Page 1 of 10 1 2 3 ... 9 10 >
Topic Options
#446884 - 03/07/11 09:35 PM Multiculturalism
Liberterius Offline


Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 241
I have complicated but concrete views on the topic of multiculturalism.

I believe that people with some degree of different values can co-exist in the same geographic and political (countries or cities) area and not have to be segregated and kill each other.
That is, if they leave each other alone.
Despite some religion creeping into politics and some (what I consider) needless moralizing, Western countries, including the US (where I reside) do present multiculturalism and diversity quite well.

However, it is important to note, that immigrants to Western countries also co-exist so well because they have to a large extent assimilated. They may have to accept more lax social norms(women showing more skin, more obscenity, lack of public religion) than in their old country, as well as of course the language and manners.

This is where multiculturalism I find has limits; while immigrants can bring to their new countries different foods, music, clothing styles, and historical experiences, they MUST accept the PUBLIC ethical-political norms of that new country and culture. In Europe, women do NOT have to wear burkas and have a male guardian as they do in Saudi Arabia, and Muslim immigrants MUST accept this or leave.

It enrages and puzzles me when on the news I see these Muslim immigrants from places such as Sudan, who move to a liberal country such as Sweden, and then complain that their new home is full of infidels, and proceed to attack police and firefighters entering their little self-imposed ghettos, as they at the same time accept generous welfare checks, utilities, and economic opportunity. And then in Europe, and to a lesser extent the US, if you complain about such un-integrating, ungrateful scumbags, you're called racist and intolerant!

So there is a limit of multiculturalism; ultimately only ONE set of cultural norms can exist to be the standard of a country or region...some of those "sets" of norms may be more lax than others; in Western countries many lifestyles, religions, and styles of dress are accepted by most people, or at least not killed like they would be in Muslim countries. (Whereas Muslim or Asian norms may be more strict, have greater emphasis on family, different odd little ettiquite rules.) But ultimately, multiculturalism has limits to me.

My neighbor can be Muslim, but fuck them if they go calling ME and the native political leaders of this country that they CHOSE to move to infidels. In this country you have freedom of speech and can make cartoons mocking the prophet if you want. (And yes, it gives them freedom to criticize us for it too and express their religion, but they can't make threats, and they may still be being douches.)

So basically multiculturalism is fine by me when it's minor things, or PRIVATE ethical decisions, but I think Western citizens need to show a little more backbone and pride in their society, and demand that aggressively independent immigrants and minorities either integrate or go back where they came from.

(And again, I'm not racist, or against other people's lifestyles; people can listen to rap, be whatever religion they want, or have some pride in their old country. Just they should recognize that they move here, they play by OUR rules. It pisses me off seeing people fly the flags of Puerto Rico or Mexico, but never an American flag even alongside with them.)

What are your opinions?


Edited by Liberterius (03/07/11 10:00 PM)

Top
#446888 - 03/07/11 10:45 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
MoongleMoose Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 76
Loc: South O' Sydney
Multi-Culturism DOES work.
It's the close minded morons (on BOTH sides) that claim "It Doesn't".
Australia and New Zealand are proof of this, and have been for over sixty years.


Edited by MoongleMoose (03/07/11 10:46 PM)

Top
#446891 - 03/07/11 11:19 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
Darkcentre1 Offline


Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 38
Yes, I tend to agree with you Liberterius.

There are many positive qualities which multi - culturalism offers a nation.

However, I believe that Laws apply to all and that people should show some respect for the cultural/societal norms or heritage of their nation of residence, even if they were born somewhere else and do hold differing views.

I think that as each generation is born and grows it tends to leave behind the old prejudices. By that I mean that the children and grandchildren etc. of immigrants are going to tend to naturally assimilate with the pre-dominant forms of culture, as they are not as emotionally invested in the older forms of prejudices held by their parents or grand -parents etc.

Top
#446939 - 03/08/11 10:04 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: MoongleMoose]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11532
Loc: New England, USA
Quote:
Multi-Culturism [sic] DOES work.
It's the close minded morons (on BOTH sides) that claim "It Doesn't".

One of the problems with the term "multiculturalism" is that it's not very well defined. Quite often it's used as a euphemism for tolerating customs and ideologies that don't want to tolerate others in the first place.

Originally Posted By: MoongleMoose
Australia and New Zealand are proof of this, and have been for over sixty years.

I have yet to meet an Australian who had anything positive to say about New Zealanders, or vice-versa. Each group seems convinced that the other is made up of idiots and sheep-fuckers.

_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

(Wenn du Google's ‹bersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)

Top
#446941 - 03/08/11 10:26 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Quote:
This is where multiculturalism I find has limits; while immigrants can bring to their new countries different foods, music, clothing styles, and historical experiences, they MUST accept the PUBLIC ethical-political norms of that new country and culture.


Quite right. For society to function, everyone has to agree to abide by some basic ground rules.

Well, and while I think societies generally benefit from exposure to new ideas, new inventions, new words, new foods, and new artistic styles, and I think individuals ultimately benefit from having to learn how to interact with people different from themselves, I also think most folks underestimate just how difficult multiculturalism is to pull off even halfway-successfully.

Entirely too many people I know believe that it's just a matter of everyone recognizing each other's inherent value and beauty as human beings, and then it's all kumbaya from there. Yeah, no.
It's typically a long, hard road, often paved with catfights and bloodshed.

But, if you look at how far Western Civilization has come in recognizing people who were previously just seen as animals or otherworldly freaks, you see that people can learn to stretch the boundaries of their "tribe."

_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

Top
#446944 - 03/08/11 10:40 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Bill_M]
Mr_47 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3082
Loc: Pure Imagination
Originally Posted By: Bill_M

I have yet to meet an Australian who had anything positive to say about New Zealanders, or vice-versa. Each group seems convinced that the other is made up of idiots and sheep-fuckers.



My mother married an Australian and moved there. I can concur with this statement. He always refers to New Zealanders as sheep-fuckers.

Top
#446945 - 03/08/11 10:43 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: TrojZyr]
Mr_47 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3082
Loc: Pure Imagination
Originally Posted By: TrojZyr


But, if you look at how far Western Civilization has come in recognizing people who were previously just seen as animals or otherworldly freaks, you see that people can learn to stretch the boundaries of their "tribe."



I agree. When compared to how America was in the 1800's prior to the Emancipation Proclamation or even after the Japanese-American internment camps of the WWII era, even after the Civil Rights movement, we've come a long way as a country in accepting multiculturalism.

But as you said, it's a long road and it's far from over.

Top
#446947 - 03/08/11 10:49 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: MoongleMoose]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10118
The history of western contact with Australia (and Oceania in general) begins with white settlers displacing and killing off the indigeneous population and establishing a pretty standard issue western society in their place.

Today, aborigines enjoy a pleasant life of scratching out an existence in the desert, subsidized by a government that feels bad about the past, and occasionally binging on alcohol and candy.

Yep, sounds like a classic case of multiculturalism.

Not, mind you, that there's anything wrong with that. That's what conquering societies do: get rid of the backwards natives and build something else more to their liking. Though today, it seems we have this funny idea that we should keep the remnants of the long-ago overrun people alive in some kind of suspended animation like a zoo exhibit so we can say we are multicultural and don't approve of all that conquest and land stealing. Of course, we keep the land. That much is ours.

Multiculturalism is a charade. Any serious attempts at it have or are currently leading to internal strife and population pressure. More half assed attempts have fewer overall negative effects on the society at large but are more transparently farcical.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

Top
#446950 - 03/08/11 11:00 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10118
immigrants can bring to their new countries different foods, music, clothing styles, and historical experiences

I'm not going to disagree with the sentiment at large, but it is not telling that the limits on what is acceptable cultural baggage are a bunch of shit that people really have little reason to care about except as an identity badge?

Food. I always hear about fucking food brought up whenever foreign culture is discussed. Why the hell does everyone think culture = food? Cause them crazy for'ners eat weird shit? They do, but the point is, if for some reason I made up my mind, for whatever reason, that I needed to live in Japan, I doubt eating hamburgers every day would be high on my list of concerns in my new country.

Music. Again, this is what people really care about? Why go elsewhere when you're just trying to drag your old shit along with you? Nevermind that it appears that a great many immigrants are more interested in YOU hearing their music than listening to it themselves.

Clothing styles. Again, why? There's this old saying, "When in Rome...". Thankfully few people really bother with this, running around in a Mao uniform is a little conspicuous and wearing a rug on your chest is equally disruptive in most places.

I am, at least, on board with keeping your national history alive. That much is indeed significant and not just a token trash reminder to those around you that you're different. Unfortunately, illiterate masses usually don't know about or care about history, their's or anyone else's.

In summary, most of the things named are things that, from my experience, the majority of immigrants with any real desire to assimilate don't bother hanging on to. They come here, they wear western clothes, eat regular old food like everyone else, and probably don't give a rat's ass about music. Notably, the ones flaunting all of the above are the ones most conspiculously NOT assimilating. That guy hanging out the window of his car wearing a decidedly colorful blanket, shouting in Spanish, barely audible over the tejano music blasting from his ride? He isn't assimilated. Though it is possible that he makes a fine burrito.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

Top
#446951 - 03/08/11 11:18 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1812
Loc: Denmark
My idea about multiculturalism is that a country should have open borders, but closed welfare services towards immigrants. This will attract those who are willing to make something for themselves in their new country.

Personally I think that for instance my own country is trying to find bureaucratic ways to get rid of the freeloaders, but in the process they end up alienating the productive immigrants ... and in some ways myself too.

I see myself more as being part of an Anglo-Saxon culture, as opposed to a Danish one. So the more nationalistic I see my own country become, the less I feel in tune with it.
_________________________
While having never invented a sin, I'm trying to perfect several.

Top
#446964 - 03/08/11 03:25 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
As a subject of study, the diversity of human cultures has been a source of lifelong enjoyment. I like learning about different people. While in formal education, I did more than simply earn mediocre grades by burying my nose in books. I slipped into less than honorable academic mention because I spent most of my time around people who were, technically speaking, way different than the folk I grew up around. Growing up, I knew only a few Catholics, no jews and more drunken Baptists than I could shake a stick at.

What did I learn from all this besides some interesting recipes, a passing knowledge of global world views and it IS a fact...Chinese people can't drive? That in the real world, any romantic idealism about multi-culturalism, rainbow coalitions and appreciation of other peoples is a great big pile of super duper solipsism. Most people truly distrust anyone that doesn't look, think and talk like them. Politically, it is a constant hinderance to actually getting anywhere. In neighborhoods, it creates polite neighbors who put hate literature in your mail box when you aren't looking. In the end, people either assimilate or they end up killing each other.

That doesn't mean there won't be some weirdos who seem able to see beyond...even enjoy the differences in other people. It just won't catch on.
_________________________
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces

http://theepicureandilettante.blogspot.com/

"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

Top
#446965 - 03/08/11 03:36 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
anna Offline


Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 219
Loc: Poland
Quote:
This is where multiculturalism I find has limits; while immigrants can bring to their new countries different foods, music, clothing styles, and historical experiences, they MUST accept the PUBLIC ethical-political norms of that new country and culture. In Europe, women do NOT have to wear burkas and have a male guardian as they do in Saudi Arabia, and Muslim immigrants MUST accept this or leave.


So if immigrants can bring to their new countries different clothing styles why forbid Muslim women to wear burkas? I understand that it can be an issue at work, as there are many jobs that require the employees to wear a uniform, an apron or other work clothes. But I don't think that wearing a burka in the street, at school, at the cinema or other public places can hurt anybody. If some Muslim women want to wear their traditional clothes they should be allowed to wear them.

The problem appears if women are forced to wear burkas by their husbands or are abused by them in some other ways. But this is a part of domestic abuse and violence.

So the most important thing is if the immigrants are law abiding and do not disturb peace.
_________________________
Just gonna stand there and watch me burn. Well that's alright because I like the way it hurts.

Top
#446968 - 03/08/11 05:15 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: anna]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8257
So if immigrants can bring to their new countries different clothing styles why forbid Muslim women to wear burkas?

Security. Plain and simple. When you have a religion that harbors members that are Hell bent on destroying the Western world it makes no sense to have members of said religion walking around in Halloween costumes, covering their faces. It is a potential threat, and the country these people have come to has the right and obligation to provide security for its citizens.

If they don't like it, too bad. They are welcome to go back to their countries of origin that, by the way, insist foreigners obey their standards of dress.

http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/articles/2009-Summer/full-Bachrach.html
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

Top
#446972 - 03/08/11 06:14 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
Why the hell does everyone think culture = food?


Because it is! And it's not just a matter of nationality=food, because every different regions of the same country have their unique local foods. How you eat, what you eat, what you don't eat, and who you do or don't eat can have far-reaching implications, where cultural practices and assumptions are concerned.

Food also has the power to transport a person back to other places and times, and to provide a sense of comfort, familiarity, joy, and warmth. This effect is typically multiplied when people get to eat with the people they enjoy or care about.

Well, I'm honestly more interested in me getting to eat Malaysian or Afghani food, than I am in whether Malaysians or Afghans are eating their own food, just as long as they continue feed me the good stuff. I'm largely interested in what me and mine can get out of living in a diverse, multicultural society, because Chinese Food made by white people just doesn't cut it.

Well, and we've named the tangibles because they're easy to point to. Culture also comprises a lot of abstract intangibles, as well, such as history, traditions, language, values, and basic assumptions about the world.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

Top
#446982 - 03/08/11 09:29 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Mr_47]
MoongleMoose Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 76
Loc: South O' Sydney
Originally Posted By: Mr_47
Originally Posted By: Bill_M

I have yet to meet an Australian who had anything positive to say about New Zealanders, or vice-versa. Each group seems convinced that the other is made up of idiots and sheep-fuckers.


My mother married an Australian and moved there. I can concur with this statement. He always refers to New Zealanders as sheep-fuckers.



This is incorrect. I would attempt to try and explain the Australian humor between Aus and NZ, but it would take me an entire essay. Instead, I shall reference ANZAC and the recent earth quake in Christchurch for a strong argument.

Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
Today, aborigines enjoy a pleasant life of scratching out an existence in the desert, subsidized by a government that feels bad about the past, and occasionally binging on alcohol and candy.


Not only is this a racist statement towards Australians, it's also heavily generalised and untrue.



I think the statement; "Multiculturalism works, to an extent" is a more so correct and politely correct statement. In order for MC to work, all cultures have to be able to commit to compromise. This is especially the case with the party trying to gain entry to a country. I shall again use Australia as an example for this. Sixty years ago we saw a large migration from eurpoeans. Not only did they bring their culture over (which WAS very different to what British Australia was used to), they also performed levels of compromise in order to make their life a lot easier and happier. Over the last twenty years, Australia has seen a large surge of Asians coming over as well. This was met with extreme hostility (see Pauline Hanson and the wankers that followed her). The hype eventually died down and we began to see a multicultural society flourish.

The key point that dominates MC arguments in Australia now is Muslims. Here are the problems with the issue. For one, there are a MINORITY of people from the middle-east that want nothing to do with Australia, yet live here and demand that everyone else compromise for them. This, as said, is a minority, and these people are laughed at and socially exorcised by not only every day Australians, but Middle-East-Australians, the media and even the government.

Top
Page 1 of 10 1 2 3 ... 9 10 >


Forum Stats
12015 Members
73 Forums
43825 Topics
405206 Posts

Max Online: 197 @ 10/04/11 06:49 AM
Advertisements