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#44192 - 06/11/04 02:57 PM 16 million considering Separation of SCHOOL & State?
Z3ro3X Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/30/03
Posts: 186
I got this email and it reminded me of an article I read on the COS website about school systems so I thought I should share it.

Dear Liberator Online reader,

Imagine *16 million people* seriously considering getting
children out of government schools!

I seldom send you stand-alone messages like this one,
but I received this too late to include it in the most recent issue
of the Liberator Online, and I wanted you to know about it.

This is a major breaking story that gives you and me
an opportunity to make a real difference for liberty.

Please take a few moments to read the message below
from Advocates Founder Marshall Fritz, and see the action
steps YOU can take to help make this happen. Thank you!

Sharon Harris, President
Advocates for Self-Government


****************************************

Over 7 million children are in non-government schooling---
about 5.25 million conventional private and religious
schools, and 2 million in home schools.

Every parent who refuses to allow the state to school
his/her children wins a victory for quality education and
the cause of freedom from government school indoctrination.

If you're glad these parents have separated **their**
families from state schooling, you might get as excited as
I am about this development:

The largest Protestant denomination in America---Southern
Baptists, with 16 million members---will be voting next
week on a resolution calling on their members to remove
their children from government schools!

It's very consideration is already causing the beginning
of a stir: Favorable articles have shown up in the Boston
Globe, the Wall Street Journal, WorldNetDaily, the
Washington Times. And the O'Reilly Factor is trying to
schedule one of the Baptists who submitted the resolution.

And vastly more attention would undoubtedly result if the
Southern Baptists actually pass a "get the kids out"
resolution. This will be so appalling to the mainstream
news that "Mr. Dan" Rather will be whining on the 6:00 news
and "60 Minutes" is sure to do a hit piece.

Pray for a slow news week and Time and Newsweek might make
it a cover story, full of dire predictions of the demise
of America if the Baptists pull their 4 million children
from the schools.

If you're not a Southern Baptist, or a Protestant, or even
a Christian, you may think this has nothing to do with
you, but it does.

1) You probably know people who are Southern Baptists, or
2) For sure, you know people who belong to other
denominations that might be interested in passing a
similar resolution in the future in their group.

This could be an important new front in the fight for
educational choice. Religious and denominational
differences should not divide us in our common desire to
expand school choice ... ending federal interference in
local schools and taking a major step toward making all
schooling private.

I am setting up a new organization---initially as part of
the Alliance for Separation of School & State---to promote
this concept in other groups.

We call it GetTheKidsOut.org.

What can you do TODAY to help move the Baptists in the
freedom-in-schooling direction?

1) send this email to everybody on your personal email
list who is religious, or likes the freedom philosophy, or
both. Ask them to send it to their friends.

2) post this email to any online newsgroups or discussion
forums you frequent.

3) CALL any Southern Baptists you know and urge them to
advise any "Messengers" (SOBAPT lingo for delegates to
their convention in Indianapolis next week) of this
resolution.

4) visit www.GetTheKidsOut.org and sign up for the monthly
online update on Get The Kids Out.

Thank you for reading this. I get too much email, too.
But this is important and URGENT.

Yours,

Marshall Fritz
Interim Director, GetTheKidsOut.org
President, HonestEd.com
(Alliance for the Separation of School & State)
1071 N Fulton St, Fresno CA 93728
(559) 499-1776 fax 499-1703

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#44193 - 06/11/04 04:30 PM Re: 16 million considering Separation of SCHOOL & State? [Re: Z3ro3X]
Max Rose Offline


Registered: 11/17/03
Posts: 285
Interesting. Although it is religious in nature and I think that these people are basically just looking for a way to force more religion and less science down the throats of the young, I still think this is a good message. While I am not for the abolishment of the public education system, I am definetly all about reform. I believe that if this happens then it may get the public schools to rework their systems.

And even it it doesn't, it just means 4,000,000 less religious children clogging the system. More learning for everyone else

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#44194 - 06/11/04 06:14 PM The business of the State SHOULD be education! [Re: Z3ro3X]
Flavius Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 2777
Loc: BridgePort
Another dangerous piece of shit from the Religious Right.

Does anyone personally know people who have attended a private Evangelical/Baptist school? Have you seen the curriculum they use?

I have. These idiots can spout dogma about sin and redemption all day, but can't tell you shit about the actual workings of the U.S. government, basic events in history, or construct a logical and well-structured essay. Science..."God made it happen."

I prefer my public education. It was a perfectly adequate starting point for my intellectual growth. Some of my teachers were bitter and sucky, some carried on valiantly, and a memorable few actually inspired the search for deeper knowledge.

In fact, let me dare to speak the truth: For the reasonably inteligent and motivated student, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the typical public school education in America.

A lot of the handwringing about public schools from the right carries a hidden agenda: By making public schools appear more flawed than they are (Via skewed testing procedures and punishments without funding assistance as in NCLB) the door is open to reduce the tax base further by cutting enrollment with "Religiously driven" pullout drives like this one. Then, the public schools look even worse, and eventually, the only possible (Oh we hoped it wouldn't have to come to this, alas ) solution is complete privatization of American education.

Maybe Haliburton/Argenbright can run it, and shuttle the malcontents directly into privately-run prisons or draft them into service as "Contractors" (under-paid mercenaries) in the everlasting war on Drugs/Terror. Maybe they can take eight times the value needed in taxes and build some nice new schools...in Iraq.
_________________________
-Flavius.
Resident Psychic.

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#44195 - 06/11/04 06:58 PM Re: The business of the State SHOULD be education! [Re: Flavius]
Frequency Offline


Registered: 07/04/02
Posts: 841
Loc: Montreal
I find that a good teacher makes it or breaks it. If the teacher can't expand on what is given and doesn't make it interesting I lose my focus very easily. I've always had lots of difficulties in school. If I had say... my parents teach me in a loving way I would learn faster. I also feel that there shouldn't be such a strong reliance on a "good education" in society. Regurgitating what you learn is not a good education imo. All that shows in someone is that they can follow orders and mindlessly perform work.

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#44196 - 06/11/04 07:37 PM Re: 16 million considering Separation of SCHOOL & State? [Re: Z3ro3X]
Citizen_Parker Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/15/03
Posts: 217
While I agree with Flavius and do not think children will necessarily receive better educations if taken out of public schools (especially since a huge increase of students in the private sector would result in the same watering-down common-denominator tactics that plague public schools) this "movement" may have beneficial consequences.

If it becomes a big issue in the media, and the Southern Baptists do pull out four million kids (or at least come very close) this may ruffle enough governmental feathers to encourage improvements in the public school system.
_________________________
Hail Satan!

Parker

Test Everything. Believe Nothing.

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#44197 - 06/12/04 12:58 AM Re: 16 million considering Separation of SCHOOL & State? [Re: Z3ro3X]
Chaoslillith Offline


Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 150
Loc: Hawaii
The way I look at the schools is this. They are public, therefore they respond to what the taxpayers want. Let's see now. Between parents suing schools because their kids failed, the fight over standaradized testing, the bilingual and inner city schooling issues and all the other problems inherent in trying to please everyone the schools end up making sacrifices. The result, mediocrity. All the push to private schools will do is stratify society even more and those who are born poor or in bad surroundings are liable to get less of an education. If parents and kids pushed responsibility and a desire to learn and grow schools would be wonderful. I attended public school all my life and was continually challenged by my excellent teachers. The level of education is only as good as people are willing to have.
_________________________
"Rule in Hell or serve in Heaven, Choose an altar or a throne..." ManoWar

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#44198 - 06/12/04 01:20 AM Re: 16 million considering Separation of SCHOOL & State? [Re: Chaoslillith]
Frequency Offline


Registered: 07/04/02
Posts: 841
Loc: Montreal
The result, mediocrity. All the push to private schools will do is stratify society even more and those who are born poor or in bad surroundings are liable to get less of an education

One of the reasons I am against capitalism but still cannot find a viable alternative. Making money translates to providing to the needs of society at large, which imo translates to mediocrity aswell. Just look at the foods they sell in grocery stores for evidence of this; healthy food is being replaced for marketable and cheap to produce food. Good music is being replaced by easily manufactured mass marketed music. Good movies are being replaced with mindless CGI fests. For the good bands that put out albums do they recieve the return that Britney Spears would get? No. For the movies being put out do they recieve the box office numbers that a film like The Day After Tomorrow would get? No.

It seems that if you make shit for the herd to swallow, you make more money. If you do something original and unique more often than not you need other jobs to support your work. That never sounded right to me.

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#44199 - 06/12/04 01:30 AM Re: 16 million considering Separation of SCHOOL & State? [Re: Frequency]
Chaoslillith Offline


Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 150
Loc: Hawaii
I have to disagree a bit with you. Look at "good Will Hunting", "Dead Poets Society", "Girl, Interrupted", "Erin Brockovich"...all great movies that received recognition without special effects. In movies there is room for true originality and it will be rewarded. Music is a bit different because it is harder to get air time if you do not fit the trend. However, look at Norah Jones, Tori Amos, Alanis Moriesette and Cake. These artists have unique sounds, have someething to say and get noticed. There is a lot of trash out there but in many cases the true talent does rise to the top. Britney is stil there because she is blond and has a body but that will fade in time.

Capitalism does allow for many unique things to be sung, produced etc. so I do not like to complain too much about the crap that goes along with it. One has to remember too that in a lot of cases true artists are not after the money and that is why they do not get as much publicity. They are not willing to jump through hoops to be on top for another month. They play, sing, act, draw what they want and are happy with that. They want to be appreciated for what they have to offer not what gimmicks they can sell.
_________________________
"Rule in Hell or serve in Heaven, Choose an altar or a throne..." ManoWar

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#44200 - 06/12/04 01:44 AM Re: 16 million considering Separation of SCHOOL & State? [Re: Chaoslillith]
Z3ro3X Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/30/03
Posts: 186
I also noticed that some solo singers tend to fade into nothing just as fast as they rose to the top. As the herd brings these people to the top (like Brittany Spears) they can easily get bored with them and move on to a new solo singer. There are Bands who have to work there ass's off to get to the top but at the same time they stay at the top just as long as it took them to get up there. This rule doesn't apply to all bands, it's just a pattern I've seen every now and than. It almost seems like physics, for every action there's and equal and opposite reaction.

And also, I would recommend not getting off topic of this post. I my self couldn't care less, but it annoys some mods as well as others on this forum. And some post that go off topic have a tendency of getting locked and I'd prefer that not happen with mine.

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#44201 - 06/12/04 02:11 AM Re: 16 million considering Separation of SCHOOL & State? [Re: Z3ro3X]
Chaoslillith Offline


Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 150
Loc: Hawaii
My apologies..
_________________________
"Rule in Hell or serve in Heaven, Choose an altar or a throne..." ManoWar

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#44202 - 06/12/04 02:38 AM Storm in a teacup [Re: Z3ro3X]
jon_wolf Offline


Registered: 05/21/04
Posts: 40
Hah. Those so-called "suthern baptist" Xtians will not take their kids outta public schools. Not the masses of all these good ole suthern boys, I know because I live in the Deep South. They are easily led, and distracted sheep.
They are interested in "bread and circuses".
All mesmerized by the TV, and the fad of the moment.
Nothing but howling hypocrites, the whole foul lot.
I wish they would take their equally idiot children out of public school and then I could get a nice credit or reduction in the damned school taxes I pay.
The clowns stumping for this scheme are probably share holders in the private school consortiums.

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#44203 - 06/12/04 09:52 AM Re: Storm in a teacup [Re: jon_wolf]
Flavius Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 2777
Loc: BridgePort
Very insightful.

The other factor - poor stupid Southern Baptist idiots can't afford to send their children to private school in most cases.

...unless they can get vouchers.
_________________________
-Flavius.
Resident Psychic.

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#44204 - 06/12/04 12:13 PM Re: 16 million considering Separation of SCHOOL & State? [Re: Z3ro3X]
Mike_Hargis Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/29/04
Posts: 825
Loc: Bensalem, PA (Philly 'burbs)
I'm all for the SoBap's pulling their kids out, as this will free up teachers to pay more personal attention to the kids left in the schools (like MY daughter!). It would also reduce taxes as a result of the reduced student populace. The reduced work load on teachers would mean weeding out of teachers who just collect paychecks & don't really teach! So, please, SoBap's...pull your kids out - NOW!!!
_________________________
Love completely those who deserve your love, & hate just as completely those who deserve your hatred! Hail Satan! Mike Hargis

www.myspace.com/satanist_in_pa
www.massagespace.net/Details/CMT-in-NE-Philly
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#44205 - 06/12/04 04:07 PM Re: 16 million considering Separation of SCHOOL & State? [Re: Z3ro3X]
Insurgent Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 2312
This is totally insane. These idiots have no idea of the consequences, ever!

Most of the working class in America have no time to home school their children and certainly can't afford private schooling. If it were to be affordable for each person at each private school the quality of education would be so far below what we have in public schools now because the PAY would be so far below what teachers already get.

I've seen the curriculum for "affordable private education." It's shit. Pure and utter shit. The information is even more blurred and out of context than public education, and lets not forget the fact that it's rife with Christian myth, slander, and insanity.

I personally agree with mandatory public education. Without it those mere producers who can't be anything else will just become more of a strain on the entire system because they won't be able to be productive. They won't have the training. And of course, their parents probably won't be able to afford anything resembling the standard of state education now. So we have an even bigger unemployment build-up. Wonderful for Baptists (as all things vile are), bad for America.

Even worse is the times in which they present this idiocy. The economy in America is going downhill fast and that means the working class has to work harder to maintain the level of financial stability that they had only a few years ago. Once again, the majority of the people don't have either the time or the money for state funded schooling to be shut down. Especially right now.

State funded and run education lightens the load on society as a whole. These people are just stark raving mad because they can't have Jerry Falwell do his "God spoke, thus science" routine in our schools. They aren't concerned about children or America.

What is the government supposed to do when most people can't afford the only school system? Just go voucher crazy and basically pay for education like it does now but the differences being that it's substandard and keeps people more open to accept blatant lies, it's NOT SUBJECT to church and state seperation, nor to most justified American laws concerning children and civil rights? Oh yeah.... I guess so.
_________________________
My site: www.josiegallows.com

"My dear Insurgent you're an extremist, intolerant and you have prejudices. That's all."

"I am a fucking Satanist and desire in all of my being to be the Queen of the World if at all possible...."

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#44206 - 06/12/04 04:20 PM Re: 16 million considering Separation of SCHOOL & State? [Re: Mike_Hargis]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
On the downside, however, there will be a large group of poorly educated children who will go on to be poorly educated adults, who will clumsily, dangerously, and stupidly fill various social roles and jobs.

Your other points are quite valid, I'm just shedding some darkness on the light, as I am wont to do at times.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#44207 - 06/12/04 04:56 PM Mandatory Education: Teaching Pigs To Sing [Re: Z3ro3X]
Z3ro3X Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/30/03
Posts: 186
In my earlier post I mentioned a link to an article on the COS website dealing with school systems. I found it really enlightening so here it is. http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/MandatoryEducation.htm

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#44208 - 06/12/04 08:03 PM Re: 16 million considering Separation of SCHOOL & State? [Re: Insurgent]
Silence Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 311
Loc: 29 Palms, CA
Quote:

I personally agree with mandatory public education. Without it those mere producers who can't be anything else will just become more of a strain on the entire system because they won't be able to be productive. They won't have the training. And of course, their parents probably won't be able to afford anything resembling the standard of state education now.




Have you seen some of the fuss in the last few years about America's graduates? People get a free ride through high school and college because they are good football players. Some people graduate from COLLEGE not knowing how to read!

Having first-hand knowledge of the current public education system, I can say that it is in none of the school administrators' agenda(at least not at MY school) to truly educate students. Most of the principals and teachers only care about getting an "Exemplary" rating from the state - if they can achieve that, their job is done. Hence, the education is only slightly more than mediocre.

In Texas, the state test for high school graduates until this year was the TAAS(Texas Assessment of Academic Skills), which tested in reading, writing, and mathematics, and also only required about 50% correct in order to pass. Most teachers agreed that the material was severely below grade-level too.

This year, there is a new test called TAKS(Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills). Since this is its first year, the passing threshhold was set at only about 48%, but it is going to increase to(I think) 70% in the next few years. The material is also much harder.

My point is that public education is not the "cream of the crop." People still graduate with bare minimum classes, and grow up to become unproductive lowlives. It IS in desperate need of reform, but I'm not sure what pulling out millions of SoBap kids would do. I'll be out of public school soon enough, though, so it probably won't affect me directly.

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#44209 - 06/12/04 08:05 PM Re: 16 million considering Separation of SCHOOL & State? [Re: TrojZyr]
Silence Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 311
Loc: 29 Palms, CA
Quote:

On the downside, however, there will be a large group of poorly educated children who will go on to be poorly educated adults, who will clumsily, dangerously, and stupidly fill various social roles and jobs.




How would that be different from now?

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#44210 - 06/12/04 09:12 PM Re: 16 million considering Separation of SCHOOL & State? [Re: Silence]
Insurgent Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 2312
I agree. I may be a little off but the guy who basically layed the groundwork for our public school system stated that our "education" is training, not education, because an actually learned population is a discontent and uncontrollable population.

But the curriculum for a lot of these private schools is much worse. It's hard to imagine almost.

And public, government funded, and mandatory education is far more easy to reform than thousands of privately owned and operated sectarian brainwashing camps which is what will become of education if these ninnies get their way; the abolishment of secular education, essentially. It's much easier to reform a system if you only have one office to go through and that office controls the whole system.
_________________________
My site: www.josiegallows.com

"My dear Insurgent you're an extremist, intolerant and you have prejudices. That's all."

"I am a fucking Satanist and desire in all of my being to be the Queen of the World if at all possible...."

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#44211 - 06/12/04 10:02 PM Re: 16 million considering Separation of SCHOOL & State? [Re: Silence]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Actually, that's not a bad question.

Hell forbid, it might get worse.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#44212 - 06/13/04 10:32 AM Re: 16 million considering Separation of SCHOOL & State? [Re: TrojZyr]
Mike_Hargis Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/29/04
Posts: 825
Loc: Bensalem, PA (Philly 'burbs)
Damn you! Damn you to Hell for pissing in my Cheerios! And I just bought them, too!
_________________________
Love completely those who deserve your love, & hate just as completely those who deserve your hatred! Hail Satan! Mike Hargis

www.myspace.com/satanist_in_pa
www.massagespace.net/Details/CMT-in-NE-Philly
www.brightfuse.com/mikehargis
www.facebook.com/people/Mike_Hargis/1381346496

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#44213 - 06/13/04 02:31 PM Re: 16 million considering Separation of SCHOOL & State? [Re: Mike_Hargis]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Heh, and I'm normally an optimist. Must be my lack of good nutrition. Maybe I should have some Cheerios....

Anyway, I have no doubts that we can handle pretty much any state of affairs in society, so I'm not being a gloomy doomsday-ist, by any means. Satanists can thrive in societies where the people are smart, and in societies where people are dumb. But, sometimes, one or the other is easier to handle, obviously.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#44214 - 06/13/04 05:33 PM Re: 16 million considering Separation of SCHOOL & State? [Re: TrojZyr]
Smokey_DeVille Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 595
Loc: Chicago
Quote:

On the downside, however, there will be a large group of poorly educated children who will go on to be poorly educated adults, who will clumsily, dangerously, and stupidly fill various social roles and jobs.




One perspective I have on this topic is that very notion.

I am not nor have ever been Southern Baptist, but I have known (quite well) a few Baptists, who were pretty devout (by which I mean fanatic). Chrisitanity thrives on ignorance and blind faith. Public education counters that by not teaching a faith-based curriculum, but one that suits the needs of the state. Therefore, if the Baptists were to ensure the ignorance of their children, and replace education with faith, they can ensure that the only option their children have is a close "relationship with god", as they put it.

One question I do have is if there is an increase in Southern Baptist schools in these areas, as an alternative to public education. Church is a business, and businesses thrive by luring sheeple from one product/service to theirs. Who excactly is this person trying to organize this, and what has he to gain?

Hail Satan!

L 9
_________________________
Church of Satan

[url=http://www.smokeydeville.com [/url]


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#44215 - 06/14/04 10:39 AM Re: 16 million considering Separation of SCHOOL & State? [Re: Z3ro3X]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11546
Loc: New England, USA
>The largest Protestant denomination in America---Southern
>Baptists, with 16 million members---will be voting next
>week on a resolution calling on their members to remove
>their children from government schools!

This was the same group who tried to boycott Disney at some point. Worked great, didn't it?
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

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