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#446884 - 03/07/11 09:35 PM Multiculturalism
Liberterius Offline


Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 241
I have complicated but concrete views on the topic of multiculturalism.

I believe that people with some degree of different values can co-exist in the same geographic and political (countries or cities) area and not have to be segregated and kill each other.
That is, if they leave each other alone.
Despite some religion creeping into politics and some (what I consider) needless moralizing, Western countries, including the US (where I reside) do present multiculturalism and diversity quite well.

However, it is important to note, that immigrants to Western countries also co-exist so well because they have to a large extent assimilated. They may have to accept more lax social norms(women showing more skin, more obscenity, lack of public religion) than in their old country, as well as of course the language and manners.

This is where multiculturalism I find has limits; while immigrants can bring to their new countries different foods, music, clothing styles, and historical experiences, they MUST accept the PUBLIC ethical-political norms of that new country and culture. In Europe, women do NOT have to wear burkas and have a male guardian as they do in Saudi Arabia, and Muslim immigrants MUST accept this or leave.

It enrages and puzzles me when on the news I see these Muslim immigrants from places such as Sudan, who move to a liberal country such as Sweden, and then complain that their new home is full of infidels, and proceed to attack police and firefighters entering their little self-imposed ghettos, as they at the same time accept generous welfare checks, utilities, and economic opportunity. And then in Europe, and to a lesser extent the US, if you complain about such un-integrating, ungrateful scumbags, you're called racist and intolerant!

So there is a limit of multiculturalism; ultimately only ONE set of cultural norms can exist to be the standard of a country or region...some of those "sets" of norms may be more lax than others; in Western countries many lifestyles, religions, and styles of dress are accepted by most people, or at least not killed like they would be in Muslim countries. (Whereas Muslim or Asian norms may be more strict, have greater emphasis on family, different odd little ettiquite rules.) But ultimately, multiculturalism has limits to me.

My neighbor can be Muslim, but fuck them if they go calling ME and the native political leaders of this country that they CHOSE to move to infidels. In this country you have freedom of speech and can make cartoons mocking the prophet if you want. (And yes, it gives them freedom to criticize us for it too and express their religion, but they can't make threats, and they may still be being douches.)

So basically multiculturalism is fine by me when it's minor things, or PRIVATE ethical decisions, but I think Western citizens need to show a little more backbone and pride in their society, and demand that aggressively independent immigrants and minorities either integrate or go back where they came from.

(And again, I'm not racist, or against other people's lifestyles; people can listen to rap, be whatever religion they want, or have some pride in their old country. Just they should recognize that they move here, they play by OUR rules. It pisses me off seeing people fly the flags of Puerto Rico or Mexico, but never an American flag even alongside with them.)

What are your opinions?


Edited by Liberterius (03/07/11 10:00 PM)

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#446888 - 03/07/11 10:45 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
MoongleMoose Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 76
Loc: South O' Sydney
Multi-Culturism DOES work.
It's the close minded morons (on BOTH sides) that claim "It Doesn't".
Australia and New Zealand are proof of this, and have been for over sixty years.


Edited by MoongleMoose (03/07/11 10:46 PM)

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#446891 - 03/07/11 11:19 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
Darkcentre1 Offline


Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 38
Yes, I tend to agree with you Liberterius.

There are many positive qualities which multi - culturalism offers a nation.

However, I believe that Laws apply to all and that people should show some respect for the cultural/societal norms or heritage of their nation of residence, even if they were born somewhere else and do hold differing views.

I think that as each generation is born and grows it tends to leave behind the old prejudices. By that I mean that the children and grandchildren etc. of immigrants are going to tend to naturally assimilate with the pre-dominant forms of culture, as they are not as emotionally invested in the older forms of prejudices held by their parents or grand -parents etc.

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#446939 - 03/08/11 10:04 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: MoongleMoose]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11547
Loc: New England, USA
Quote:
Multi-Culturism [sic] DOES work.
It's the close minded morons (on BOTH sides) that claim "It Doesn't".

One of the problems with the term "multiculturalism" is that it's not very well defined. Quite often it's used as a euphemism for tolerating customs and ideologies that don't want to tolerate others in the first place.

Originally Posted By: MoongleMoose
Australia and New Zealand are proof of this, and have been for over sixty years.

I have yet to meet an Australian who had anything positive to say about New Zealanders, or vice-versa. Each group seems convinced that the other is made up of idiots and sheep-fuckers.

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#446941 - 03/08/11 10:26 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Quote:
This is where multiculturalism I find has limits; while immigrants can bring to their new countries different foods, music, clothing styles, and historical experiences, they MUST accept the PUBLIC ethical-political norms of that new country and culture.


Quite right. For society to function, everyone has to agree to abide by some basic ground rules.

Well, and while I think societies generally benefit from exposure to new ideas, new inventions, new words, new foods, and new artistic styles, and I think individuals ultimately benefit from having to learn how to interact with people different from themselves, I also think most folks underestimate just how difficult multiculturalism is to pull off even halfway-successfully.

Entirely too many people I know believe that it's just a matter of everyone recognizing each other's inherent value and beauty as human beings, and then it's all kumbaya from there. Yeah, no.
It's typically a long, hard road, often paved with catfights and bloodshed.

But, if you look at how far Western Civilization has come in recognizing people who were previously just seen as animals or otherworldly freaks, you see that people can learn to stretch the boundaries of their "tribe."

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#446944 - 03/08/11 10:40 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Bill_M]
Mr_47 Offline
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Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3082
Loc: Pure Imagination
Originally Posted By: Bill_M

I have yet to meet an Australian who had anything positive to say about New Zealanders, or vice-versa. Each group seems convinced that the other is made up of idiots and sheep-fuckers.



My mother married an Australian and moved there. I can concur with this statement. He always refers to New Zealanders as sheep-fuckers.

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#446945 - 03/08/11 10:43 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: TrojZyr]
Mr_47 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3082
Loc: Pure Imagination
Originally Posted By: TrojZyr


But, if you look at how far Western Civilization has come in recognizing people who were previously just seen as animals or otherworldly freaks, you see that people can learn to stretch the boundaries of their "tribe."



I agree. When compared to how America was in the 1800's prior to the Emancipation Proclamation or even after the Japanese-American internment camps of the WWII era, even after the Civil Rights movement, we've come a long way as a country in accepting multiculturalism.

But as you said, it's a long road and it's far from over.

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#446947 - 03/08/11 10:49 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: MoongleMoose]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
The history of western contact with Australia (and Oceania in general) begins with white settlers displacing and killing off the indigeneous population and establishing a pretty standard issue western society in their place.

Today, aborigines enjoy a pleasant life of scratching out an existence in the desert, subsidized by a government that feels bad about the past, and occasionally binging on alcohol and candy.

Yep, sounds like a classic case of multiculturalism.

Not, mind you, that there's anything wrong with that. That's what conquering societies do: get rid of the backwards natives and build something else more to their liking. Though today, it seems we have this funny idea that we should keep the remnants of the long-ago overrun people alive in some kind of suspended animation like a zoo exhibit so we can say we are multicultural and don't approve of all that conquest and land stealing. Of course, we keep the land. That much is ours.

Multiculturalism is a charade. Any serious attempts at it have or are currently leading to internal strife and population pressure. More half assed attempts have fewer overall negative effects on the society at large but are more transparently farcical.
_________________________
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#446950 - 03/08/11 11:00 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

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Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
immigrants can bring to their new countries different foods, music, clothing styles, and historical experiences

I'm not going to disagree with the sentiment at large, but it is not telling that the limits on what is acceptable cultural baggage are a bunch of shit that people really have little reason to care about except as an identity badge?

Food. I always hear about fucking food brought up whenever foreign culture is discussed. Why the hell does everyone think culture = food? Cause them crazy for'ners eat weird shit? They do, but the point is, if for some reason I made up my mind, for whatever reason, that I needed to live in Japan, I doubt eating hamburgers every day would be high on my list of concerns in my new country.

Music. Again, this is what people really care about? Why go elsewhere when you're just trying to drag your old shit along with you? Nevermind that it appears that a great many immigrants are more interested in YOU hearing their music than listening to it themselves.

Clothing styles. Again, why? There's this old saying, "When in Rome...". Thankfully few people really bother with this, running around in a Mao uniform is a little conspicuous and wearing a rug on your chest is equally disruptive in most places.

I am, at least, on board with keeping your national history alive. That much is indeed significant and not just a token trash reminder to those around you that you're different. Unfortunately, illiterate masses usually don't know about or care about history, their's or anyone else's.

In summary, most of the things named are things that, from my experience, the majority of immigrants with any real desire to assimilate don't bother hanging on to. They come here, they wear western clothes, eat regular old food like everyone else, and probably don't give a rat's ass about music. Notably, the ones flaunting all of the above are the ones most conspiculously NOT assimilating. That guy hanging out the window of his car wearing a decidedly colorful blanket, shouting in Spanish, barely audible over the tejano music blasting from his ride? He isn't assimilated. Though it is possible that he makes a fine burrito.
_________________________
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#446951 - 03/08/11 11:18 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1812
Loc: Denmark
My idea about multiculturalism is that a country should have open borders, but closed welfare services towards immigrants. This will attract those who are willing to make something for themselves in their new country.

Personally I think that for instance my own country is trying to find bureaucratic ways to get rid of the freeloaders, but in the process they end up alienating the productive immigrants ... and in some ways myself too.

I see myself more as being part of an Anglo-Saxon culture, as opposed to a Danish one. So the more nationalistic I see my own country become, the less I feel in tune with it.
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#446964 - 03/08/11 03:25 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
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Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
As a subject of study, the diversity of human cultures has been a source of lifelong enjoyment. I like learning about different people. While in formal education, I did more than simply earn mediocre grades by burying my nose in books. I slipped into less than honorable academic mention because I spent most of my time around people who were, technically speaking, way different than the folk I grew up around. Growing up, I knew only a few Catholics, no jews and more drunken Baptists than I could shake a stick at.

What did I learn from all this besides some interesting recipes, a passing knowledge of global world views and it IS a fact...Chinese people can't drive? That in the real world, any romantic idealism about multi-culturalism, rainbow coalitions and appreciation of other peoples is a great big pile of super duper solipsism. Most people truly distrust anyone that doesn't look, think and talk like them. Politically, it is a constant hinderance to actually getting anywhere. In neighborhoods, it creates polite neighbors who put hate literature in your mail box when you aren't looking. In the end, people either assimilate or they end up killing each other.

That doesn't mean there won't be some weirdos who seem able to see beyond...even enjoy the differences in other people. It just won't catch on.
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#446965 - 03/08/11 03:36 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
anna Offline


Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 219
Loc: Poland
Quote:
This is where multiculturalism I find has limits; while immigrants can bring to their new countries different foods, music, clothing styles, and historical experiences, they MUST accept the PUBLIC ethical-political norms of that new country and culture. In Europe, women do NOT have to wear burkas and have a male guardian as they do in Saudi Arabia, and Muslim immigrants MUST accept this or leave.


So if immigrants can bring to their new countries different clothing styles why forbid Muslim women to wear burkas? I understand that it can be an issue at work, as there are many jobs that require the employees to wear a uniform, an apron or other work clothes. But I don't think that wearing a burka in the street, at school, at the cinema or other public places can hurt anybody. If some Muslim women want to wear their traditional clothes they should be allowed to wear them.

The problem appears if women are forced to wear burkas by their husbands or are abused by them in some other ways. But this is a part of domestic abuse and violence.

So the most important thing is if the immigrants are law abiding and do not disturb peace.
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#446968 - 03/08/11 05:15 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: anna]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8262
So if immigrants can bring to their new countries different clothing styles why forbid Muslim women to wear burkas?

Security. Plain and simple. When you have a religion that harbors members that are Hell bent on destroying the Western world it makes no sense to have members of said religion walking around in Halloween costumes, covering their faces. It is a potential threat, and the country these people have come to has the right and obligation to provide security for its citizens.

If they don't like it, too bad. They are welcome to go back to their countries of origin that, by the way, insist foreigners obey their standards of dress.

http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/articles/2009-Summer/full-Bachrach.html
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#446972 - 03/08/11 06:14 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
Why the hell does everyone think culture = food?


Because it is! And it's not just a matter of nationality=food, because every different regions of the same country have their unique local foods. How you eat, what you eat, what you don't eat, and who you do or don't eat can have far-reaching implications, where cultural practices and assumptions are concerned.

Food also has the power to transport a person back to other places and times, and to provide a sense of comfort, familiarity, joy, and warmth. This effect is typically multiplied when people get to eat with the people they enjoy or care about.

Well, I'm honestly more interested in me getting to eat Malaysian or Afghani food, than I am in whether Malaysians or Afghans are eating their own food, just as long as they continue feed me the good stuff. I'm largely interested in what me and mine can get out of living in a diverse, multicultural society, because Chinese Food made by white people just doesn't cut it.

Well, and we've named the tangibles because they're easy to point to. Culture also comprises a lot of abstract intangibles, as well, such as history, traditions, language, values, and basic assumptions about the world.
_________________________
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"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#446982 - 03/08/11 09:29 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Mr_47]
MoongleMoose Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 76
Loc: South O' Sydney
Originally Posted By: Mr_47
Originally Posted By: Bill_M

I have yet to meet an Australian who had anything positive to say about New Zealanders, or vice-versa. Each group seems convinced that the other is made up of idiots and sheep-fuckers.


My mother married an Australian and moved there. I can concur with this statement. He always refers to New Zealanders as sheep-fuckers.



This is incorrect. I would attempt to try and explain the Australian humor between Aus and NZ, but it would take me an entire essay. Instead, I shall reference ANZAC and the recent earth quake in Christchurch for a strong argument.

Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
Today, aborigines enjoy a pleasant life of scratching out an existence in the desert, subsidized by a government that feels bad about the past, and occasionally binging on alcohol and candy.


Not only is this a racist statement towards Australians, it's also heavily generalised and untrue.



I think the statement; "Multiculturalism works, to an extent" is a more so correct and politely correct statement. In order for MC to work, all cultures have to be able to commit to compromise. This is especially the case with the party trying to gain entry to a country. I shall again use Australia as an example for this. Sixty years ago we saw a large migration from eurpoeans. Not only did they bring their culture over (which WAS very different to what British Australia was used to), they also performed levels of compromise in order to make their life a lot easier and happier. Over the last twenty years, Australia has seen a large surge of Asians coming over as well. This was met with extreme hostility (see Pauline Hanson and the wankers that followed her). The hype eventually died down and we began to see a multicultural society flourish.

The key point that dominates MC arguments in Australia now is Muslims. Here are the problems with the issue. For one, there are a MINORITY of people from the middle-east that want nothing to do with Australia, yet live here and demand that everyone else compromise for them. This, as said, is a minority, and these people are laughed at and socially exorcised by not only every day Australians, but Middle-East-Australians, the media and even the government.

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#446983 - 03/08/11 09:44 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: MoongleMoose]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
Not only is this a racist statement towards Australians, it's also heavily generalised and untrue.

So you're saying that as a whole, aborigines are living on economic and social parity with Australians of western descent? Somehow I have a feeling the numbers don't support such an assertion.

Also, I'm not particularly bothered by being called a racist. Facts are facts, regardless of how much they are at odds with what we like to believe about ourselves.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#446984 - 03/08/11 10:02 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: MoongleMoose]
Mr_47 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3082
Loc: Pure Imagination
Quote:
This is incorrect. I would attempt to try and explain the Australian humor between Aus and NZ, but it would take me an entire essay. Instead, I shall reference ANZAC and the recent earth quake in Christchurch for a strong argument.


You're telling me that my stepfather referring to NZ's as sheep-fuckers is incorrect?

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#446987 - 03/08/11 10:49 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Mr_47]
MoongleMoose Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 11/09/09
Posts: 76
Loc: South O' Sydney
Originally Posted By: Mr_47
Quote:
This is incorrect. I would attempt to try and explain the Australian humor between Aus and NZ, but it would take me an entire essay. Instead, I shall reference ANZAC and the recent earth quake in Christchurch for a strong argument.


You're telling me that my stepfather referring to NZ's as sheep-fuckers is incorrect?



Where did you deduct that from? Your stepfather can say whatever he so pleases, however you're trying to assume that just because he says they're sheep fuckers, that there is this rift between Aussies and New Zealanders. Which is not the case.


Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
So you're saying that as a whole, aborigines are living on economic and social parity with Australians of western descent? Somehow I have a feeling the numbers don't support such an assertion.


No I never said that, I just wanted to refute a gross generalisation that assumes that Australian Aboriginals are alcoholics, poor and fit into a lower socio-economic category. There are problems that Aboriginals face, however these are not "Aboriginal Problems". It is impossible to try and compare Aboriginals to Westerners, and attempting to integrate them into a westernised culture has proven to be overall ineffective, which is why Australia is a multi-cultural society. In saying that, aboriginals are far too often stood against a common western man in comparison. This doesn't work for a number of reasons, chiefly that what our outward observations of aboriginal behavior understands is limited purely by media and second hand information.

I have lived, worked with and met countless Aboriginals, and have gained first hand the understanding of their cultural differences with western ideologies. There IS a big difference, and assuming that they aren't "living on economic and social parity with Australians of western descent" is an oxymoron. It's a completely different kettle of fish.



Quote:
Also, I'm not particularly bothered by being called a racist.


I never said you were a racist, but your statement is considered racist by Australian standards.


Edited by MoongleMoose (03/08/11 10:53 PM)

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#446993 - 03/09/11 03:10 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
J. Hagalaz Offline


Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 1212
Loc: USA
It's rather unfortunate, but I can't see any evidence of multiculturalism having a happy ending. It seems to add an unnecessary level of conflict and strife to any country dealing with it. It's difficult to talk about multiculturalism without mentioning the relevance of race as well, because there are so many differences between the races and these differences can sometimes lead to many problems in terms of assimilation.

Sociologists will often point out that these differences are purely cultural, and that they are malleable constructs and therefore people can "learn to get along". I'm not sure that this is necessarily true. I think there are some very real biological and cognitive differences between the races that are translated into their cultural behaviors and attitudes. And basically what we end up with is one breed of human vying for power and domination over the other, either overtly or subtly. So by DESIGN we can't all "just get along." Unfortunate, but apparently true.
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#447007 - 03/09/11 10:02 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Quote:
I'm not sure that this is necessarily true. I think there are some very real biological and cognitive differences between the races that are translated into their cultural behaviors and attitudes.


Yes, but there are also fundamental, universal drives that are shared by all human beings, as well as even more fundamental and essential drives and instincts which are shared by all mammals.

More importantly, the way people draw the boundaries of the "in- group" and "out-group" is often quite arbitrary or logically-inconsistent, especially where biology and genetics are concerned. Just look at Pakistan and India. Just look at how most Americans felt about the Irish, the Chinese, and the Italians in the 19th century, versus how the majority think now (particularly about the Irish and the Italians). Or, consider how blacks in America see themselves and each other as just plain African-Americans, but actually risk getting the shit kicked out of them when they travel to Africa, because some of the locals there might see them as someone who looks Kimbundu, Ashanti, or Fur. Likewise, while we see the Chinese as just "the Chinese," most folks don't realize that China's actually home to 56 recognized (plus several more unrecognized) ethnic groups.

Oprah even got people to tear into each other over eye colour!:

http://www.oprah.com/oprahshow/Race-on-The-Oprah-Show-A-25-Year-Look-Back/4

Furthermore, that Obama is physically, genetically, and perhaps even (arguably) cognitively different from a sizable percentage of Americans didn't stop a plurality of them from voting him into office!

Well, and on that note, scarcely a hundred years ago, many respected thinkers were of the opinion that women were strange, flighty creatures meant for different things than the rest of "us," and that letting them into the political or public sphere was just going to result in a major meltdown therefore. Granted, I think you need to be realistically prepared for certain kinds of problems or challenges when you mix men and women--or whites and blacks, or Chinese and Japanese, or Jews and Christians, or theists and atheists--but the point is that many systems and many individuals have figured out more-or-less how to make it work, after many insisted that it simply wasn't possible, no way, no how.

While all of the participants here were white and male, I still think this study has some important insights, where making and breaking human in-groups is concerned:

http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/psychology/social/sherif_robbers_cave_experiment.html

Of course, you still need to have an outside enemy on hand, but we'll always have plenty of those, Satan willing (especially if they don't necessarily have to be "real")...
_________________________
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"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#447015 - 03/09/11 01:06 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: MoongleMoose]
Mr_47 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 3082
Loc: Pure Imagination
When you quoted my reply to Bill, which included my anecdote about sheep fuckers, your first statement was "That is incorrect." Hence why I asked.

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#447056 - 03/09/11 10:25 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Bedlam Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 1656
Loc: Perfidious Albion
Quote:
Food. I always hear about fucking food brought up whenever foreign culture is discussed. Why the hell does everyone think culture = food? Cause them crazy for'ners eat weird shit?


laugh

I just burped, laughed and farted at the same time.
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#447085 - 03/10/11 11:57 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: MoongleMoose]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
>>Not only is this a racist statement towards Australians, it's also heavily generalised and untrue.

sick . . . vomit

How was that comment racist?

It would be better to understand your conclusion by why you feel it was racist than by just calling it racist.
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#447095 - 03/10/11 03:30 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Discipline]
Darkcentre1 Offline


Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 38
I am an Australian (have lived in Sydney for 42 years) and do not regard the Reverend's comments to be personally offensive, or completely wrong, or racist.

Sheesh, it's getting so you can't say anything anymore because somebody is going to misunderstand it and get all offended and butthurt.

There is still a lot of guilt hanging around this country when it comes to its indigenous people and a lot of these people are still living pretty poorly. People should be able to talk about it honestly.

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#447099 - 03/10/11 05:12 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Darkcentre1]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
It wasn't intended as a jab at Australia - I didn't pull the comments about binging on alcohol and candy while scratching a living in the desert out of my ass. It's a well documented "social problem" among aborigines, comparable to American Indians (in their case it's rampant alcoholism and poverty).

Alternately, see Canada. Considerable lip service to "native rights." Reality is that no small part of them are actually laying in a gutter guzzling cologne and mouthwash.

I call a spade a spade. Primitive cultures are quaint when read about in a history book, realistically their standard of living wasn't too hot and the cultural baggage they carry drags them down. There's little need to resort to genetic arguments; when your ancestors spent the last few millenia barely surviving off insects and raw fish and living in huts of grass and mud (or ice) or hides, the transition to a world-dominating western culture is slow indeed.

It's fine to mention that some have integrated successfully. There are Indians and aborigines and eskimos that live normal lives practically indistinguishable from the rest of the nation. But that is not multiculturalism, that is integration.

The degree to which anything resembling multiculturalism works depends entirely on the compatability of the cultures in question. By all accounts, French, Germans, and Italians get along famously in Switzerland. But they've also forged a relatively unified Swiss culture in the process, and their parent cultures are not particularly different, all being western European Christian cultures. Contrary to this, white colonists and black natives have not exactly gotten along so well in S. Africa, and in such cases the difference is not merely visible, it's blatantly obvious.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#447101 - 03/10/11 05:55 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Darkcentre1 Offline


Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 38
Yes, your straight talking is appreciated by me (and I would speculate, by many other Australian's as well)Reverend.

I do think there is a problem and the only way it can be honestly assessed and addressed is with straight talking.

I tend to think that if people will just take some resposibility for themselves, and stand up and get on with it, then half the problem could be solved right then and there. Maybe I am being a bit of a dreamer, not sure.

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#447113 - 03/10/11 09:53 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Lilibeta Offline


Registered: 12/06/08
Posts: 157
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
Alternately, see Canada. Considerable lip service to "native rights." Reality is that no small part of them are actually laying in a gutter guzzling cologne and mouthwash.


Agreed. When I lived in Ontario I lived within easy distance of three reservations and I can honestly count on one hand how many "natives" I encountered that weren't a waste of skin. My partner went to a school with a high population of them. 16 year olds in grade 8 and still can't read, coming to school drunk etc. Suffice to say that he is resentful of the fact that he had to work his ass off to go to college while "the band" would pay for theirs, if they graduate of course. Touchy subject for a lot of Canadians.

Now that I live further west, I'm encountering a different sort of irritation, immigrants from third world countries who come here, never learn either of the official languages, live a dozen or more to one apartment, have a ton of screaming children, suck up all the funds from the social programs and then insult the people and the country that took them in. If (insert country here) is so damn great why did you leave? Why don't you just go back? Oh it’s your culture that you love and not your country or its politics? Fair enough but keep your culture at home. If I want to partake in it, I’ll visit your booth at the multi-cultural festival in the summer. Otherwise I don’t want it flouted in my face, on my lawn, driveway, pushed on me while I’m out walking etc. And that’s another thing, stop staring into my face. And stop jabbering in your language about how only infidels allow their women to wear pants and walk around with their heads uncovered AS you stare into my face. Yeah, I DO know what you are saying!

Don’t misunderstand; I’m not down on immigrants in general. My parents were immigrants. They came to Canada, promptly learned the language and customs, my dad got a job, furthered his education, my mom raised us, then got a job as well. And that’s how I think it should be. Be whatever however you want to be at home, but in public there are acceptable and unacceptable ways to behave. And it’s never acceptable to bash the people and country that took you in.
_________________________

For my sins I will ask no forgiveness. For my sins they are not to forgive.

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#447124 - 03/11/11 12:24 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
Midnight Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/27/09
Posts: 111
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Multiculturalism to me is very simple, it's many different races and cultures of people living in the same area. I don't believe multiculturalism is something that needs to 'work' it just 'is!'.

I grew up in Melbourne during the 80's and l have heard it said that Melbourne is the multicultural centre of the world. Good or bad, to me, is beside the point. Many people from many different countries live in Melbourne, some take up Australian ideas, traditions, cultures and some don't. Everybody pisses everybody off no matter what country you grew up in. As an Australian in high school, l was in the minority. The school population was made up of Italians, Greeks, Turks and other nationalities and then Australians. I had 3 close friends. an Italian, a Yougolsav and a girl from Finland. As long as you obeyed the laws, it didn't seem to matter if you kept your own heritage and cultures or take on the ones you liked from Australia. Until recently you didn't even have to speak or understand english to become an Australian citizen. Now apparently you have to take an english test.

I don't personally have a problem with New Zealanders but it is well known that Aussies and New Zealanders hang shit on each other, always have done. Why? l don't know, but l am sure there is a great piece of history in there.

I have read some really good post that point out a lot of very valid ideas. I don't think the 'issues' connected with multiculturalism have as much to do with it than what human nature and disliking differences in other people has. In Australia, again, Victorians are supposed to hate South Australians. Go figure! I live in the country and l hate the way city people move here to have the country experience but then whinge and complain because it's not like the city.

While a lot of the differences in other cultures can be tolerated we do have to uphold certain ideals that we need to ensure our own safety, health and the environment. While the muslims say they are innocent, how do we know if in the middle of summer, when everyone is wearing shorts and shirts, they still walk around totally covered from head to toe. And when my husband drives the truck to Melbourne, he goes into the tea room to get a drink and there is a sign on the sink "Please do not wash feet in the sink". He doesn't know if someone has just washed their feet or not. Sometimes there are guys on the floor bobbing up and down, supposedly praying, with their bowl of food in front of them. How hygienic is all of this?

I'm sure we could all tell a story about something that has affected us that we didn't like because it was different and we are not used to it. I don't care if its right or wrong, you are allowed to dislike things if you want. I guess if you are born in that area you feel you have a right to keep doing what you have always done, but if someone has moved into the area by choice it gets annoying when they complain or try to push their customs into your life, you feel like yelling, WELL LEAVE!

I certainly don't complain about some of the people from other countries and different cultures coming to live in Australia. My mother was born in Manchester, my father in Melbourne, my mother in law in East Germany and my father in law in West Germany on the Polish border but they each met and married in Australia. Go back a generation and my fathers family are from Scotland.

So that's my opinion, l guess l don't think of Multiculturalism as something to be dealt with or improved, for me it is the society that we live in with all the diversity that people bring with them. Unless their complaints directly effect me l choose to ignore them, if they stop me reaching my own goals and everyday needs then l will do something about it (within the law) but until then l don't even have to know they exist if l don't want to.

Hail Satan!
Midnight
_________________________
A man who dares to waste one hour of time has not discovered the value of life. - Charles Darwin

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#447125 - 03/11/11 12:45 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Bill_M]
Midnight Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/27/09
Posts: 111
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Interesting comment about the sheep-fuckers. My husband and l were in New Zealand in 2001 and we saw cows everywhere but hardly any sheep. It was funny because we always associate New Zealand with sheep. Maybe they wore the sheep out!!

Quote:
I have yet to meet an Australian who had anything positive to say about New Zealanders

If we ever meet in person l will try to remember to say something positive about New Zealand. I had great fun there even in stinky Rotorua. I loved the South Island so much we seriously looked at moving there. I just re-read your quote above and realised that you said New Zealanders, not New Zealand. I don't know many New Zealanders but our neighbour two doors down (who is a New Zealander) is the towns idiot!

I have to share this joke with you and it is a good example of what goes on between a lot of Aussies and New Zealanders. This is back in John Howards day too so its a bit old.


Spoken in an New Zealand accent

Helen Clarke, Prime Minister of New Zulland, is rudely awoken at 4am by
the telephone. "Hillen, its the hilth munister here. Sorry to bother you
at this hour but there is an emergency! I've just received word thet the
Durex fectory en Auckland has burned to the ground. It is istimated thet
the entire New Zulland supply of condoms will be gone by the ind of the
week."

"Shuuuuuut - the economy wull niver be able to cope with all those
unwanted babies - we'll be ruined!" "We're going to hef to shup some in
from broad... Britain?..." "No chence!! The Poms will have a field day on
on thus one!" "What about Australia?" "Maybe - but we don't want them to
know thet we are stuck. You call John Howard - tell hum we need one
moollion condoms; ten enches long and eight enches thuck! That way
they'll know how bug the Kiwis really are!!"

Helen calls John, who agrees to help the Kiwis out in their hour of need.

Three days later a van arrives in Auckland - full of boxes. A delighted
Helen rushes out to open the boxes. She finds condoms; 10 inches long; 8
inches thick, all coloured green and gold. She then notices in small
writing on each and every one.........

MADE IN AUSTRALIA - SIZE : MEDIUM

Hail Satan!
Midnight


Edited by Midnight (03/11/11 12:50 AM)
Edit Reason: Forgot to mention my neighbour two doors down is from NZ
_________________________
A man who dares to waste one hour of time has not discovered the value of life. - Charles Darwin

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#447223 - 03/12/11 04:00 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: TrojZyr]
J. Hagalaz Offline


Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 1212
Loc: USA
TrojZyre, you make a lot of valid points, and I will admit that some I didn't really consider before.

Quote:
Or, consider how blacks in America see themselves and each other as just plain African-Americans, but actually risk getting the shit kicked out of them when they travel to Africa, because some of the locals there might see them as someone who looks Kimbundu, Ashanti, or Fur. Likewise, while we see the Chinese as just "the Chinese," most folks don't realize that China's actually home to 56 recognized (plus several more unrecognized) ethnic groups.


First, I'd have to say that the most important thing to remember is that there are distinctions between race, ethnicity, and culture. And perhaps I jumped the gun by implying that racial inborn bias's will always lead to predictable social behaviors and attitudes. This may or may not be true. For example, developmental psychologists have found that daycare centers are the only places where children of different races come together. By around age five, they have already begun to form schemas about race (as well as gender and other categorical variables). They recognize children of their own race easier than those of other races, and they have begun to acquire an understanding of certain racial stereotypes. This begs the question of how much of this is actually learned, and how much is inborn. For example, would a black child raised in a white foster home have an easier time recognizing white children, or black children?

My concern relates more to the bigger picture. People will always identify with those who they PERCEIVE are most like themselves. This is why race becomes such a powerful variable in the affairs of the world. I'm sure most of us Satanists would look at it and say "so what? It's just an accident of birth, so get over it", but we should realize by now that most people lack that sense of perspective. Those in power are often bound by a belief that their particular racial heritage is superior to everyone else (this is VERIFIABLE when you examine U.S. politics, in terms of those who control U.S. policies and their beliefs, but this really is not the appropriate forum for me to elaborate). Those at the bottom believe their victim status as an oppressed minority entitles them to one day gain a similar position of power, which of course they would use to mistreat, disenfranchise, and control those they perceive are not like themselves. This is what humans do. I know that there are probably no "pure" races. I also know that most people don't act on facts such as this. They act on emotions. "Our people"..."our kind"..."the black community"..."the future of our white children"...all of these are examples of some powerful motivators, and most people respond to them, even if not consciously.
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They are doomed because they cannot even glimpse beyond the construct that their masters have put into place. Their masters are doomed because they believe in the construct they created.

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#447328 - 03/13/11 06:00 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
skullunit Offline


Registered: 01/22/11
Posts: 37
Loc: "heavens waiting room"
Whatever ones position on "multiculturalism", I hope the understanding has been shaped by personal study and experience instead of the spin perpetrated in the media and government controlled schools. Lest we forget "The most dangerous of all enthroned lies is the holy, the sanctified, the privileged lie - the lie everyone believes to be a model truth. It is the fruitful mother of all other popular errors and delusions. It is a hydra-headed tree of unreason with a thousand roots. It is a social cancer!" -Book of Satan. ( this quote is for those who still have not read the Satanic Bible) There is a great deal of suppressed literature on the subject and many of the arguments are very compelling especially in light of the problems in the world today. It's hard to deny certain "conspiracy theories" when one can plainly see what is going on around him in part as a result of multiculturalism. Use the Internet while it's still free to learn the truth you will never hear in politically correct circles.
_________________________
Here and now is our day of torment! Here and now is our day of joy! Here and now is our Opportunity — to eat or to be eaten — to be Lion or Lamb! -Ragnar Redbeard

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#447340 - 03/13/11 11:50 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: J. Hagalaz]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: JEHJr
First, I'd have to say that the most important thing to remember is that there are distinctions between race, ethnicity, and culture.


Righto, and they do tend to get blurred together.

Quote:
For example, developmental psychologists have found that daycare centers are the only places where children of different races come together.


Righto again---and, to balance that out, other studies (and people's personal experiences) have shown that children can be quite quick to pick up on differences, and then judge themselves and others based on them.

But, then, the next question is how the children decided which differences to focus in on---so, did they come upon something by themselves, or are they taking cues from the adults?

Quote:
By around age five, they have already begun to form schemas about race (as well as gender and other categorical variables). They recognize children of their own race easier than those of other races, and they have begun to acquire an understanding of certain racial stereotypes. This begs the question of how much of this is actually learned, and how much is inborn. For example, would a black child raised in a white foster home have an easier time recognizing white children, or black children?


I think that's a very good question! I think a large part of it would depend on how the child saw others reacting to "blackness," because that's often how both black and white kids develop negative schemas about blackness, and positive ones about whiteness.

Quote:
People will always identify with those who they PERCEIVE are most like themselves.


Absolutely.

Of course, from there, I think it is possible to shift or influence people's perceptions and appraisals of "similarity" and "difference."

So, I suppose I'm an optimistic-pessimist, in that while I believe you can't change the fundamental laws of human nature, I think you can certainly use them to your advantage. The laws aren't breakable, but they are quite bendable, thankfully.

Quote:
but we should realize by now that most people lack that sense of perspective. Those in power are often bound by a belief that their particular racial heritage is superior to everyone else (this is VERIFIABLE when you examine U.S. politics, in terms of those who control U.S. policies and their beliefs, but this really is not the appropriate forum for me to elaborate). Those at the bottom believe their victim status as an oppressed minority entitles them to one day gain a similar position of power, which of course they would use to mistreat, disenfranchise, and control those they perceive are not like themselves. This is what humans do. I know that there are probably no "pure" races. I also know that most people don't act on facts such as this. They act on emotions. "Our people"..."our kind"..."the black community"..."the future of our white children"...all of these are examples of some powerful motivators, and most people respond to them, even if not consciously.


Absolutely right. We need to be realistic about the variables other people see as salient or powerful, even though we may view them as petty or trivial. Denying these realities certainly won't make them go away, at least.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#447482 - 03/15/11 02:48 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: MoongleMoose]
ConquerOrPerish Offline


Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 228
Loc: DC Metro Area
I have to disagree with you on that one.

In Australia there are riots against the Lebanese immigrants. The Sudanese immigrants have co-opted the label "black". They're black but to them black means striking an aggressive pose, which blue collar whites of Queensland find very offputting and which causes them to racially profile innocent blacks who were living there before.

Multiculturalism is a scourge. All immigrants should be encouraged to assimilate. How dare immigrants come to a foreign country and then start making demands on that country? They are abusing Western-style protesting and tradition of tolerance to demand that THEIR close-minded cultures be preserved in a new place. If they don't like the new ways, they shouldn't have come here or they should leave.
_________________________
"I, even I, am my own redeemer". -Ragnar Redbeard

"Making a difference makes sense only if you are convinced that you have mastered the subject at hand to the point where any difference you might make would be for the better." -Thomas Sowell


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#447508 - 03/15/11 06:44 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
In many countries, multiculturalism is not about immigrants, nor about indigenous populations. (Though if anyone has the right to complain about ill-behaved immigrants, it's Indians and aborigines.)

The word "multiculturalism" was invented to describe the situation of countries like Switzerland, Belgium, and Canada, where the main cultures were not newcomers. In these cases, assimilation is not an option, and neither is separation.

The meaning of the word has since spread to cover the situation of immigrants and indigenous people. The idea is, we know that people with different cultures can find a way to live together, because there are already countries where that happens. The problems have to do with how, precisely, that gets negotiated in the details. The devil is always in the details.


Edited by reprobate (03/15/11 06:44 PM)
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reprobate

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#447714 - 03/19/11 02:02 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/find...he-had-bad-week

Ah, the melting pot.

Having attended a school that was dominated by Asians I can understand the slight feeling of "where the heck am I?" But overall, most of the Asian kids I attend class with were just as wacky as I am which really never developed into anything noticeable.

I have made plenty of racist jokes in my day which is probably a result of the military. Join the military and watch the interesting inter-racial comradeship that takes place through rude jokes. It is astounding.

Of course there is a time and place to make those jokes and observations. I don't think Facebook is the place though.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#447730 - 03/19/11 09:30 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
Valtiel Offline


Registered: 03/19/11
Posts: 87
Loc: Hollywood
It's one of those subjects with no answer that doesn't invite argument.

I myself have acclimatized to living in the states, and can't say I don't complain about the differences all the time, and the differences between the US and my home country of England are mostly superficial anyway. People that come from more radically different cultures and distant parts of the world would of course be even more distanced from what they know and what they like. It's difficult to go anywhere and no want to bring your own world with you, unless you're trying to leave something behind I suppose.

Places that are multicultural by definition are strange. Parts of Arizona are trying so hard to be open to all things Spanish, and simultaneously be southwest America, and it all comes off as half-arsed in both respects. As soon as a town tries to adopt another culture all that seems to happen is those that belong to the original culture in question get offended at the imitation.
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For I am the way.

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#447745 - 03/20/11 12:17 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Discipline]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: Discipline
I have made plenty of racist jokes in my day which is probably a result of the military.


Ditto (except the military part, of course). Some jokes are funny because they're true. Some are funny because they're not true, and yet people think they are. Many are funny because they're true, but not for the reason the people who usually tell them in think they are. Most are funny because it's just fun to get away with something forbidden and scandalous.

I've been known to lob some particularly fiery zingers out in moments of anger or irritation--though, even then, I usually have the sense to save it for when I'm in the company of close friends and family!

But, I usually become uncomfortable when others' comments or jokes cross over into the territory of genuine hate and venom. So, I definitely have my limits.

Mostly, I'm just puzzled by this chick's comment, because I think most Americans have horrendously shitty phone manners. Well, and there's also that little detail about not all Asians being Japanese...

Quote:
Of course there is a time and place to make those jokes and observations. I don't think Facebook is the place though.


Oh, Hell no. Facebook is the last place to do that sort of thing. When will people learn? (Oh, right--never mind...)
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#447788 - 03/20/11 04:29 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
I'm reading a fascinating book called Nurture Shock, about common myths and misconceptions about child-rearing.

The chapter on race relations has even challenged and uprooted some of my own implicit assumptions about how one should go about teaching a child to be "tolerant:"

(Chapter starts on pg. 47)

http://books.google.com/books?id=AlknZbh...p;q&f=false

(The book can also be previewed through Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/NurtureShock-New-T...ader_0446504130)
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#448113 - 03/25/11 06:29 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
cyanide Offline


Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 38
Loc: USA
A friend of mine from Germany has told me that there is a huge problem in Germany with the Turkish people exactly for those reasons.

I disagree with the fact of immigrants having to accept ethical-political normality in a new country. To accept something normally entails embracing something with favor. I myself do not favor many politically or ethically acceptable public norms in this country and I was born and raised here. However, I do agree with the idea of 'live with it or get out.'

Quote:
Just they should recognize that they move here, they play by OUR rules. It pisses me off seeing people fly the flags of Puerto Rico or Mexico, but never an American flag even alongside with them.


I am an American because I was born and raised in the United States. But I don't take enough pride in this nation to want to fly the American flag. This country is simply my domicile. Were I to move to another country, unless it is required by law, I wouldn't fly their flag either.

I more so have a problem with immigrants coming here illegally and breaking our laws so they can have an easy and/or free ride as you mentioned.

And it's just a thought but I'd like to point out that we as Americans all too often criticize others for not assimilating to our standards and culture (or lack of). But a lot of Americans are not the most respectful persons of others standards and cultures when in their countries.

I don't like double standards.
_________________________
Polluters plague the world with two things: trash and laziness.

"I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions." -George Carlin

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#448170 - 03/26/11 02:40 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: cyanide]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
When I worked in Germany I was living in a Turkish neighborhood. They were nice and their donners were delicious. I definitely noticed how much attention the Turk immigration was on the news while I was there. But overall, they seemed to integrate well. But I am not German and my time there was limited.

It was nice living in a Turkish neighborhood because they could relate with me as being an immigrant as well.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#448177 - 03/26/11 05:50 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Discipline]
cyanide Offline


Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 38
Loc: USA
Well thank you. It could be like the stereotype of Mexicans in the US. Not that there is not a problem with Mexican immigrants however it tends to be exaggerated.


Edited by cyanide (03/26/11 05:52 PM)
_________________________
Polluters plague the world with two things: trash and laziness.

"I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions." -George Carlin

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#448206 - 03/27/11 04:42 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
Nammu Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 10/18/09
Posts: 399
Loc: Pacific NW
Muslims move in next door? I'll adopt many dogs. Black dogs at that. coopdevil

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#448219 - 03/27/11 09:54 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Nammu]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
And potbellied pigs!
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#448274 - 03/28/11 04:12 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
Furrtiv Offline


Registered: 10/04/08
Posts: 112
Loc: Derbyshire, England
Have plenty of lovely barbeques! smile

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#448414 - 03/30/11 09:06 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8262
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#448426 - 03/31/11 11:17 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Phineas]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11547
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: Phineas

You KNOW it's bad when even The 700 Club has a valid segment on the topic!
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

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#448490 - 04/01/11 05:48 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Bill_M]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11547
Loc: New England, USA
While on this topic, here's part 1 of a 5-part video from Robert Spencer (creator of JihadWatch.org), "The Myth of Islamic Tolerance and Peaceful Coexistence"

_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
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#449253 - 04/11/11 11:00 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
SINClair Offline


Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 320
Loc: Europe
Multiculturalism has only become an issue recently, when the Muslim species started spreading over the Western World, bombing everywhere and literally taking over, every other culture and every other nationality existant in whichever given Western country.

Europe and America, have always had immigrants from Africa and China, all throughout civilised history, yet "multiculturalism" is a term that has probably only entered the dictionary in the past decade.

Multiculturalism was never an issue, before the Muslim specimen came into the picture.

I personally think that if you want to be a Muslim, if you want to wear a rag over your head, praise Allah and you want everyone else around you to do as you do, then you should stay in a country where everyone else around you, do as you do, and not move somewhere where everyone does the opposite as you do.

_________________________
"Wer Nichts Wagt, Kann Nichts Verlieren"

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#449254 - 04/11/11 11:06 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: SINClair]
SINClair Offline


Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 320
Loc: Europe
The same goes to those people who become patriots, the minute they move to another country. If they like the place they were born at so fucking much, if they think the place they were born at is so fucking wonderful, why don't they pack up those flags and fly the fuck back there?

Again, there was nothing wrong with multiculturalism, until the Muslim species came in the picture. And as far as that's concerned, I have already stated my opinion elsewhere in this forum, at this rate, they will take over the world in just a couple more decades.
_________________________
"Wer Nichts Wagt, Kann Nichts Verlieren"

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#449403 - 04/13/11 06:17 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Phineas]
Lordrandom Offline


Registered: 08/13/10
Posts: 8
Loc: England
Originally Posted By: Phineas
So if immigrants can bring to their new countries different clothing styles why forbid Muslim women to wear burkas?

Security. Plain and simple. When you have a religion that harbors members that are Hell bent on destroying the Western world it makes no sense to have members of said religion walking around in Halloween costumes, covering their faces. It is a potential threat, and the country these people have come to has the right and obligation to provide security for its citizens.

If they don't like it, too bad. They are welcome to go back to their countries of origin that, by the way, insist foreigners obey their standards of dress.

http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/articles/2009-Summer/full-Bachrach.html


Would you care to elaborate on how they pose a threat to security?

And in regards to your comments about them going back home what about second or third generation immigrants? How can they "go back home" if they are already in the only home they've ever known?

Personally I view immigrants with the same standards I would like set for myself, I would resist against anyone who tried to pin a dress code on me so I think it would be wrong to apply it to immigrants.
_________________________
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#449405 - 04/13/11 06:30 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Lordrandom]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8262
Would you care to elaborate on how they pose a threat to security?

No. If the world events of the last ten years are not sufficient evidence, nothing I elaborate on will get through to you.


And in regards to your comments about them going back home what about second or third generation immigrants? How can they "go back home" if they are already in the only home they've ever known?

Semantics. Pointless argument.


Personally I view immigrants with the same standards I would like set for myself, I would resist against anyone who tried to pin a dress code on me so I think it would be wrong to apply it to immigrants.

How very Christian of you.
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#449411 - 04/13/11 07:52 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Lordrandom]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 992
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: Lordrandom
Personally I view immigrants with the same standards I would like set for myself, I would resist against anyone who tried to pin a dress code on me so I think it would be wrong to apply it to immigrants.


"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." - George Bernard Shaw
_________________________


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#449425 - 04/13/11 09:17 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Lordrandom]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11547
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: Lordrandom
Personally I view immigrants with the same standards I would like set for myself,

See Satanic Sin #3.

Quote:
I would resist against anyone who tried to pin a dress code on me so I think it would be wrong to apply it to immigrants.

See Satanic Rule of the Earth #3.

Particular cultures typically have unwritten codes of behavior, and this often extends to dress. While you can try to fall back on "I have a right to wear whatever I want!", it's extremely stupid to knowingly wear something that will provoke a shocked reaction and then try to play the victim card when it happens.

One example of an unwritten no-no here in the west is wearing a mask in public. Unless it's Halloween, it causes feelings of unease and suspicion with other people. Similarly, you also can't have a gang of your friends run into a bank wearing ski masks, and then after you cause an outrage, try to defend yourself in the name of fashion.

It would be one thing if the burqua was a type of shoe or trinket, but it's not. It's a mask. And when you have a demographic of people who have been known to cause a disproportionate amount of terrorism, it's really not a good idea to let them wear masks in public, let alone (as some of them tried to push for) their drivers' license!

Getting back to the original topic, there are Muslims who understandably expect westerners to conform to their dress code when they're in a Muslim country, however at the same time they don't feel obligated to conform to western dress when they're in the west. They have a vision of totalitarianism, plain and simple.
_________________________
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http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
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#449462 - 04/14/11 11:23 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Bill_M]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: Bill_M


Particular cultures typically have unwritten codes of behavior, and this often extends to dress. While you can try to fall back on "I have a right to wear whatever I want!", it's extremely stupid to knowingly wear something that will provoke a shocked reaction and then try to play the victim card when it happens.

One example of an unwritten no-no here in the west is wearing a mask in public. Unless it's Halloween, it causes feelings of unease and suspicion with other people. Similarly, you also can't have a gang of your friends run into a bank wearing ski masks, and then after you cause an outrage, try to defend yourself in the name of fashion.

It would be one thing if the burqua was a type of shoe or trinket, but it's not. It's a mask. And when you have a demographic of people who have been known to cause a disproportionate amount of terrorism, it's really not a good idea to let them wear masks in public, let alone (as some of them tried to push for) their drivers' license!

Getting back to the original topic, there are Muslims who understandably expect westerners to conform to their dress code when they're in a Muslim country, however at the same time they don't feel obligated to conform to western dress when they're in the west. They have a vision of totalitarianism, plain and simple.


I think the comparison to a ski mask is quite apt, as it demonstrates why a burqa is different from a turban, a necklace, a bracelet, a shirt, magic underwear, pants, a robe, or a dress.

Likewise, I don't think it would unfair to prohibit a Sikh from carrying his kirpan, or dagger, in areas where wielding similar types of weapons is already prohibited.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#449494 - 04/14/11 04:09 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: TrojZyr]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8262
Magic underwear? We need to talk! grin
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#449505 - 04/14/11 07:29 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Bill_M]
Lordrandom Offline


Registered: 08/13/10
Posts: 8
Loc: England
Originally Posted By: SINClair
Multiculturalism has only become an issue recently, when the Muslim species started spreading over the Western World, bombing everywhere and literally taking over, every other culture and every other nationality existant in whichever given Western country.


1)Islam is not a species

2)It is wrong to attribute the actions of terrorist groups to every Muslim out there.

3)Your claim that Islam is trying to subdue all over cultures is very dramatic but I don’t see it reflected in the facts, I won’t deny that there is a sizable group of people who do want other culture’s to die out but I don’t think you can call all Muslims as one big anti-everything else wave.

Honestly, this is the sort of rubbish I’d expect the BNP to come up with.


Originally Posted By: Bill_M
Originally Posted By: Lordrandom
Personally I view immigrants with the same standards I would like set for myself,

See Satanic Sin #3.

Quote:
I would resist against anyone who tried to pin a dress code on me so I think it would be wrong to apply it to immigrants.

See Satanic Rule of the Earth #3.


I can see what you are getting at but once an immigrant has gained his or her citizenship than public spaces just as much their lair as it is the lair of already residing inhabitants, thus I don’t believe that rule 3 applies here (though as a rule I do love it)

Originally Posted By: Bill_M

Particular cultures typically have unwritten codes of behavior, and this often extends to dress. While you can try to fall back on "I have a right to wear whatever I want!", it's extremely stupid to knowingly wear something that will provoke a shocked reaction and then try to play the victim card when it happens.

One example of an unwritten no-no here in the west is wearing a mask in public. Unless it's Halloween, it causes feelings of unease and suspicion with other people. Similarly, you also can't have a gang of your friends run into a bank wearing ski masks, and then after you cause an outrage, try to defend yourself in the name of fashion.


I agree that you have a point there but I still don’t believe that burqa’s need to be included in that. I might be in the minority but I’ve never felt uneasy or suspicious when I’ve seen someone wearing a burqa.
Originally Posted By: Bill_M

let alone (as some of them tried to push for) their drivers' license!


Someone really tried that? I can’t believe someone was stupid enough to think that would actually be allowed

Originally Posted By: Bill_M

Getting back to the original topic, there are Muslims who understandably expect westerners to conform to their dress code when they're in a Muslim country, however at the same time they don't feel obligated to conform to western dress when they're in the west. They have a vision of totalitarianism, plain and simple.



To those people I agree, your comments are entirely justified and I support them.

Originally Posted By: Phineas

How very Christian of you.

Its a good thing I've never be graded on Satanism, I'd probably do terribly at the moment (I do plan to do more reading, wonder if there is such thing as a Satanist mentor)


Edited by Lordrandom (04/14/11 07:30 PM)
_________________________
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#449529 - 04/14/11 11:36 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Phineas]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: Phineas
Magic underwear? We need to talk! grin


MAGIC UNDERWEAR!
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#449549 - 04/15/11 09:10 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: TrojZyr]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8262
You call that magic undies? We all have seen that, that's never been magic underwear, that's itchy underwear. Here I thought you had an inside scoop on something truly divine.

Very disappointing....
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#449554 - 04/15/11 10:16 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Lordrandom]
SINClair Offline


Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 320
Loc: Europe
And you sound yourself like one of those white, Muslim converts.


In that case, and as I see you are in England, go to Whitechapel High St in London, and stay there.

I am not going to argue with any pro-Islam.
_________________________
"Wer Nichts Wagt, Kann Nichts Verlieren"

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#449616 - 04/15/11 10:05 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Lordrandom]
CoffinRust Offline
CoS Priest

Registered: 01/07/03
Posts: 2137
Loc: Alabama
Originally Posted By: Lordrandom
(I do plan to do more reading, wonder if there is such thing as a Satanist mentor)

Do more reading, and let the books be your "mentors."
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#449636 - 04/16/11 06:32 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: CoffinRust]
Entity Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 03/23/02
Posts: 1773
Loc: Avalon UK
Quote:
"(I do plan to do more reading, wonder if there is such thing as a Satanist mentor)".

Do more reading, and let the books be your "mentors."


A further suggestion: Emulate the strategies of exceptional individuals who have gained influence and success in the real world.
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Nothing is better than to live according to one's taste. - François Villon

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#449720 - 04/17/11 11:22 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Lordrandom]
SINClair Offline


Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 320
Loc: Europe
By the way. Even those born in England, still only go to Muslim schools, and only buy from Muslim shops, etc. So what do you mean by "this" is all they know? "This" what?
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#449831 - 04/18/11 04:32 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
Darkelf 21 Offline


Registered: 04/18/11
Posts: 2
I absolutely agree with you on this point. It's what helped me identify myself as a Satanist. I believe i myself,actually defy most stereotypes. I love my puerto rican culture, but my Race is Satanist, my religion Laveyan. I was SUPPOSED to listen to rap and Salsa music as a child,but i preferred the sounds of Slayer, Iron maiden, and Venom. I was supposed to great at baseball, i elected to master a bass guitar. I was never in the "IN" crowd, they bored me to death and so i was outcasted as a coconut( Brown outside, white inside) and to that i say whatever! I'm a satanist, so i have the freedom to create my own culture. And that's why i LOVE who i am. Most of them can't say that!

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#449908 - 04/19/11 07:51 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Darkelf 21]
cyanide Offline


Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 38
Loc: USA
Satanism isn't a race it's a religion. As a fellow Puerto Rican, I must say I cannot stand the stereotypes of being 'boriqua'. However stereotypes do not define people; they are simply general truths about an ethnicity's culture.

Being enlightened period gives people the freedom to make their own culture.

I personally don't give a damn about Puerto Rican culture because I never allowed Race to affect my habits or personality. But that's not relevant to this thread now is it?
cool
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#449910 - 04/19/11 08:11 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: SINClair]
cyanide Offline


Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 38
Loc: USA
That is a very sad and disturbing fact indeed. But it holds true in places here in the US as well. Not only for Muslims but for many religions and races.
_________________________
Polluters plague the world with two things: trash and laziness.

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#449917 - 04/19/11 09:28 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: cyanide]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
Satanism isn't a race it's a religion

He isn't the first to draw that comparison.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#449942 - 04/20/11 06:39 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
cyanide Offline


Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 38
Loc: USA
To me it's not an accurate comparison.

Your race is what you are regardless if it you want it to be or not; it is a background that you cannot change about yourself.

'Satanist' is a label we have chosen for ourselves based on our ideology in comparison to that of LaVey's.

If someone claims to be on the left hand path, but does things that prove they are following the right hand path, then they are not a Satanist.

Anyone can go against all of the stereotypes of their race to try and prove that they are not of that certain race. It doesn't change a damn thing.

But I believe we are straying way off topic here... smile



Edited by cyanide (04/21/11 08:32 AM)
_________________________
Polluters plague the world with two things: trash and laziness.

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#449943 - 04/20/11 07:26 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: cyanide]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
Anyone can go against all of the stereotypes of their race to try and prove that they are not of that certain race. It doesn't change a damn thing.

I agree.

Your race is what you are regardless if it you want it to be or not; it is a background that you cannot change about yourself.

This could be said to be the comparison being drawn - that Satanists are born, not made - but really, I believe the intention Dr. LaVey had in his comparison is that your birth race becomes of little importance compared to your self-identity as a Satanist. Biological race is ignored among fellow Satanists, and the insider/outsider mentality is very much at play - not dissimilar from the mentality practiced by numerous racial groups.

But I believe we are straying way off topic here

I somehow doubt anyone will fuss with me about topic drift.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#449947 - 04/20/11 09:12 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
cyanide Offline


Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 38
Loc: USA
Well since you are a moderator, you're right; no one will likely fuss with you.

Quote:
This could be said to be the comparison being drawn - that Satanists are born, not made - but really, I believe the intention Dr. LaVey had in his comparison is that your birth race becomes of little importance compared to your self-identity as a Satanist. Biological race is ignored among fellow Satanists, and the insider/outsider mentality is very much at play - not dissimilar from the mentality practiced by numerous racial groups.


Now there sir you have an excellent point.

But because I have little regards for a person's race and more regards for how and what they think, believe, and act on, I just don't draw the comparison between what does not affect or define these aspects to what does. Hence my lack of comparing Race to Satanism (or any religion for that matter). But that is my opinion.

Then again Satanism is in fact a religion and not a race no matter how many people might draw comparisons between the two. Therefore, I believe my original comment is justified.

Of course, if I am by some chance wrong, then please correct me sir.
_________________________
Polluters plague the world with two things: trash and laziness.

"I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions." -George Carlin

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#449948 - 04/20/11 09:52 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: cyanide]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
Then again Satanism is in fact a religion and not a race no matter how many people might draw comparisons between the two.

It's a true statement, but it's also missing the point. It is not intended to be taken as a serious statement of "Upon reading the Satanic Bible I ceased to be a white guy and am now racially Satanic."

I began writing a full explanation, but quickly realized I could easily write a novella length essay on the subject, and it would nevertheless be wasted effort.

The shorter version: Yes, Satanism is a religion. However, we differ from other religions. There is no conversion to Satanism any more than you can convert to being Korean. You are, or you ain't, and if you ain't, we don't want to see you try. There are few things more disgusting than the Satanic version of a "wigger."
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#449950 - 04/20/11 10:08 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Zsche Offline



Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 158
Loc: Where the 5.56 casings fall...
Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
There are few things more disgusting than the Satanic version of a "wigger."


Priest Hagen von Tronje - this is going down as one of my all time favorite quotes.

Thank you.

Hail Satan!
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Phineas
My suggestion to you, besides obtaining a copy of The Satanic Bible and reading it, is to immerse yourself in the information contained at the Church of Satan website.

Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
You can't guzzle whiskey and pinch pretty ladies' asses when you're dead.

Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster
Love life. Live life. Don't fuck with people unnecessarily. Don"t let other people fuck with you. Simple guidelines that that will help you to make informed, intelligent and Satanic decisions.

Originally Posted By: Callier
Constructive criticism is one thing but people that just point blank tell others what they should be doing with their lives without any kind of permission can eat a bag of hairy balls.

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#449953 - 04/20/11 11:09 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: cyanide]
Darkelf 21 Offline


Registered: 04/18/11
Posts: 2
Again, the beauty of satanism is being an individual. I CHOOSE to name my race Satanist. I CHOOSE to love the Rican culture. It serves me. I understand your point as well. As you stated, Being enlightened period gives people the freedom to make their own culture. I've made mine, and i'm more than content. i made my comment with the point, i'm happy, i enjoy my life. It's not up for debate, it's my world, i enjoy it! HS!

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#449961 - 04/20/11 12:55 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: cyanide]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11547
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: cyanide
Your race is what you are regardless if it you want it to be or not; it is a background that you cannot change about yourself.

Congratulations, you just described how most Satanists view their identity with Satanism.

Originally Posted By: cyanide
Then again Satanism is in fact a religion and not a race no matter how many people might draw comparisons between the two. Therefore, I believe my original comment is justified.

Of course, if I am by some chance wrong, then please correct me sir.

Read Anton LaVey's essay "A Plan", from Satan Speaks. Look up "race" in the dictionary and compare the definitions to "ethnicity". While you have your dictionary open, look up "metaphor".
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

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#449970 - 04/20/11 02:12 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Bill_M]
cyanide Offline


Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 38
Loc: USA
smile

I am well aware of the definitions of the three words and I have read Satan Speaks several times. We are not required to agree with every comment or comparison the good Doctor makes. Or each other on this forum for that matter. Although LaVey does not make a direct comparison of the two, I do agree it is a comparison never the less; one of the few with which I do not agree.

I stated a fact and a reason why I don't agree with the metaphor made.

Whether or not someone agrees with me or not is not a concern of mine as I am not breaking any rules by stating that opinion.

Yes, we are born Satanists. I'm fully aware that people don't convert to Satanism.

A Satanist is who I am not what I am.

Human and my race are what I am.

Race does not exemplify who I am.




Edited by cyanide (04/21/11 09:06 AM)
_________________________
Polluters plague the world with two things: trash and laziness.

"I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions." -George Carlin

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#450012 - 04/21/11 02:40 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: cyanide]
SatAnonymous Offline


Registered: 11/27/10
Posts: 85
Loc: Nowhere over the rainfall.
Originally Posted By: cyanide
A Satanist is who I am not what I am.


Using 'epithets' is not the best way to become an individual imo.
Always when people say something about themselves, they get closed to a 'box' (eg. "I am christian. -> I don't do 'bad' things."). And if you ask them why are they christian and what is bad, you get into an endless conversation of definitions.
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#450026 - 04/21/11 08:29 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: SatAnonymous]
cyanide Offline


Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 38
Loc: USA
And you are absolutely right. We are Satanists and proud of it but that doesn't mean we wear that as a title along with our names. I am capable of describing myself without having to tack on the sentence 'I am a Satanist'. Those who feel the need to are the ones who will close themselves in a box sir.


Edited by cyanide (04/21/11 08:45 AM)
_________________________
Polluters plague the world with two things: trash and laziness.

"I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions." -George Carlin

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#450259 - 04/24/11 02:18 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
Ashtar Offline


Registered: 02/25/08
Posts: 27
Loc: Ontario, Canada
I don't mind being called intolerant. To be absolutely tolerant of everything isn't desirable in my eyes. I don't wish to tolerate insults or oppression towards women like that.

I think to some degree everyone is racist, and to some minor degrees it wouldn't be a bad thing (for example: it's logical to wear more sunscreen if you're pale, it's logical to get more sun if you lack vitamin D supplements if you're dark) but I do largely see it as a flaw and do find it an insult, and it's obviously wrong to say this on the basis of not respecting their hijab or whatever the fashion is called. That would be culturalism or dressism, something like that. I think a lot of people of Arabic heritage look quite attractive, I just don't like their hatred of skin.
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#450290 - 04/24/11 10:01 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Ashtar]
SINClair Offline


Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 320
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Ashtar
I don't mind being called intolerant. To be absolutely tolerant of everything isn't desirable in my eyes. I don't wish to tolerate insults or oppression towards women like that.



It is not only the male's oppression against females(in fact, the females themselves believe to be unquestionably inferior to males), practised amongst Muslims and how genders are viewed by Muslims, that is outrageous and just down-right barbaric, it is everything else about them altogether. Their entire mind-set. I'd go as far as indeed saying it is very likely biological also.

The Muslim must have a different biological structure to all other members of the human race in the planet, who have evolved with time, to make them an exception among its kind.

The Muslim have not evolved along with time, like all other members of the human race. That fact makes them a species of its own.

They seem to be sub-humans and I would place a heavy bet on it being possibly a fact that could be proved if research is conducted on the species.
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#450319 - 04/25/11 01:27 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: SINClair]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11547
Loc: New England, USA
You don't seem to have much of a clue on how biological evolution works.

Originally Posted By: SINClair
The Muslim have not evolved along with time, like all other members of the human race. That fact makes them a species of its own.

You are misusing the verb "evolve" here to simultaneous mean two different things: the actual biological meaning of the word, and as a general synonym for growth/development. Granted, totalitarians who want to cling to Sharia law are quite backwards and deluded if they think they can change the Western world. From a sociology standpoint, they are certainly several centuries behind those of us who've grown beyond systems like that. But it's completely ridiculous to think that conformity to an ideology makes them a separate biological species.

Quote:
They seem to be sub-humans and I would place a heavy bet on it being possibly a fact that could be proved if research is conducted on the species.


Actually, reality disproves your hypothesis. First of all, there have been people who were born into Muslim families and raised Muslim, but ended up dumping Islam and converting to something else when they got older. Surely, you're not so ignorant of biology that you think a single, individual organism can change its own species within its lifetime, do you? Because that's not how evolution works.

Even if we did go along with the silly assumption that having Islam as a religion was a purely genetic thing, there are Muslims who've fornicated with non-Muslims and have produced fertile offspring. So the mere existence of people with fully-functioning reproductive systems and only one parent who was a Muslim, shows that Muslims can't be a different biological species. Osama bin Laden, King Abdullah, the Pope, you, me, and Hannah Montana are all homo sapiens.

Really, I can't believe I have to explain this.
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#450321 - 04/25/11 01:33 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Bill_M]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Originally Posted By: Bill_M


Really, I can't believe I have to explain this.


This is an extreme case of a phenomenon that is all too common; namely, the use of a model in one science to answer a question in another branch of science. I would wager that, since the 1970's, the most abused is particle physics.

Of course, that is making the generous leap that the post in question is using a model from biology to answer to a sociology issue.
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#450331 - 04/25/11 03:03 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Bill_M]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Well, and when looking at any group or race of people, you have to realize that multiple factors went into making those people who they are today.

If the Middle East were a lush green rain forest, or if the Ottoman Empire hadn't collapsed, or if somebody had had the good sense to bash Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab's head in with a rock, most of our kvetching right now would likely revolve around Christians or, say, Scientologists, instead.
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#450385 - 04/26/11 11:19 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11547
Loc: New England, USA
Quote:
This is an extreme case of a phenomenon that is all too common; namely, the use of a model in one science to answer a question in another branch of science. I would wager that, since the 1970's, the most abused is particle physics.

Or rather, just ignorantly misrepresenting science so that it can be used to vaguely support some philosophy. That does happen a lot these days with particle physics and quantum mechanics, especially in the New-Age movement. It makes about as much sense as saying "I went on a blind date, and we just didn't have the chemistry. She must be made of different elements from the periodic table!"

Though speaking of Islam, science, and ignorance, I'm reminded of a popular trend I see among fundamentalist Muslims. It's the desperate attempt to fit lines of the Koran into scientific discoveries. They'll claim that the Koran is not only scientifically accurate, but amazingly "foretold" things like blood cells or the Big Bang years before science discovered them, and that this of course "proves" the divinity of the Koran. In reality, it's just stretching the meaning of a poetic passage and trying to match it up with something after-the-fact:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/
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#450386 - 04/26/11 11:27 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Bill_M]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8823
Originally Posted By: Bill_M
It's the desperate attempt to fit lines of the Koran into scientific discoveries. They'll claim that the Koran is not only scientifically accurate, but amazingly "foretold" things like blood cells or the Big Bang years before science discovered them, and that this of course "proves" the divinity of the Koran. In reality, it's just stretching the meaning of a poetic passage and trying to match it up with something after-the-fact:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/


What is amusing are the counter-answers from Hindu scholars who can claim with far more justification that the ancient Hindus actually did foretell many scientific discoveries.

Can't find one now, but there are some great side-by-side tables Hindus have posted online with assorted Quranic and Vedic quotes, with the associated claims of scientific foreshadowing, and man, are they hilarious.

grin
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#450406 - 04/26/11 12:37 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Quaark]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11547
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: Daark
What is amusing are the counter-answers from Hindu scholars who can claim with far more justification that the ancient Hindus actually did foretell many scientific discoveries.

And the sad thing is, the Vedas are at least 1,000 years older than the Koran. I guess having those extra centuries of accumulated human knowledge didn't help Muhammad.

Hindus have also tried deriving math tricks out of the Vedas:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_math
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#450410 - 04/26/11 12:46 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Bill_M]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Did you guys ever have the Natural Law Party? They ran in at least one federal election up here, in the early '90s. I just remember their "national defense strategy" involved Vedic math, quantum mechanics, and a psychic shield of universal well-wishing that would disincline anyone from bombing us.
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#450411 - 04/26/11 12:53 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: reprobate]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11547
Loc: New England, USA
I hadn't heard of them myself, but a quick search on the web shows that the US did in fact have such a party.
http://www.natural-law.org/
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#450418 - 04/26/11 01:34 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Bill_M]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Hilarious! They'll reduce crime by teaching everyone inner harmony through yogic flying. Outstanding. Thanks for the link!
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#450504 - 04/27/11 10:02 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Bill_M]
SINClair Offline


Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 320
Loc: Europe
laugh

Whether they were born Muslim, or converted later in life, the way their minds operate, must result in their bodies producing some sort of chemical response, that as a cycle, makes them a different species, from all other humans.

This chemical response of their bodies, to their minds, even produce a distinct stench, a terribly bad odour, that only a member of the Muslim species expel through their pores.

Again, I am pretty sure that if a research was conducted on this, the Muslim would indeed classify as a different species, of some sort of sub-human variety.

In any case, Islamism is far, very far from being merely a religion. It is a religion, a political system, an ideology and as I am sure it will eventually be proved by science, a race of its own also.
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#450520 - 04/27/11 06:57 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: SINClair]
Clio Offline


Registered: 04/20/11
Posts: 7
SINClair, you do not seem to understand the concept of a species, which is defined as 2 individuals being capable of reproducing with one another to produce fertile offspring. As a muslim is perfectly capable of reproducing with any other human they choose to - producing viable offspring - your argument that you are "pretty sure that... the Muslim would indeed classify as a different species" is not only laughable but it also demonstrates your ignorance to extremely basic concepts of evolutionary biology.

Please do your research before throwing around such ideas.

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#450523 - 04/27/11 07:06 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: SINClair]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
All Muslims? Even East Asian and African Muslims?

What about Arab Christians? How do they smell compared to the Arab Muslims?

What about the lily-white numbnuts who decide to become jihadists?

Well, and what's the "chemical" or "biological" difference between, say, a member of the Westboro Baptist Church, or a fundamentalist Christian abortion clinic bomber, and a Muslim jihadist--especially when their stated goals and "testimonials" share multiple points in common? How is the jihadist different from the Maoist or the Nazi?


Edited by TrojZyr (04/27/11 07:16 PM)
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#450525 - 04/27/11 07:34 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: TrojZyr]
Zaftig Offline
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Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
I don't know about Muslims but Satanists smell like pure animal magnetism...with a hint of burning sulfur. coopdevil

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#450530 - 04/27/11 08:18 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
RoyceDavis Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 11/15/10
Posts: 133
Loc: Ukiah, Ca. US
Multiculturalism... In a world where culture is so intertwined with race, and racism is bad (if you're white) how can we ever expect to have multiple cultures living close together?

The problem isn't culture, it's not even really race, it's religion. Everyone's religion says they are right and chosen by god to destroy the infidels. How can that person live among people he is taught to hate?

Sure, many christian off-shoots are backing down on the killing the infidel, but they still carry the book and harbor the feelings, they still pray for those they don't like to 'see the light'. Even a shadow of confused hatred will cause turmoil.

In order for multiple cultures to exist, there would have to be a government that lacks religious and moral dogma lurking behind their laws, and they would have to re-work or ditch the welfare system.

The entire idea of race-anything makes me want to puke my guts out, and it's only an accident that race has anything to do with culture. We are all racist. When all the doors are closed and we're alone, we will laugh at a good racist joke, just like everyone else. Humans will NEVER not find humor in making generalized statements about differences between us. Race is an accident of birth, why not find the humor in it? And why do we use it as such a badge?

The real keys to successful multi-culturalism lies in questions as of yet unanswered:

1. Is religion part of culture?
2. Is race part of culture?

Not to mention the fact that those people who follow a shell of their religion are wasting their time anyway, if you can't follow the ideals and beliefs of your chosen religion, find a new one, don't move to a new country and hope the locals are too naive to notice you're an infidel.
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#450532 - 04/27/11 08:23 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: RoyceDavis]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8262
There is another factor to successful multiculturalism: it must occur naturally, and not by government edict or artificial social construct.
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#450551 - 04/28/11 12:25 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: SINClair]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1812
Loc: Denmark
I thought only muslim leaders had race and religion confused, and in their case (the Cairo declaration, Durban I and II etc.) I think most intelligent people recognize that their claim that criticism against islam is racism is only political manoeuvring.

Since you think that science would find something based on your theory, let's look at how it stands up to the scientific method.

In general I would say that you are, as noted sceptic Dr. Steve Novella once said "Making the logical fallacy of pulling it out of your ass as you go along" smile

Science deals with explanation of observable facts, not validation of personal prejudices. So let's look at some of the observable fallacies.

Muslims smell - hasty generalisation. There are no widespread reports of this.

They smell because they are muslims - confusion of correlation and causation. We already have simpler theories that would explain why some people smell. So adding religion to the equation would complicate them. Something scientific method and Occam's razor suggest that we don't do.

Muslims are a different species - no observable evidence has so far been found, even with quite advanced research into DNA. The genetic problems observable in some areas with a high concentration of muslims can be explained by normal inbreeding, which is already well understood, even outside humans. So again, adding religion to the equation is not needed.

And of course, any scientific theory should be falsifiable and experiments should be repeatable. So far none of the muslims I have met have had any distinct odour or shown signs of being from a different species, so there is a high likelihood that your theory would meet with some difficulties in getting any widespread acceptance in the scientific community.

Not that I like muslims in particular, I just also dislike bad science and faulty logic.
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#450553 - 04/28/11 01:46 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
Nidhogg Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/18/06
Posts: 344
Loc: Alberta, Canada
I haven't been here in a long time. I think its been about three years.

One of my earliest posts to this board was on a thread similar to this. I came out on the anti multicultural side and pro race consciousness side and I was pretty much crucified for it. I revisited that thread and quite a few of my detractors, people that were messaging me calling me an idiot and oh noes a "racist" simply because I acknowledge racial difference and the connection between race and culture and yes even odour, now have quotes from Adolf Hitler(ha ha) in their signatures and a few of these detractors are posting on this thread on the antimulticulturalist side.
What a difference a few years can make! My position on this is the same as it was then.
Multiculturalism as policy is a failed experiment because it is forced and enforced against human nature.

HS! Its good to be back


Edited by Thyrn (04/28/11 01:47 AM)
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#450554 - 04/28/11 01:54 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: verszou]
SINClair Offline


Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 320
Loc: Europe
Blah, blah, blah.

Stop relating information that you have gathered from politically correct sources.

Give me your personal experience reports.
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#450555 - 04/28/11 02:10 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: SINClair]
Nidhogg Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/18/06
Posts: 344
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By: SINClair
Blah, blah, blah.

Stop relating information that you have gathered from politically correct sources.

Give me your personal experience reports.


Info from "politically incorrect" sources is often just as skewed.

Approach this from a Third Side perspective.
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#450556 - 04/28/11 02:16 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: TrojZyr]
SINClair Offline


Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 320
Loc: Europe
There are numerous differences between the Muslim and the Christian or the Jewish.

The Muslim do not respond to basic emotions, like every other humans, for example.

None of their structure is based on love or hate.

None of it is human.

They don't procreate out of love, they don't co-exist out of respect.

The reasons why they do all things all other humans do, are not human-like. And they don't feel human-like consequently either.
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#450557 - 04/28/11 02:23 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Nidhogg]
SINClair Offline


Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 320
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Thyrn
Originally Posted By: SINClair
Blah, blah, blah.

Stop relating information that you have gathered from politically correct sources.

Give me your personal experience reports.


Info from "politically incorrect" sources is often just as skewed.

Approach this from a Third Side perspective.



What?
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#450559 - 04/28/11 03:57 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: SINClair]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1812
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: SINClair
Blah, blah, blah.

Stop relating information that you have gathered from politically correct sources.


You seem to confuse basic logic with political correctness.

Logic does not have to be politically correct, it just need to have internal consistency - which is why the scientific method works.

Originally Posted By: SINClair

Give me your personal experience reports.


You talked about science and research. They do not deal with personal experience, that is called anecdotal evidence and is also a logical fallacy.

My personal experience, which was in fact included in my statement above has no scientific validity beyond establishing that your theory can be falsified, and that there is reason to believe that it would be.
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#450563 - 04/28/11 04:36 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
stoneco Offline


Registered: 04/28/11
Posts: 4
Spam. Deleted.


Edited by Daark (04/28/11 02:20 PM)

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#450565 - 04/28/11 07:01 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: SINClair]
cyanide Offline


Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 38
Loc: USA
If I could I would take a blood sample from my research mentor, a Muslim from Turkey, and my own blood sample and put them through NMR, IR, Raman spec, Gel Electrophoresis, Spectrophotometry, MEKC, light and electron microscopes, our microprobe, and our gene sequencer and I believe that asides from normal variables from person to person there would not be much of a difference in the genetic or molecular makeup of the two samples.

However, an experiment based on 'wanting to see if Muslims are a subhuman species' would more than likely get me kicked out of the university.

So instead I could guide you to do a search on pubmed, ACS, El Sevier, or Nature, and look up journal articles on genetic and molecular differences of blood samples from varying races, but I'm inclined to believe that there won't be much material.


Edited by cyanide (04/28/11 07:07 AM)
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#450566 - 04/28/11 07:35 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: cyanide]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1812
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: cyanide
If I could I would take a blood sample from my research mentor, a Muslim from Turkey, and my own blood sample and put them through NMR, IR, Raman spec, Gel Electrophoresis, Spectrophotometry, MEKC, light and electron microscopes, our microprobe, and our gene sequencer and I believe that asides from normal variables from person to person there would not be much of a difference in the genetic or molecular makeup of the two samples.


A very sound approach, except that the sample size is too small to conclude anything. Even though the original claim was stated in very black and white terms, you'd need a bigger sample size.

Also, by including your own blood and that of a person you already know, you introduce a bias to the experiment. You could have secret muslim sympathies, he might have religious doubts, in both cases you throw off the experiment because now you would both show up as the same.

So, we need randomly selected muslims, and randomly selected non-muslims greater numbers. And the you should not know beforehand which group is which.

Since the claim is also that this is progressive over time, we should follow up on the experiment at a later date to see if there is any change.

Alternatively there should be a separate study with the same setup on a group of newly converted muslims, followed over a number of years to see if there are any physical changes.

And of course this only takes into account the one part of the original claim, not the claim that there is a cause and effect relation between being a muslim and having a bad odour. So there is a need for a separate experiment there.
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#450568 - 04/28/11 08:14 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
Kernel Offline


Registered: 04/20/11
Posts: 71
Loc: Nothern Europe
Multiculturalism - It was talked about quite recently where I live in. In here, if you move here, you "sign" (by moving in) a contract to obey the law. It's quite a mess actually, because you on't have to know the law, and can still break it, and here comes the trouble. Let's say someone moves here from a country that is in a turmoil and has war on it's doorstep so to speak. Usually military and police in there are very visible and they attract the notice of the locals. So when these people move here, they don't see the same things and things are much more lax, they do not know our law, language, culture, nothing and here is the problem. They get away with almost anything, by shouting racist. It was in one forum that racist is a magic word that gives you anything in western countries. Maybe we should just get rid of the whole term if it causes so much trouble in our society, no matter where you are from.

Now to the points of the main post: I agree wholeheartedly. I do not care where they are from, as long as they even TRY to adjust in our way of living in PUBLIC I do not much care.

On example what truly works: I have this friend, her mother is from Russia, is an artist (And does she paint great!) and her father is a Doctor from somewhere in Africa. They work here, pay the taxes and enjoy the benefits of living in here. They do something for our society and have taken good care of things. They all have different cultural backgrounds, even religion, but it works, because when they moved here they accepted our culture and took it so that now it is their own. That I can respect.

About that experiment thing.. Aren't we all people? We have two eyes, a mouth, a nose, two hands, two legs etc. Of course it would be an interesting test, but what does it have to do with multiculturalism? What does it have to do with the thing that some people adjust better living in another country and some don't, that's psychology, not genetics.
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#450569 - 04/28/11 08:23 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: verszou]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
Quote:
And of course this only takes into account the one part of the original claim, not the claim that there is a cause and effect relation between being a muslim and having a bad odour.


Would you not also have to constitute what is a bad odour, in the first place? Foul by whose standards? If a foot fetishist prefers the delicate aroma of toes in nylon stockings, but another finds it nauseating, which highly subjective olfactory standard are you applying?

Although I applaud you for trying to provide a serious answer to a ridiculous suggestion, the entire premise stinks to high heaven. Or maybe it's just SINclair's upper lip?

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#450571 - 04/28/11 08:52 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: verszou]
cyanide Offline


Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 38
Loc: USA
It could not be used as a basis for any experiment. Going into great detail of how an experiment could be or should be done is not necessary. The point of the post is that various experiments COULD be done but I highly doubt the results would show SINclair's original claim. Using myself versus my Muslim mentor is viable because the original claim was that Muslims differ from any other human being. Obviously if actual, publishable, and legitimate research were to be conducted there would need to be random samples taken from a much broader population. Details about methodology, materials, sample sizes and numbers, statistics, and set up would need to be ironed out. That's not the point, especially as I said I would not be able to do the experiment even if I truly had interest in it.
There are never the less legal issues and 'ethics' I have to abide by in the science community. This type of experiment would be seen as discrimination as it is not testing for risk factors or statistics involved with a certain race but rather to test a 'prejudiced' notion that being a certain religion changes your chemical and genetic structure. It'd be the same as a member of the KKK doing experiments to prove caucasians are a superior being.

Personally, I don't have any sympathy for Muslims. I work with my professor because he is a brilliant researcher. And in science there is no need to bring up religion. I understand the distaste for the Muslim religion. But I don't deny they are human. After all I have more sympathy for our four legged furry friends than I do for any random human I meet.
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#450572 - 04/28/11 08:57 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Zaftig]
cyanide Offline


Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 38
Loc: USA
Thank you.

That is why I didn't even mention that part. Hygiene is a matter of choice and circumstance, not a genetic anomaly.

True people could sweat more often or eat foods that cause them to produce higher odors but they can also bathe more often.

Also it is not always possible to maintain hygiene, and standards of hygiene vary from country to country, region to region, and even *gasp* person to person.


Edited by cyanide (04/28/11 09:03 AM)
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#450573 - 04/28/11 09:20 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Zaftig]
Bruja Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 2054
Loc: Atlanta, GA.
Originally Posted By: Zaftig


Although I applaud you for trying to provide a serious answer to a ridiculous suggestion, the entire premise stinks to high heaven. Or maybe it's just SINclair's upper lip?


I wouldn't throw out that possibility at all. It warrants deeper scientific research, my dear Witch Zaftig. wink

He made some sound points, which unsurprisingly were dismissed and tossed out for making too much damn sense. I'd have to go with verszou's best quote on this one regarding most of SINclair's arguments…

In general I would say that you are, as noted sceptic Dr. Steve Novella once said "Making the logical fallacy of pulling it out of your ass as you go along"
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Bruja

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#450575 - 04/28/11 09:43 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Bruja]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8823
Tangent "away-from-gross-stupidity" alert (but still on the subject of multiculturalism).

The first time I met some Muslims in a social setting.

At my apartment complex years ago. The apartment next to mine had been vacant for a week. I noticed a young couple moving in, so I went outside to say hello, ya know, be neighborly.

Handsome couple, nicely dressed, and I guessed Pakistani. He in a business suit, her in a dress with a scarf.

Neither seemed pleased about my introducing myself. He was grudgingly accepting of my hello and shook my hand, but when I put out my hand to shake hers, they froze and glared at me.

We stood that way for a few seconds, then they went back to moving their boxes in as if I was not there, or another word.

The next day I got a call from the apartment manager, who said that he had called to complain that I had made sexual advances towards his wife.

WTF?

Luckily for me, the apartment manager was a born-again Christian redneck from the South, and after I explained that the "sexual advances" consisted of an offer to shake hands...

The manager then extracted a promise from me to call the FBI if I noticed anything suspicious from them.

grin

When Muslim men let me photograph their wives and let their kids play with my dogs, we'll talk about multiculturalism.

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#450577 - 04/28/11 10:32 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: SINClair]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Give me your personal experience reports.

I have lots of personal experience with Muslims that suggests you don't know what you're talking about.
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#450588 - 04/28/11 02:09 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Nidhogg]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Quote:
You seem to confuse basic logic with political correctness.

Logic does not have to be politically correct, it just need to have internal consistency - which is why the scientific method works.


Aye.

Not to mention, just as what is popular is not always right, what is unpopular is not necessarily right, either.

Chronological and emotional teenagers will regularly use negative reactions as metal detectors for truth and self-esteem, and then pat themselves on the back for being too edgy for the herd, when they're actually just too stupid for words.

Black sheep are still sheep.
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#450591 - 04/28/11 04:33 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: SINClair]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11547
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: SINClair
Whether they were born Muslim, or converted later in life, the way their minds operate, must result in their bodies producing some sort of chemical response, that as a cycle, makes them a different species, from all other humans.

As others have pointed out, it's pretty clear that you don't have much of any knowledge of biology and especially biological evolution, to put it nicely. In fact, you seem to make a general habit of relentlessly arguing topics you don't know much about. But that's another story.

Science has a reasonably clear definition of what constitutes a biological species. In general, two organisms are of the same species if they're genetically similar enough to mate and produce fertile offspring (see Wikipedia's page for a layman's overview of the topic). Changes in "some sort of chemical responses" that may go on within an organism, does not go so far as to change that individual organism's species. Otherwise, taking an aspirin or even watching a sad movie would change you to a "different species". That's not how it works.

So all we really need to do is find a human with a pair of biological grandparents of whom one was a Muslim, and the other one wasn't. This would immediately disprove your absurd claim that Muslims are different species from homo sapiens. Considering there are about 1.4 billion living Muslims on the planet, this shouldn't be too impossible.

Quote:
This chemical response of their bodies, to their minds, even produce a distinct stench, a terribly bad odour, that only a member of the Muslim species expel through their pores.

Let's assume that all of these juvenile assumptions of yours are genetically true (though they aren't). Do you consider Caucasian rural Christians, Chinese mountain-top Buddhists, and native African bushmen to be three distinctly different species? If no, then this begs the question of why the same reasoning that you apply to Muslims doesn't apply to these other groups. If yes, then once again, you have absolutely no clue what the term 'species' means, and you're ignorantly and dishonestly trying to change the definition.

Quote:
Again, I am pretty sure that if a research was conducted on this, the Muslim would indeed classify as a different species, of some sort of sub-human variety.

That's your own wishful thinking. Read a biology book.

Quote:
In any case, Islamism [sic] is far, very far from being merely a religion.

Even if you want to stretch the meaning of "Islam" to include additional ideologies, dress code, a form of government, etc., it's still completely unfounded and beyond ignorant to call it a new biological species. Nevermind the fact that Islam hasn't been around for more than 1500 years. That's hardly enough time to see the evolution of an entirely new hominid species.
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#450592 - 04/28/11 04:54 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: SINClair]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
I have about as much innate dislike of Muslims, Arabs, and the whole fucking shebang as anyone you'll meet.

Yet even I think this is a raging dumpster fire of stupidity.

I can say with some confidence that the average grade schooler understands biology better than you.
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#450593 - 04/28/11 05:00 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: cyanide]
SINClair Offline


Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 320
Loc: Europe
I don't think it is genetic nor molecular. I think it is a chemical response of the brain.

Would a chemical response of the brain, involve anything to do with molecules? No idea. Indeed, I do suck terribly at biology. BUT, me not knowing what a phenomenon is called, does not make the phenomenon any less real.
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#450594 - 04/28/11 05:12 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Nidhogg]
SINClair Offline


Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 320
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Thyrn
people that were messaging me calling me an idiot and oh noes a "racist" simply because I acknowledge racial difference and the connection between race and culture and yes even odour, now have quotes from Adolf Hitler(ha ha) in their signatures


Who is quoting Adolf Hitler in their signatures? Just curious.
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#450595 - 04/28/11 05:18 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Bill_M]
SINClair Offline


Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 320
Loc: Europe
Flippin' 'eck. This ain't the first time you keep a tap (or shall I say, a tag) on me. All that trouble. grin
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#450599 - 04/28/11 05:59 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Zaftig]
SINClair Offline


Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 320
Loc: Europe
The thing is. The poster I was replying to, is typing from Denmark, a country where the Muslim population is very small. What he/she said in the post, sounded like a conclusion taken upon reading articles on the subject. Articles written about Islam and/or Muslims, are always very, very carefully measured words. No one ever dares to question anything about Islam and Muslims, for fear of being called racists.

So you can read about Islam and the Muslims, but what you read about it, is bound to be limited information.

Now, when you are exposed to the subject, first hand, any subject for that matter, when you are exposed to it first hand, you may turn out to have a slightly different opinion. Such as my case, in this case.
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#450601 - 04/28/11 06:14 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: SINClair]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
I am consistently exposed to Muslims of all sorts, in a variety of ways (socially, academically, politically, personally). Perhaps more than almost anyone on this forum, barring those who live in Muslim countries. I would agree that discourse surrounding Islam is heavenly laden with apologetics, political correctness, and a misunderstanding of the historical precedents.

Your claims are still ridiculous.

To be clear: I am entirely unconcerned about whether or not you despise Muslims. That is your business.

What everyone is pointing out is that your arguments about biological differences are colossally stupid.

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#450604 - 04/28/11 06:40 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Zaftig]
SINClair Offline


Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 320
Loc: Europe
Of course you would all think my claim is stupid. I am merely brushing over the subject. In order to gain any agreements to my view, I'd have to elaborate on my hypothesis, and relate a number of scenarios which I have observed that led me to conclude as much. Fair enough indeed.

I am not going to bother however, because those who like to argue for the sake of practising debate skills, will argue against all given hypothesis. Hypothesis are generally the easiest of things to dispute.

In any case, if I remember correctly, I have read a post by you somewhere in these Forums some time ago, where you stated where you were from in America... I cannot recall where exactly, but I am pretty sure my memory isn't failing me, when it recalls that you hail from America.

Nowhere in America has a bigger Muslim population than some places here in the UK.

Unless you do some sort of work in a mosque.
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#450605 - 04/28/11 06:53 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: SINClair]
HellofallHells Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 3524
Quote:
Of course you would all think my claim is stupid. I am merely brushing over the subject. In order to gain any agreements to my view, I'd have to elaborate on my hypothesis, and relate a number of scenarios which I have observed that led me to conclude as much.


Oh, well, in that case please elaborate.
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#450606 - 04/28/11 07:04 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: SINClair]
cyanide Offline


Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 38
Loc: USA
To oversimplify this issue, normally a chemical change in the brain constitutes not only a feeling of emotion, but in extreme cases, a mental illness. These changes can happen in any human and as far as the emotions go, they happen on a daily basis.

When someone refers to something on the molecular level they are talking about the chemistry of that matter.

If you did not know that is fine, but as the moderators have pointed out already, you should not defend a point unless you truly understand what it is you are defending.
Just to let you know I SUCK at biology in my own opinion but I still look at what I have learned from biology courses and I still do research to be sure I do not defend a point I know nothing about.

I AM, however, a Chemist and I can tell you that a chemical change in the brain or anywhere in the body does not turn someone from being homo sapien into a different animal. It does perhaps make them a shitty excuse for a human, but still a human none the less. I agree that a lot of muslims have shit for emotions or brains, but I think people of any religion have that issue.
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#450607 - 04/28/11 07:07 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: HellofallHells]
SINClair Offline


Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 320
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: HellofallHells
Quote:
Of course you would all think my claim is stupid. I am merely brushing over the subject. In order to gain any agreements to my view, I'd have to elaborate on my hypothesis, and relate a number of scenarios which I have observed that led me to conclude as much.


Oh, well, in that case please elaborate.


Why did you choose to ignore this part:

Originally Posted By: SINClair


I am not going to bother however, because those who like to argue for the sake of practising debate skills, will argue against all given hypothesis. Hypothesis are generally the easiest of things to dispute.
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#450608 - 04/28/11 07:09 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: SINClair]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
I am from Canada. I live in one of the most ethnically diverse areas in North America.

I am also actively engaged in the academic study of religion. Islam is not my primary area of study, but I am engaged in discussions with colleagues who study Islam, have read texts, taken classes, attended lectures, and produced work on Islam. I have a particular interest in how the rhetoric of multiculturalism is framed as it relates to the polarizing concepts of demonization versus apologetics. I think both are rather flawed, and ignore the more base emotions at play.

Scenarios about stinky people you have met is not evidence of a separate biological species.

But now the dead horse is pleading to cease my beatings.

Here's something that you may understand:

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#450611 - 04/28/11 07:19 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: SINClair]
cyanide Offline


Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 38
Loc: USA
Any hypothesis can be proven null and void. That is the point of experimentation. I think it would be difficult for someone lacking a science background to attempt a credible experiment to prove what you'd like to prove. As there is no scientific evidence, which is the only way to prove this, you can be and have been proven wrong until further research is conducted.

Personal feelings against a group of people does not prove or justify opinions against cold hard facts.
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Polluters plague the world with two things: trash and laziness.

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#450612 - 04/28/11 07:21 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: SINClair]
HellofallHells Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 3524
Oops, silly me.
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#450613 - 04/28/11 07:23 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Zaftig]
cyanide Offline


Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 38
Loc: USA
smile Agreed!

The horse is beyond beaten to a pulp.

That is an adorable picture of a rabbit by the way!
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Polluters plague the world with two things: trash and laziness.

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#450616 - 04/28/11 08:00 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Zaftig]
SINClair Offline


Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 320
Loc: Europe
Ethnically diverse, you said. Not Muslim. Ethnically diverse means a variety of ethnicities. Not the single one in question, the Muslim. That was like referring to a group of Muslim people, as a multicultural group of people, when the Muslim consist of only one single culture, not several different cultures, to be called "multi".

You engage in discussions with people who study Islam, in other words, none of the parts chatting about what they read on books, have direct contact with these Muslim people, to have the slightest clue how they behave, how they live, what they are like.

You would need to spend some time around these people to conclude whether my claims have any foundation or not.

The picture of a rabbit with a pancake on its head is supposed to have any standard meaning, or you're just guessing that I would particularly get it? Well, it's completely off the wall, and if it is supposed to be funny, it's gotta be aimed at small minded folks, as they say, folks easy to amuse.
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#450617 - 04/28/11 08:10 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: SINClair]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8823
I stand in total awe of your epic inability to understand anything.

No matter how clearly explained.

It's quite impressive, actually.

Recent movie reference warning you won't get but others will.

It's like you've taken a handful of "anti-NZT".

Now, to all the people who are interacting in-depth with SINclair...

WHY?*

*This is not an official Mod admonition to cease, but a sincere query born of genuine curiosity!

wink
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T’aa hwo’ aaji t’eego.

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#450619 - 04/28/11 08:20 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Quaark]
SINClair Offline


Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 320
Loc: Europe
What is the point in jumping into a discussion, with nothing but personal attacks?

I think that is very childish.

What is so terribly wrong with me viewing the Muslim as a species of their own?

I am being civil whilst discussing my view.
_________________________
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#450627 - 04/28/11 09:46 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Quaark]
cyanide Offline


Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 38
Loc: USA
:] I just hate when people throw the word science into shit it has nothing to do with. But I agree that the horse is dead and there's no point in continuing to mutilate its remains.
_________________________
Polluters plague the world with two things: trash and laziness.

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#450629 - 04/28/11 11:13 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: SINClair]
Liberterius Offline


Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 241
Originally Posted By: SINClair
What is the point in jumping into a discussion, with nothing but personal attacks?

I think that is very childish.

What is so terribly wrong with me viewing the Muslim as a species of their own?

I am being civil whilst discussing my view.


What is so terribly wrong with me thinking the world is going to end in 2012?

What is so terribly wrong with me believing that the Reptilians have infiltrated our government at the highest level and are creating Reptile/Human hybrids as sleeper cells to activate when their invasion fleet arrives?

What is so terribly wrong with me thinking lead is good for my brain?

What is so terribly wrong with me believing in a giant invisible man in the sky with a long white beard and sandals who watches the lives of every human being and keeps score of their good deeds and sins?

Oh wait, because I can't support any of those things with scientific evidence! (Except the lizard people one. wink )

Really, ok SINClair, I disagree with Daark that you're a complete moron with whom we shouldn't interact.

BUT you're being very foolish on this topic, to put it mildly:
Muslims can reproduce to make fertile offspring with any other fertile human of the opposite gender.

That makes them the same species as us.

Do I find their culture, and a great many of them, to be bigoted, oppressive of women, irrational, violent, small-minded, and ineffectually tribal?

Hell yes.

But humans can convert to being Muslims, and Muslims can leave Islam. Both of those have happened many many millions of times.

By the way everyone, this has been a very good topic until these last couple pages about weird... supposed biology and sociology connections.

I know I started it so forgive my being quiet but trust me I've been lurking and found the discussion interesting!

I agree with Phineas that multiculturalism cannot be forced; the individuals forming the society must be willing to tolerate things the other people in their society say and do, within the extent of that being part of a civil culture...which is where we still may run into problems over who defines social etiquette, standards, and societal roles.

Personally, what I see as ideal is a cosmopolitan culture which allows females full freedom as men, allows any language, has loose clothing guidelines, (people can look at others weird but tolerate it) freedom of religion, sexual freedom, freedom of speech (including vulgarity) and laws, courts, and police strong enough to stop people from infringing on the rights of others in all these regards, and stop the power of violent gangs. (Something they could do better in many cities such as mine...)

Then I have my preferences of politics and what I consider personally to be good work and life ethic, but that's a topic for another day and much of it left to the individuals in the society

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#450630 - 04/28/11 11:17 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Zaftig]
Liberterius Offline


Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 241
By the way Zaftig...

http://images.quickblogcast.com/0/4/5/4/5/163698-154540/PC191912_edited.JPG

Also just to make this post actually constructive;

On the topic of race, I feel that religion > race > ethnicity.

Out of these, religion is most likely to affect peoples' behavior, both as individuals and as groups.

To many (FAR from all, or probably even most) religious people, especially in Western cultures, religion guides them a lot more in their choice of interaction and world-view more than perceived physical racial characteristics. I would cite that evangelical Christians and more radical Muslims simply don't talk about race or ethnicity all that much. Does that mean none of them are "racist?"

Certainly not, but it is NOT their primary means of identification; religion trumps it.

Why did I put "race" and "ethnicity" as different?

Race is more socially constructed and its the one easier with which to culturally identify; it isn't based purely on genetic bloodlines, but on strong cultural identification other than religion, though it also INCLUDES physical characteristics.

There is a fine line, but there is a line there.

For example, white Europeans could in many systems of categorization be considered a single ethnicity, but I would cite through most of their history (it has been weakened in the past 50 years or so) the European kingdoms and then nations and them empires were led by distinct races: the French, the Anglo-Saxons, (although not untied until late in the game)the Germans, the Russians. (no they're not all Slavs; many light skinned blonde haired Russians.)

Similarly, there is definitely a Japanese race and Jewish race which go stronger than ethnicity...I would go so far as to consider the Japanese race to be the "strongest" on the planet, in terms of unity of purpose, cohesion, and endurance. (The Japanese have been "Japanese," as a single people, with a single culture, for many centuries, and still have a strong united identity within their country, in no small part due to its ethnic homogeneity.)

Ethnicity is weaker...but may overpower race in some cases, for example in the US there is weakly a cultural "American race," and then ethnicities of very different culture and often language are stronger identifiers for people than that race. There is a shared American culture, and I don't mean just white dominated...and it makes a shared American race to some extent, but ethnicities within the US are greater identifiers still than an American race. (Though American nationality is different and far more commonly expressed with pride, though that alone doesn't make a race.)

As a Satanist, I do my hardest and generally succeed greatly in rising above the terms of race and nationality by which many judge each other; I am Myself and then a Satanist and THEN an American.

I judge others on their merit and actions; not their breeding. I'm not ashamed to admit that I also judge different cultures by the same standards as people and will criticize them and their followers as such; I can see many superior qualities in some cultures, in different points of time, over other cultures in their own points of time.

I do enjoy seeing many of the more neutral and trivial aspects of culture though, just for the interest factor and the variety of...things humans do.




Edited by Liberterius (04/28/11 11:43 PM)

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#450631 - 04/28/11 11:35 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Mind you, I'm perfectly fine with words like "breed," "type," and "species" being used METAPHORICALLY. But,that's not what's happening here.

I just take exception to the claim that Muslims somehow possess a greater capacity for shittiness than other human beings, when shittiness seems to be pretty well distributed across the whole human species.

And that's all she wrote smile.
_________________________
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"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#450632 - 04/28/11 11:42 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
WolfMoon Offline


Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 735
For the love of Satan can someone please lock this thread? crazy

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#450633 - 04/28/11 11:42 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Quaark]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Quote:
Now, to all the people who are interacting in-depth with SINclair...

WHY?*


I just like to sit back and laugh my ass off at what she says. Simply HILARIOUS!!!!!
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#450635 - 04/28/11 11:45 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Quaark]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1812
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: Daark

Now, to all the people who are interacting in-depth with SINclair...

WHY?*

*This is not an official Mod admonition to cease, but a sincere query born of genuine curiosity!

wink


Exercise smile I've been studying scepticism and critical thinking lately, so I'm making a habit of looking for logical fallacies to see if I can identify them correctly.
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#450637 - 04/28/11 11:51 PM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: TrojZyr]
Liberterius Offline


Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 241
Of course there are many Muslims with whom I could get along fine; I've gone to school with some, and was and are friendly acquaintances with some still to this day.

Those were American born, quite moderate Muslims though mind you.

Now, even Arab devout Muslims are still of course not all assholes anymore than all American devout Christians are.

Meaning they can still be a lot, or might be the nicest folks ever, and will TEND to be more assholy ("holy lol") than more secular type people.

Its not absolutes its tendencies, which I find stronger in Muslims than many other people. I don't like how modern Muslim culture too is still so oppressive to women in the Middle East, and how the men and women there just keep that up.

It's disgusting.

And I disagree with the philosophy and everything of Islam of course.

But yeah, not all people of a given religion are complete dicks, nor are they incapable of being sincerely reasonable and perhaps rather tolerant and moderate.

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#450639 - 04/29/11 12:00 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Liberterius]
SINClair Offline


Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 320
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Liberterius

Really, ok SINClair, I disagree with Daark that you're a complete moron with whom we shouldn't interact.


Aw, thank you. Very sweet of you. Even though this whole thing reminds me of first-grade... resembles the maturity of six year olds. zombie

Still it was nice of you, thank you.

Now, back to topic... think of people who have autism, for instance. They are humans, but with a disability in common, making them a different group of people, different from all normal people.

Perhaps my theory about Muslims could be easier to digest, if approached from that angle.
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#450641 - 04/29/11 12:04 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: SINClair]
Liberterius Offline


Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 241
Originally Posted By: SINClair
Originally Posted By: Liberterius

Really, ok SINClair, I disagree with Daark that you're a complete moron with whom we shouldn't interact.


Aw, thank you. Very sweet of you. Even though this whole thing reminds me of first-grade... resembles the maturity of six year olds. zombie

Still it was nice of you, thank you.

Now, back to topic... think of people who have autism, for instance. They are humans, but with a disability in common, making them a different group of people, different from all normal people.

Perhaps my theory about Muslims could be easier to digest, if approached from that angle.


Don't let it go to your head...I still think you're behaving like an idiot on this particular topic at least.

A different group of people is not a different species.

They are just humans you're categorizing into a different group based on some feature or group of features.

In that definition, yes Muslims definitely are a group of people.

One which often likes to show off how much it IS that group and scream about how everyone outside of that group is infidels.

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#450643 - 04/29/11 12:25 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: SINClair]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8823
Actually, SINclair, after re-reading the entire thread, I have to say you have contributed rather remarkably to the discussion, by presenting a spectacular and remarkably consistent foil for analysis on a number of inter-related levels - even if this was not your intent. That Verszou et al finds value in it has weight.

Thank you.

I am not locking this thread, as it is still productive, (and except for one cranky old Moderator), reasonably civil.

wink
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#450644 - 04/29/11 12:30 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: SINClair]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
What's "wrong" with it is that you aren't stating some opinion, you're spouting off idiotic bullshit.

If you simply said "I fucking hate Muslims, I lump Arabs in with them, I believe they're genetically inferior and I'm fine with being labelled a racist for that" then I doubt anyone would bother arguing it. There's no desire among Satanists to adhere to political correctness.

Instead you're arguing for some half-baked "hypothesis" that demonstrates utter ignorance. For fuck's sake, you've had the whole thing explained to you multiple times, and sourced. Even if you're too lazy to get a book, Wikipedia has a perfectly good explanation of the biological ramifications of speciation, and I can personally verify that said article is generally up to date with modern scientific thought.

If you're going to willfully keep your head in your ass, at least have the decency not to play the victim card.
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"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#450647 - 04/29/11 12:49 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8823
Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
What's "wrong" with it is that you aren't stating some opinion, you're spouting off idiotic bullshit.


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T’aa hwo’ aaji t’eego.

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#450648 - 04/29/11 01:14 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: Quaark]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#450649 - 04/29/11 01:44 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: SINClair]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1812
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: SINClair
The thing is. The poster I was replying to, is typing from Denmark, a country where the Muslim population is very small. What he/she said in the post, sounded like a conclusion taken upon reading articles on the subject. Articles written about Islam and/or Muslims, are always very, very carefully measured words. No one ever dares to question anything about Islam and Muslims, for fear of being called racists.


Yes, let's be careful about those people who read articles. I hear it leads to using books, data and all sorts of things smile

The size of the muslim population in Denmark is irrelevant to the validity of your theory, which was stated to be valid in general.

It's sort of an inverse ad populum argument to support anecdotal evidence. You end up with things like:

"My general theory that all deaths are caused by drowning can only be challenged by people who live in boats and watch people that I personally know drown".

Saying that your theory about muslims can only be proved in certain circumstances by personal observation is special pleading.

Also, the care with which articles are written about islam really have no bearing on whether or not your theory is logically or scientifically sound. So, that's a non sequitor.
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#450650 - 04/29/11 02:09 AM Re: Multiculturalism [Re: SINClair]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1812
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: SINClair

Now, back to topic... think of people who have autism, for instance. They are humans, but with a disability in common, making them a different group of people, different from all normal people.

Perhaps my theory about Muslims could be easier to digest, if approached from that angle.


False analogy. Autism is a neurological disorder, autists are not a separate race either.

Your argument might as well be "some people have the common cold, this sets them apart from others and therefore any statements I make about people who are not like others is true".

Also, your argument here is based on a vague notion of "normal", in some countries being muslim is the norm. So there is a major unstated premise here about what "normal" is.

It would be fun to stay and see if I could get all the ones in the top twenty (http://www.theskepticsguide.org/resources/logicalfallacies.aspx), but there is sun outside, so I think I'll go talk to the plants for a while.
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While having never invented a sin, I'm trying to perfect several.

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