back to your comment above, you also run into the problem of who gets to define what's "ridiculous," or who's "out of touch with reality." Everyone at Fox News will want to institutionalize everyone at Democracy Now, and vice versa! When setting up the diagnostic criteria, so to speak, you'd have to walk a very fine, delicate, clear line, and work very hard to prevent corruption or misinterpretation of the rules and standards.

Quote:
Perhaps the method of determining the diagnosis of psychosis needs to be modified to include anyone who subscribes to a belief system where they communicate with and take direction from a non-existent entity?


You'd have to be very, very clear about what it does and doesn't mean to communicate and take orders from a non-existent entity, though, or else the streets would run with the blood of shrinks and lawyers. wink
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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