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#465592 - 12/07/11 11:41 PM Lex Talionis Definition
London Offline
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Registered: 02/15/04
Posts: 965
Loc: The Inmost Dens
One pet peeve of mine is listening to people claim Lex Talionis translates as, "Law of the talon." It does not. Lex Talionis translates into English as, "Law of retaliation."

You might think this is obsessive nit-picking, but as Satanists we get enough flak. If we are to be taken seriously we must present ourselves as intelligent, educated, and confident. It is poor lesser magic to appear as though you know nothing about what you are speaking of, especially with a fundamental aspect of your own religion.

No more excuses! Now you know, and knowing is half the battle! grin

lex ta·li·o·nis [leks tal-ee-oh-nis]
noun
the principle or law of retaliation that a punishment inflicted should correspond in degree and kind to the offense of the wrongdoer, as an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth; retributive justice.

Link.

LEX TALIONIS. The law of retaliation an example of which is given in the law of Moses, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, &c.


Link.

The law of retaliation that the punishment should correspond to the crime, as an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Also called talion.

Link.

lex talionis
n
(Law) the law of revenge or retaliation

Link.

Edit: Posted in the wrong section; should be in General!


Edited by London (12/07/11 11:51 PM)
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#465594 - 12/08/11 12:13 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

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Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10118
Moved to general discussion.
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"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#465609 - 12/08/11 08:59 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
London Offline
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Registered: 02/15/04
Posts: 965
Loc: The Inmost Dens
Thanks! smile
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If the enemy of my enemy is my friend, then using logic I can deduce that the friend of my friend is my enemy.

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#465613 - 12/08/11 11:02 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
To supplement your point, "tāliōnis" is the genitive singular of "tāliō", retaliation.

The English word "talon", on the other hand, comes from an Old French word for "heel".
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#465615 - 12/08/11 11:12 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
Bet'phage Offline


Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 194
Loc: Ohio
It's amazing that when Christ came on the scene, he reversed this law and instituted another law: forgiveness and surrender (see Matthew 5:38-42).

The law of forgiveness weakens people by teaching them to be irresponsible for and unrefined in their actions and words, thinking, "O well, it doesn't matter, they have to forgive me anyhow."

Truly shameful.
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#465628 - 12/08/11 12:36 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
London Offline
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Registered: 02/15/04
Posts: 965
Loc: The Inmost Dens
It should be clarified the law of Moses is just one example of Lex Talionis. Retaliation can also be more severe than the offense rather than exactly equal to it; e.g. there are many who would argue a child molester has no right to live even though he never took the life of another.

"The term lex talionis does not always and only refer to literal eye-for-an-eye codes of justice (see rather mirror punishment) but applies to the broader class of legal systems that specify formulaic penalties for specific crimes, which are thought to be fitting in their severity."

Link.

Many people interpret Ghandi's statement that, "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind," was his advocation of forgiveness (and it probably was). My first reaction to hearing it was that if someone took my eye, I'd take their life. Problem solved.
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If the enemy of my enemy is my friend, then using logic I can deduce that the friend of my friend is my enemy.

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#465630 - 12/08/11 01:03 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
MagdaGraham Offline
CoS Priestess

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 13369
Loc: Scotland
Quote:
there are many who would argue a child molester has no right to live even though he never took the life of another.


Because many victims commit suicide or decline into drug abuse. Would you say that they are not murdered?

There is also the pragmatic reason: to prevent the perpetrator from doing it again.
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#465631 - 12/08/11 01:20 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
LordofDarkness Offline
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Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 756
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
I like your explanation.

I think Lex Talionis is justified by the third Satanic Sin, the sixth Satanic Rule of the Earth and the eleventh Satanic Rule of the Earth.

The Satanist does unto others what they do unto the Satanist, the perpetrator is crying out to be relieved of his life and freedom by submitting to stupidity, and the Satanist will destroy the perpetrator AND the threat by means which aren't repercussive such as legal action and self defense.

Does this make sense?
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"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

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#465633 - 12/08/11 01:52 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

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Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10118
I would argue that the punishment must always be more severe than the crime, or else there is no deterrent value.

If I steal $100 from you, and my punishment is only a $100 fine if caught, then I risk nothing. If I am successful I am $100 richer, if caught then I have paid no greater penalty than what I was able to gain anyway.

On the other hand, if theft of $100 led to a year of forced labor, then I might think twice about stealing a wallet.

It is sometimes pointed out that the US retaliatory legal system has led to a high rate of recidivism; I counter that this is not because the concept is flawed, but only the halfassed execution. Singapore, for example, doesn't have a drug problem. Dealers there get hung (literally), in public. Even a complete dumbass can do that math and will avoid coming anywhere near drugs.
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"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#465636 - 12/08/11 02:25 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
ElizabethC. Offline


Registered: 10/31/11
Posts: 37
Originally Posted By: London
there are many who would argue a child molester has no right to live even though he never took the life of another.


There are ways to take another person's life without physically killing them.

Not to mention that child molesters are self-perpetuating--people who have been abused are somewhat likely to become abusers themselves. Therefore, permanently removing child molesters from the general population decreases the number of 'new' child molesters.

However, I don't believe in the death penalty, as you're eliminating a source of cheap labour. Touch a kid and end up doing fieldwork for the rest of your life. I'd also like to offer the families of murder victims the option to have a convicted felon as a sort of slave. They wouldn't be allowed to physically (or mentally) torture your assignee, but that person would be dropped off every morning and picked up every evening (or whenever you wanted them for chores).

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#465638 - 12/08/11 02:41 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
London Offline
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Registered: 02/15/04
Posts: 965
Loc: The Inmost Dens
Although I don't agree with executing someone for using drugs, I do completely agree with your sentiments.

I have a joke I use with criminology majors: "Here, I'll save you four years of school and not even charge you for it: The only way to deter crime is to make the punishment so severe that almost no one would consider risking it."
_________________________
If the enemy of my enemy is my friend, then using logic I can deduce that the friend of my friend is my enemy.

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#465641 - 12/08/11 03:04 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

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Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10118
To clarify, I believe the death penalty is applied to drug dealers. Drug users get some lesser (but still harsh) penalty.

Hardly anyone is hung for dealing anymore. Seems the message came through loud and clear.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#465671 - 12/08/11 08:59 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Liberterius Offline


Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 241
I don't agree with Singapore's punishments for drugs and pornography, (or very strict gun control for that matter) but their corporal punishment and death penalty for kidnapping and child molestation I can completely get behind.

I'd love to see the police beat people here for littering. smile

Reading on Wikipedia; Singapore only had 8 murders in 2007, all of them solved. Out of a country of over 5 million people! Amazing.

6th best healthcare system in the world, least corrupt country in the world.

I'd say the country is a good example of very harsh punishment's working as effective deterrent for crime.

And with their drug laws, at least they put most drug offenders in harsh rehabilitation rather than prison.

I wonder how well the Scandinavian model (not the hot blonde one) of law enforcement works though...putting criminals in comfortable, fancy camping-trip settings.

Hm.

Anyway Lex Talionis is great and Singapore proves it.

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#465690 - 12/09/11 12:27 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Delta Offline
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Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 6747
Loc: Nar
I don't think it always has to be more severe than the crime, so long as better aimed to deter it. The exact inversion is inapplicable in some cases, molesting a molester may only excite and inspire him. One upping a crime in the sense of a year of forced labor for stealing a hundred dollars may be a deterrent, but can create escalation rather than ending it. If one were to face a year of labor for that crime, they may come out with a mind for revenge. If they were executed, then their family might seek the same. That's not to say it's the responsibility of the state to be lenient enough that criminals wont resent it, but that at a certain point severity can become more of a problem than its worth. The most effective punishments are not necessarily the most brutal, but often the best tailored to the individual.

All the above is my excuse to post this:

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#465721 - 12/09/11 11:31 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Delta]
Liberterius Offline


Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 241
That Facebook post is hilarious Delta. XD

Wonder what happened.

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#465730 - 12/09/11 03:46 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Liberterius]
Marie V Offline
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Registered: 10/25/11
Posts: 66
Loc: Estonia
Originally Posted By: Liberterius

I wonder how well the Scandinavian model (not the hot blonde one) of law enforcement works though...putting criminals in comfortable, fancy camping-trip settings.


It doesn't. Living in Scandinavian area myself, I've seen that this "law enforcement" model has no effect whatsoever. Actually crime escalates when the winter comes: many homeless crooks commit a series of smaller fellanies to get a warm place to sleep for a few months and be out for the summer. There was documentary on a womens' correctional facility recently: they get to live in flats. There's a complex of apartment buildings in a closed area, so they have like 4-5 "inmates" in a flat. With all comforts, of course. I nearly planned a bank robbery, it made my apartment look like a s*hole.
How does that supposedly "humane" system serve it's purpose, is what I'd like to know...


Edited by Marie V (12/09/11 03:48 PM)
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#465732 - 12/09/11 04:29 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
Herr_S Offline


Registered: 12/25/08
Posts: 76
Loc: Mordor
I do agree with most of what you're saying but I'm skeptical to the death penalty, I feel it's giving too much power in the hands of the government as well as the possibility (however small) of an innocent being sentenced to a irreversible punishment.
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#465739 - 12/09/11 05:26 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Marie V]
Liberterius Offline


Registered: 01/06/10
Posts: 241
Originally Posted By: Marie V
Originally Posted By: Liberterius

I wonder how well the Scandinavian model (not the hot blonde one) of law enforcement works though...putting criminals in comfortable, fancy camping-trip settings.


It doesn't. Living in Scandinavian area myself, I've seen that this "law enforcement" model has no effect whatsoever. Actually crime escalates when the winter comes: many homeless crooks commit a series of smaller fellanies to get a warm place to sleep for a few months and be out for the summer. There was documentary on a womens' correctional facility recently: they get to live in flats. There's a complex of apartment buildings in a closed area, so they have like 4-5 "inmates" in a flat. With all comforts, of course. I nearly planned a bank robbery, it made my apartment look like a s*hole.
How does that supposedly "humane" system serve it's purpose, is what I'd like to know...


Interesting, yet from what I've read crime is quite low there.

Do you know if many of the criminals are Muslim immigrants, and how many are native Scandinavians, based on your experience at least and the local news?

I've heard most of the rape in Stockholm is from Muslim immigrants.

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#465744 - 12/09/11 06:06 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
Unknown User Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 1511
Originally Posted By: London
Although I don't agree with executing someone for using drugs, I do completely agree with your sentiments.

I have a joke I use with criminology majors: "Here, I'll save you four years of school and not even charge you for it: The only way to deter crime is to make the punishment so severe that almost no one would consider risking it."


And under British Common Law there were eight felonies all punishable by death, yet people still committed those eight felonies.

A criminal will commit a crime regardless of the severity of the punishment because of their defective brains. Cause and effect do not factor into it.

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#465747 - 12/09/11 07:21 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
ElizabethC. Offline


Registered: 10/31/11
Posts: 37
Also, a great number of homicides happen in the heat of the moment, when people aren't thinking clearly, or are committed by people who don't think they'll get caught, so they have no reason to worry about the death penalty or incarcertation. OR through involvement with drugs, where dealers and such are protecting their business. Money makes people do stupid things.

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#465753 - 12/09/11 11:02 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: ElizabethC.]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10118
I've never bought this line of thinking.

I have certainly lost my temper, but I've never struck someone nor destroyed property, even my own, out of rage. I don't even think you could fairly say that I'm a gentle person - I simply don't permit myself to do stupid shit out of anger, because I was never allowed to think that this is acceptable.

The problem is not human nature, nor is it uncontrollable emotions, but a lack of indotrinated consequences for unacceptable behavior.

When I refrain from stealing, I don't have to weigh the consequences against the gain, nor do I have to remind myself of my ethical obligation. When I show common courtesy in public, I need not calculate the risk vs benefit of doing so. These things are "no brainers" because they were (correctly) indoctrinated in me from youth.

Similarly, a housebroken dog isn't weighing the possible punishment against the pleasure of shitting on the floor all day, he already understands what he should and should not do and abides it. Even a relatively dimwitted dog can be housebroken with no need to understand why he cannot shit on the floor.

The problem is simple: some people aren't housebroken and do far worse than shit on the floor. Proper indoctrination corrects this, and the simplest way is to make it unthinkable to do otherwise, and to address the issue at its root.

I seriously doubt Singaporeans frequently have to stop themselves from spitting on the sidewalk or pissing on the floor of public bathrooms; it seems far more likely that the penal system has removed the possibility from their mental options altogether. Brutal punishment rarely need be meted out at all once this sets in.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#465754 - 12/10/11 12:33 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Bet'phage Offline


Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 194
Loc: Ohio
And, at this late stage in the game, probably the only way they will get housebroken is to have confrontations with other housebroken people who teach them by example how to hold it while scurrying out of the backdoor. (Who we spend time with matters!) This will probably include some painful figuring out, and perhaps even brutal personal adjustments, on their part.

But who has the patience or the time to indoctrinate such a one? Hopefully, by being around other law abiding people, it will occur through osmosis (and a good kick now and then)? But will they be perceptive enough to hang around sensible and rational people? Probably not.
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#465756 - 12/10/11 02:23 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10562
Loc: England
>> I have a joke I use with criminology majors: "Here, I'll save you four years of school and not even charge you for it: The only way to deter crime is to make the punishment so severe that almost no one would consider risking it." <<


The normally aspirited human being would logically weigh up the options, yes.

But such penalties have never been successful in resolving crime throughout history. Human nature is infinitely more animalistic than anyone wants to believe. Take away society as we know it and there is no crime. Only the struggle for supremacy. Take away the restraints and the "lunatics" would completely take over the asylum.

Use of drugs is almost certainly an attempted escape from society.

or...

Maybe most of the mental illness we see in society is a symptom of human beings being forced to live in an unnatural state.


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#465761 - 12/10/11 04:12 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Liberterius]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1812
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: Liberterius

I wonder how well the Scandinavian model (not the hot blonde one) of law enforcement works though...putting criminals in comfortable, fancy camping-trip settings.


I think that, just like the welfare-state, initially it worked ok. The thinking behind both ideas was that treating people nicely when they are down on their luck and getting them back to being productive members of society is a good thing, because leaving them down there would make things worse.

But as with all kinds of friendly attitude, sooner or later cynical behaviour gets the upper hand. 14 years for murder under those circumstances does not sound that bad to a hardened criminal, and for the current gang-culture around here it's more seen as a career opportunity than actual punishment.

You can see a similar trend with out weapon laws. Historically we have had lower death rates compared to the US, but lately it is getting closer to the old saying "When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns", drug- and gang-related shootings, which were almost unheard of ten or twenty years ago are becoming common.

So - the Scandinavian system works well in a homogeneous, somewhat isolated small society with a lot of equality, because the incentives to become a criminal are few, and the chance to get back into society is good.

In our modern global world, it's just an open invitation for more hardened criminals to come here and operate.
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#465762 - 12/10/11 05:07 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Liberterius]
Marie V Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/25/11
Posts: 66
Loc: Estonia
Originally Posted By: Liberterius

Interesting, yet from what I've read crime is quite low there.

Do you know if many of the criminals are Muslim immigrants, and how many are native Scandinavians, based on your experience at least and the local news?

I've heard most of the rape in Stockholm is from Muslim immigrants.


It's not necessarily Muslims, but - as much as it pains me to say it - immigrants (be it legal or not) overall. Since the punishment is second to none...there is virtually nothing to lose when commiting a crime.
The crime is generally low because GDP per capita is pretty high, the only ones who feel the need to commit crimes are immigrants who don't know how or want to put themselves to use or those just a bit messed up upstairs. And occasionally some government officials, but nothing is ever done to them.
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#465763 - 12/10/11 06:30 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Liberterius]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1812
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: Liberterius

Do you know if many of the criminals are Muslim immigrants, and how many are native Scandinavians, based on your experience at least and the local news?

I've heard most of the rape in Stockholm is from Muslim immigrants.


Crime statistics, even when corrected for social factors, seems to suggest that immigrants from the middle east do figure more often in there than the native or immigrants from other areas.

This is of course highly controversial and often disputed by the left wing/humanists.

There is a new trend which has emerged during the last decade of criminals coming from eastern Europe. These people aren't really immigrants, they are more like "criminals on tour" in that they come here, commit crimes, then go back or in the worst case caught, warned and thrown on a bus back to their own country. The local wit have even named the special shopping bags they carry to avoid detectors in shops "Russian-bags" or "Rumanian-bags".

Lately thought they seem to have turned towards violent crimes aimed at people in their own homes. Since this kind of crime is not native to the area, police is not geared towards protecting rural areas, and they thrive on that.

I think however that there is a distinction here between the two groups in that the muslim immigrants have the social security net available to them, as well as state sponsored education. The criminals who take advantage of the more relaxed border-control inside the EU probably have very little to loose. Both groups are criminals, but with different motivations.
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#465765 - 12/10/11 07:23 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Bet'phage]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
Originally Posted By: Bet'phage
It's amazing that when Christ came on the scene, he reversed this law and instituted another law: forgiveness and surrender (see Matthew 5:38-42).


Priestcraft!

There is no historical evidence of this person.

What do you think of the following wording?

It's amazing that when the claims of the Christ came about, these teachings sought a reversal of this law and instituted another law: forgiveness and surrender (see Matthew 5:38-42).
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#465767 - 12/10/11 09:12 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Lust]
Bet'phage Offline


Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 194
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: Tier Instinct
It's amazing that when the claims of the Christ came about, these teachings sought a reversal of this law and instituted another law: forgiveness and surrender (see Matthew 5:38-42).


Why yes! It's a much better way of saying it. Perhaps "Christ-myth" may be an even better phrase. As in:

"When the Christ-myth was invented, one result was that the old law of retribution was reversed to become a new law of forgiveness and surrender." smile
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#465768 - 12/10/11 09:32 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Bet'phage]
Zaftig Offline
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Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
You both give early Christians far too much credit; in order to have invented, in its entirety, the Jesus-story it would have been a colossal effort, organization, and propaganda dispersed over persons spanning 300 hundred years, in different areas and social status, with solely ancient means of communication.

Right. That truly would have been a miracle.

Far more likely that Jesus was an actual person. Evidence suggests he was pushing for Jewish reforms, in a turbulent and troublesome province far off in the Roman empire. Judeah had several such reformers. The texts about Jesus were simply the ones that survived. Early Jewish followers of Jesus eventually became gentile followers of Jesus, and slowly it grew.

Just like every other damn religion on the planet.

In my opinion, it is a modern emotional response to claim that Jesus never existed based on resentment towards current Christian influence.

No one ever claims that Zeus was a conspiracy, because Zeus followers never impose their ideas on others.


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#465770 - 12/10/11 10:05 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: LordofDarkness]
Unknown User Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 1511
Legal action?

Please, the law is not concerned with "justice." Text book example being that pharmacist who executed one of the thieves who tried to rob him. Was that justice? Yes, from the standpoint of Lex Talionis it was, but was it legal? No friggin' way. For exacting Lex Talionus, this man had his life destroyed.

It is important to remember that the "law" does not care about the average citizen. All it cares about is maintaining its sole privilege to punish. If a citizen tries to usurp that power via Lex Talionis, that citizen then becomes an enemy of the "law" and is dealt with accordingly.



Edited by Ushiwakamaru (12/10/11 10:06 AM)

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#465776 - 12/10/11 10:49 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Zaftig]
Bet'phage Offline


Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 194
Loc: Ohio
The "Christ-myth," as I put it, certainly has a more complex development than I was aiming to convey with my brief comment.

This is an entire branch of study in itself, and I would certainly not want to diminish the hard detective work those scholars exhibit who try to figure it out. (Or would I?)

My use of "myth" is not the variety of Zeus, but that of a (possible) historic personage, whose story his followers begin to embellish until the critical point of declaring that personage a hero, to one degree or another.

The bishops (Council of Nicaea, 325 C.E.) who validated the judgement (it was an existing belief in some quarters before the Council) that this Christ character was "God," and defined exactly what that meant, is the epitome of such embellishment, but it took 300 years to get there. A lot happens in 300 years and this becomes somewhat hard to trace.

His actual life (had it existed as such) would not necessarily resemble the embellishment at all. The personage involved in such a myth (embellishment) may be surprised at the end result, were they able to come back to the land of the living and "read their story."
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#465780 - 12/10/11 11:18 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
ElizabethC. Offline


Registered: 10/31/11
Posts: 37
Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
The problem is not human nature, nor is it uncontrollable emotions, but a lack of indoctrinated consequences for unacceptable behavior.


I agree completely--it's about modelled behaviour. As long as children are born to and raised by people who are neither emotionally, intellectually or financially prepared to raise children, there will always be criminals. For example, after birth control and abortion were legalised, crime rates dropped.

If kids are raised in an atmosphere of restraint, the vast majority of them are going to become adults who will not commit crimes. This is why it's unusual to see kids from happy homes committing crimes.

Personally, I'd like people to have to pass a test before being allowed to procreate. The result would be a further drop in crime.

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#465800 - 12/10/11 03:25 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Unknown User]
Delta Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 6747
Loc: Nar
Originally Posted By: Ushiwakamaru
Please, the law is not concerned with "justice."


Of course it is. You just don't agree with its application.

Originally Posted By: Ushiwakamaru
Text book example being that pharmacist who executed one of the thieves who tried to rob him. Was that justice? Yes, from the standpoint of Lex Talionis it was


No, that was a man shooting another man and not for self defense. Lex Talionis would involve the state punishing the criminal with severity in accordance to his crime. As the pharmacist performed a non-state sanctioned execution without trial, or "murder", Lex would have him executed.

Lex Talionis does not mean justice any more than any other law. In its original application it meant lessening the punishment from "with interest" and limiting it to something fitting the crime. As in not killing someone for a robbery.

Originally Posted By: Ushiwakamaru
the "law" does not care about the average citizen


Neither do we, if that's an appeal to emotion. The law is concerned with maintaining order and securing as just a fate as possible for those who violate it. It is not a being with free will that has any such concerns, unless you mean "The Law" as in the antiquated western term for lawmen. Your gripe is then with the corruption of those people, not with the set legal term.

Either way, you only propose another, harsher law. Maybe a castle doctrine that says revenge is also on the table beyond defense.

Originally Posted By: Ushiwakamaru
If a citizen tries to usurp that power via Lex Talionis, that citizen then becomes an enemy of the "law" and is dealt with accordingly.


That pharmacist shot a man 5 times in the head as he laid on the floor. This is illegal. If Lex Talionis applied, it would still be illegal, and that man would have 5 bullets in his skull. Lex Talionis is not a way to usurp power, it is not the same as vigilantism and is quite unrelated to self defense (except on a societal level).

Self defense is legal, with fatal results if necessary. The reason pharmacist is in prison because shooting an unconscious body 5 times was deemed not necessary to defend himself.
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#465802 - 12/10/11 03:51 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
The problem is not human nature, nor is it uncontrollable emotions, but a lack of indotrinated consequences for unacceptable behavior.


Indoctrinated, predictable, consistent consequences.

And, yeah, I think it's partly that, and partly a lack of training and education, especially in the areas of general decision-making and self-control.

Not only do people have to know and appreciate the consequences of their actions--and be able to trust that these consequences will be predictable and consistent--but they also need to have the means and the knowledge necessary to select and utilize the proper behavior from a wider "toolbox" of options, and the confidence in their own ability to use the "tool" they've selected competently and effectively.

To use your housebreaking analogy, you need to teach dogs to shit in the yard, and not in the house--in essence, you need to teach "DO shit here," as well as "DON'T shit there." This means you need to give them a doggie door, or take them for regular walks, to ensure that they won't shit in the house. If they shit in the house, you need to scold them, and put them in time-out, immediately, every single time they do it. And, of course, when they're little puppies, you have to go positively apeshit with joy and praise when they shit outside, so they know they did right, and are motivated to do it again.

If you keep the dog locked indoors all day long; if you giggle the first time he shits inside; if you freak out about the dog shitting, period; if you beat the dog one day for shitting on the rug, and ignore him the next; you'll have a dog who shits in the house.

The procedure's basically the same, and the mistakes are the same, whether you're working with animals, children, or rehabilitatable criminals.

Originally Posted By: verszou
So - the Scandinavian system works well in a homogeneous, somewhat isolated small society with a lot of equality, because the incentives to become a criminal are few, and the chance to get back into society is good.


Two ideas stand out here:

First, one size doesn't fit all. What works in one culture may need to be tweaked or altered, at least, before being applied in another, and cultures may have to alter their approach in different ways as they evolve and shift over time.

Second, human behavior is motivated by pushes and pulls--we push away from what we don't want, and are pulled towards what we do.

You have to consider what people--in this case, different types of criminals--want, as well as what they don't, and apply the carrot and the stick accordingly, in the proper amounts and ratios.
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#465811 - 12/10/11 06:08 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Zaftig]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11535
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: Zaftig
in order to have invented, in its entirety, the Jesus-story it would have been a colossal effort, organization, and propaganda dispersed over persons spanning 300 hundred years,
[...]
Far more likely that Jesus was an actual person.

Those aren't the only two possibilities, though. I don't believe the myth to be a carefully planned, premeditated invention, but I don't believe that Jesus was an actual historical figure either.

My own research on the topic has led me to conclude that Jesus was rather a combination of several different figures, some real (Apollonius of Tyana, Yeishu ben Pandeira/ha-notzri, ben Stada, etc.) some fictional (Mithra, Prometheus, Tammuz-Osiris, etc.).

Suggested sites:
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com
http://www.jesuspuzzle.org
http://mama.indstate.edu/users/nizrael/jesusrefutation.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/christianity/historicity.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/thallus.html
http://www.amazon.com/Mythmaker-Paul-Invention-Christianity/dp/0062505858/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSzQC1zKesU
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen048.html

Quote:
In my opinion, it is a modern emotional response to claim that Jesus never existed based on resentment towards current Christian influence.

For some people, I'm sure that fuels some of it. There's some unfounded stuff out there like "Zeitgeist". But there's still a vast difference in amount of confirming historical evidence for somebody like Julius Caesar or George Washington, and somebody like Jesus or even Pythagoras.

Using Pythagoras as an example, he left no known personal writings or artifacts, there's very little (if just one) independent sources of information on him. Even then, it was written by somebody else, it was written years after he allegedly existed, and it's filled with a lot of obviously fictional stories that involved miracles. Similarly, the only sources we have for Jesus are the Gospels, most of which just copy from Matthew, and were all written years after Jesus' alleged death (especially the Book of John).

Of course, this isn't the reason I reject Christianity. I reject it on philosophical grounds, not historical. And I got into this topic of the historical Jesus decades after I made that decision.
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#465821 - 12/10/11 08:55 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Bill_M]
Bet'phage Offline


Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 194
Loc: Ohio
That's certainly a lot of reading you've provided in the links. Thanks. I hope it proves interesting. (How could it not?)
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#465823 - 12/10/11 09:13 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Delta]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 756
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
Originally Posted By: Delta
Originally Posted By: Ushiwakamaru
Please, the law is not concerned with "justice."


Of course it is. You just don't agree with its application.

Originally Posted By: Ushiwakamaru
Text book example being that pharmacist who executed one of the thieves who tried to rob him. Was that justice? Yes, from the standpoint of Lex Talionis it was



Precisely what I meant. Thank you Delta!
No, that was a man shooting another man and not for self defense. Lex Talionis would involve the state punishing the criminal with severity in accordance to his crime. As the pharmacist performed a non-state sanctioned execution without trial, or "murder", Lex would have him executed.

Lex Talionis does not mean justice any more than any other law. In its original application it meant lessening the punishment from "with interest" and limiting it to something fitting the crime. As in not killing someone for a robbery.

Originally Posted By: Ushiwakamaru
the "law" does not care about the average citizen


Neither do we, if that's an appeal to emotion. The law is concerned with maintaining order and securing as just a fate as possible for those who violate it. It is not a being with free will that has any such concerns, unless you mean "The Law" as in the antiquated western term for lawmen. Your gripe is then with the corruption of those people, not with the set legal term.

Either way, you only propose another, harsher law. Maybe a castle doctrine that says revenge is also on the table beyond defense.

Originally Posted By: Ushiwakamaru
If a citizen tries to usurp that power via Lex Talionis, that citizen then becomes an enemy of the "law" and is dealt with accordingly.


That pharmacist shot a man 5 times in the head as he laid on the floor. This is illegal. If Lex Talionis applied, it would still be illegal, and that man would have 5 bullets in his skull. Lex Talionis is not a way to usurp power, it is not the same as vigilantism and is quite unrelated to self defense (except on a societal level).

Self defense is legal, with fatal results if necessary. The reason pharmacist is in prison because shooting an unconscious body 5 times was deemed not necessary to defend himself.


Precisely what I meant. Thank you Delta!

The legal action I meant would be Retaliation through the assistance of the law. If I was that pharmacist, I would make sure the robber didn't shoot me, then as he left I would be calling the police, filing a report, etc until the idiot ends up in jail.

The Satanist would take care to not make decisions that would have hindering repercussive results.


Edited by LordofDarkness (12/10/11 09:30 PM)
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#465837 - 12/11/11 08:44 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Zaftig]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
Citizen London - Your post is a good one and it was not my intention to start a topic outside of yours. My response is warranted though.

Originally Posted By: Zaftig

In my opinion, it is a modern emotional response to claim that Jesus never existed based on resentment towards current Christian influence.


Good point. I say that the response comes from the lack of proof and promotion of faith. Not sure if Reverend Bill_M posted this one but it is a page that I enjoyed. http://nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

Originally Posted By: Zaftig
No one ever claims that Zeus was a conspiracy, because Zeus followers never impose their ideas on others.


Sure they do. The following is focused on Hercules though and mentions his father, Zeus. smile

From the same website.

" IF JESUS, THEN WHY NOT HERCULES?

If a person accepts hearsay and accounts from believers as historical evidence for Jesus, then shouldn't they act consistently to other accounts based solely on hearsay and belief?

To take one example, examine the evidence for Hercules of Greek mythology and you will find it parallels the "historicity" of Jesus to such an amazing degree that for Christian apologists to deny Hercules as a historical person belies and contradicts the very same methodology used for a historical Jesus.

Note that Herculean myth resembles Jesus in many areas. The mortal and chaste Alcmene, the mother of Hercules, gave birth to him from a union with God (Zeus). Similar to Herod who wanted to kill Jesus, Hera wanted to kill Hercules. Like Jesus, Hercules traveled the earth as a mortal helping mankind and performed miraculous deeds. Similar to Jesus who died and rose to heaven, Hercules died, rose to Mt. Olympus and became a god. Hercules gives example of perhaps the most popular hero in Ancient Greece and Rome. They believed that he actually lived, told stories about him, worshiped him, and dedicated temples to him."
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#465841 - 12/11/11 09:44 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Lust]
Bet'phage Offline


Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 194
Loc: Ohio
Edited: In retrospect, a fairly useless post.


Edited by Bet'phage (12/11/11 11:19 AM)
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#465854 - 12/11/11 02:14 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Bill_M]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10118
Funny that Tier Instinct compares Jesus to Hercules, because that was exactly what I intended to do.

When you remove the obviously fabricated stories surrounding either figure, you're left with very, very little. To wit:

- An ancient Greek warrior hero and strongman whose exploits were renowned.
- An ancient Jewish preacher whose exploits were renowned.

The problem is defining who, exactly, is "Jesus." Would it be sufficient if an otherwise unimpressive Jewish preacher lived around that time period and was publicly executed for rabble rousing? That's a drastically abbreviated version of the person described in most texts concerning him; indeed, it seems "Jesus" as a figure is defined by all the things that are obviously not true about him. If you accept that such a whittled down version of the figure was probably real, then why not Hercules, or Thor, or any other renowned mythological figure?

It's also almost indisputably the case that there was a conspiracy to promote the image of Jesus. The Roman Catholic Church cherry picked which texts would be accepted as "real" and cobbled together their version of the figure, then enforced that version violently, suppressing and even killing off dissidents. If that's not a conspiracy, I'm not sure what is.

For my part, so far as I know there are next to no reliable third party accounts that even mention Jesus - quite an oversight given how allegedly significant he was, and how meticulous Romans were at keeping records. Jesus is too reminescent of other mythological figures for it to be coincidence, and in the absence of proof of anyone like him, I can only conclude that most likely (like so much else in Christianity) he's a co-oped, renamed and repurposed figure from other cults.
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#465855 - 12/11/11 02:34 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: LordofDarkness]
Unknown User Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 1511
Well if you just don't get it, you just don't get it.

The criminal justice system is a business. As such, it needs to make a profit in order to stay in business. If people aren't breaking the law, then the massive cj machinery will slowly grind to a halt and a vast number of people will suddenly find themselves redundant and unemployed. To make sure this doesn't happen, legislators keep passing laws designed to strip you of your liberties. Think of the cj industry as a giant furnace that must be constantly stoked with human fuel in order for it to keep burning.

As for not being concerned with rights of ordinary citizens, well I got news for you, that's just what we all are. Your little red card doesn't grant any more rights under the Constitution than non-members, so you may want to "get over" yourselves with that line of thinking.

As for the Castle Doctrine, this is a law that is in effect in certain states that says if someone enters your property without your permission, you have the legal right to shoot them.

Also, self defense is an affirmative defense, which means that if the defendant intends on using it, he/she then shifts the burden from the prosecution onto themselves. Unlike the prosecution, which must prove all elements of a crime BRD, the defendant merely needs to raise in the minds of the jurors "reasonable doubt" in order to be able to be acquitted using such a defense.


Edited by Ushiwakamaru (12/11/11 02:54 PM)

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#465858 - 12/11/11 02:50 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Unknown User]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Quote:
as for the Castle Doctrine, this is a law that is in effect in certain states that says if someone enters your property without your permission, you have the legal right to shoot them.

That is not lex talionis. It's the Castle Doctrine. Whatever the merits of the Castle Doctrine, it's a separate doctrine. Lex talionis applies only where self-defense is not at stake.

Lex talionis means the punishment should fit the crime in degree and, where appropriate, in kind. No less than an eye for an eye, but also, no more than an eye for an eye. Executing someone for stealing is not a match of degree.

Lex talionis is a policy for duly constituted authorities to mete out. It doesn't permit vigilantes to make summary executions. That's murder.
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#465860 - 12/11/11 03:29 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: reprobate]
Unknown User Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 1511
Yes, well I was not the one who originally brought up the Castle Doctrine. I merely gave a very brief synopsis of the term.

As for the punishment fitting the crime, that would be up to the individual in question's personal preference. Would castrating a rapist be an example of Lex Talionis? Certainly, if that form of punishment seemed an appropriate one for the victim to mete out. Would shooting some unconscious scumbag five times in the head be another example? Sure it would. Was it legal? Obviously not, but it was nonetheless a form of justice meted out in proportion to the severity of the crime.

The problem with vigilance committees, at least from the perspective of the cj industry, are that they cut the middlemen, the cops, judges, and jailers, out of the equation. If citizens are allowed to handle such things on their own, then what need would there be for those cops, judges, and jailers? They would be, as I said in my previous post, made redundant. This is why the cj industry hates, with an abiding passion, anyone who dares encroach upon their privileged preserves.

As for Lex Talionis being a " policy for duly constituted authorities to mete out," do you really want to sit back and let someone else be responsible for your personal protection or that of your business or personal property. It's that kind of indolence that gave rise to the nanny state mentality that is prevalent among so many big government boosters nowadays.

Maybe you should be asking yourself this, would I rather live in a society where free men and women enforce their own laws and take responsibility for policing their own communities, or would you be happier living in some nanny state where the police, not you, decide what measure of protection you may enjoy.


Edited by Ushiwakamaru (12/11/11 04:32 PM)

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#465861 - 12/11/11 04:49 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Unknown User]
Delta Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 6747
Loc: Nar
If the mere existence of police means a nanny state, then yeah, nanny state. Of course it doesn't mean that except to anarchists and other lunatics who have gone off the deep end of rationality.

As for justice meted out by the citizens themselves, consider how that would work out for Satanists in Christian America.
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#465868 - 12/11/11 08:29 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11535
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: Hagen von Tronje
The problem is defining who, exactly, is "Jesus." Would it be sufficient if an otherwise unimpressive Jewish preacher lived around that time period and was publicly executed for rabble rousing? That's a drastically abbreviated version of the person described in most texts concerning him; indeed, it seems "Jesus" as a figure is defined by all the things that are obviously not true about him.

In this sense, it's just like what has happened to people like Saint Nicholas, King Midas, and Count (Prince) Dracula. We have evidence of these being real people, but obviously the supernatural stories we tell about them today are pure folklore, built up and "embellished" over many centuries. Even if Santa Claus has his origins in Saint Nicholas of Myra, the details that identify Santa (lives at the North Pole, rides a sled powered by 8 flying reindeer, etc.) are so different that it would be ridiculous to use the two figures interchangeably. This means it's hardly wrong to take the simple position of "Santa Claus doesn't exist"*. Ditto for Jesus. In fact, I'd go a step further here and say that there isn't even much evidence for the person his stories are allegedly based on.

* - No, folks, this isn't a set-up for somebody to sarcastically reply with "Aw, what do you mean Santa isn't real?!?" It's an over-used joke. You're really not as funny as you think you are. Don't do it.
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#465869 - 12/11/11 08:30 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Bet'phage]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11535
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: Bet'phage
That's certainly a lot of reading you've provided in the links. Thanks. I hope it proves interesting. (How could it not?)

The first link gives a pretty good outline of the common arguments and why they don't work. The third link really expands upon those points. You might want to start with that one first.
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#465876 - 12/11/11 10:18 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Unknown User]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Maybe you should be asking yourself this, would I rather live in a society where free men and women enforce their own laws and take responsibility for policing their own communities, or would you be happier living in some nanny state where the police, not you, decide what measure of protection you may enjoy.

I'd rather live in a state where there was some kind of consensus, formed by a procedure that allowed loyal dissent, and everyone who was a party to that consensus pooled their resources to enforce it. In other words, a liberal democracy. If you're on the wrong side of that consensus, then you're my enemy.

Enjoy your straw men and false dilemmas.


Edited by reprobate (12/11/11 10:20 PM)
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#465886 - 12/12/11 06:55 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
Alonocus Blight Offline

CoS_Member

Registered: 10/31/11
Posts: 208
Loc: NC
London, thank you for the thorough definition of the phrase, "Lex Talionis." I'd often heard Satanists use this phrase and I like its sound but did not know its true meaning. Thank you for explaining the law of retaliation / revenge.
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#465898 - 12/12/11 09:56 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
Quote:

It's also almost indisputably the case that there was a conspiracy to promote the image of Jesus. The Roman Catholic Church cherry picked which texts would be accepted as "real" and cobbled together their version of the figure, then enforced that version violently, suppressing and even killing off dissidents. If that's not a conspiracy, I'm not sure what is.


Yes. Three hundred years after the fact, as the Catholic church itself was being formed, and formed as a response to an increasingly growing Jesus movement in the Roman empire, wherein more and more aristocracy are converting. The other books still exist; the apocryphal and pseudepigraphical texts depict Jesus in various ways (gnostic, Jewish, etc.).

I interpret this differently than you; this suggests that there was indeed a single source, however distorted, reinterpreted through additions and omissions, or suppressed it may be. It is evidence only of later propaganda, not relevant to the historical Jesus.
Quote:

For my part, so far as I know there are next to no reliable third party accounts that even mention Jesus - quite an oversight given how allegedly significant he was, and how meticulous Romans were at keeping records


He was not significant. Not in the least. And the Romans did not bother with records of the troublesome Jews. Why would they? They were beneath contempt, merely tolerated until they tried to usurp Roman rule, to which the response was then to crush them as quickly and ruthlessly as possible.

At the time of his death, he had accomplished nothing but being a pain in the ass to local authorities, whose primary concern was keeping the peace with all the bickering Jews. There would be no reason whatsoever to mark his death.

I cannot stress the importance of surviving texts in this context. The very earliest Christian documents, which are the letters of Paul (~60), were entirely unconcerned with the biographical information of Jesus. He assumes his audience already knows. If Jesus were a complete fabrication, would not the earliest texts attempt to create a fuller picture of Jesus? Paul spends most of his time denouncing other Jesus followers (whose texts we do not have).

In this period, there were other Jewish preachers, several Judaisms, all of them warring with each other. Jesus fits here as one of the many sectarian preachers.

We have very few primary source surviving texts from any of these groups. If someone had found the Dead Sea Scrolls two thousand years ago instead of ~50, then we might be discussing its contents and the historical validity of the "Teacher of Righteousness" (the prime religious leader in the texts produce at Qumran).

The text itself is the very reason that the story survived. If every copy had been lost or destroyed, he would be a vague legend that only historians would know about.

I have certainly voiced this opinion before, and may again.

Call it professional duty.

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#465913 - 12/12/11 02:54 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
It may have already been mentioned; but, I wonder if it would be beneficial to discuss the difference between Lex Talionis on a personal level, and as used in the essay "Pentagonal Revisionism".

I mention that because...and not to suggest that anyone is implying this...there are legal limitations to what an individual can and cannot do to achieve retribution. This is quite often one of the first things a CoS agent has to straighten out. Seems a lot of people are fascinated by the ideas of revenge and curses. I find that quite telling, by the way.

I know what I "should" be able to do to someone. I also know what could land me in prison. I suppose it's a good thing our religion discusses the ritual chamber.
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#465914 - 12/12/11 03:05 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Bet'phage Offline


Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 194
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: Roho_the_Rooster
I know what I "should" be able to do to someone. I also know what could land me in prison. I suppose it's a good thing our religion discusses the ritual chamber.


Agreed. As far as curses go (its always easier to destroy than to create or contribute), I have seen the Ritual Chamber as a place of retribution, among other things, where vengeance can exhaust itself.
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#466003 - 12/13/11 02:41 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Zaftig]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11535
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: Zaftig
If Jesus were a complete fabrication, would not the earliest texts attempt to create a fuller picture of Jesus?

Not necessarily. Again, it's not like the only two choices are "He was real" or "His story was purposely contrived and made-up in one sitting". It has more of an urban myth ring to it.
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#466074 - 12/14/11 11:31 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Bill_M]
Marie V Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/25/11
Posts: 66
Loc: Estonia
Originally Posted By: Bill_M
Originally Posted By: Zaftig
If Jesus were a complete fabrication, would not the earliest texts attempt to create a fuller picture of Jesus?

Not necessarily. Again, it's not like the only two choices are "He was real" or "His story was purposely contrived and made-up in one sitting". It has more of an urban myth ring to it.


As far as I know, it can be proven that Jesus really was a physically existing person but I believe the character as such was created later on..
There's quite the theory about all that in "Holy Blood and Holy Grail" by Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh and Henry Lincoln.
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#466077 - 12/14/11 12:26 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Marie V]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11535
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: Marie V
As far as I know, it can be proven that Jesus really was a physically existing person

I hear people make this claim, but I've seen no evidence of it.
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#466080 - 12/14/11 01:03 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Marie V]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Actually, there is no evidence. The gospels can't count, because they do not stand up to any serious historical analysis. The Josephus mention of an historical Jesus of Nazareth was clearly added later.

The glaringly obvious explanation for the Jesus stories is that the period was rife with such stories. Seriously, you couldn't turn the corner without hearing about some man/god. It was a cultural reference that took on a life of its own, not unlike the modern 2012 Mayan craze. Things were changing, so, of course, it was the end of the world...enter the man/god(s).
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#466125 - 12/15/11 12:11 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Marie V Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/25/11
Posts: 66
Loc: Estonia
Hm...interesting point..as I said before there's quite the theory about all that in "Holy Blood and Holy Grail" by Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh and Henry Lincoln. And they support their thesis on historical documents and contradictions in evangeliums. Also proving that Jesus of NAZARETH was a lie, yes, but there is supposedly a whole another concept. I got to give it to them, although a bit conspiracious at times, they were pretty convincing. Of course whether their analysis was right or not doesn't change anything for anybody, Atheists don't care and Christians refuse to believe it anyway. I have to say that yes, I'm acclining to agree about him not existing, but...damn that book had some good points.
This is all hypothetical of course, I couldn't care less whether or not Jesus really excisted, the Christ-philosophy is unacceptable to me either way. But it's a neat story.
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#466126 - 12/15/11 12:40 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Marie V]
$lesk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/29/02
Posts: 2318
Loc: Norway
Originally Posted By: Marie V
Hm...interesting point..as I said before there's quite the theory about all that in "Holy Blood and Holy Grail" by Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh and Henry Lincoln. And they support their thesis on historical documents and contradictions in evangeliums. Also proving that Jesus of NAZARETH was a lie, yes, but there is supposedly a whole another concept. I got to give it to them, although a bit conspiracious at times, they were pretty convincing.


Actually, almost every single claim in that book has been debunked.
As a history book "Holy Blood..." is a travesty.
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#466163 - 12/15/11 02:44 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: $lesk]
Marie V Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/25/11
Posts: 66
Loc: Estonia
Originally Posted By: $lesk

Actually, almost every single claim in that book has been debunked.
As a history book "Holy Blood..." is a travesty.


Yes, so I've heard. My point was that I thought they did a fairly good job at that thesis of theirs. But - to be honest - it doesn't really matter, because like you pointed out, it still is unreliable as a history book. It was an interesting read, at least for me, even if it was to be taken as fiction from the beginning. Had it's moments, but it's not like it's some unchallengeable source of truth. Au contraire. There will always be the prove-debunk "race" going on in regards of said topic. And quite frankly - I don't give a crap about the outcome. At least as long as some unspeakable horror isn't unleashed.
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#466444 - 12/19/11 07:28 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: London]
Bet'phage Offline


Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 194
Loc: Ohio
Here is a good example:

"Vandals, those who destroy and deface objects and property other than their own, should, when apprehended, be destroyed, or at least punished in a fitting manner. If a painting hanging in a museum is slashed, the perpetrator of that act should be eviscerated. If paint is used to deface, the defacer's countenance should be permanently dyed in an irregular and repellent manner. If a carefully tended shrub or plant is wantonly ripped out by the roots, the culprit's arm should be ripped out of its socket.... They cry out by their acts to be destroyed" (The Devil's Notebook, 97).
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#467402 - 01/04/12 09:10 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: MagdaGraham]
x9x Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/10/04
Posts: 958
Loc: Flanders - Europe
Originally Posted By: MagdaGraham
Quote:
there are many who would argue a child molester has no right to live even though he never took the life of another.


Because many victims commit suicide or decline into drug abuse. Would you say that they are not murdered?

There is also the pragmatic reason: to prevent the perpetrator from doing it again.

Totally true!
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#467433 - 01/04/12 04:20 PM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Quote:
I would argue that the punishment must always be more severe than the crime, or else there is no deterrent value.

If I steal $100 from you, and my punishment is only a $100 fine if caught, then I risk nothing. If I am successful I am $100 richer, if caught then I have paid no greater penalty than what I was able to gain anyway.

On the other hand, if theft of $100 led to a year of forced labor, then I might think twice about stealing a wallet.


True. But I think the legal system isn't designed to prevent crime but rather give justice to those who crimes are committed against. Even in states where there is a death penalty crimes are still committed that cause people to be put to death. Though it does lower the crime rate it still won't fully prevent it.

Not all criminals would think things through but harsher consequences wouldn't hurt either.
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#467468 - 01/05/12 10:49 AM Re: Lex Talionis Definition [Re: Unknown]
nicksofar Offline
Idiot

Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 267
Loc: Athens
Here is myt definition of Lex talionis:

'It is a universal truth that an action will bring an opposite reaction. The person’s actions will bring him/her positive or negative consequences. Doing stupid things will bring you negative outcomes, and above all, if you repeat them, you automatically drop yourself in a Earthly Hell.
Just think some negative aspects of your life, and you will see that all are the reactions of this universal truth. Yes my friend, betrayal left you alone, stupidity gave you a bad name inside your cycle, laziness filled you with emptiness, lack of exercise, made you fat; blind and without reason violence resulted to a criminal record, all these consequences are result of the undeniable truth of Lex Talionis.
You simply cannot take and give nothing in return; you will do it once, ok, it may be a success, you do it twice, it may this time be a success too, but from this point on you start isolating yourself from your social playground.
I do not believe, that all human inside society are ‘predators’ but there always will be someone stronger, in many terms, than you. Thus, in order to be a ‘real predator’ you have to imitate other earthly animals. They only hunt in order to eat, and they always fight in order to defend themselves…
If you spend your days, fighting the one opponent after the other, without important reason, near or far, you are expendable…
My personal opinion is that if one gives me 5, I will give him 15, but if he took from me 5, I will take from him, or I will try to, 15…
Lex Talionis, is a balancing factor that exists in Earth, it keeps in equilibrium all animals, and of course humans. Can you imagine, millions of stupid people, doing one stupidity after the other and getting away with it? A REAL HELL ON EARTH.'
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The idea of Sin, does not belong in the thought of the Magus. Sin, from the concept of defying physical laws, is not possible, without immediate consequences, from the application of forces that work from the aforementioned laws, if disequilibrium is made...

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