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#465730 - 12/09/11 03:46 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Liberterius]
Marie V Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/25/11
Posts: 66
Loc: Estonia
Originally Posted By: Liberterius

I wonder how well the Scandinavian model (not the hot blonde one) of law enforcement works though...putting criminals in comfortable, fancy camping-trip settings.


It doesn't. Living in Scandinavian area myself, I've seen that this "law enforcement" model has no effect whatsoever. Actually crime escalates when the winter comes: many homeless crooks commit a series of smaller fellanies to get a warm place to sleep for a few months and be out for the summer. There was documentary on a womens' correctional facility recently: they get to live in flats. There's a complex of apartment buildings in a closed area, so they have like 4-5 "inmates" in a flat. With all comforts, of course. I nearly planned a bank robbery, it made my apartment look like a s*hole.
How does that supposedly "humane" system serve it's purpose, is what I'd like to know...


Edited by Marie V (12/09/11 03:48 PM)
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#465732 - 12/09/11 04:29 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
Herr_S Offline


Registered: 12/25/08
Posts: 76
Loc: Mordor
I do agree with most of what you're saying but I'm skeptical to the death penalty, I feel it's giving too much power in the hands of the government as well as the possibility (however small) of an innocent being sentenced to a irreversible punishment.
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#465739 - 12/09/11 05:26 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Marie V]
Liberterius Offline


Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 241
Originally Posted By: Marie V
Originally Posted By: Liberterius

I wonder how well the Scandinavian model (not the hot blonde one) of law enforcement works though...putting criminals in comfortable, fancy camping-trip settings.


It doesn't. Living in Scandinavian area myself, I've seen that this "law enforcement" model has no effect whatsoever. Actually crime escalates when the winter comes: many homeless crooks commit a series of smaller fellanies to get a warm place to sleep for a few months and be out for the summer. There was documentary on a womens' correctional facility recently: they get to live in flats. There's a complex of apartment buildings in a closed area, so they have like 4-5 "inmates" in a flat. With all comforts, of course. I nearly planned a bank robbery, it made my apartment look like a s*hole.
How does that supposedly "humane" system serve it's purpose, is what I'd like to know...


Interesting, yet from what I've read crime is quite low there.

Do you know if many of the criminals are Muslim immigrants, and how many are native Scandinavians, based on your experience at least and the local news?

I've heard most of the rape in Stockholm is from Muslim immigrants.

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#465744 - 12/09/11 06:06 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
Unknown User Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 1511
Originally Posted By: London
Although I don't agree with executing someone for using drugs, I do completely agree with your sentiments.

I have a joke I use with criminology majors: "Here, I'll save you four years of school and not even charge you for it: The only way to deter crime is to make the punishment so severe that almost no one would consider risking it."


And under British Common Law there were eight felonies all punishable by death, yet people still committed those eight felonies.

A criminal will commit a crime regardless of the severity of the punishment because of their defective brains. Cause and effect do not factor into it.

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#465747 - 12/09/11 07:21 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
ElizabethC. Offline


Registered: 10/31/11
Posts: 37
Also, a great number of homicides happen in the heat of the moment, when people aren't thinking clearly, or are committed by people who don't think they'll get caught, so they have no reason to worry about the death penalty or incarcertation. OR through involvement with drugs, where dealers and such are protecting their business. Money makes people do stupid things.

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#465753 - 12/09/11 11:02 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: ElizabethC.]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
I've never bought this line of thinking.

I have certainly lost my temper, but I've never struck someone nor destroyed property, even my own, out of rage. I don't even think you could fairly say that I'm a gentle person - I simply don't permit myself to do stupid shit out of anger, because I was never allowed to think that this is acceptable.

The problem is not human nature, nor is it uncontrollable emotions, but a lack of indotrinated consequences for unacceptable behavior.

When I refrain from stealing, I don't have to weigh the consequences against the gain, nor do I have to remind myself of my ethical obligation. When I show common courtesy in public, I need not calculate the risk vs benefit of doing so. These things are "no brainers" because they were (correctly) indoctrinated in me from youth.

Similarly, a housebroken dog isn't weighing the possible punishment against the pleasure of shitting on the floor all day, he already understands what he should and should not do and abides it. Even a relatively dimwitted dog can be housebroken with no need to understand why he cannot shit on the floor.

The problem is simple: some people aren't housebroken and do far worse than shit on the floor. Proper indoctrination corrects this, and the simplest way is to make it unthinkable to do otherwise, and to address the issue at its root.

I seriously doubt Singaporeans frequently have to stop themselves from spitting on the sidewalk or pissing on the floor of public bathrooms; it seems far more likely that the penal system has removed the possibility from their mental options altogether. Brutal punishment rarely need be meted out at all once this sets in.
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#465754 - 12/10/11 12:33 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Bet'phage Offline


Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 194
Loc: Ohio
And, at this late stage in the game, probably the only way they will get housebroken is to have confrontations with other housebroken people who teach them by example how to hold it while scurrying out of the backdoor. (Who we spend time with matters!) This will probably include some painful figuring out, and perhaps even brutal personal adjustments, on their part.

But who has the patience or the time to indoctrinate such a one? Hopefully, by being around other law abiding people, it will occur through osmosis (and a good kick now and then)? But will they be perceptive enough to hang around sensible and rational people? Probably not.
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#465756 - 12/10/11 02:23 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10555
Loc: England
>> I have a joke I use with criminology majors: "Here, I'll save you four years of school and not even charge you for it: The only way to deter crime is to make the punishment so severe that almost no one would consider risking it." <<


The normally aspirited human being would logically weigh up the options, yes.

But such penalties have never been successful in resolving crime throughout history. Human nature is infinitely more animalistic than anyone wants to believe. Take away society as we know it and there is no crime. Only the struggle for supremacy. Take away the restraints and the "lunatics" would completely take over the asylum.

Use of drugs is almost certainly an attempted escape from society.

or...

Maybe most of the mental illness we see in society is a symptom of human beings being forced to live in an unnatural state.


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#465761 - 12/10/11 04:12 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Liberterius]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1810
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: Liberterius

I wonder how well the Scandinavian model (not the hot blonde one) of law enforcement works though...putting criminals in comfortable, fancy camping-trip settings.


I think that, just like the welfare-state, initially it worked ok. The thinking behind both ideas was that treating people nicely when they are down on their luck and getting them back to being productive members of society is a good thing, because leaving them down there would make things worse.

But as with all kinds of friendly attitude, sooner or later cynical behaviour gets the upper hand. 14 years for murder under those circumstances does not sound that bad to a hardened criminal, and for the current gang-culture around here it's more seen as a career opportunity than actual punishment.

You can see a similar trend with out weapon laws. Historically we have had lower death rates compared to the US, but lately it is getting closer to the old saying "When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns", drug- and gang-related shootings, which were almost unheard of ten or twenty years ago are becoming common.

So - the Scandinavian system works well in a homogeneous, somewhat isolated small society with a lot of equality, because the incentives to become a criminal are few, and the chance to get back into society is good.

In our modern global world, it's just an open invitation for more hardened criminals to come here and operate.
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#465762 - 12/10/11 05:07 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Liberterius]
Marie V Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/25/11
Posts: 66
Loc: Estonia
Originally Posted By: Liberterius

Interesting, yet from what I've read crime is quite low there.

Do you know if many of the criminals are Muslim immigrants, and how many are native Scandinavians, based on your experience at least and the local news?

I've heard most of the rape in Stockholm is from Muslim immigrants.


It's not necessarily Muslims, but - as much as it pains me to say it - immigrants (be it legal or not) overall. Since the punishment is second to none...there is virtually nothing to lose when commiting a crime.
The crime is generally low because GDP per capita is pretty high, the only ones who feel the need to commit crimes are immigrants who don't know how or want to put themselves to use or those just a bit messed up upstairs. And occasionally some government officials, but nothing is ever done to them.
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"I will never live for the sake of another man, nor will I ask another man to live for mine." - A.Rand

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#465763 - 12/10/11 06:30 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Liberterius]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1810
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: Liberterius

Do you know if many of the criminals are Muslim immigrants, and how many are native Scandinavians, based on your experience at least and the local news?

I've heard most of the rape in Stockholm is from Muslim immigrants.


Crime statistics, even when corrected for social factors, seems to suggest that immigrants from the middle east do figure more often in there than the native or immigrants from other areas.

This is of course highly controversial and often disputed by the left wing/humanists.

There is a new trend which has emerged during the last decade of criminals coming from eastern Europe. These people aren't really immigrants, they are more like "criminals on tour" in that they come here, commit crimes, then go back or in the worst case caught, warned and thrown on a bus back to their own country. The local wit have even named the special shopping bags they carry to avoid detectors in shops "Russian-bags" or "Rumanian-bags".

Lately thought they seem to have turned towards violent crimes aimed at people in their own homes. Since this kind of crime is not native to the area, police is not geared towards protecting rural areas, and they thrive on that.

I think however that there is a distinction here between the two groups in that the muslim immigrants have the social security net available to them, as well as state sponsored education. The criminals who take advantage of the more relaxed border-control inside the EU probably have very little to loose. Both groups are criminals, but with different motivations.
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While having never invented a sin, I'm trying to perfect several.

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#465765 - 12/10/11 07:23 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Bet'phage]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
Originally Posted By: Bet'phage
It's amazing that when Christ came on the scene, he reversed this law and instituted another law: forgiveness and surrender (see Matthew 5:38-42).


Priestcraft!

There is no historical evidence of this person.

What do you think of the following wording?

It's amazing that when the claims of the Christ came about, these teachings sought a reversal of this law and instituted another law: forgiveness and surrender (see Matthew 5:38-42).
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�Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.�
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#465767 - 12/10/11 09:12 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Lust]
Bet'phage Offline


Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 194
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: Tier Instinct
It's amazing that when the claims of the Christ came about, these teachings sought a reversal of this law and instituted another law: forgiveness and surrender (see Matthew 5:38-42).


Why yes! It's a much better way of saying it. Perhaps "Christ-myth" may be an even better phrase. As in:

"When the Christ-myth was invented, one result was that the old law of retribution was reversed to become a new law of forgiveness and surrender." smile
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#465768 - 12/10/11 09:32 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Bet'phage]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3401
You both give early Christians far too much credit; in order to have invented, in its entirety, the Jesus-story it would have been a colossal effort, organization, and propaganda dispersed over persons spanning 300 hundred years, in different areas and social status, with solely ancient means of communication.

Right. That truly would have been a miracle.

Far more likely that Jesus was an actual person. Evidence suggests he was pushing for Jewish reforms, in a turbulent and troublesome province far off in the Roman empire. Judeah had several such reformers. The texts about Jesus were simply the ones that survived. Early Jewish followers of Jesus eventually became gentile followers of Jesus, and slowly it grew.

Just like every other damn religion on the planet.

In my opinion, it is a modern emotional response to claim that Jesus never existed based on resentment towards current Christian influence.

No one ever claims that Zeus was a conspiracy, because Zeus followers never impose their ideas on others.


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#465770 - 12/10/11 10:05 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: LordofDarkness]
Unknown User Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 1511
Legal action?

Please, the law is not concerned with "justice." Text book example being that pharmacist who executed one of the thieves who tried to rob him. Was that justice? Yes, from the standpoint of Lex Talionis it was, but was it legal? No friggin' way. For exacting Lex Talionus, this man had his life destroyed.

It is important to remember that the "law" does not care about the average citizen. All it cares about is maintaining its sole privilege to punish. If a citizen tries to usurp that power via Lex Talionis, that citizen then becomes an enemy of the "law" and is dealt with accordingly.



Edited by Ushiwakamaru (12/10/11 10:06 AM)

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