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#465592 - 12/07/11 11:41 PM Lex Talionis Definition
London Offline
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Registered: 02/15/04
Posts: 965
Loc: The Inmost Dens
One pet peeve of mine is listening to people claim Lex Talionis translates as, "Law of the talon." It does not. Lex Talionis translates into English as, "Law of retaliation."

You might think this is obsessive nit-picking, but as Satanists we get enough flak. If we are to be taken seriously we must present ourselves as intelligent, educated, and confident. It is poor lesser magic to appear as though you know nothing about what you are speaking of, especially with a fundamental aspect of your own religion.

No more excuses! Now you know, and knowing is half the battle! grin

lex ta·li·o·nis [leks tal-ee-oh-nis]
noun
the principle or law of retaliation that a punishment inflicted should correspond in degree and kind to the offense of the wrongdoer, as an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth; retributive justice.

Link.

LEX TALIONIS. The law of retaliation an example of which is given in the law of Moses, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, &c.


Link.

The law of retaliation that the punishment should correspond to the crime, as an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Also called talion.

Link.

lex talionis
n
(Law) the law of revenge or retaliation

Link.

Edit: Posted in the wrong section; should be in General!


Edited by London (12/07/11 11:51 PM)
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#465594 - 12/08/11 12:13 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10118
Moved to general discussion.
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"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#465609 - 12/08/11 08:59 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
London Offline
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Registered: 02/15/04
Posts: 965
Loc: The Inmost Dens
Thanks! smile
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If the enemy of my enemy is my friend, then using logic I can deduce that the friend of my friend is my enemy.

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#465613 - 12/08/11 11:02 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
To supplement your point, "tāliōnis" is the genitive singular of "tāliō", retaliation.

The English word "talon", on the other hand, comes from an Old French word for "heel".
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#465615 - 12/08/11 11:12 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
Bet'phage Offline


Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 194
Loc: Ohio
It's amazing that when Christ came on the scene, he reversed this law and instituted another law: forgiveness and surrender (see Matthew 5:38-42).

The law of forgiveness weakens people by teaching them to be irresponsible for and unrefined in their actions and words, thinking, "O well, it doesn't matter, they have to forgive me anyhow."

Truly shameful.
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#465628 - 12/08/11 12:36 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
London Offline
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Registered: 02/15/04
Posts: 965
Loc: The Inmost Dens
It should be clarified the law of Moses is just one example of Lex Talionis. Retaliation can also be more severe than the offense rather than exactly equal to it; e.g. there are many who would argue a child molester has no right to live even though he never took the life of another.

"The term lex talionis does not always and only refer to literal eye-for-an-eye codes of justice (see rather mirror punishment) but applies to the broader class of legal systems that specify formulaic penalties for specific crimes, which are thought to be fitting in their severity."

Link.

Many people interpret Ghandi's statement that, "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind," was his advocation of forgiveness (and it probably was). My first reaction to hearing it was that if someone took my eye, I'd take their life. Problem solved.
_________________________
If the enemy of my enemy is my friend, then using logic I can deduce that the friend of my friend is my enemy.

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#465630 - 12/08/11 01:03 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
MagdaGraham Offline
CoS Priestess

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 13369
Loc: Scotland
Quote:
there are many who would argue a child molester has no right to live even though he never took the life of another.


Because many victims commit suicide or decline into drug abuse. Would you say that they are not murdered?

There is also the pragmatic reason: to prevent the perpetrator from doing it again.
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#465631 - 12/08/11 01:20 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 756
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
I like your explanation.

I think Lex Talionis is justified by the third Satanic Sin, the sixth Satanic Rule of the Earth and the eleventh Satanic Rule of the Earth.

The Satanist does unto others what they do unto the Satanist, the perpetrator is crying out to be relieved of his life and freedom by submitting to stupidity, and the Satanist will destroy the perpetrator AND the threat by means which aren't repercussive such as legal action and self defense.

Does this make sense?
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"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

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#465633 - 12/08/11 01:52 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10118
I would argue that the punishment must always be more severe than the crime, or else there is no deterrent value.

If I steal $100 from you, and my punishment is only a $100 fine if caught, then I risk nothing. If I am successful I am $100 richer, if caught then I have paid no greater penalty than what I was able to gain anyway.

On the other hand, if theft of $100 led to a year of forced labor, then I might think twice about stealing a wallet.

It is sometimes pointed out that the US retaliatory legal system has led to a high rate of recidivism; I counter that this is not because the concept is flawed, but only the halfassed execution. Singapore, for example, doesn't have a drug problem. Dealers there get hung (literally), in public. Even a complete dumbass can do that math and will avoid coming anywhere near drugs.
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"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#465636 - 12/08/11 02:25 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
ElizabethC. Offline


Registered: 10/31/11
Posts: 37
Originally Posted By: London
there are many who would argue a child molester has no right to live even though he never took the life of another.


There are ways to take another person's life without physically killing them.

Not to mention that child molesters are self-perpetuating--people who have been abused are somewhat likely to become abusers themselves. Therefore, permanently removing child molesters from the general population decreases the number of 'new' child molesters.

However, I don't believe in the death penalty, as you're eliminating a source of cheap labour. Touch a kid and end up doing fieldwork for the rest of your life. I'd also like to offer the families of murder victims the option to have a convicted felon as a sort of slave. They wouldn't be allowed to physically (or mentally) torture your assignee, but that person would be dropped off every morning and picked up every evening (or whenever you wanted them for chores).

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#465638 - 12/08/11 02:41 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
London Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/15/04
Posts: 965
Loc: The Inmost Dens
Although I don't agree with executing someone for using drugs, I do completely agree with your sentiments.

I have a joke I use with criminology majors: "Here, I'll save you four years of school and not even charge you for it: The only way to deter crime is to make the punishment so severe that almost no one would consider risking it."
_________________________
If the enemy of my enemy is my friend, then using logic I can deduce that the friend of my friend is my enemy.

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#465641 - 12/08/11 03:04 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10118
To clarify, I believe the death penalty is applied to drug dealers. Drug users get some lesser (but still harsh) penalty.

Hardly anyone is hung for dealing anymore. Seems the message came through loud and clear.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#465671 - 12/08/11 08:59 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Liberterius Offline


Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 241
I don't agree with Singapore's punishments for drugs and pornography, (or very strict gun control for that matter) but their corporal punishment and death penalty for kidnapping and child molestation I can completely get behind.

I'd love to see the police beat people here for littering. smile

Reading on Wikipedia; Singapore only had 8 murders in 2007, all of them solved. Out of a country of over 5 million people! Amazing.

6th best healthcare system in the world, least corrupt country in the world.

I'd say the country is a good example of very harsh punishment's working as effective deterrent for crime.

And with their drug laws, at least they put most drug offenders in harsh rehabilitation rather than prison.

I wonder how well the Scandinavian model (not the hot blonde one) of law enforcement works though...putting criminals in comfortable, fancy camping-trip settings.

Hm.

Anyway Lex Talionis is great and Singapore proves it.

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#465690 - 12/09/11 12:27 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Delta Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 6747
Loc: Nar
I don't think it always has to be more severe than the crime, so long as better aimed to deter it. The exact inversion is inapplicable in some cases, molesting a molester may only excite and inspire him. One upping a crime in the sense of a year of forced labor for stealing a hundred dollars may be a deterrent, but can create escalation rather than ending it. If one were to face a year of labor for that crime, they may come out with a mind for revenge. If they were executed, then their family might seek the same. That's not to say it's the responsibility of the state to be lenient enough that criminals wont resent it, but that at a certain point severity can become more of a problem than its worth. The most effective punishments are not necessarily the most brutal, but often the best tailored to the individual.

All the above is my excuse to post this:

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#465721 - 12/09/11 11:31 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Delta]
Liberterius Offline


Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 241
That Facebook post is hilarious Delta. XD

Wonder what happened.

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