Page 3 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
#465776 - 12/10/11 10:49 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Zaftig]
Bet'phage Offline


Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 194
Loc: Ohio
The "Christ-myth," as I put it, certainly has a more complex development than I was aiming to convey with my brief comment.

This is an entire branch of study in itself, and I would certainly not want to diminish the hard detective work those scholars exhibit who try to figure it out. (Or would I?)

My use of "myth" is not the variety of Zeus, but that of a (possible) historic personage, whose story his followers begin to embellish until the critical point of declaring that personage a hero, to one degree or another.

The bishops (Council of Nicaea, 325 C.E.) who validated the judgement (it was an existing belief in some quarters before the Council) that this Christ character was "God," and defined exactly what that meant, is the epitome of such embellishment, but it took 300 years to get there. A lot happens in 300 years and this becomes somewhat hard to trace.

His actual life (had it existed as such) would not necessarily resemble the embellishment at all. The personage involved in such a myth (embellishment) may be surprised at the end result, were they able to come back to the land of the living and "read their story."
_________________________
"Strength through Joy!"

http://www.vampiretemple.com/whatis.html

Top
#465780 - 12/10/11 11:18 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
ElizabethC. Offline


Registered: 10/31/11
Posts: 37
Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
The problem is not human nature, nor is it uncontrollable emotions, but a lack of indoctrinated consequences for unacceptable behavior.


I agree completely--it's about modelled behaviour. As long as children are born to and raised by people who are neither emotionally, intellectually or financially prepared to raise children, there will always be criminals. For example, after birth control and abortion were legalised, crime rates dropped.

If kids are raised in an atmosphere of restraint, the vast majority of them are going to become adults who will not commit crimes. This is why it's unusual to see kids from happy homes committing crimes.

Personally, I'd like people to have to pass a test before being allowed to procreate. The result would be a further drop in crime.

Top
#465800 - 12/10/11 03:25 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Unknown User]
Delta Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 6750
Loc: Nar
Originally Posted By: Ushiwakamaru
Please, the law is not concerned with "justice."


Of course it is. You just don't agree with its application.

Originally Posted By: Ushiwakamaru
Text book example being that pharmacist who executed one of the thieves who tried to rob him. Was that justice? Yes, from the standpoint of Lex Talionis it was


No, that was a man shooting another man and not for self defense. Lex Talionis would involve the state punishing the criminal with severity in accordance to his crime. As the pharmacist performed a non-state sanctioned execution without trial, or "murder", Lex would have him executed.

Lex Talionis does not mean justice any more than any other law. In its original application it meant lessening the punishment from "with interest" and limiting it to something fitting the crime. As in not killing someone for a robbery.

Originally Posted By: Ushiwakamaru
the "law" does not care about the average citizen


Neither do we, if that's an appeal to emotion. The law is concerned with maintaining order and securing as just a fate as possible for those who violate it. It is not a being with free will that has any such concerns, unless you mean "The Law" as in the antiquated western term for lawmen. Your gripe is then with the corruption of those people, not with the set legal term.

Either way, you only propose another, harsher law. Maybe a castle doctrine that says revenge is also on the table beyond defense.

Originally Posted By: Ushiwakamaru
If a citizen tries to usurp that power via Lex Talionis, that citizen then becomes an enemy of the "law" and is dealt with accordingly.


That pharmacist shot a man 5 times in the head as he laid on the floor. This is illegal. If Lex Talionis applied, it would still be illegal, and that man would have 5 bullets in his skull. Lex Talionis is not a way to usurp power, it is not the same as vigilantism and is quite unrelated to self defense (except on a societal level).

Self defense is legal, with fatal results if necessary. The reason pharmacist is in prison because shooting an unconscious body 5 times was deemed not necessary to defend himself.
_________________________




Top
#465802 - 12/10/11 03:51 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
The problem is not human nature, nor is it uncontrollable emotions, but a lack of indotrinated consequences for unacceptable behavior.


Indoctrinated, predictable, consistent consequences.

And, yeah, I think it's partly that, and partly a lack of training and education, especially in the areas of general decision-making and self-control.

Not only do people have to know and appreciate the consequences of their actions--and be able to trust that these consequences will be predictable and consistent--but they also need to have the means and the knowledge necessary to select and utilize the proper behavior from a wider "toolbox" of options, and the confidence in their own ability to use the "tool" they've selected competently and effectively.

To use your housebreaking analogy, you need to teach dogs to shit in the yard, and not in the house--in essence, you need to teach "DO shit here," as well as "DON'T shit there." This means you need to give them a doggie door, or take them for regular walks, to ensure that they won't shit in the house. If they shit in the house, you need to scold them, and put them in time-out, immediately, every single time they do it. And, of course, when they're little puppies, you have to go positively apeshit with joy and praise when they shit outside, so they know they did right, and are motivated to do it again.

If you keep the dog locked indoors all day long; if you giggle the first time he shits inside; if you freak out about the dog shitting, period; if you beat the dog one day for shitting on the rug, and ignore him the next; you'll have a dog who shits in the house.

The procedure's basically the same, and the mistakes are the same, whether you're working with animals, children, or rehabilitatable criminals.

Originally Posted By: verszou
So - the Scandinavian system works well in a homogeneous, somewhat isolated small society with a lot of equality, because the incentives to become a criminal are few, and the chance to get back into society is good.


Two ideas stand out here:

First, one size doesn't fit all. What works in one culture may need to be tweaked or altered, at least, before being applied in another, and cultures may have to alter their approach in different ways as they evolve and shift over time.

Second, human behavior is motivated by pushes and pulls--we push away from what we don't want, and are pulled towards what we do.

You have to consider what people--in this case, different types of criminals--want, as well as what they don't, and apply the carrot and the stick accordingly, in the proper amounts and ratios.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

Top
#465811 - 12/10/11 06:08 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Zaftig]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11554
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: Zaftig
in order to have invented, in its entirety, the Jesus-story it would have been a colossal effort, organization, and propaganda dispersed over persons spanning 300 hundred years,
[...]
Far more likely that Jesus was an actual person.

Those aren't the only two possibilities, though. I don't believe the myth to be a carefully planned, premeditated invention, but I don't believe that Jesus was an actual historical figure either.

My own research on the topic has led me to conclude that Jesus was rather a combination of several different figures, some real (Apollonius of Tyana, Yeishu ben Pandeira/ha-notzri, ben Stada, etc.) some fictional (Mithra, Prometheus, Tammuz-Osiris, etc.).

Suggested sites:
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com
http://www.jesuspuzzle.org
http://mama.indstate.edu/users/nizrael/jesusrefutation.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/christianity/historicity.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/thallus.html
http://www.amazon.com/Mythmaker-Paul-Invention-Christianity/dp/0062505858/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSzQC1zKesU
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen048.html

Quote:
In my opinion, it is a modern emotional response to claim that Jesus never existed based on resentment towards current Christian influence.

For some people, I'm sure that fuels some of it. There's some unfounded stuff out there like "Zeitgeist". But there's still a vast difference in amount of confirming historical evidence for somebody like Julius Caesar or George Washington, and somebody like Jesus or even Pythagoras.

Using Pythagoras as an example, he left no known personal writings or artifacts, there's very little (if just one) independent sources of information on him. Even then, it was written by somebody else, it was written years after he allegedly existed, and it's filled with a lot of obviously fictional stories that involved miracles. Similarly, the only sources we have for Jesus are the Gospels, most of which just copy from Matthew, and were all written years after Jesus' alleged death (especially the Book of John).

Of course, this isn't the reason I reject Christianity. I reject it on philosophical grounds, not historical. And I got into this topic of the historical Jesus decades after I made that decision.
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

(Wenn du Google's ▄bersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)

Top
#465821 - 12/10/11 08:55 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Bill_M]
Bet'phage Offline


Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 194
Loc: Ohio
That's certainly a lot of reading you've provided in the links. Thanks. I hope it proves interesting. (How could it not?)
_________________________
"Strength through Joy!"

http://www.vampiretemple.com/whatis.html

Top
#465823 - 12/10/11 09:13 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Delta]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 757
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
Originally Posted By: Delta
Originally Posted By: Ushiwakamaru
Please, the law is not concerned with "justice."


Of course it is. You just don't agree with its application.

Originally Posted By: Ushiwakamaru
Text book example being that pharmacist who executed one of the thieves who tried to rob him. Was that justice? Yes, from the standpoint of Lex Talionis it was



Precisely what I meant. Thank you Delta!
No, that was a man shooting another man and not for self defense. Lex Talionis would involve the state punishing the criminal with severity in accordance to his crime. As the pharmacist performed a non-state sanctioned execution without trial, or "murder", Lex would have him executed.

Lex Talionis does not mean justice any more than any other law. In its original application it meant lessening the punishment from "with interest" and limiting it to something fitting the crime. As in not killing someone for a robbery.

Originally Posted By: Ushiwakamaru
the "law" does not care about the average citizen


Neither do we, if that's an appeal to emotion. The law is concerned with maintaining order and securing as just a fate as possible for those who violate it. It is not a being with free will that has any such concerns, unless you mean "The Law" as in the antiquated western term for lawmen. Your gripe is then with the corruption of those people, not with the set legal term.

Either way, you only propose another, harsher law. Maybe a castle doctrine that says revenge is also on the table beyond defense.

Originally Posted By: Ushiwakamaru
If a citizen tries to usurp that power via Lex Talionis, that citizen then becomes an enemy of the "law" and is dealt with accordingly.


That pharmacist shot a man 5 times in the head as he laid on the floor. This is illegal. If Lex Talionis applied, it would still be illegal, and that man would have 5 bullets in his skull. Lex Talionis is not a way to usurp power, it is not the same as vigilantism and is quite unrelated to self defense (except on a societal level).

Self defense is legal, with fatal results if necessary. The reason pharmacist is in prison because shooting an unconscious body 5 times was deemed not necessary to defend himself.


Precisely what I meant. Thank you Delta!

The legal action I meant would be Retaliation through the assistance of the law. If I was that pharmacist, I would make sure the robber didn't shoot me, then as he left I would be calling the police, filing a report, etc until the idiot ends up in jail.

The Satanist would take care to not make decisions that would have hindering repercussive results.


Edited by LordofDarkness (12/10/11 09:30 PM)
_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

Top
#465837 - 12/11/11 08:44 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Zaftig]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
Citizen London - Your post is a good one and it was not my intention to start a topic outside of yours. My response is warranted though.

Originally Posted By: Zaftig

In my opinion, it is a modern emotional response to claim that Jesus never existed based on resentment towards current Christian influence.


Good point. I say that the response comes from the lack of proof and promotion of faith. Not sure if Reverend Bill_M posted this one but it is a page that I enjoyed. http://nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

Originally Posted By: Zaftig
No one ever claims that Zeus was a conspiracy, because Zeus followers never impose their ideas on others.


Sure they do. The following is focused on Hercules though and mentions his father, Zeus. smile

From the same website.

" IF JESUS, THEN WHY NOT HERCULES?

If a person accepts hearsay and accounts from believers as historical evidence for Jesus, then shouldn't they act consistently to other accounts based solely on hearsay and belief?

To take one example, examine the evidence for Hercules of Greek mythology and you will find it parallels the "historicity" of Jesus to such an amazing degree that for Christian apologists to deny Hercules as a historical person belies and contradicts the very same methodology used for a historical Jesus.

Note that Herculean myth resembles Jesus in many areas. The mortal and chaste Alcmene, the mother of Hercules, gave birth to him from a union with God (Zeus). Similar to Herod who wanted to kill Jesus, Hera wanted to kill Hercules. Like Jesus, Hercules traveled the earth as a mortal helping mankind and performed miraculous deeds. Similar to Jesus who died and rose to heaven, Hercules died, rose to Mt. Olympus and became a god. Hercules gives example of perhaps the most popular hero in Ancient Greece and Rome. They believed that he actually lived, told stories about him, worshiped him, and dedicated temples to him."
_________________________
´┐ŻLove is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.´┐Ż
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

Top
#465841 - 12/11/11 09:44 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Lust]
Bet'phage Offline


Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 194
Loc: Ohio
Edited: In retrospect, a fairly useless post.


Edited by Bet'phage (12/11/11 11:19 AM)
_________________________
"Strength through Joy!"

http://www.vampiretemple.com/whatis.html

Top
#465854 - 12/11/11 02:14 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Bill_M]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10123
Funny that Tier Instinct compares Jesus to Hercules, because that was exactly what I intended to do.

When you remove the obviously fabricated stories surrounding either figure, you're left with very, very little. To wit:

- An ancient Greek warrior hero and strongman whose exploits were renowned.
- An ancient Jewish preacher whose exploits were renowned.

The problem is defining who, exactly, is "Jesus." Would it be sufficient if an otherwise unimpressive Jewish preacher lived around that time period and was publicly executed for rabble rousing? That's a drastically abbreviated version of the person described in most texts concerning him; indeed, it seems "Jesus" as a figure is defined by all the things that are obviously not true about him. If you accept that such a whittled down version of the figure was probably real, then why not Hercules, or Thor, or any other renowned mythological figure?

It's also almost indisputably the case that there was a conspiracy to promote the image of Jesus. The Roman Catholic Church cherry picked which texts would be accepted as "real" and cobbled together their version of the figure, then enforced that version violently, suppressing and even killing off dissidents. If that's not a conspiracy, I'm not sure what is.

For my part, so far as I know there are next to no reliable third party accounts that even mention Jesus - quite an oversight given how allegedly significant he was, and how meticulous Romans were at keeping records. Jesus is too reminescent of other mythological figures for it to be coincidence, and in the absence of proof of anyone like him, I can only conclude that most likely (like so much else in Christianity) he's a co-oped, renamed and repurposed figure from other cults.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

Top
#465855 - 12/11/11 02:34 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: LordofDarkness]
Unknown User Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 1511
Well if you just don't get it, you just don't get it.

The criminal justice system is a business. As such, it needs to make a profit in order to stay in business. If people aren't breaking the law, then the massive cj machinery will slowly grind to a halt and a vast number of people will suddenly find themselves redundant and unemployed. To make sure this doesn't happen, legislators keep passing laws designed to strip you of your liberties. Think of the cj industry as a giant furnace that must be constantly stoked with human fuel in order for it to keep burning.

As for not being concerned with rights of ordinary citizens, well I got news for you, that's just what we all are. Your little red card doesn't grant any more rights under the Constitution than non-members, so you may want to "get over" yourselves with that line of thinking.

As for the Castle Doctrine, this is a law that is in effect in certain states that says if someone enters your property without your permission, you have the legal right to shoot them.

Also, self defense is an affirmative defense, which means that if the defendant intends on using it, he/she then shifts the burden from the prosecution onto themselves. Unlike the prosecution, which must prove all elements of a crime BRD, the defendant merely needs to raise in the minds of the jurors "reasonable doubt" in order to be able to be acquitted using such a defense.


Edited by Ushiwakamaru (12/11/11 02:54 PM)

Top
#465858 - 12/11/11 02:50 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Unknown User]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Quote:
as for the Castle Doctrine, this is a law that is in effect in certain states that says if someone enters your property without your permission, you have the legal right to shoot them.

That is not lex talionis. It's the Castle Doctrine. Whatever the merits of the Castle Doctrine, it's a separate doctrine. Lex talionis applies only where self-defense is not at stake.

Lex talionis means the punishment should fit the crime in degree and, where appropriate, in kind. No less than an eye for an eye, but also, no more than an eye for an eye. Executing someone for stealing is not a match of degree.

Lex talionis is a policy for duly constituted authorities to mete out. It doesn't permit vigilantes to make summary executions. That's murder.
_________________________
reprobate

Top
#465860 - 12/11/11 03:29 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: reprobate]
Unknown User Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 1511
Yes, well I was not the one who originally brought up the Castle Doctrine. I merely gave a very brief synopsis of the term.

As for the punishment fitting the crime, that would be up to the individual in question's personal preference. Would castrating a rapist be an example of Lex Talionis? Certainly, if that form of punishment seemed an appropriate one for the victim to mete out. Would shooting some unconscious scumbag five times in the head be another example? Sure it would. Was it legal? Obviously not, but it was nonetheless a form of justice meted out in proportion to the severity of the crime.

The problem with vigilance committees, at least from the perspective of the cj industry, are that they cut the middlemen, the cops, judges, and jailers, out of the equation. If citizens are allowed to handle such things on their own, then what need would there be for those cops, judges, and jailers? They would be, as I said in my previous post, made redundant. This is why the cj industry hates, with an abiding passion, anyone who dares encroach upon their privileged preserves.

As for Lex Talionis being a " policy for duly constituted authorities to mete out," do you really want to sit back and let someone else be responsible for your personal protection or that of your business or personal property. It's that kind of indolence that gave rise to the nanny state mentality that is prevalent among so many big government boosters nowadays.

Maybe you should be asking yourself this, would I rather live in a society where free men and women enforce their own laws and take responsibility for policing their own communities, or would you be happier living in some nanny state where the police, not you, decide what measure of protection you may enjoy.


Edited by Ushiwakamaru (12/11/11 04:32 PM)

Top
#465861 - 12/11/11 04:49 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Unknown User]
Delta Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 6750
Loc: Nar
If the mere existence of police means a nanny state, then yeah, nanny state. Of course it doesn't mean that except to anarchists and other lunatics who have gone off the deep end of rationality.

As for justice meted out by the citizens themselves, consider how that would work out for Satanists in Christian America.
_________________________




Top
#465868 - 12/11/11 08:29 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11554
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
The problem is defining who, exactly, is "Jesus." Would it be sufficient if an otherwise unimpressive Jewish preacher lived around that time period and was publicly executed for rabble rousing? That's a drastically abbreviated version of the person described in most texts concerning him; indeed, it seems "Jesus" as a figure is defined by all the things that are obviously not true about him.

In this sense, it's just like what has happened to people like Saint Nicholas, King Midas, and Count (Prince) Dracula. We have evidence of these being real people, but obviously the supernatural stories we tell about them today are pure folklore, built up and "embellished" over many centuries. Even if Santa Claus has his origins in Saint Nicholas of Myra, the details that identify Santa (lives at the North Pole, rides a sled powered by 8 flying reindeer, etc.) are so different that it would be ridiculous to use the two figures interchangeably. This means it's hardly wrong to take the simple position of "Santa Claus doesn't exist"*. Ditto for Jesus. In fact, I'd go a step further here and say that there isn't even much evidence for the person his stories are allegedly based on.

* - No, folks, this isn't a set-up for somebody to sarcastically reply with "Aw, what do you mean Santa isn't real?!?" It's an over-used joke. You're really not as funny as you think you are. Don't do it.
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

(Wenn du Google's ▄bersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)

Top
Page 3 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >


Forum Stats
12171 Members
73 Forums
43938 Topics
405796 Posts

Max Online: 197 @ 10/04/11 06:49 AM
Advertisements