Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#453803 - 06/10/11 01:46 PM Satanic Rule of the Earth # 10
Zsche Offline



Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 158
Loc: Where the 5.56 casings fall...
“Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.”

The groundhog, woodchuck, whistle-pig, land beaver, or marmota monax bears two to six young per year. They are primarily herbivores and can destroy a garden in no time at all, as well as cause massive damage the landscape by creating countless holes for burrows.

I currently have at least five of these creatures residing on my property. They are eating everything that I plant - and making so many holes that it is becoming dangerous to walk around the property. My daughter already accidentally stepped into one of the holes at dusk one evening and twisted her ankle– not knowing it was there.

I love domesticated animals and wildlife, but these things are nothing but a nuisance to me and are getting out of hand. Personally – I’m considering myself under attack. Five groundhogs this year could mean 10 – 30 next year… I’m not planning on eating them even though some claim they are really tasty by the many recipes I have found online.

From a Satanic point of view - Do you think I am justified in eradicating this species from my property?

Opinions are welcomed -
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Phineas
My suggestion to you, besides obtaining a copy of The Satanic Bible and reading it, is to immerse yourself in the information contained at the Church of Satan website.

Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
You can't guzzle whiskey and pinch pretty ladies' asses when you're dead.

Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster
Love life. Live life. Don't fuck with people unnecessarily. Don"t let other people fuck with you. Simple guidelines that that will help you to make informed, intelligent and Satanic decisions.

Originally Posted By: Callier
Constructive criticism is one thing but people that just point blank tell others what they should be doing with their lives without any kind of permission can eat a bag of hairy balls.

Top
#453805 - 06/10/11 01:57 PM Re: Satanic Rule of the Earth # 10 [Re: Zsche]
Direktor Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/12/08
Posts: 499
Perhaps you should explore alternative methods to steer them away before resorting to wiping them off the planet.

I've had a garden for years and have rabbits and groundhogs run about which have never bothered it. I feed them though, too.

Definitely not my area of expertise but maybe relocating your garden or putting up a fence. I think there's also certain organic fragrances made to repel them. The only time I'd personally consider killing a wild animal would be if it were rabid and showed blatant hostility. I just think there's always other avenues you could take.

And groundhogs are tasty. wink

HS!
_________________________
"A complete education in Satanic philosophy is available at your local video store."
-Magistra Blanche Barton, The Church of Satan


"I have studied many philosophers and many cats. The wisdom of cats is infinitely superior."
-Hippolyte Taine



Top
#453808 - 06/10/11 02:23 PM Re: Satanic Rule of the Earth # 10 [Re: Zsche]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
Originally Posted By: Zsche
From a Satanic point of view - Do you think I am justified in eradicating this species from my property?

Opinions are welcomed -


See Rule #4
_________________________
�Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.�
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

Top
#453809 - 06/10/11 02:24 PM Re: Satanic Rule of the Earth # 10 [Re: Zsche]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
I interpret this rule somewhat loosely, to allow for the protection of my safety and property, as long as it is done as humanely as practicable. The point of the rule is to prohibit cruelty to animals, and especially animal sacrifices.
_________________________
reprobate

Top
#453810 - 06/10/11 02:49 PM Re: Satanic Rule of the Earth # 10 [Re: Lust]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8869
Originally Posted By: Tier Instinct
Originally Posted By: Zsche
From a Satanic point of view - Do you think I am justified in eradicating this species from my property?

Opinions are welcomed -


See Rule #4


Uh, no.

Rule 4 applies to humans.
_________________________
T’aa hwo’ aaji t’eego.

Top
#453811 - 06/10/11 02:58 PM Re: Satanic Rule of the Earth # 10 [Re: Zsche]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1813
Loc: Denmark
I'd agree with Reprobate.

Depending on how you interpret the rule yourself (and that should really be what matters to you) you could say that the point is not to kill them, but to ensure that they are not attracted to your property.

I have no real knowledge of these animals, but some schemes I've read about where people didn't want to use poisons etc. often involve ways to restrict access to food, taking advantage of any natural predators they might fear etc.

But if none of these options present themselves I'd say you should do what is needed.

I'd guess that on a philosophical level you could say that nature would regulate the population by itself via things like predators and availability of food. But in areas cultivated by humans these mechanisms are working differently. For instance in my country we see foxes moving into the cities, because thanks to garbage cans and our general wastefulness conditions are better there.

Do we kill them for that? I'm not sure we need to, but on the other hand we may not know what diseases or other changes they will bring to the area.

We have to face a similar conundrum over what is called "invasive species", because we now live in a global environment where one species can hitch a ride on a container shipped from the other side of the globe and land in a place where it has no natural enemy. We currently have that problem with Iberian snails (dubbed "killer snails" by the media - very telling of how peaceful this country is smile ). They destroy gardens and really don't contribute to the food chain, while they are threatening the normal population of snails that we already have.

So which do we kill and which do we keep? Do we introduce birds to eat the snails and then end up wiping out the original species in the process?

In some areas man is an invasive species too. So I think it would be in line with Satanic pragmaticism to do what is needed to establish what you need for yourself, and then leave it at that - i.e. if an animal bothers you, try to discourage it, and if that cannot be done, then "protect" your own. This seems to be a reasonable in-kind response, while rounding up the neighbours to make sure that the animal goes extinct may be excessive smile
_________________________
While having never invented a sin, I'm trying to perfect several.

Top
#453813 - 06/10/11 03:48 PM Re: Satanic Rule of the Earth # 10 [Re: Quaark]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
Originally Posted By: Daark
Originally Posted By: Tier Instinct
Originally Posted By: Zsche
From a Satanic point of view - Do you think I am justified in eradicating this species from my property?

Opinions are welcomed -


See Rule #4


Uh, no.

Rule 4 applies to humans.


Interesting and I would think that most would consider someone who has been invited in to be a guest. What about house spiders? Many consider them as welcome guests but those with phobias may think otherwise and would treat the spiders harsh and without mercy.
_________________________
�Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.�
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

Top
#453815 - 06/10/11 04:11 PM Re: Satanic Rule of the Earth # 10 [Re: Lust]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8869
It is one thing to simply squash a dangerous poisonous spider out of existence instantly and painlessly (perhaps there are toddlers about, phobias, you don't want hundreds of them later, etc).

It is quite another for someone calling themselves a Satanist to ever treat any non-human animal "cruelly and without mercy" as it says in Rule #4. There is simply no good reason for that.

If say a raccoon broke into my house and destroyed everything I own, I would certainly not treat it "cruelly and without mercy".

That's one point.

Secondly, an argument can be made that the earth outside is actually the groundhogs lair, not the humans who happen to be using it at the moment.

Finally, to Zsche: I'd suggest spending some time using Google to find "humane methods of groundhog removal" before proceeding.

If this were my problem, first I'd work on devising ways of keeping them from returning, before figuring out how to remove the ones already there.

People I know have dug thin but deep trenches around their property line and lowered thin sheets of iron the groundhogs can't pass and are too dull witted to dig under. Also keeps out all other burrowing destructive species.
_________________________
T’aa hwo’ aaji t’eego.

Top
#453816 - 06/10/11 04:30 PM Re: Satanic Rule of the Earth # 10 [Re: Zsche]
Zsche Offline



Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 158
Loc: Where the 5.56 casings fall...
Originally Posted By: Direktor
I've had a garden for years and have rabbits and groundhogs run about which have never bothered it.


Indeed Direktor - I too have had a garden for years... My main vegetable garden is fenced - otherwise I would have nothing due to the rabbits, deer, and groundhogs. Last year I had a neighborhood kid come with a live trap and he removed 3 groundhogs (along with an opossum) that he relocated to some game lands. I thought they were all gone – but either I was wrong, or more moved in. I fully expect that the relocated ones were used as target practice for hunters this year.

The main issues are the large sunflower patch and my strawberry patch which are not fenced due to their size - which apparently only the groundhogs seem to be eating - as well as numerous holes they are digging all over my property.

Originally Posted By: Direktor

And groundhogs are tasty. wink


Heh heh! So another view – if I use my sniper skills and take them out with headshots, then turn them into groundhog jerky, barbeque, or stew - then I’m well within the guidelines of this rule.

Originally Posted By: reprobate
I interpret this rule somewhat loosely, to allow for the protection of my safety and property, as long as it is done as humanely as practicable. The point of the rule is to prohibit cruelty to animals, and especially animal sacrifices.


Thank you Warlock Reprobate –

I don’t want them to suffer – I just want them to go away (by whatever means) and stop eating my crops and digging holes everywhere. I certainly don’t endorse cruelty to animals or animal sacrifice.

Originally Posted By: verszou
I'd agree with Reprobate.

Depending on how you interpret the rule yourself (and that should really be what matters to you)…


This is exactly what I thought – interpret it myself, but I wanted to hear other Satanists’ opinons.

Originally Posted By: verszou
In some areas man is an invasive species too. So I think it would be in line with Satanic pragmaticism to do what is needed to establish what you need for yourself, and then leave it at that - i.e. if an animal bothers you, try to discourage it, and if that cannot be done, then "protect" your own. This seems to be a reasonable in-kind response, while rounding up the neighbours to make sure that the animal goes extinct may be excessive smile


Heh heh – I wasn’t planning on having a neighborhood “groundhog lynching” – but instead hoping to be proactive and prevent them from becoming anymore invasive than they already have been.

Originally Posted By: Daark
Finally, to Zsche: I'd suggest spending some time using Google to find "humane methods of groundhog removal" before proceeding.

If this were my problem, first I'd work on devising ways of keeping them from returning, before figuring out how to remove the ones already there.

People I know have dug thin but deep trenches around their property line and lowered thin sheets of iron the groundhogs can't pass and are too dull witted to dig under. Also keeps out all other burrowing destructive species.


If I lived on a small lot – this may be a viable option, but digging a trench and inserting thin sheets of iron around multiple acres simply isn’t realistic. I have already researched and found a product that is a jug of pellets containing “fox scent” that is supposed to repel groundhogs, so I suppose I could try dumping some of this down their holes...

Perhaps I will try eating one - and if I like it, this will solve the problem. If they are a viable food source, I may want to keep them around for Saturday evening dinner.

Hail Satan!
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Phineas
My suggestion to you, besides obtaining a copy of The Satanic Bible and reading it, is to immerse yourself in the information contained at the Church of Satan website.

Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
You can't guzzle whiskey and pinch pretty ladies' asses when you're dead.

Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster
Love life. Live life. Don't fuck with people unnecessarily. Don"t let other people fuck with you. Simple guidelines that that will help you to make informed, intelligent and Satanic decisions.

Originally Posted By: Callier
Constructive criticism is one thing but people that just point blank tell others what they should be doing with their lives without any kind of permission can eat a bag of hairy balls.

Top
#453817 - 06/10/11 04:31 PM Re: Satanic Rule of the Earth # 10 [Re: Quaark]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
I see your point and as an animal lover, I agree. Cute and furry animals have a way of getting away with more mischief versus, say, a poisonous snake. Cruel and without mercy is something I could not do to a non-human animal because it would not be capable of creating that emotion in me to react that way. Therefore, Rule #4 applies to humans.

I appreciate your elaboration, Reverend Daark.
_________________________
�Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.�
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

Top
#453821 - 06/10/11 05:11 PM Re: Satanic Rule of the Earth # 10 [Re: Zsche]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8869
Originally Posted By: Zsche

The main issues are the large sunflower patch and my strawberry patch which are not fenced due to their size - which apparently only the groundhogs seem to be eating - as well as numerous holes they are digging all over my property.


I live on five unfenced acres, with multiple domestic animals and plants inside, and multiple wild carnivores and herbivores "outside", so I fully appreciate your dilemma.

Do I understand right that groundhogs just waddle (above ground) onto your land, THEN dig their burrows?

And the remaining unprotected area for sunflowers and strawberries is too large to economically ($ x labor) fence?

If yes to both... consider a single strand electric wire at a height they cannot get over or under without getting an annoying but harmless ZAP.

Not expensive and can be installed very quickly.
_________________________
T’aa hwo’ aaji t’eego.

Top
#453823 - 06/10/11 05:36 PM Re: Satanic Rule of the Earth # 10 [Re: Zsche]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10129
For once, I agree with reprobate.

My view is that if an animal cannot be reasonably removed and presents a threat to your property you are well within reason to dispatch it. I had a groundhog den going under my foundations once; my response was to sit on the porch with a .22 and pop them when they came out to sun themselves. Colony disappeared pretty rapidly after that. Trapping could have taken weeks and might not have worked at all, nevermind that trapping one or two of them and leaving the rest would not be much progress, and there's no real place to relocate them here where you haven't just foisted your problem on someone else's land.

However, I cannot emphasize enough that this is dependent on the animals being a true threat to property, and that you act in a way that does not cause unnecessary suffering to the animals. Exterminating a garden snake that is doing nobody any harm, for example, is not what I'd call Satanic behavior; nor is using injurious traps that do not kill immediately. Shooting pest animals, use of approved poisons, or nonlethal traps all seem reasonable to me.

There is also some element of attitude about the matter; there is nothing Satanic about killing an animal just because you can. I only advise it if the animal presents a clear threat of injury or loss/destruction of property; venomous spiders, burrowing animals, skunks, etc, all present a rational problem. Basically, don't be an ignorant asshole.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

Top
#453829 - 06/10/11 07:05 PM Re: Satanic Rule of the Earth # 10 [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje

There is also some element of attitude about the matter; there is nothing Satanic about killing an animal just because you can. I only advise it if the animal presents a clear threat of injury or loss/destruction of property; venomous spiders, burrowing animals, skunks, etc, all present a rational problem. Basically, don't be an ignorant asshole.


Exactly.

It rankles me when people gloat about triumphing over a dumb inferior being, or treat killing an animal like a casual fart in the wind. (Except for mosquitoes. Feel free to gloat there, as far as I'm concerned. wink ) Attitude is indeed important.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

Top
#453839 - 06/10/11 10:53 PM Re: Satanic Rule of the Earth # 10 [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Zsche Offline



Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 158
Loc: Where the 5.56 casings fall...
Thank you Priest Hagen von Tronje. I'm certainly not advocating killing just because I can.  I just want to get rid of the groundhogs that are causing damage to my property.  

I grew up on a farm and witnessed many cruel actions towards animals.  Of course these actions were justified in an x-tian home as man was given "dominion over over every living thing that moveth upon the earth" according to the KJV...  I questioned many things as a child.

 I suppose the point of this post was to receive opinions just like you have provided -  such as wondering what constitutes as an attack.  My .22 is sighted-in so that I can hit a quarter consistently at 60 yards. Such accuracy makes unnecessary suffering avoidable.

As far as snakes go - two weeks ago one of my neighbors called me asking if I would come and kill a snake they happened across in their yard.  Upon arriving and realizing it was a common black snake, I promptly picked it up and brought it to it's new home by my pond.

I love animals and creatures  and will defend them if necessary - but if attacked, I will defend myself, my family, and my property.
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Phineas
My suggestion to you, besides obtaining a copy of The Satanic Bible and reading it, is to immerse yourself in the information contained at the Church of Satan website.

Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
You can't guzzle whiskey and pinch pretty ladies' asses when you're dead.

Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster
Love life. Live life. Don't fuck with people unnecessarily. Don"t let other people fuck with you. Simple guidelines that that will help you to make informed, intelligent and Satanic decisions.

Originally Posted By: Callier
Constructive criticism is one thing but people that just point blank tell others what they should be doing with their lives without any kind of permission can eat a bag of hairy balls.

Top
#453842 - 06/10/11 11:36 PM Re: Satanic Rule of the Earth # 10 [Re: Zsche]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10129
Then I would say you have the necessary respect, responsibility, and know-how to make a reasonable decision.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >


Forum Stats
12199 Members
73 Forums
43982 Topics
406055 Posts

Max Online: 197 @ 10/04/11 06:49 AM
Advertisements