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#444795 - 02/09/11 10:19 PM Realization of Intelligence as a child?
Liberterius Offline


Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 241
I wonder how common this experience was among Satanists...

When you were really young, like Elementary school, (or the equivalent in other countries; ages 6-11 about) were you a LOT smarter than the other kids? Like, maybe not on EVERY subject, (math has always been a weak spot and boring topic to me) but in general, you excelled way ahead of the class?
I knew about the basic structure of atoms in 2nd grade, I knew all kinds of just random facts on history and science, I mastered concepts and could write way better than the average very quickly.
Me and one other boy (still good friends now; that should be telling) in my 3rd grade class especially I remember; we were on a whole nother plane above the others. Like...it's hard to remember specifically a lot of examples, it was so long ago, but we were extremely intelligent. We played RTS (real time strategy) games on PC a lot. Outpost 2 and Starcraft for example; intended for teenagers; we were 8.
We had better vocabularies and could talk circles around our peers it was great. We read books intended for young adults before we were 10.
I credit my parents upbringing a lot. Early childhood learning and reading at home. As I got older, of course things evened out, though I still excelled in the subjects I liked in school, and have always been in some ways more intelligent than the average high school and now college student. I have my weaknesses; in social subtlety and shyness. (In which I've improved...I'm a classic 2-4 range though on the Clock. 4 to be exact.)
And nowadays I'm still way more intelligent than average. I'm more critical, I question things, I THINK more than the average person. I have philosophy and "meta" thoughts; I look at things from different perspectives, question motives, make historical analogies, look past face value. All things most of the herd have a TON of problems with. And that's a lot of why I'm a Satanist, though of course I didn't realize myself as such (or even EXPRESSLY an atheist) for a very long time after my Elementary years.

Did many others of you have similar experiences growing up?
Way ahead of the class in general knowledge and cognitive abilities?

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#444809 - 02/10/11 01:14 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Hatred_Incarnate Offline


Registered: 03/26/09
Posts: 124
I was raised in a house where learning was encouraged, not forced. I learned to read a little earlier then usual, but from then on I was reading books that were intended for children several grades ahead of me all through elementary school. When I was in 6th or 7th grade I started reading some Nietzsche, a book or two by someone who survived nazi internment camps (his name escapes me currently and my father, who introduced me to the author, is asleep), Tuesdays with Morrie, the 'conversations with god' series (well before I knew I was a Satanist) along the book series 'The Dark Tower' by Stephen King. About halfway through 8th grade, I picked Stephen Hawkings 'A Brief History of Time: From the Big Bang to Black Holes.'

Another thing I noticed was my quickness with math. I'm not real sure when exactly this happened, possibly from the very beginning. I was always good at mental math, able to do most equations in my head, or with a calculator when permitted, only writing down answers to part of the equation here and there for later mental computation. Needless to say, I got in ALOT of trouble for not showing my work on assignments and tests. I never did it and the teachers eventually gave up trying to get me to show my work, probably because my answers were almost always correct.

I also remember one time in 4th or 5th grade, out on the playground away from everyone except one of my friends, the only one on par with me in the entire school by a long shot, were talking about evolution and god. We went to the same church and had sunday school together, and were taught the usual story about creation and blah blah blah. On this particular day during recess, we were talking about god, evolution and how we didn't agree with it. We concluded that god had created everything initially, but didn't create all living creatures in their present forms. We believed that he merely started off life with a few cells of bacteria and only intervened here and there to keep things moving forward. We kept this to ourselves, even though sharing it with our parents would have done no harm (our church and parents are quite liberal.)

Now he is an atheist, and I'm obviously a Satanist. We don't talk anymore, aside from a mutual friends birthday party. But even then it isn't in depth.

I'm also curious as to what age everyone on this message board discovered you were a Satanist. No intention to hijack your thread Liberterius, I'm just curious and this seems a fitting place to pose such a question.

I was 16 at the time and ironically enough it was a week or two before xmas.
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Thanks to denial, I'm immortal.
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Crocodilians take better care of their young then a lot of parents I know.
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#444812 - 02/10/11 04:18 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Machismo Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: New Jersey
My parents did one thing very right. If I asked for a book, they bought it for me. A very different response from what I got if I asked for, say, a toy, or some fast food snack between meals.

Two treasure troves in particular stand out -

World Book Encyclopedia - these look like the ones I had

How & Why Wonder Books - I had all four depicted here, and many more
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#444821 - 02/10/11 09:49 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
My experience was similar is some ways to yours, and dissimilar in others. In grade school, one of my teachers called my parents distressed because I was a social outcast. She did mention that she favored me, and that I tested second highest in the school on an IQ test…info she was not supposed to divulge. I don’t remember learning to read. I was always either the best, or one of the best readers in class. In math, one teacher was a little upset that I found patterns to math problems that made it easier for me to find answers. She preferred we used all the steps we were taught. I don’t remember studying for a biology test; but I did make all A’s. In the junior high, I was in the Junior Beta Club, an honors society.

But, alas…a series of events that are not important took place that changed my attitude about school, society and all things deemed important to “fit in”. I ended up graduating last in my class. I cannot explain why. If anyone is familiar with a certain Zen story concerning a monk, a fish and a job offer in a palace, they may get a hint of what makes me tick. In hindsight, I will admit that I sometimes regret not making more of an effort. I can also attest that, sometimes, intelligence can be a hindrance in unseasoned hands. I have a suspicion similar stories might be common around here.
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#444822 - 02/10/11 11:21 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10571
Loc: England
>> When you were really young, like Elementary school, (or the equivalent in other countries; ages 6-11 about) were you a LOT smarter than the other kids? Like, maybe not on EVERY subject, (math has always been a weak spot and boring topic to me) but in general, you excelled way ahead of the class? <<


No, I was bordering on retarded and sat at the back of the class with my mouth gaping open and my tongue hanging out for the better part of most of the lessons.

I hated school and couldn't wait to get out at the end of the day so I could get home, jump into my own clothes and race off over the swamp near where we lived to catch frogs and build tree-houses.

At the very first opportunity I left school at the age of 15 without a single academic qualification to my name.


>> And nowadays I'm still way more intelligent than average. I'm more critical, I question things, I THINK more than the average person. I have philosophy and "meta" thoughts; I look at things from different perspectives, question motives, make historical analogies, look past face value. All things most of the herd have a TON of problems with. And that's a lot of why I'm a Satanist <<


Realistically, I would say I'm only of average intelligence.


I'm just harmlessly in the background. Nothing for anyone to pay any mind to.
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#444823 - 02/10/11 12:31 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: Liberterius
When you were really young, like Elementary school, (or the equivalent in other countries; ages 6-11 about) were you a LOT smarter than the other kids?


I always did really well in school, but I can think of a few key moments of realization that I was a step above most of the others.

I could read sometime before the age of 4. I think it was my teacher from nursery school (or as it's more often called these days, "pre-K") who realized this and informed my parents. My kindergarten teacher however was clueless about that fact until my parents happened to mention it one night at a parents-teachers meeting. The very next day, she excitedly pulled me aside, pulled out a book, and pointed to each word in succession, asking me to read it. I remember thinking "Why is she asking me to read this slowly, one word at a time? She could just ask me to read this normally." Soon after, I was receiving separate education from her in the back of the room, from a different book.

Another event that comes to mind happened in 3rd grade. In math class, we had an assignment that was a page of geometry brain teasers, like "How many triangles are in this figure?", "How many circles do you see?", etc. As is always the case with problems like these, there's much more than meets the eye. I was excited to them, and even though I got two of problems wrong, I still did the best out of anybody else in the class. A lot of the other students were getting one or two CORRECT, at best. The teacher put my paper up on the bulletin board for all to see.

Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster
In math, one teacher was a little upset that I found patterns to math problems that made it easier for me to find answers. She preferred we used all the steps we were taught.


In some cases, certain mathematical conventions are taught because even if they might not be the best for simple problems, they do help you solve more complicated problems you face later on. For example, when some students are first taking algebra they might opt to do problems in their head, or take a "brute force" approach (keep guessing until they find an answer that works), instead of writing an equation to solve. But then a week or two later they're presented with problems where that strategy no longer works and they're forced to catch up on learning the strategies they've been blowing off.

Aside from those cases though, it's really stupid when the emphasis is on sticking to convention and not learning. There's always more than one way to solve a math problem, and the irony is that going-through-the-motions doesn't help you solve the more challenging problems in math. If we could always just blindly rely on a formula, we wouldn't have so many unsolved problems in mathematics (and believe me, there are problems out there that have continued to stump the best of the best for centuries).

As I've said before, I can't say "fuck the system!" because the system has worked for me: I went to college, went to graduate school, and established a lucrative career. But public schooling in the U.S. is, in a word, a joke. A lot of students are only doing well because they're just good at retaining and regurgitating information. What's worse, is that kind of behavior seems to be encouraged and rewarded in the school system. Thankfully, I had the opportunity to go to a private high school where they treated you like an adult (expecting you to act like one too of course), there was plenty of room for creativity, and the teachers were excellent and passionate about the subjects they taught.
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#444824 - 02/10/11 01:05 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Quote:
When you were really young, like Elementary school, (or the equivalent in other countries; ages 6-11 about) were you a LOT smarter than the other kids? Like, maybe not on EVERY subject, (math has always been a weak spot and boring topic to me) but in general, you excelled way ahead of the class?


During my elementary years my teachers noted that I had impeccable spelling and reading capabilities. One teacher also noted that I was "smarter than the average bear." Of course considering what average is that places me right above retarded. grin
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#444828 - 02/10/11 01:59 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
I'm stupid as fuck. But there are some who are stupider. You gonna give me a cookie or what?
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reprobate

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#444830 - 02/10/11 04:18 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
DCLXVI Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 07/13/06
Posts: 1064
Loc: U.S.A.
Having a sister just 13 months older than I am, she started school (naturally) a yeard ahead of me. (In the late 1950s, in a small town in Western Oklahoma, there was no kindergarten.) When she would bring a book home from school, somehow, I just "knew" I could read it, and did. I did this all through my sister's first year of school.
When I started the next year, I was amazed at all the books and things that could be learned from them.

History, science, English literature & math were always my favorite subjects. Though "English" was a bore to me. (I never understood the reason for "diagramming a sentence." I thought, "I can speak fairly well (for a damned "Okie") so, what the hell is the point in all this?

By the seventh grade, I had (quite literally) read every non- fiction book in the school library. And most of the fiction that I deemed worthwhile ("Catcher in the Rye" and "Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner" stand out.)

Reaching age 17 during the height of the war in VietNam, I dropped out of school and enlisted.
I haven't been back to school since, but still research various things that interest me and continue a sort of "self education."
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#444831 - 02/10/11 04:45 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
anna Offline


Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 219
Loc: Poland
Quote:
No, I was bordering on retarded and sat at the back of the class with my mouth gaping open and my tongue hanging out for the better part of most of the lessons.

I hated school and couldn't wait to get out at the end of the day so I could get home, jump into my own clothes and race off over the swamp near where we lived to catch frogs and build tree-houses.


I had some students like this. They were not interested in school because either they were lazy or (more often) they found school boring, tiring and oppressive. However such students, though troublesome, are often talented and imaginative. If they want, they can get good marks without too much effort.

Very often the school system is at fault. My students from the agricultural school have the opinion of being the most stupid folks in the town. It is a small school so there are only a few hours a week for the teachers to work but the students have eight or nine lessons a day and some of them have kids. No wonder they are often tired.

Quote:
Realistically, I would say I'm only of average intelligence.


It is hard work that counts more, at least at school. I used to have good marks because I spent a lot of time studying. However, I found many subjects useless and boring. I think that in the secondary school students should chose four or five subjects that they want to study instead of wasting time learning everything.

The university is a much more pleasant experience because you can study what interests you and happily ignore everything else.
_________________________
Just gonna stand there and watch me burn. Well that's alright because I like the way it hurts.

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#444842 - 02/10/11 09:47 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1024
Anna,

I LOVE you.

You roll with the punches.

You make lemonade out of lemons.

You go where you want, not necessarily where is usually followed.

You are so YOU,

smile
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#444848 - 02/11/11 12:54 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: anna]
Lamar Drummer Offline


Registered: 09/16/10
Posts: 133
Loc: Alabama
Originally Posted By: anna

The university is a much more pleasant experience because you can study what interests you and happily ignore everything else.


Do whaaaat?

I wish that I could pick and choose exactly what classes I could take at my college and not worry about other subjects that have nothing to do with my major.
Shit, I bet I'd have about two classes then.

I have never been at the top of my classes in school. I have like a mild case of dyslexia in some things, mostly math. Comprehending things back in elementary somtimes was a challenge, it sort of is now at times depending on the subject.

I wouldn't just say that I'm an absolute idiot though. I excel in music and writing.
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#444861 - 02/11/11 08:02 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Lamar Drummer]
Adam-9sense Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 704
In kindergarten, if I am remembering correctly, it took me a bit longer with reading involvement, and with the rest of the early grades I was much more focused on making the class laugh and keeping the girls eyes than the school work.

In 4th grade I wrote a story about a woman who was attacked and killed by a stalking werewolf, fully illustrated. The assignment was liberating and exciting. This is where I excelled above the others in my class.
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9sense Podcast- A Satanic Perspective of Our Modern World

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#444862 - 02/11/11 08:05 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
LightAngel Offline


Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 1681
Loc: Denmark
If you are so intelligent, then how come you don't question what intelligence really is?! jack

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#444885 - 02/11/11 04:27 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: TheAbysmal]
anna Offline


Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 219
Loc: Poland
You are so kind. smile

@Lamar Drummer
At my university we had a few subjects which were obligatory and the rest were optional. Still you chose the area of your study. My major was English literature, history and culture. The minor was American culture and practical English. There was no Science and no Maths, Biology or Geography, which I had to learn at school.
_________________________
Just gonna stand there and watch me burn. Well that's alright because I like the way it hurts.

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#444890 - 02/11/11 05:14 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Furrtiv Offline


Registered: 10/04/08
Posts: 112
Loc: Derbyshire, England
Hm, my university experience obviously differs from the US versions, as we simply opted for one subject to study - you didn't have to do both a major and a minor, you could do either a single degree or a combined degree, but you still got to choose.

School was a nightmare for me, but I loved some things - art was my best subject, followed closely by both English literature and English language, and graphic design - before computers! - was great fun. I just love making accurate diagrams and technical drawings with nothing but pencils, rulers, potracters and paper.

Maths was, and still is, the subject that most lets me down. I absolutely loathe it, cannot grasp some of the most basic concepts, and have dyscalculia, so numbers sometimes appear backwards and often don't have any value to them. Certain numbers in combination, especially with mathematical symbols, look like nothing more than fancy squiggles. So all my maths teachers thought I was mildly retarded, whereas my English and art teachers would rave about my prowess. Oddly enough, the concepts of physics appeal to me and I can often grasp them quite rapidly, but lacking maths skills, I can't explore training or a career in the field.

But art is my passion. I can draw anything. It's absolute, pure instinct, and even though art degrees and various courses, books, etc, all claim to be able to teach you how to do art, including how to see things the way an artist does, to me they just fail. I've been trying to teach a subordinate how to "see", and also how to interpret an image before him, all to no avail. He simply doesn't get it, and I can't put him into my head so that he can see what and how I see, and interpret things the way I can. It's virtually an unconscious thing that is an intrinsic part of my being.

Just don't ask me to do maths, particularly not in my head!

Anyhoo, school was weird; I was both a genius and a retard, I guess, but only to other people. To me, I was well, just me. I have problems relating to other humans at the best of times, and a suspicion I have a very mild form of autism, so being aloof and cold towards the other kids at school probably helped to make it even more hellish.

As for when I discovered my Satanic self, well, that was only a year or so ago.

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#444928 - 02/12/11 12:07 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Furrtiv]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: Furrtiv
Hm, my university experience obviously differs from the US versions, as we simply opted for one subject to study - you didn't have to do both a major and a minor,

US colleges in general don't require both a major and a minor. Different schools all have different ideas on what's "best" for the students. That's why there are thousands and thousands of them in the US. They certainly don't all have the same requirements.

Quote:
Maths was, and still is, the subject that most lets me down. I absolutely loathe it, [...] But art is my passion.

I think I just felt a slight rumble from the graves of Dürer, Escher, and Mandelbrot. zombie
_________________________
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#444947 - 02/12/11 04:45 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: anna]
LightAngel Offline


Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 1681
Loc: Denmark
If a student have university-trained parents, then they are often very good in school because of their environment. My husband is a good example of that because his father was a professor, and his mother a doctor.

There is of course exceptions. If you have passion for school, or at least is interested in school, then you will often be good too.

My parents was business people, and they both had their own firms, so my environment was very different than my husband. Even though my father had his own bookstore, they didn't force me to read if I didn't feel like it ( I have to admit that I'm actually a very good, and fast reader wink ) but they had a very relaxed relationship to my education.

They just wanted me to be happy.

I was free to be whatever I wanted to be, academic or not, they just wanted me to have passion for something.


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#444959 - 02/12/11 12:24 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Furrtiv Offline


Registered: 10/04/08
Posts: 112
Loc: Derbyshire, England
Bill_M, I understand that maths can be intrinsic to types of art, but I hit stumbling blocks when I try to use it. Escher is one of my favourite artists and I could never attempt to do what he did. It's just a strange paradox that I enjoyed technical drawing, although I had to concentrate extremely hard to make the numbers needed for it work in my brain. I had to get other people to help me with calculations and to check my measurements.

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#445001 - 02/12/11 11:08 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
womanking Offline


Registered: 11/16/10
Posts: 10
Loc: Wisconsin
Growing up, I was a very shy girl, so I guess excelling in school gave me the attention I craved, attention I couldn’t get from my peers. I was always considered the “teacher’s pet,” and redeemed the title of “Student of the Month” every year in elementary school, usually every September when classes resumed. Being a twin also helped me do my best, seeing as I was always in competition with my sister.

My reading level was always higher than the other students’, and my spelling was exceptional. I probably would have mastered the spelling bees if it weren’t for my stage fright. Math always came easy, and my handwriting was very neat- I remember my 2nd grade teacher asking me to write down announcements for the class since mine was the most legible.

I was never forced into completing my homework, I just did it. I always aimed for perfection, which made me fumble tremendously in high school. Skipping school was a weekly thing for me in my teen years- I spent so much time on assignments that I began to fall behind in every subject. The days I missed would be spent catching up on homework.

Art class and creative writing were always my top priorities- I remember staying up all night just to finish a simple drawing for my weekly sketchbook assignment. My teacher told me it had to be at least an hour’s worth of work- I made it 6. My creative writing teacher told me of my potential to win contests. He said the fluidity and detail of my works were amazing. But I was never in school enough to participate.

I barely graduated high school. In fact, I almost dropped out. Senior year I quit going to my classes. The school’s psychologist sent me books and assignments in order to complete my credits. I also took classes online.

I guess my point is that I had so much potential, but my lack in time management interfered. Other than that, I was always brighter than most. I look back on all this now and wish I would have enrolled in a 4-year college after graduating. I just couldn’t bear the stress anymore. This summer many of my fellow students will be graduating with degrees already. Personally though, I take more pride in painting what I want, or writing about my life rather than taking orders from teachers. I guess I really don’t need a degree to define my talents. I am more passionate in my creations when I am not monitored and graded.

Wow...
I am just now realizing that I don’t have to feel worthless about not continuing my education. I know I have potential, I just have to find a way to use it!
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#445022 - 02/13/11 05:48 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Insurgent Online
CoS Member

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 2318
I don't spend a lot of time gauging my intelligence, but I find very few things I'm interested in or need that I can't understand.

Public school:

I used to have a bit of a chip on my shoulder about my experiences but I don't anymore. Suffice it to say it was a fucking nightmare. I hated every miserable moment of it. I would have been better off if my parents had yoinked me out of it by about the 4th grade and focused exclusively on history, literature and arts, which are the areas I excel at now and did so then.

Ironically, this was the advice "experts" gave to fend off school administrators. The administrators were convinced I needed ample doses of amphetamine duplexes coursing through my veins to learn my times tables.

What a bunch of head butchers.

I was a retard at math and still am; big deal. I can learn the entirety of all the formulas I'll ever need for undergraduate level math courses in two weeks and then forget them in a month. I don't retain it, despite my best effort, and have accepted that unlike the other intellectuals in my family I will not pursue doctoral level sciences.

I had "college level" reading skills and vocabulary by 3rd grade. It instantly set me apart. Other children thought it was freakish that I spoke like an orator.

Those people are now adults that can still barely comprehend High School level literature.

Score one for the home team.
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#445025 - 02/13/11 06:26 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
I was repeatedly punished for not doing homework, for not reading along with the rest of the class, and for being a smart-ass. I didn't study beyond reading the elementary school textbooks once, I didn't read along because everyone read too slow, making waiting for them a total bore. All I wanted to do was go home, play video games, and read the books I found to be actually informative and entertaining. My teachers wanted to advance me several grade levels, even though I I got poor grades, because they felt the reason my grades were so poor was because I was bored (I got D's in math, but I was also tutoring younger students, hyuck!), but my parents refused, they didn't want me to be friendless or an outcast, not realizing that I didn't like my peers, didn't want to be their friends, and was already an outcast, oh the irony.

Anyway, yeah, public education sucks. It would still be useful if America was a manufacturing economy, but we aren't, so now it is soul crushing, broken, and obsolete. Hurray!
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#445026 - 02/13/11 07:19 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Hedonist Offline


Registered: 01/21/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Australia
I'm going to join the 'suck at maths' chorus - I remember early on thinking 'I don't need to know this, and why do I need to know the times tables when I have this thing called a CALCULATOR'. I regret dismissing the alphabet in the same way - even now I need to run through it fast when trying to look something up.

I was definitely smarter than the other kids and gravitated towards adults for as long as I can remember, but smart enough to not show it off too much to become the target of idiot bullies (I actually organized the bullies into a 'police force' by giving them rank and titles and leading patrols around the school ground to 'keep order' by attacking other kids who were fighting until the principal put a stop to it).

My parents actually took away a book I loved to read as a very young child called 'the Mind' (time life library) - they thought my extreme interest in the subject matter to be alien and disturbing.

Long story short, I was probably more cunning and manipulative than academically brilliant as a child, though I excelled at writing and drama.

I do find the common thread (for the most part) of being mathmatically challenged an interesting one..
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#445028 - 02/13/11 07:52 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Spelled Moon Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/25/08
Posts: 1691
Loc: Germany
During my earlier school years, I haven't been paying special attention to how "bright" I was in comparison to others, because almost all kids in classroom had been somehow bright. Since my age of 10, I have been attending classes for the talented children (Math was my specialization) and sensing it like something 'normal'.

Because, whenever I felt better than other kids around, then showed my success or observation off to my parents, they said that my success was not a surprise and I better compared myself with the more experienced ones that I encountered, and not the worse ones.
And I stopped showing off my successes and celebrating my exceptionality. Their attitude has been something to praise and also blame them for, at the same time. But, the approach itself is useful for life and I have adopted it.

So, over years, I have fully understood the meaning of: 'Who is more competent to praise you, than yourself?' wink And satisfaction with the self has become the deepest reward.

And just later, I have understood that I had been 'slightly' different kid than average ones outside my collective.

A talented kid between talented kids, who had her brighter and darker moments.

But I don't build my pride only on my past. A manner of handling of the current mind-breaking situations is what matters. Currently, I've plenty of them, the time to catch up and they try to grow over my head.

But I am not going to let them. smile

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#445029 - 02/13/11 08:39 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
They were moments where I knew that I understood something better (either in terms of the reality of the situation or the conceptual framework in which it was happening), but as a child I never qualified that as "intelligence".

One of my earliest memories for this sort of thing was witnessing my mother overreact to something (though I cannot remember what), noticing the behaviour and identifying it as an overreaction. It was sobering, actually. It made me feel very aware of the world. Suddenly I am not an insular and protected child oblivious to the faults of her parents, but instead I am someone exposed, vulnerable to the irrational motivations of my adult-protector.

In school I was similarly insightful to people's secret and unacknowledged motivations, but I cannot say whether this translated into good grades. I hated school for the most part, and dropped out when I was 14 years old to work as a nanny.

Now, in university pursuing graduate studies in the social sciences, this ability serves me very well. I am rewarded for insightful commentary into people and their underlying drives.

As a related aside, because I have found that people react to my voiced observations on them negatively, sometimes aggressively, I wonder about my own desire to study people in a formal and objective manner; academia is much less personal than individual to individual. Less hazardous also.

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#445054 - 02/13/11 04:09 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Delta Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 6751
Loc: Nar
The earliest bit is one I don't remember- Apparently I was forming sentences under the age of 1 with an abnormally large vocabulary. My parents tell me at one point a kid pointed and stared and told his mother, "Mom! That baby is talking!"

I was best at math at first, which my parents taught me at home in addition to schoolwork. This annoyed my first grade teacher when she taught subtraction and tried to trip us up by asking if you could subtract 5 from 3. Everyone said no and I said -2. The teacher said I was wrong and we argued and I got in big trouble. I don't know why she said I was wrong instead of saying we weren't working on that yet, but it was kind of a harbinger of things to come. I was doing variables and algebra when I was in 2nd grade, but I wasn't talking about it at school anymore.

In the rest of school I did all the gifted programs and advanced classes. My parents never let me skip grades because they thought it would hinder me socially, which was really a non-issue because everyone hated me anyway for using words like "intriguing" and "unremarkable" which I'd learned watching Star Trek and reading Calvin and Hobbes. The advanced classes kept me interested for a short while but when the school ran out of advanced math in 7th grade, they stopped teaching me advanced math and made me go back about 5 years to shit I didn't care about. From that point on I failed nearly every math class because I just didn't care anymore, and now I suck at math like everyone else. I doubt I could even do long division if I tried. They also put an end to letting me audit 12th grade science and pick my own books for English. The teacher who had let me do both got fired, I don't know if his departure was related to the special treatment he gave me, but it certainly ended with him.

After I got kicked out of that school (For always getting picked on, it was tuition based so it was more cost effective to boot the victim than the numerous paying bullies) my parents enrolled me in something called the IB Program which was supposed to be a utopian realm of unbridled education on anything we wanted without any busywork or lack of attention for students to learn at their own rate. It was in fact, all busy work and strictly bound to a curriculum no different from the common AP class, just with harsher grading. I got straight As for a year (And really loved Government and Law class where we held a mock senate and got to filibuster) then dropped out of the program. It was kind of like a horse getting beaten harder to run the same speed. I also began skipping classes in general and I think I saw maybe 5 days worth of class for my last 2 months as a senior. I ended high school with an high GPA, some honor classes and some classes like "Math for the Football Team". I'd figured if I wasn't going to learn I was going to relax, which I did fairly happily and got away with it.

College was more of the same and I left before graduating, which I don't regret given the utter worthlessness of the degree I was after. Basically I took the classes I wanted to learn from instead of the ones that would let me graduate. Everyone had to take at least one "Core" class per semester so I had one worthless shit-heap every time and eventually just stopped going to them. Once I gave up on graduating I learned a lot from the professors and library and the few classes I was allowed to take in my field of interest. Eventually those ran out so I left.

And since this is the thread for it, most of my childhood IQ tests and all the legitimate ones I've taken as an adult have all put me at exactly 144, one point short of genius. Great title for an autobiography.
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#445055 - 02/13/11 04:25 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Shade Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 6135
Loc: A Trailer Park
I don't remember the "other kids" much. Don't have a clue how I fared compared to them. I was off in my own little world.













Still am. grin
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#445061 - 02/13/11 07:11 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Shade]
Entity Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 03/23/02
Posts: 1774
Loc: Avalon UK
That's a straightforward reply and one I can relate to.

I spent much of my childhood extracting noises from inanimate objects, by bashing, stroking, flicking and massaging until I heard something appealing.

My elderly aunt often tells me of how many hours I spent as a two year old turning dials and pushing buttons on her short wave radio to create "songs". And so it was that I spent most of my formative years alienating other people with peculiar electronic noises.

Later, when other kids were studying hard to become mediocre academics, I was utterly consumed by synthesizers and sequencers. I could never understand why nobody else was even remotely interested, so isolation became normal and preferable.

Like you, I love my own little world. coopdevil
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Nothing is better than to live according to one's taste. - François Villon

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#445062 - 02/13/11 07:35 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Entity]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8865
According to my Mom, the third word I ever spoke (after 'momma' and "dada'), was 'stupid'.

I was in a high chair eating my baby mush, and a commercial was on TV.

I pointed excitedly at the screen, and said over and over...

"STUPID!!! STUPID!!! STUPID!!! STUPID!!! STUPID!!!"

I'd watch the shows I liked quite happily, but anytime a commercial came on, it was "STUPID STUPID STUPID!!!"

Judgmental little bugger even then. coopdevil

Then, when I was about four, after learning a friend of the family was in school to become a doctor, I drew an elaborate anatomical diagram explaining how the process of urination worked.

It involved levers and pulleys and tubes and pistons and electrical circuits and what-not. I presented it for confirmation and was most disappointed to learn I wasn't even close, but got points for originality and inventiveness. crazy
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#445063 - 02/13/11 07:52 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Quaark]
Entity Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 03/23/02
Posts: 1774
Loc: Avalon UK
You should come and live in England. Original ways to "take the piss", (mock the stupid), are a national pastime. witch
_________________________
~ Reverend Entity

Nothing is better than to live according to one's taste. - François Villon

Test Everything. Believe Nothing.

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#445065 - 02/13/11 07:58 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Quaark]
Delta Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 6751
Loc: Nar
One of my first was the F word. One of my very first toys was a plastic phone and I would crawl away from it, then rush back, pick it up and slam it back down shouting "Fuck!". It was in emulation of my Mom missing phone calls.
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#445078 - 02/13/11 11:25 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Delta]
Spelled Moon Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/25/08
Posts: 1691
Loc: Germany
Quote:
I would crawl away from it, then rush back, pick it up and slam it back down shouting "Fuck!"


Would enjoy to see that. smile

I don't know, what my first words were, but I was a 'good little girl'. wink

At least... Most of time. grin

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#445081 - 02/14/11 01:23 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Bill_M]
Hatred_Incarnate Offline


Registered: 03/26/09
Posts: 124
Originally Posted By: Bill_M
[quote=Liberterius]
In some cases, certain mathematical conventions are taught because even if they might not be the best for simple problems, they do help you solve more complicated problems you face later on. For example, when some students are first taking algebra they might opt to do problems in their head, or take a "brute force" approach (keep guessing until they find an answer that works), instead of writing an equation to solve. But then a week or two later they're presented with problems where that strategy no longer works and they're forced to catch up on learning the strategies they've been blowing off.



I know where You are coming from for the most part.

When I learned multiplication and division I was frustrated to no end that you had to sit through this lesson while the teacher explained it for the BILLIONTH time to the rest of kids this long procedure about how many times X goes into Y when I could do it in my end within seconds. However, I did pay attention and learned the principals behind the long way to do simple multiplication/division, so when a longer harder problem came along, I could still do it easily, but at this point I needed to write it down. It was elementary school after all.

I had a very similar experience in algebra. I got it the first time it was explained to me, did nearly all the homework in my head for the first few weeks and irked my teacher by not writing down the equation. He let me get away with it because he knew I was fairly smart, even for the other kids who took algebra 1 in 8th grade. (Which at my school really meant something.)

But again, when the harder stuff came, I could easily do it. Although now I only needed to write down answers to parts of the equation, and did the rest on a calculator or in my head. He really tried to get me to show my work at this point, but I still wouldn't. Finally, when the first semester came to a close I didn't have a choice. The problems were quite lengthy and complex, so I needed to write them down. They were really making me think.

As one of my middle school teachers said, I learned through osmosis. I listened to the lecture, did some homework if any, and did pretty damn good on all my tests, especially for not jotting down a single note or studying.

But then I got my depression, and started failing just about every class. My freshman year in HS I had a .338 GPA. I had the worst case of 'don't fucking care' syndrome you could imagine. I was looking forward to the day I turned 18 so I could drop out of school and wait to die in peace.

But luckily my depression cleared up, I got my HSED and went into an audio engineering technical college and got my associates there. Yet again, nearly every class was easy. There were two I struggled with greatly, but it was the teacher. He was trying to get us to learn multiple concepts that you get in the second year of music theory in less then 2 hours a week. Most people did horrible in that class.
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Thanks to denial, I'm immortal.
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Crocodilians take better care of their young then a lot of parents I know.
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#445082 - 02/14/11 01:38 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Delta]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
That must have been hilarious to watch.
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#445087 - 02/14/11 03:35 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
LilithBischoff Offline


Registered: 02/02/11
Posts: 13
Loc: Germany, Berlin
In my youth I was told my teacher that I was smarter than the other. Still, I'm having more and more separated from the others. I could not build a bond with my peers, classmates. I had more older friends though not many, but often times has me in trouble in my life.

That changed today not really. Still I have no contact with the masses, but who wants the whole hog.

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#445110 - 02/14/11 01:37 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Furrtiv Offline


Registered: 10/04/08
Posts: 112
Loc: Derbyshire, England
I agre with that statement, as I too felt, and still mostly feel, no connection to allegedly normal people of my own peer group. It's led to an isolated life, but I have been enriched by the few people clever enough, different enough, or otherwise understanding enough, to get past my barriers and become my friends. What they themselves get from the connection, I couldn't possibly say, as it sometimes baffles me why anyone would be interested in me as a person, beyond what I do, to who I am.

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#445124 - 02/14/11 04:55 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Nammu Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 10/18/09
Posts: 402
Loc: Pacific NW
I remember the minute I learned to read as a child. All the symbols floating on the page finally made sense. At that point school work became the obstacle which kept me from reading.

After the first “coloring contest” I sped through the daily coloring in second grade. As a child my logic was, I have proved I can color once, no need to prove it every school day for the next 10 months. I thought coloring was for babies anyways. I applied this same logic to all other subjects, once I learned something I had no patience for the endless repetition the school system is so fond of.

I would sit in class with tears streaming down my face as I repeated everything. I’d walk home crying and angry every day after 6 hours of torturous repetition. I had no idea how to deal with this level of frustration as a young child. I didn’t understand why I seemed to be the only kid in class experiencing this.

I adored my fourth grade teacher as she let me work at my own pace. I turned in my work for the nine weeks during the second week (after having to rewrite everything a second time due to my illegible penmanship). I read books for the remainder of the term.

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#445861 - 02/23/11 06:13 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
LaVeyanAngel Offline


Registered: 02/19/11
Posts: 7
Loc: florida
I've always been above average in spelling and reading. Which is probably why I'm so good at scrabble now. It's my all time favorite game, yes, I'm a bit of a nerd.

I do have problems with the "ie" and "ei" words though. I can NEVER remember the rule. Doesn't help being slightly dislexic.

But I am absolutely horrible at math, that was my all-time worst subject EVER. The only reason I managed to pass in high school, was because my teacher actually took time out with me to try and explain the problems and as long as I turned in the assignments, I was doing OK. Of course, I was the only 11th grader in a class with a bunch of freshmen.

My elementary school experience was good, I always got honor roll. But once I got into middle school, my self esteem dropped considerably, and I failed miserably.


Edited by LaVeyanAngel (02/23/11 07:00 PM)
_________________________
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#445875 - 02/23/11 08:16 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Spelled Moon]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: Spelled Moon
Since my age of 10, I have been attending classes for the talented children (Math was my specialization)

As I wrote in The Satanic Life, it amuses me how many people take up this "I suck at math" motto, as if bad math skills were genetic. Some people even seem to pride themselves on the handicap! It sometimes makes me wish I was the accountant, landlord, or even waiter for these people. Somebody who can't figure out how to calculate 8% tax or 2/3 of something would potentially be easy to screw over.

It's even funnier when you see people using their computer to angrily denounce mathematics, or rhetorically ask what on earth it's "good" for. When I see this, I usually point out that to post such a thing on the internet you have to be looking at a computer monitor (where the Pythagorean Theorem was used my manufacturers to ensure the right dimensions for the given screen size), maintain a connection on the internet through a server (networking algorithms), log into a website (which safely encrypts and decrypts their password using cryptology), type characters (using binary to other base arithmetic), etc.

A few months ago I ran into somebody on a math forum who was majoring in graphic arts, and was angry about having to take linear algebra. He asked of what use matrices possibly were to him, and angrily "challenged" all of us to "create a pink fluffy bunny using matrices". I asked if he had used any programs like Photoshop for doing illustrations. He said yes, of course. Then I revealed that it's essentially matrix manipulation that allows you do do everything in graphics editing programs: storing certain colored pixels in certain places, stretching an image, skewing, rotating, etc. So all I had to do was whip open MS Paint and draw a bunny. grin
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#445881 - 02/23/11 08:44 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Bill_M]
Delta Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 6751
Loc: Nar
Originally Posted By: Bill_M
As I wrote in The Satanic Life, it amuses me how many people take up this "I suck at math" motto, as if bad math skills were genetic. Some people even seem to pride themselves on the handicap! It sometimes makes me wish I was the accountant, landlord, or even waiter for these people. Somebody who can't figure out how to calculate 8% tax or 2/3 of something would potentially be easy to screw over.


Yes they would:

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#445884 - 02/23/11 09:01 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Delta]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Even if the person whose bill that is can't do math, he definitely left a very good tip for that price.
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"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

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#445898 - 02/24/11 01:23 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Delta]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
Then there's this classic bumper sticker:


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_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

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#445908 - 02/24/11 02:39 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Vale Offline


Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 2
I struggled a lot trying to learn, my dad being dyslexic and my mother a schizophrenic.I barely had any exposure to brain teasers, such as books, games, and math. Little interaction with other people. I didn't get bedtime stories, my father could barely read. I didn't get the enriching environment of education, my mother was too busy arguing with random objects. Though, the only thing my dad did show me was how to look at art. He would randomly paint faces all over the walls. I thought it was so fascinating. Sitting there for hours being his model. Drawing me with the pet cats and ballerinas without heads. Guess what I'm good at? Drawing. Though it may not seem to be some kind of intelligence to others, it is like any other subject


After awhile I figured out that everybody is born differently. I believe that everyone is at the same level. It's just achieving their own goals that makes them successful. The old saying "if there is a will there is a way"

people who are determined to learn and be open minded will go the furthest.

Now I will stop typing.. I sound like some kind of bigot.
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#445929 - 02/24/11 12:58 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Furrtiv Offline


Registered: 10/04/08
Posts: 112
Loc: Derbyshire, England
Hm, with regards to the being bad at maths - doesn't mean I can't figure stuff out. I have plenty of people I trust, friends and acquaintances, who can help me and I know how to use a clalculator. Just can't do it in my head, and I can't always figure out the method to get the answers I need.

I know that maths makes things work, but I don't directly use it all the time - I didn't programme my computer, for example. I simply understand the usual ways of using these apparatus, I certainly couldn't fix the thing if it went wrong.

But I'm neither proud nor ashamed of my lack of ability in maths, it's simply a fact. And it's certainly not genetic, although being told I was a useless idiot all my childhood probably wan't helpful, but these things can be overcome.

As with all things, it's a form of stratification; some of us are better at this stuff than others. I couldn't care less that I'm not great at a subject I have no love for, and I've not been screwed over yet due to simply being careful and having lots of help (and knowing when to ask for help is important). But I took another subject I loved, worked at it, and am now one of the best in the country at what I do. That's where general intelligence can help; knowing how to make what you're good at, work for you. smile

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#445938 - 02/24/11 02:23 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
XUL Offline


Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 238
Loc: Oslo, Norway
I don't think Satanists are different with respects to any predictable pattern of measurable intelligence -- but I'll buy the argument that most people who drift to these shores have been alienated with respects to personal ability to "fit in" with a society that thrives on mediocrity. If there is a common denominator for "Satanic predictability" I'd wager it has to do with a sense of creativity and a desire to be alive, really alive, for as long as you've got in this world.
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#445939 - 02/24/11 02:26 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Furrtiv]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: Furrtiv
Hm, with regards to the being bad at maths - doesn't mean I can't figure stuff out. [...] As with all things, it's a form of stratification; some of us are better at this stuff than others.

The stratification doesn't only have two levels, though. There's still a huge difference between accepting the fact that you'll probably never excel at a particular subject, and being so clueless about that it becomes embarrassingly self-defeating. Not being in the first extreme does not justify being willingly of the second extreme. Again, it's even more ridiculous when some people practically pride themselves in being of the latter extreme, perhaps even thinking there's something inferior about being a "geek" of a particular subject.

I'm not expecting laymen to be able to do trigonometry in their heads. But I do expect an adult to be capable of at least figuring out something like "40 minus 10" without freaking out and resorting to a calculator.

Likewise, I'm certainly not an artist, astronomer, or historian, and I don't dare compete with experts in these fields. However, I can at least draw a recognizable triangle, know that the Earth is closer than Pluto is to the Sun, and write at least a few sentences worth of information on the American Civil War. It's not impressive by any means, but some people pathetically can't even do some of these things, and not surprisingly they can be easily manipulated into crooked business deals, conspiracy theories, etc. It doesn't take much imagination to think of examples. Let that happen to the herd, not us.



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Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

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#445951 - 02/24/11 04:37 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
LaVeyanAngel Offline


Registered: 02/19/11
Posts: 7
Loc: florida
I've actually gotten much better at math since I've had my current job. I do use a calculator at times, but its become easier to calculate simple math on my own. I guess it just takes practice and perseverance. I refuse to be defeated by numbers, dammit! :P

See, my thing is that I can figure out different ways in coming up with a solution, somewhat technical, but really easy for me to come up with. However, I just cant figure out the equation I've come up with to find the solution! Guess I gotta have more patience and spend more time trying to work on that.
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#445962 - 02/24/11 05:14 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Bill_M]
Spelled Moon Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/25/08
Posts: 1691
Loc: Germany
Funnier, some people do not understand that math is a descriptive tool and has a strong connection with everyday reality. They think it's just something written in their exercise books.
I do not address this to anyone here in particular.

One memory occured to me. I remember one boy, who kept trying to reinvent a wheel, once talked about amount of apples. Like this: 'What if two apples are three and not two?' He kept wondering about words, thought that he was undermining the math and failed to see that the mass of apples remains the same, equal amount of fruits like before.

Math is just a description of reality, useful to help get other descriptions that make things work. Nothing more and nothing less. When I used to join this kind of discussions in other forums in the past, I usually said - if there were no math, people would be living in the caves yet and would not have any of the comfort which they are enjoying happily now.

But in general, I have already given up on this kind of conversations a long time ago. smile

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#445990 - 02/24/11 08:38 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Spelled Moon]
Liberterius Offline


Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 241
Spelled Moon,
I understand very well how math is important, and that it describes real concepts in physics and nature.
But to actually study it, I find incredibly boring, and I'd rather leave it to someone else.
I'll fully admit my lack of knowledge in math, but I can see how other people would find it interesting and why human civilization does need it.
I'm just glad other people can spend all day figuring out equations and numbers and symbols.
I'll keep to words and speeches thank you very much. :P
I DO find math history kinda cool though; like why different theorires and concepts were discovered and codified by mathematicians through the ages.

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#445991 - 02/24/11 08:42 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Bill_M]
Liberterius Offline


Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 241
Originally Posted By: Bill_M
Originally Posted By: Furrtiv
Hm, with regards to the being bad at maths - doesn't mean I can't figure stuff out. [...] As with all things, it's a form of stratification; some of us are better at this stuff than others.

The stratification doesn't only have two levels, though. There's still a huge difference between accepting the fact that you'll probably never excel at a particular subject, and being so clueless about that it becomes embarrassingly self-defeating. Not being in the first extreme does not justify being willingly of the second extreme. Again, it's even more ridiculous when some people practically pride themselves in being of the latter extreme, perhaps even thinking there's something inferior about being a "geek" of a particular subject.

I'm not expecting laymen to be able to do trigonometry in their heads. But I do expect an adult to be capable of at least figuring out something like "40 minus 10" without freaking out and resorting to a calculator.

Likewise, I'm certainly not an artist, astronomer, or historian, and I don't dare compete with experts in these fields. However, I can at least draw a recognizable triangle, know that the Earth is closer than Pluto is to the Sun, and write at least a few sentences worth of information on the American Civil War. It's not impressive by any means, but some people pathetically can't even do some of these things, and not surprisingly they can be easily manipulated into crooked business deals, conspiracy theories, etc. It doesn't take much imagination to think of examples. Let that happen to the herd, not us.



I love this post. I hate it when people are PROUD of their ignorance in subjects, like it's bad to know things.
The culture of willful ignorance being cool is such a huge problem in this country, and most of the world. Especially black urban culture in the US, uggggggh. *vomits*
I admit when I'm not an expert in a subject, but I could still have a mild interest in it, and will often fact-check things I hear in news reports or in science magazines when I see something I'm not familiar with.
I could talk all day about the American Civil War or a lot of US and European history, but studying math or trying to draw or fix car engines would kill me. Doesn't mean I don't WANT to know anything about them; I can at least try.
But seriously fuck willful ignorance and the culture of stupidity.


Edited by Liberterius (02/24/11 08:43 PM)
Edit Reason: spell check

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#445997 - 02/24/11 10:40 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Bill_M]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8269
The stratification doesn't only have two levels, though.

It hardly ever does. The either or crowd forgets there are degrees of development. coopdevil
_________________________
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#446012 - 02/25/11 02:21 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10571
Loc: England
>>Especially black urban culture in the US, uggggggh. *vomits* <<

grin grin


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#446016 - 02/25/11 04:53 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
XUL Offline


Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 238
Loc: Oslo, Norway
Originally Posted By: Liberterius

The culture of willful ignorance


That sort of thing actually has an academic term of its own now: Agnotology, i.e. "the study of culturally-induced ignorance or doubt, particularly the publication of inaccurate or misleading scientific data" (Wikipedia).
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#446017 - 02/25/11 04:57 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: XUL]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10571
Loc: England
>> That sort of thing actually has an academic term of its own now: Agnotology, i.e. "the study of culturally-induced ignorance or doubt, particularly the publication of inaccurate or misleading scientific data" (Wikipedia).<<


If it is willful then it isn't ignorance.
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#446025 - 02/25/11 07:57 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
XUL Offline


Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 238
Loc: Oslo, Norway
Originally Posted By: Rev_Strongbone
If it is willful then it isn't ignorance.


Now you're getting advanced. Philosophical metaphors aside, I like to think of that which they call "faith" (especially in its religious context) as willful (and often quite organised) ignorance. The study of Agnotology may or may not lead anywhere -- but I'm quite happy that it's gotten an acedamic acknowledgement as a real, quantifiable phenomenon.


Edited by XUL (02/25/11 08:00 AM)
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#446038 - 02/25/11 11:35 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Liberterius Offline


Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 241
By "willful ignorance" I meant that someone says "Hm, I don't know much about this topic. I COULD at least read the wikipedia article on it to grasp the basic overview, but instead I'm gonna not look up or learn anything about it, and be proud of that fact. Learning is stupid!" Basically.

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#446046 - 02/25/11 02:51 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
This is very simplistic...and admittedly an artificial dichotomy, but I find there are two kinds of people...those who choose specific things to think about or study because it gives them a feeling of security; and, the curious. Curiosity has no specific goal other than scratching that itch. The curious come in differing degrees of intelligence. But at a certain level, they can, if they put their minds to it,learn pretty much anything. Interestingly, it is not uncommon to find that the curious may not be considered the most successful people in the world because they might not stick at one thing very long, unless something really grabs them.

Sadly, there are people who show little to no curiosity. They are dull, stupid and only learn what they absolutley have to. I have no idea what makes them tick. It's like seeing color and trying to imagine what the world lookos like to a color blind person.

I always thought I was not good at mathematics myself. Then, I realized I was just impatient and, in my youth, did not want to take the time to double check my answers. That's okay though...learning Calculus is on my bucket list.
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#446053 - 02/25/11 03:26 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Furrtiv Offline


Registered: 10/04/08
Posts: 112
Loc: Derbyshire, England
Ugh, I can certainly agree with the wilful ignorance issue - far too much of it about! It seems like a new phenomenon, that it's seen as good to be an idiot, and that clever talented people are somehow "uncool" - like I'd want to be one of a crowd of morons? No thanks!

Curiosity can be both a boon and a bane; learning new things is always interesting, but not being able to focus on any one thing long enough to be good at it (unless you have a burning passion for something), can certainly be an impediment to success and fulfilment.
That said, I'd rather be always curious, than always dull.

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#446133 - 02/26/11 11:00 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Furrtiv]
Hatred_Incarnate Offline


Registered: 03/26/09
Posts: 124
Originally Posted By: Furrtiv
It seems like a new phenomenon, that it's seen as good to be an idiot, and that clever talented people are somehow "uncool"


Look on the bright (dark?) side. It makes it that much easier for the Satanist to manipulate people.

The strong rule over the weak and the cunning rule over all.
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Thanks to denial, I'm immortal.
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Crocodilians take better care of their young then a lot of parents I know.
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#446167 - 02/27/11 07:24 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Furrtiv Offline


Registered: 10/04/08
Posts: 112
Loc: Derbyshire, England
Oh yes indeed; it's just that dealing with it constantly, day to day,hour to hour (at work, usually) can be tiresome after a while. But you're right, it's given me many opportunities to improve my own situation and my use of lesser magic. smile

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#446186 - 02/27/11 12:50 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Furrtiv]
Liberterius Offline


Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 241
Originally Posted By: Furrtiv
Ugh, I can certainly agree with the wilful ignorance issue - far too much of it about! It seems like a new phenomenon, that it's seen as good to be an idiot, and that clever talented people are somehow "uncool" - like I'd want to be one of a crowd of morons? No thanks!

Curiosity can be both a boon and a bane; learning new things is always interesting, but not being able to focus on any one thing long enough to be good at it (unless you have a burning passion for something), can certainly be an impediment to success and fulfilment.
That said, I'd rather be always curious, than always dull.


Now, I hear people all the time talking about "kids these days" and how they're too obsessed with texting and consumerism and lattes to be intelligent. That is definitely true of a lot of young people nowadays. But I reject the idea that people were so much smarter or even in some ways polite in the past.
Back in like 1910 American authors were complaining that kids were idiots that didn't know their history; lots of Americans in the present day would see 1910 teenagers as being some sort of perfect race of uber-polite magic people, who obeyed their parents and worked hard and were good citizens.
It's a bullshit idea; sanitation in the past sucked, Victorian manners were extremely oppressive to women, less kids were in school, and more worked in factories and learned even less than they do now.
That said, there are aspects of past Western society I extremely admire, and lots of people nowadays (both young and old) are idiots who don't even try.
But let's not look at the past through rose-colored glasses.
Self-inflicted ignorance is not a recent phenomenon.
(Not trying to attack you in anyway, just using your quote to transition to that aspect of the topic. ^_^)

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#446188 - 02/27/11 01:59 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10571
Loc: England
I have always said regarding elderly people who are forgiven their stupidity on the basis that they're old. Except in cases where there is proper medical degeneration of the faculties they are not stupid because they're old - they're stupid because they've always been stupid.

"How fortunate for governments that those it seeks to administer do not think" - Adolf Hitler.
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#446234 - 02/27/11 11:03 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Kronos Offline


Registered: 02/27/11
Posts: 8
Loc: WV
I've always been somewhat unusually smart,I was home schooled to be honest,and one of the greatest things my grandmother taught me was one never stops learning (although she tended to hem one in with her religious views)

I can remember at something like five listening to a kids tape and they were talking about going into space in a school bus (which I thought el primo stupid) and then they said then went outside and floated around-I said that was impossible as there's no air in space!

If there's one thing I taught myself is that we know exactly squat about some things and if that's the case it's best to shut up until you can prove it lest you make a fool of yourself.
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#446277 - 02/28/11 12:20 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: Rev_Strongbone
I have always said regarding elderly people who are forgiven their stupidity on the basis that they're old. Except in cases where there is proper medical degeneration of the faculties they are not stupid because they're old - they're stupid because they've always been stupid.


In many cases, I think as people become older, they become more themselves, due to some combination of brain degeneration, hearing loss, and no longer giving a shit.

Barring Alzheimer's and other diseases, the passionate, intelligent and engaged typically become even more so as they age, while the fundamentally boorish, stupid, and self-absorbed morph into the insufferable toddlers they've always been, as they slowly shed their manners, concerns, and inhibitions.

But, people like Jane Goodall, E.O. Wilson, James Randi, Ray Bradbury, George Burns, and Arthur Miller prove that you don't have to become cranky, dotty, and dull when you get old.
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"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#446284 - 02/28/11 02:36 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Furrtiv Offline


Registered: 10/04/08
Posts: 112
Loc: Derbyshire, England
Ah, Libertarius, you caught me out! Although I did insert the word "seems", I was neglecting to clarify that it seems to me, that there is a modern culture of stupidity. smile Maybe it has always been there, but with our modern viewpoint on society - and quite possibly a bit of revisionist history thrown into the mix as well - it's hard to see it as the same thing.
Certainly, I'm happy to have the conveniences of our era and wouldn't cope well without them.
I'm still waiting for this collapse of society that's supposed to be happening now that Christian values are being thrown out and people are accepting gays, unmarried couples having kids, etc, etc.
Hm, still waiting. Or maybe not, just getting on with things.

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#446580 - 03/04/11 12:31 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: TrojZyr]
Hedonist Offline


Registered: 01/21/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: TrojZyr
In many cases, I think as people become older, they become more themselves, due to some combination of brain degeneration, hearing loss, and no longer giving a shit.


That's golden witch TrojZyr, thank you for the laugh. Pure gold and 100% on the mark!
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#446729 - 03/05/11 03:52 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Alice_Angel Offline


Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 4
Loc: England
I wasn't exactly a child prodigy but I was no idiot. I tended to be better at the English based subjects while struggling a bit with maths. I find it difficult to hold my attention when a subject doesn't interest me. When I was in school I read all the time sometimes neglecting other aspects in my life because of it. I wonder if anyone here can relate to this as well but I would become so entirely involved and captivated by something that I would hardly eat. I certainly didn't eat for pleasure.I learned/read for pleasure. My mother had an awful time with it because while she would try to feed me I was just too preoccupied with other things. The way I saw it I was wasting time sitting down at the dinner table when I could be in my room reading a book or whatever else was occupying me at that point in time.

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#449612 - 04/15/11 09:41 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Paistemage Offline


Registered: 04/12/11
Posts: 24
Loc: Midwest, USA
I always wondered why other 6 year olds weren't memorizing all the dinosaur names like I was, and why couldn't they spell them.

I wasn't a child prodigy or anything, I just felt most of the kids were concerned with things I found banal. I felt i couldn't talk them about the Poe I was reading or the cool show I saw on Nova.

I asked my grandma once why I have to pretend to be dumb when talking to people, she said not to.

I haven't since.
_________________________
"Knowing your own darkness is the best method for dealing with the darkness of other people."
-Carl Jung

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#449614 - 04/15/11 09:44 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Machismo]
Paistemage Offline


Registered: 04/12/11
Posts: 24
Loc: Midwest, USA
Hatred Incarnate...

Did you mean "Elie Wiesel?" The book was entitled "Night," I read that and "Maus" when I was twelve.
_________________________
"Knowing your own darkness is the best method for dealing with the darkness of other people."
-Carl Jung

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#449717 - 04/17/11 10:22 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Nufan Offline


Registered: 04/16/11
Posts: 51
Is this a question more of asking about quantifiable intelligence, such as test scores and grades in school? Yes I was good at school without trying, but socially inept in comparison to my peers. I still feel this is one thing I need to work on. I have always been able to use my ability to learn to adapt to situations and have had more understanding of people around me their reasons for doing what they do, and been able to get out of sticky situations, as well as getting people to react certain ways, and be able to bend people's wills at times sometimes on an unconscious level. But as I get closely involved my once seemingly unerring view of people is sometimes blurred and becomes impossible for me to understand or relate.

I am not sure which measure of intelligence you are asking about. Or how you would define intelligence itself. It is to me like saying I am a mathematician I understand the entirety of how to figure out an equation. Measuring intelligence in this way, yes I was 'intelligent'. I would rather be able to apply my intelligence, to solve problems for instance being an engineer and being able to create a power plant, or energy efficient light-bulb something in this way. Although this is a broad generalization, and maybe not applicable in every respect. In this way, at least socially I was retarded, as in slowed. In part because I was so focused on being better than everyone else in school, even though it was easy and looking down on everyone else's seemingly lower intelligence, instead of observing and applying the strengths in which I did not have.

I was not challenged, even in advanced classes which caused me to stagnate and ignore the possibility that I did have areas in which I could improve on. At least I can realize this although regrettably I did not realize it until later than I should have, I kept much of these personality traits and still find it easy to look down on people for not being able to grasp what are to me simple concepts.

Even when writing, I sometimes have trouble to explain a simple thought without having to detail, and be wordy for me to get a point across. Such as this.

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#451744 - 05/11/11 12:09 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Kernel Offline


Registered: 04/20/11
Posts: 72
Loc: Nothern Europe
When I was a child I was.. different. I had a whole different set of interests than other kids. I didn't want to play much, and if I did I mostly did coloring. I was obsessive with hygiene and cleaning at the age of 5 - my room was like army camp. I knew how to read and write and do basic calculus before going to any kind of school or daycare. I was interested in only few things - my coloring, the universe and bugs. I pestered my mother all the time about this or that star and asked her questions retaining to the universe and space and matter and so on. When I got to school, I was advanced from first grade to the third. Everything was just too easy. I changed schools to take up music, and was a very curious nature, I wanted to know the hows and whys of everything.

Sadly that time's long passed. I'm not that smart anymore I think. Reality and the harshness of the world made it for me. Loosing innocence and curiosity because of cruel kids and understanding of the world made it. Now I'm more bitter, sarcastic and so on. But on the other hand, school has became interesting, sadly I'm not the patient type.
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#451928 - 05/14/11 07:26 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Sammi Offline


Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 16
I have video evidence that I demonstrated logic from an early age. In the video, I was attempting to climb a rock but struggled because of its steepness - so I just walked around the other side of the rock (where it was less steep) and climbed up from there!

I also learned to speak from an early age (my poor parents!) and I learned to read before I attended nursery school. At the age of 9, I was told that I had the spelling age of a 12-year-old. I can't recall any other achievements at the moment.

I am still a quick learner nowadays, so it's great that I've had some consistency.

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#452047 - 05/16/11 02:50 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Valtiel Offline


Registered: 03/19/11
Posts: 89
Loc: Hollywood
As a very young child I had a huge obsession with music. It's the only thing that would silence me from crying and put me to sleep as a very small infant. (Funny thing, one of my earliest memories is my parents wheeling the little Television into my room and playing a video of Dire Straits 'Money for nothing' to put me to sleep.)

I also had an incredibly vivid imaginary friend for most of my younger years, a naked woman with blue skin and white hair. Yep. I started young with my fascination with the female form apparently.

I was writing stories before I could actually write. I'd produce page after page of nonsense chicken scratch, then proceed to 'read' it to my family. So no surprise I turned out a writer.



Edited by Valtiel (05/16/11 03:07 AM)
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#452068 - 05/16/11 11:16 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
With all this...acknowledgment of intelligence, it strikes me that I am often smitten with absolute awe and wonder at just how stupid I can be. Then, lest I fall in a pile of self-dejection, I remember that being stupid is much like being crazy...those who recognize when they are generally aren't.
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#452074 - 05/16/11 01:01 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Scuz Offline


Registered: 05/06/11
Posts: 17
Loc: Michigan
I was more interested in technology. When I was 6 and I got a gameboy color and pokemon red, then over time I used to live almost across the street from a movie gallery where I could buy cheap titles. I spent most of my afternoons playing Age of Empires, then just beginning my interest in computer technology. When I was starting middle school I didn't do very well, I barely passed and then failed my 8th mark so I had to take it again. I wasn't at all popular, I would hang out with people who would always down me. I think it was around 8th grade that I shaped up (at least a little) and started being interested in science and mostly history.

My freshman year I failed at least one class per trimester and had a LOT of complicated computer classes mostly because it involved Microsoft word and a lot of business bollocks. I had difficult teachers up until sophomore year that wouldn't help me, or I wouldn't care. I got most of my papers I wrote out in English classes back because my vocabulary was very high which really irked me. I still am not a very social person and have a small amount of friends here and there I haven't shut out and I constantly learn more and more about computer tech (more so now a days). My sophomore year I also left my highschool because I hated most of the people in it and the teachers for the most part angered me, and decided to go to an alternative highschool, which has actually been helping for the most part. I still go there to this day and things have been looking bleak on my future though that's my story.

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#452076 - 05/16/11 01:17 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Paistemage]
Scuz Offline


Registered: 05/06/11
Posts: 17
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Paistemage
Hatred Incarnate...

Did you mean "Elie Wiesel?" The book was entitled "Night," I read that and "Maus" when I was twelve.


We finished reading Night in my survival stories class a few weeks ago. it's mostly a class about the holocaust and my teacher is Jewish and was surprised at how much I knew on the topic (considering all the hours of research I've done in my spare time).

We have a holocaust survivor coming to my school tomorrow to tell us his story, It's quite interesting for me.


Edited by Scuz (05/16/11 01:18 PM)

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#452087 - 05/16/11 05:54 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Scuz]
Bruja Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 2054
Loc: Atlanta, GA.
Originally Posted By: Scuz


We finished reading Night in my survival stories class a few weeks ago. it's mostly a class about the holocaust and my teacher is Jewish and was surprised at how much I knew on the topic (considering all the hours of research I've done in my spare time).

We have a holocaust survivor coming to my school tomorrow to tell us his story, It's quite interesting for me.


Wow, that sounds really interesting. You must go to a fun school. What grade are you in? How old are you?
_________________________
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Bruja

"Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't." - Margaret Thatcher

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#452122 - 05/17/11 12:48 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Scuz Offline


Registered: 05/06/11
Posts: 17
Loc: Michigan
18 as of february, I am a junior. Hopefully I will be graduating soon.

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#452131 - 05/17/11 05:24 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Valtiel Offline


Registered: 03/19/11
Posts: 89
Loc: Hollywood
We used to do a similar thing in my school, meeting elderly folk who were evacuated from London during the second world war.
It you aren't familiar with the event, all the kids 12 and under were taken on trains to the furthest rural areas of Wales, Cornwall and north England to escape the bombings of the larger cities. They stayed with local families and went to local schools and such, before returning home after the war was over.
That was how many families came to settle in the rural region I grew up in, they came back even after the war having liked it so much.
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#452269 - 05/20/11 08:02 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
Herr_S Offline


Registered: 12/25/08
Posts: 76
Loc: Mordor
I took an IQ test for Mensa a few weeks ago, haven't gotten the results back but it wasn't really challenging. I mean, looking at a set of figures and then drawing a logical conclusion of what the following figure should be, who can't do that?

Anyways, I wouldn't say I was the most intelligent child, though I'd probably fit into the top 5% in my class. I was more of a 'street smart' kid I would say. I knew nobody liked a smart-ass, so I made sure never to show off any skills. Memory has always been my strong side, I could memorize and organize things easier than other kids, at least so it seemed to me. I scored highest in my class in geography and biology, subjects where you need to remember a lot of things. I've always had a strong interest for biology, and even now i can spend hours reading scientific articles on cancer, viruses, how the human brain works, etc etc. Too bad I didn't do well in other subjects in school, or I could have been a great doctor. =/
_________________________
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#452343 - 05/21/11 12:42 AM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
CWH Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/23/05
Posts: 3746
I was in all gifted and honors classes through out school.

During my Marine Corps days I was always top 5 of my technical and leadership training courses.

I now work in Corrections and graduated both the state of Florida and Federal corrections academies as honor grad with awards for firearms proficiency.

I've never gone to college. I started a program once right before we invaded Iraq in '03. Never started it again. Maybe I should.

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#452472 - 05/22/11 03:52 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Liberterius]
john hunter Offline


Registered: 05/16/11
Posts: 28
Intelligence Quotient...
I have heard that such tests must be tailored to a demographic in order that the overall average of the various local populations not drop to low. I have never taken such a test.

I have also heard that a man will recognize a wise man as one thinks the same way they do.

but at the end of the day I suppose your altitude on the ladder is the bottom line. A subject of many curses from many tongues,
including the tongue of our namesake, apparently, before being hurled down to us like lightning from the sky.

"Question all things," that is the element in the equation of my mind that has landed me here, clicking away at a keyboard for you.

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#452473 - 05/22/11 03:56 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: john hunter]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10571
Loc: England
>> I have also heard that a man will recognize a wise man as one thinks the same way they do. <<


Or women. grin


I saw on a rather attractive young lady's blog some man had posted: "I'd love to fuck your brains out"

To which the girl replied... "But it seems you haven't got any."
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#452482 - 05/22/11 06:34 PM Re: Realization of Intelligence as a child? [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
john hunter Offline


Registered: 05/16/11
Posts: 28
Originally Posted By: Rev_Strongbone
>>

I saw on a rather attractive young lady's blog some man had posted: "I'd love to fuck your brains out"

To which the girl replied... "But it seems you haven't got any."



ha ha ha lol rofl... wait a minute... ! mad

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