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#446983 - 03/08/11 09:44 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: MoongleMoose]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10140
Not only is this a racist statement towards Australians, it's also heavily generalised and untrue.

So you're saying that as a whole, aborigines are living on economic and social parity with Australians of western descent? Somehow I have a feeling the numbers don't support such an assertion.

Also, I'm not particularly bothered by being called a racist. Facts are facts, regardless of how much they are at odds with what we like to believe about ourselves.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#446984 - 03/08/11 10:02 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: MoongleMoose]
Mr_47 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3082
Loc: Pure Imagination
Quote:
This is incorrect. I would attempt to try and explain the Australian humor between Aus and NZ, but it would take me an entire essay. Instead, I shall reference ANZAC and the recent earth quake in Christchurch for a strong argument.


You're telling me that my stepfather referring to NZ's as sheep-fuckers is incorrect?

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#446987 - 03/08/11 10:49 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Mr_47]
MoongleMoose Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 76
Loc: South O' Sydney
Originally Posted By: Mr_47
Quote:
This is incorrect. I would attempt to try and explain the Australian humor between Aus and NZ, but it would take me an entire essay. Instead, I shall reference ANZAC and the recent earth quake in Christchurch for a strong argument.


You're telling me that my stepfather referring to NZ's as sheep-fuckers is incorrect?



Where did you deduct that from? Your stepfather can say whatever he so pleases, however you're trying to assume that just because he says they're sheep fuckers, that there is this rift between Aussies and New Zealanders. Which is not the case.


Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
So you're saying that as a whole, aborigines are living on economic and social parity with Australians of western descent? Somehow I have a feeling the numbers don't support such an assertion.


No I never said that, I just wanted to refute a gross generalisation that assumes that Australian Aboriginals are alcoholics, poor and fit into a lower socio-economic category. There are problems that Aboriginals face, however these are not "Aboriginal Problems". It is impossible to try and compare Aboriginals to Westerners, and attempting to integrate them into a westernised culture has proven to be overall ineffective, which is why Australia is a multi-cultural society. In saying that, aboriginals are far too often stood against a common western man in comparison. This doesn't work for a number of reasons, chiefly that what our outward observations of aboriginal behavior understands is limited purely by media and second hand information.

I have lived, worked with and met countless Aboriginals, and have gained first hand the understanding of their cultural differences with western ideologies. There IS a big difference, and assuming that they aren't "living on economic and social parity with Australians of western descent" is an oxymoron. It's a completely different kettle of fish.



Quote:
Also, I'm not particularly bothered by being called a racist.


I never said you were a racist, but your statement is considered racist by Australian standards.


Edited by MoongleMoose (03/08/11 10:53 PM)

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#446993 - 03/09/11 03:10 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
J. Hagalaz Offline


Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 1212
Loc: USA
It's rather unfortunate, but I can't see any evidence of multiculturalism having a happy ending. It seems to add an unnecessary level of conflict and strife to any country dealing with it. It's difficult to talk about multiculturalism without mentioning the relevance of race as well, because there are so many differences between the races and these differences can sometimes lead to many problems in terms of assimilation.

Sociologists will often point out that these differences are purely cultural, and that they are malleable constructs and therefore people can "learn to get along". I'm not sure that this is necessarily true. I think there are some very real biological and cognitive differences between the races that are translated into their cultural behaviors and attitudes. And basically what we end up with is one breed of human vying for power and domination over the other, either overtly or subtly. So by DESIGN we can't all "just get along." Unfortunate, but apparently true.
_________________________
They are doomed because they cannot even glimpse beyond the construct that their masters have put into place. Their masters are doomed because they believe in the construct they created.

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#447007 - 03/09/11 10:02 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Quote:
I'm not sure that this is necessarily true. I think there are some very real biological and cognitive differences between the races that are translated into their cultural behaviors and attitudes.


Yes, but there are also fundamental, universal drives that are shared by all human beings, as well as even more fundamental and essential drives and instincts which are shared by all mammals.

More importantly, the way people draw the boundaries of the "in- group" and "out-group" is often quite arbitrary or logically-inconsistent, especially where biology and genetics are concerned. Just look at Pakistan and India. Just look at how most Americans felt about the Irish, the Chinese, and the Italians in the 19th century, versus how the majority think now (particularly about the Irish and the Italians). Or, consider how blacks in America see themselves and each other as just plain African-Americans, but actually risk getting the shit kicked out of them when they travel to Africa, because some of the locals there might see them as someone who looks Kimbundu, Ashanti, or Fur. Likewise, while we see the Chinese as just "the Chinese," most folks don't realize that China's actually home to 56 recognized (plus several more unrecognized) ethnic groups.

Oprah even got people to tear into each other over eye colour!:

http://www.oprah.com/oprahshow/Race-on-The-Oprah-Show-A-25-Year-Look-Back/4

Furthermore, that Obama is physically, genetically, and perhaps even (arguably) cognitively different from a sizable percentage of Americans didn't stop a plurality of them from voting him into office!

Well, and on that note, scarcely a hundred years ago, many respected thinkers were of the opinion that women were strange, flighty creatures meant for different things than the rest of "us," and that letting them into the political or public sphere was just going to result in a major meltdown therefore. Granted, I think you need to be realistically prepared for certain kinds of problems or challenges when you mix men and women--or whites and blacks, or Chinese and Japanese, or Jews and Christians, or theists and atheists--but the point is that many systems and many individuals have figured out more-or-less how to make it work, after many insisted that it simply wasn't possible, no way, no how.

While all of the participants here were white and male, I still think this study has some important insights, where making and breaking human in-groups is concerned:

http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/psychology/social/sherif_robbers_cave_experiment.html

Of course, you still need to have an outside enemy on hand, but we'll always have plenty of those, Satan willing (especially if they don't necessarily have to be "real")...
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#447015 - 03/09/11 01:06 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: MoongleMoose]
Mr_47 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3082
Loc: Pure Imagination
When you quoted my reply to Bill, which included my anecdote about sheep fuckers, your first statement was "That is incorrect." Hence why I asked.

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#447056 - 03/09/11 10:25 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Bedlam Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 1658
Loc: Perfidious Albion
Quote:
Food. I always hear about fucking food brought up whenever foreign culture is discussed. Why the hell does everyone think culture = food? Cause them crazy for'ners eat weird shit?


laugh

I just burped, laughed and farted at the same time.
_________________________
Wine for my men, we ride at dawn...

Do I look like I carry a pencil? Jason Statham

It may be Crazy
But I'm the closest thing I have
To a voice of reason


~ Gil Scott Heron




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#447085 - 03/10/11 11:57 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: MoongleMoose]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
>>Not only is this a racist statement towards Australians, it's also heavily generalised and untrue.

sick . . . vomit

How was that comment racist?

It would be better to understand your conclusion by why you feel it was racist than by just calling it racist.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

ďThe first principle is that you must not fool yourselfóand you are the easiest person to fool.Ē ~Richard Feynman

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#447095 - 03/10/11 03:30 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Discipline]
Darkcentre1 Offline


Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 38
I am an Australian (have lived in Sydney for 42 years) and do not regard the Reverend's comments to be personally offensive, or completely wrong, or racist.

Sheesh, it's getting so you can't say anything anymore because somebody is going to misunderstand it and get all offended and butthurt.

There is still a lot of guilt hanging around this country when it comes to its indigenous people and a lot of these people are still living pretty poorly. People should be able to talk about it honestly.

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#447099 - 03/10/11 05:12 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Darkcentre1]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10140
It wasn't intended as a jab at Australia - I didn't pull the comments about binging on alcohol and candy while scratching a living in the desert out of my ass. It's a well documented "social problem" among aborigines, comparable to American Indians (in their case it's rampant alcoholism and poverty).

Alternately, see Canada. Considerable lip service to "native rights." Reality is that no small part of them are actually laying in a gutter guzzling cologne and mouthwash.

I call a spade a spade. Primitive cultures are quaint when read about in a history book, realistically their standard of living wasn't too hot and the cultural baggage they carry drags them down. There's little need to resort to genetic arguments; when your ancestors spent the last few millenia barely surviving off insects and raw fish and living in huts of grass and mud (or ice) or hides, the transition to a world-dominating western culture is slow indeed.

It's fine to mention that some have integrated successfully. There are Indians and aborigines and eskimos that live normal lives practically indistinguishable from the rest of the nation. But that is not multiculturalism, that is integration.

The degree to which anything resembling multiculturalism works depends entirely on the compatability of the cultures in question. By all accounts, French, Germans, and Italians get along famously in Switzerland. But they've also forged a relatively unified Swiss culture in the process, and their parent cultures are not particularly different, all being western European Christian cultures. Contrary to this, white colonists and black natives have not exactly gotten along so well in S. Africa, and in such cases the difference is not merely visible, it's blatantly obvious.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#447101 - 03/10/11 05:55 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Darkcentre1 Offline


Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 38
Yes, your straight talking is appreciated by me (and I would speculate, by many other Australian's as well)Reverend.

I do think there is a problem and the only way it can be honestly assessed and addressed is with straight talking.

I tend to think that if people will just take some resposibility for themselves, and stand up and get on with it, then half the problem could be solved right then and there. Maybe I am being a bit of a dreamer, not sure.

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#447113 - 03/10/11 09:53 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Lilibeta Offline


Registered: 12/06/08
Posts: 157
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
Alternately, see Canada. Considerable lip service to "native rights." Reality is that no small part of them are actually laying in a gutter guzzling cologne and mouthwash.


Agreed. When I lived in Ontario I lived within easy distance of three reservations and I can honestly count on one hand how many "natives" I encountered that weren't a waste of skin. My partner went to a school with a high population of them. 16 year olds in grade 8 and still can't read, coming to school drunk etc. Suffice to say that he is resentful of the fact that he had to work his ass off to go to college while "the band" would pay for theirs, if they graduate of course. Touchy subject for a lot of Canadians.

Now that I live further west, I'm encountering a different sort of irritation, immigrants from third world countries who come here, never learn either of the official languages, live a dozen or more to one apartment, have a ton of screaming children, suck up all the funds from the social programs and then insult the people and the country that took them in. If (insert country here) is so damn great why did you leave? Why don't you just go back? Oh itís your culture that you love and not your country or its politics? Fair enough but keep your culture at home. If I want to partake in it, Iíll visit your booth at the multi-cultural festival in the summer. Otherwise I donít want it flouted in my face, on my lawn, driveway, pushed on me while Iím out walking etc. And thatís another thing, stop staring into my face. And stop jabbering in your language about how only infidels allow their women to wear pants and walk around with their heads uncovered AS you stare into my face. Yeah, I DO know what you are saying!

Donít misunderstand; Iím not down on immigrants in general. My parents were immigrants. They came to Canada, promptly learned the language and customs, my dad got a job, furthered his education, my mom raised us, then got a job as well. And thatís how I think it should be. Be whatever however you want to be at home, but in public there are acceptable and unacceptable ways to behave. And itís never acceptable to bash the people and country that took you in.
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For my sins I will ask no forgiveness. For my sins they are not to forgive.

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#447124 - 03/11/11 12:24 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
Midnight Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/27/09
Posts: 111
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Multiculturalism to me is very simple, it's many different races and cultures of people living in the same area. I don't believe multiculturalism is something that needs to 'work' it just 'is!'.

I grew up in Melbourne during the 80's and l have heard it said that Melbourne is the multicultural centre of the world. Good or bad, to me, is beside the point. Many people from many different countries live in Melbourne, some take up Australian ideas, traditions, cultures and some don't. Everybody pisses everybody off no matter what country you grew up in. As an Australian in high school, l was in the minority. The school population was made up of Italians, Greeks, Turks and other nationalities and then Australians. I had 3 close friends. an Italian, a Yougolsav and a girl from Finland. As long as you obeyed the laws, it didn't seem to matter if you kept your own heritage and cultures or take on the ones you liked from Australia. Until recently you didn't even have to speak or understand english to become an Australian citizen. Now apparently you have to take an english test.

I don't personally have a problem with New Zealanders but it is well known that Aussies and New Zealanders hang shit on each other, always have done. Why? l don't know, but l am sure there is a great piece of history in there.

I have read some really good post that point out a lot of very valid ideas. I don't think the 'issues' connected with multiculturalism have as much to do with it than what human nature and disliking differences in other people has. In Australia, again, Victorians are supposed to hate South Australians. Go figure! I live in the country and l hate the way city people move here to have the country experience but then whinge and complain because it's not like the city.

While a lot of the differences in other cultures can be tolerated we do have to uphold certain ideals that we need to ensure our own safety, health and the environment. While the muslims say they are innocent, how do we know if in the middle of summer, when everyone is wearing shorts and shirts, they still walk around totally covered from head to toe. And when my husband drives the truck to Melbourne, he goes into the tea room to get a drink and there is a sign on the sink "Please do not wash feet in the sink". He doesn't know if someone has just washed their feet or not. Sometimes there are guys on the floor bobbing up and down, supposedly praying, with their bowl of food in front of them. How hygienic is all of this?

I'm sure we could all tell a story about something that has affected us that we didn't like because it was different and we are not used to it. I don't care if its right or wrong, you are allowed to dislike things if you want. I guess if you are born in that area you feel you have a right to keep doing what you have always done, but if someone has moved into the area by choice it gets annoying when they complain or try to push their customs into your life, you feel like yelling, WELL LEAVE!

I certainly don't complain about some of the people from other countries and different cultures coming to live in Australia. My mother was born in Manchester, my father in Melbourne, my mother in law in East Germany and my father in law in West Germany on the Polish border but they each met and married in Australia. Go back a generation and my fathers family are from Scotland.

So that's my opinion, l guess l don't think of Multiculturalism as something to be dealt with or improved, for me it is the society that we live in with all the diversity that people bring with them. Unless their complaints directly effect me l choose to ignore them, if they stop me reaching my own goals and everyday needs then l will do something about it (within the law) but until then l don't even have to know they exist if l don't want to.

Hail Satan!
Midnight
_________________________
A man who dares to waste one hour of time has not discovered the value of life. - Charles Darwin

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#447125 - 03/11/11 12:45 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Bill_M]
Midnight Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/27/09
Posts: 111
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Interesting comment about the sheep-fuckers. My husband and l were in New Zealand in 2001 and we saw cows everywhere but hardly any sheep. It was funny because we always associate New Zealand with sheep. Maybe they wore the sheep out!!

Quote:
I have yet to meet an Australian who had anything positive to say about New Zealanders

If we ever meet in person l will try to remember to say something positive about New Zealand. I had great fun there even in stinky Rotorua. I loved the South Island so much we seriously looked at moving there. I just re-read your quote above and realised that you said New Zealanders, not New Zealand. I don't know many New Zealanders but our neighbour two doors down (who is a New Zealander) is the towns idiot!

I have to share this joke with you and it is a good example of what goes on between a lot of Aussies and New Zealanders. This is back in John Howards day too so its a bit old.


Spoken in an New Zealand accent

Helen Clarke, Prime Minister of New Zulland, is rudely awoken at 4am by
the telephone. "Hillen, its the hilth munister here. Sorry to bother you
at this hour but there is an emergency! I've just received word thet the
Durex fectory en Auckland has burned to the ground. It is istimated thet
the entire New Zulland supply of condoms will be gone by the ind of the
week."

"Shuuuuuut - the economy wull niver be able to cope with all those
unwanted babies - we'll be ruined!" "We're going to hef to shup some in
from broad... Britain?..." "No chence!! The Poms will have a field day on
on thus one!" "What about Australia?" "Maybe - but we don't want them to
know thet we are stuck. You call John Howard - tell hum we need one
moollion condoms; ten enches long and eight enches thuck! That way
they'll know how bug the Kiwis really are!!"

Helen calls John, who agrees to help the Kiwis out in their hour of need.

Three days later a van arrives in Auckland - full of boxes. A delighted
Helen rushes out to open the boxes. She finds condoms; 10 inches long; 8
inches thick, all coloured green and gold. She then notices in small
writing on each and every one.........

MADE IN AUSTRALIA - SIZE : MEDIUM

Hail Satan!
Midnight


Edited by Midnight (03/11/11 12:50 AM)
Edit Reason: Forgot to mention my neighbour two doors down is from NZ
_________________________
A man who dares to waste one hour of time has not discovered the value of life. - Charles Darwin

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#447223 - 03/12/11 04:00 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: TrojZyr]
J. Hagalaz Offline


Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 1212
Loc: USA
TrojZyre, you make a lot of valid points, and I will admit that some I didn't really consider before.

Quote:
Or, consider how blacks in America see themselves and each other as just plain African-Americans, but actually risk getting the shit kicked out of them when they travel to Africa, because some of the locals there might see them as someone who looks Kimbundu, Ashanti, or Fur. Likewise, while we see the Chinese as just "the Chinese," most folks don't realize that China's actually home to 56 recognized (plus several more unrecognized) ethnic groups.


First, I'd have to say that the most important thing to remember is that there are distinctions between race, ethnicity, and culture. And perhaps I jumped the gun by implying that racial inborn bias's will always lead to predictable social behaviors and attitudes. This may or may not be true. For example, developmental psychologists have found that daycare centers are the only places where children of different races come together. By around age five, they have already begun to form schemas about race (as well as gender and other categorical variables). They recognize children of their own race easier than those of other races, and they have begun to acquire an understanding of certain racial stereotypes. This begs the question of how much of this is actually learned, and how much is inborn. For example, would a black child raised in a white foster home have an easier time recognizing white children, or black children?

My concern relates more to the bigger picture. People will always identify with those who they PERCEIVE are most like themselves. This is why race becomes such a powerful variable in the affairs of the world. I'm sure most of us Satanists would look at it and say "so what? It's just an accident of birth, so get over it", but we should realize by now that most people lack that sense of perspective. Those in power are often bound by a belief that their particular racial heritage is superior to everyone else (this is VERIFIABLE when you examine U.S. politics, in terms of those who control U.S. policies and their beliefs, but this really is not the appropriate forum for me to elaborate). Those at the bottom believe their victim status as an oppressed minority entitles them to one day gain a similar position of power, which of course they would use to mistreat, disenfranchise, and control those they perceive are not like themselves. This is what humans do. I know that there are probably no "pure" races. I also know that most people don't act on facts such as this. They act on emotions. "Our people"..."our kind"..."the black community"..."the future of our white children"...all of these are examples of some powerful motivators, and most people respond to them, even if not consciously.
_________________________
They are doomed because they cannot even glimpse beyond the construct that their masters have put into place. Their masters are doomed because they believe in the construct they created.

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