Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#469270 - 02/05/12 04:04 AM Re: Satanism as a Philosophy vs. Satanism as a Religion (capital R) [Re: Samyaza]
Sir Schwarzweise Offline


Registered: 02/03/12
Posts: 100
Loc: Hic et Nunc
Although I am new and haven't deserved any confidence yet, I would like to add something to the discussion about terms, which should be used to describe Satanism.

Many wise words are said, but in the middle of choosing whether Satanism is a religion or a philosophy, I am missing the word ideology.

The dictionary says this:
- a system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy
- the set of beliefs characteristic of a social group or individual

Nevertheless, I think all of these terms can be used, because Satanism includes essential elements - and the benefits - of all. This makes the word versus in the name of this thread incorrect.
_________________________
"I'll give you black sensations up and down your spine
If you're into evil, you're a friend of mine..."




Top
#469272 - 02/05/12 05:41 AM Re: Satanism as a Philosophy vs. Satanism as a Religion (capital R) [Re: Sir Schwarzweise]
Janina Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1455
Loc: Center of my own Universe
Originally Posted By: Sir Schwarzweise
Although I am new and haven't deserved any confidence yet, I would like to add something to the discussion about terms, which should be used to describe Satanism.

Many wise words are said, but in the middle of choosing whether Satanism is a religion or a philosophy, I am missing the word ideology.

The dictionary says this:
- a system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy
- the set of beliefs characteristic of a social group or individual

Nevertheless, I think all of these terms can be used, because Satanism includes essential elements - and the benefits - of all. This makes the word versus in the name of this thread incorrect.



I myself don´t see Satanism so much as an ideology, in the meaning that ideology is believing in some system of thoughts or ideas.

In the way I see satanism, it is more pragmatic tool than just philosophical idea. Satanism has magnificent philosophy but it does not end in the level of "just thinking". Satanism as an lifestyle means first of all pragmatic action. You have an purpose and you use Satanism as tool for reaching that goal..


Edited by Janina (02/05/12 09:32 AM)
_________________________
Devil´s Advocate

Top
#469288 - 02/05/12 01:44 PM Re: Satanism as a Philosophy vs. Satanism as a Religion (capital R) [Re: Sir Schwarzweise]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 992
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: Sir Schwarzweise
The dictionary says this:
- a system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy
- the set of beliefs characteristic of a social group or individual

Based on the definitions that you just gave for "ideology", I'm not sure how well the word would apply to Satanism.

As was explained in Magus Gilmore's essay The Myth of the “Satanic Community” (strongly suggested for gaining a better understanding of how Satanism operates), there is a distinct lack of continuity among the preferences, standards and "beliefs" of individual Satanists in regards to many different elements of life, particularly in regards to things like politics and economics, aesthetics and art, personal goals and even standards for interaction with other people.

Satanism entails a lot of individualism, and I generally think of the word "ideology" as implying something a lot more cohesive and conformist than what I see within Satanism. Though it may be a semantic issue and could depend a lot on exactly how you want to define the word.
_________________________


Top
#469317 - 02/05/12 10:25 PM Re: Satanism as a Philosophy vs. Satanism as a Religion (capital R) [Re: Samyaza]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11546
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: Samyaza
I studied Judaism, Buddhism, Taoism, Shintoism, Christianity, Islam, and about 12 other 'isms' that I don't need to go into here. Long story short, none made sense to me. Well, I take that back, one did. Atheism.

"Atheism" isn't mutually exclusive with everything you listed, though. It's possible to be both an atheist and a Buddhist, or an atheist and a Taoist. More on that later.

Quote:
I have known about the Church of Satan since my days in college, but I never gave it much thought, as the ritualistic trappings seemed to me to be absolutely ridiculous. There's having disdain for organised religion, and then there's carrying it to an extreme, and I felt the CoS was carrying it to an extreme.

Actually, I find that atheists of the 'militant atheist' sort of variety are better examples of people who "have disdain for organized religion" and "carry it to an extreme", to the point where they erroneously assume that all religions behave like their parents' Christianity. For example, naively dismissing any and all forms of ritualized expression as "absolutely ridiculous".

Quote:
Then, I started reading these boards, seeing what people were actually like. These all were highly intelligent people, people who were, for the lack of a better word, atheists.

There already IS a better word for us: "Satanists". All the term "atheist" tells you is where one stands on the issue of deity existence. An atheist is somebody who does not believe in the existence of deities. That's ALL the word means. That's ALL it has ever meant. But obviously there's much more to Satanism than that, just as there's more to the Abrahamic religions than monotheism.

Quote:
This is my question. To you, is Satanism a Philosophy, or is it a Religion?

"Philosophy" and "religion" are not proper nouns, so there's no need for capital letters here. All religions have some sort of philosophical component, and Satanism is no exception. But Satanism is indeed a religion, as it contains the necessary and sufficient components of a religion: philosophy, dogma, ritualized expression, etc.

Quote:
There is a significant difference. The way that I see it is that it HAS to be a philosophy, that is a way of looking at the world, and humanity as a whole. And, if it is truly a philosphy [sic], then why the 'magic'?

Because there's obviously more to it than just being a philosophy.

Quote:
Magic can't exist in a truly rational world.

Says who? You? It wouldn't be very rational for me to take your word for it, especially since it's been over 20 years since you allegedly read The Satanic Bible! When you do get around to re-reading it as you said you plan on doing, pay particular attention to the chapter that begins with the sentence, "The definition of magic, as used in this book, is..."

Quote:
There may be some things we have yet to understand, but nothing that can not currently be explained by science

Well which is it?

Quote:
I guess I'm just wondering why the religious trappings.

A better question is: why do they bother you so much? Why have you let yourself dread "religion" so much that you dogmatically reject ritualistic trappings as possibly having any underlying, known rational use to the user?
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

(Wenn du Google's Übersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)

Top
#469335 - 02/06/12 05:58 AM Re: Satanism as a Philosophy vs. Satanism as a Religion (capital R) [Re: John Prophet]
Sir Schwarzweise Offline


Registered: 02/03/12
Posts: 100
Loc: Hic et Nunc
Originally Posted By: John Prophet
Based on the definitions that you just gave for "ideology", I'm not sure how well the word would apply to Satanism.

Though it may be a semantic issue and could depend a lot on exactly how you want to define the word.


I did not call Satanism an ideology, I meant (and said), that Satanism includes elements of a philosophy, a religion and an ideology. Indeed, words can be understood differently.

Maybe the dictionary wasn't the right source, I agree. Let me say it in my own words.

To my mind, Satanism is a concentrate of philosophical views - materialistic initial position -, religious concepts - atheism and auto-deism -, and can be called an ideology in the sense that Satanism is also a lifestyle. Philosophy is the worldview, religion is the view on deities and ideology is the practical side of the whole teaching of Satanism --> World - God - Individual, are the three required elements for an opinion. Satanism gives answer to all of them, which shows the strength of the Satanic understanding.

P.S. Maybe I just look at the question from a philosophical angle - something already turned into a habit. But I am fine with being corrected and learn from it.
_________________________
"I'll give you black sensations up and down your spine
If you're into evil, you're a friend of mine..."




Top
#469346 - 02/06/12 10:23 AM Re: Satanism as a Philosophy vs. Satanism as a Religion (capital R) [Re: Zaftig]
Aku76 Offline


Registered: 01/27/12
Posts: 4
Loc: Maine

"religion is a way of acting in the world"

I like it. And with Satanism, it's just your will.

Logic doesn't dictate the will. Will just is. No matter what. For good or ill.

Philosophy, reason and one's powers of perception are a means to an end, but will is the end in itself.

Religions ultimately don't fit themselves in as subordinate to reason. Adherents must be willing to suspend reason to accept the ( superior ) religion.

Being born isn't a reasonable act. One simply finds themselves existing - with a will all their own.

None of us are justified by anything greater than our will.


Edited by Aku76 (02/06/12 10:26 AM)

Top
#469347 - 02/06/12 10:41 AM On Defining Religion [Re: Zaftig]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
For those curious on a how a scholar of religion (yours truly) views the definition of religion (within academia):

The notion of studying religion itself first surfaces when early (male, white, Protestant) explorers encountered the foreign. They needed a word to describe activities which were clearly not Christianity. Christianity was then "religion" and everything else was superstition, magic, witchcraft, or sorcery, and variations thereof. Religion, then, carries with it a heavy notion of superiority.

That was then. Now it is used much more broadly, and sometimes rejected for more appropriate terms, depending on the group studied. For example, Native American scholars prefer the term "tradition" to "religion".

Contemporary scholars are wary of the notion of one pervasive theory that fits all endeavours to study religion. Dictionaries and encyclopedias provide a guideline, but there has never been one definition that could be appropriately applied to all religious activity. The theoretical always falls short of the practical when definitions are too rigid.

Instead, we have mutable parameters when studying religious phenomena, and the large spectrum of possibilities. Religion is not a fixed entity separate from language, culture, politics, or history. Categories are necessary guidelines. We examine the proposed categories to reject, accept, or recalibrate them. Theories and categories are necessary structures in order to better understand our subject. Structures that no longer serve our purpose are ultimately abandoned. Religions themselves are constantly engaged in similar filtering, adjustments, and reengineering of ideas, morals, rituals, and philosophy. Scholars then, also modify frameworks in turn.

“The moral…is not that religion cannot be defined, but that it can be defined, with greater or lesser success, more than fifty ways.”

---Jonathan Z. Smith, "Religion, Religions, Religious” (281).


Edited by Zaftig (02/06/12 10:52 AM)

Top
#469382 - 02/06/12 03:00 PM Re: On Defining Religion [Re: Samyaza]
Janina Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1455
Loc: Center of my own Universe
If Satanism would be just a philosophy why would it teach Magic in that case? If Satanism would be just an Ceremony why would it have an philosophy in it. If Satanism would be just one ideology why would it be so pragmatic as it is?

Maybe Satanism is something else than just this or that. To me it is an effective tool for succesive life. Religion with Ritual and Dogma, philosophy with pragmatism and personal ideology!


Edited by Janina (02/06/12 03:09 PM)
_________________________
Devil´s Advocate

Top
#469395 - 02/06/12 07:09 PM Re: Satanism as a Philosophy vs. Satanism as a Religion (capital R) [Re: Sir Schwarzweise]
John Prophet Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 992
Loc: My suburban lair
Originally Posted By: Sir Schwarzweise
and can be called an ideology in the sense that Satanism is also a lifestyle.

This is the problem with the term, and what I was getting at before. I don't think that there is anything that can be specifically called a "Satanic lifestyle", because lifestyle choices can vary dramatically between individual Satanists.

Originally Posted By: Sir Schwarzweise
and ideology is the practical side of the whole teaching of Satanism

The basics of Satanic philosophy are shared by Satanists, but the way in which that philosophy is applied to those individual's lives can be very different. The practical side of Satanism is largely up to the individual to use as they see fit. Once again, any lifestyle or ideological element would be a highly personalized thing, and therefore can't be put into the same category as something like "Satanic philosophy", because it's not agreed upon by all Satanists.

Satanism doesn't dictate how individuals apply the philosophy to their own lives. In my opinion, this is one of the strengths of Satanism. Whether you're defining ideology as having to do with lifestyle or practical application of the philosophy or even political and economic ideas, there really can't be a definitive "Satanic ideology", because all of these things are up to each individual Satanist and are different for each individual Satanist.

Originally Posted By: Sir Schwarzweise
Satanism gives answer to all of them, which shows the strength of the Satanic understanding.

Another, perhaps easier way to summarize what I've been saying is that Satanism doesn't give you answers about ideology; it expects you to come up with your own.
_________________________


Top
#469449 - 02/07/12 07:19 AM Re: Satanism as a Philosophy vs. Satanism as a Religion (capital R) [Re: John Prophet]
Sir Schwarzweise Offline


Registered: 02/03/12
Posts: 100
Loc: Hic et Nunc
Satanism, indeed, does not dictate anything. It gives the Satanist different forms of freedom.

After some thinking I can say any terms can be both right and incorrect to describe Satanism. I think the true description of Satanism has to be an analyse of its elements, while the synthesis fails because of the controversy within Satanism.

By the way, I just can't resist to mention, that - again from the philosophical angle - an inner controversy is the reason and the source of the motus perpetuus , the development and 'life' of the object 'gifted' with a controversy. With other words, Satanism is alive and immortal.
_________________________
"I'll give you black sensations up and down your spine
If you're into evil, you're a friend of mine..."




Top
#469469 - 02/07/12 03:19 PM Re: Satanism as a Philosophy vs. Satanism as a Religion (capital R) [Re: Sir Schwarzweise]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 756
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
May I ask what controversy are you referring to?

What terms can be both correct and incorrect?

Quote:
Satanism is a concentrate of philosophical views - materialistic initial position -, religious concepts - atheism and auto-deism -, ...


I wouldn't call Satanism an "auto-deism" because the universe isn't the product of the Satanist. His own reality is the product of his choices, but the creation of the universe isn't.

Reference:

Originally Posted By: Dictionary.com
de·ism
&#8194; &#8194;[dee-iz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
1.
belief in the existence of a God on the evidence of reason and nature only, with rejection of supernatural revelation ( distinguished from theism).
2.
belief in a God who created the world but has since remained indifferent to it.


Source

I would pin it to Autotheism.

Originally Posted By: Dictionary.com
Autotheist
Au"to*the`ist\, n. One given to self-worship. [R.]
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
Cite This Source


Source

The reason why I ask is because there are terms that are required to even consider oneself a Satanist while others can be open to opinion. This is why those who fit the description of a Satanist are Satanists by fact and those who don't fit the description are not.

Such as the disbelief in the supernatural.

One term I opinionate here is the application of doubt until proven wrong. I prefer that term because if I'm proven wrong, I acknowledge what is fact instead of a hypothesis of what can be false.

Fantasy after all is for the decompression chamber. wink


Edited by LordofDarkness (02/07/12 03:52 PM)
_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

Top
#469511 - 02/08/12 02:57 AM Re: Satanism as a Philosophy vs. Satanism as a Religion (capital R) [Re: LordofDarkness]
Sir Schwarzweise Offline


Registered: 02/03/12
Posts: 100
Loc: Hic et Nunc
Originally Posted By: LordofDarkness
May I ask what controversy are you referring to?


Satanism is (although not only) a religion, but one without a deity; Satanism is a philosophy, but goes beyond the limits of only thinking; Satanism includes Magic Rituals, but preaches not the belief in Magic as shown in Hollywood horror films and Satanism isn't about Satan - the last one seems to confuse the majority, when they hear it for the first time. Satanism is full of facts, most people get disarrayed by, because when they actually 'come in touch' with real Satanism it appears to distinguish from what they expected it to be. I mean, you probably heard this many times:"So, you Satanists worship the Devil, huh?" And then you start explaining you haven't sold your soul to a horned'n'cloven-hoofed monstrosity, what overloads the simple mind of the one asking.

Originally Posted By: LordOfDarkness
What terms can be both correct and incorrect?


The terms religion, philosophy, ideology or lifestyle etc. If you say Satanism is only one of the named, that would be incorrect. Satanism requires words that analyse it, for it is more than just religion - but also is one - and more than exclusively a philosophy, while it is one.


Originally Posted By: LordOfDarkness
I wouldn't call Satanism an "auto-deism" because the universe isn't the product of the Satanist. His own reality is the product of his choices, but the creation of the universe isn't.


Oh, I never meant the opposite! I must excuse myself, this mistake is a product of my, apparently, bad English.


Originally Posted By: LordOfDarkness
I would pin it to Autotheism.


This is just what I meant. Thousand pardons. I have seen the term auto-deist appear somewhere at this forum and even thought why deism was chosen instead of theism, but assumed it was probably my lack of knowledge regarding these terms.

Thank you very much for correcting me before I had the chance to make more mistakes. Once again, thousand pardons for the misapprehension.

"Doubt until proven wrong" is definitely an essential moment. It is part of the philosophies I truly support. (I mean ancient philosophers)
_________________________
"I'll give you black sensations up and down your spine
If you're into evil, you're a friend of mine..."




Top
#469524 - 02/08/12 10:12 AM Re: Satanism as a Philosophy vs. Satanism as a Religion (capital R) [Re: Sir Schwarzweise]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 756
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
Originally Posted By: Sir Schwarzweise
I mean, you probably heard this many times:"So, you Satanists worship the Devil, huh?" And then you start explaining you haven't sold your soul to a horned'n'cloven-hoofed monstrosity, what overloads the simple mind of the one asking.


Oh, I have! smile

Speaking of which, a friend of my girlfriend said something similar to that phrase recently and I just chuckled at the irony.

But that friend asked my girlfriend if she could borrow The Satanic Bible.

You won't believe how happy I am to date a Satanist.

You're most welcome for the correction! smile

_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

Top
#469526 - 02/08/12 10:23 AM Re: Satanism as a Philosophy vs. Satanism as a Religion (capital R) [Re: LordofDarkness]
Janina Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1455
Loc: Center of my own Universe
Originally Posted By: LordofDarkness
Originally Posted By: Sir Schwarzweise
I mean, you probably heard this many times:"So, you Satanists worship the Devil, huh?" And then you start explaining you haven't sold your soul to a horned'n'cloven-hoofed monstrosity, what overloads the simple mind of the one asking.


Oh, I have! smile



Well I have heard this many times and my answer is always the same. I do not worship anything smile

I don´t feel any need to explain anything for any people cause I don´t feel I owe them any explanation..


Edited by Janina (02/08/12 10:25 AM)
_________________________
Devil´s Advocate

Top
#469527 - 02/08/12 10:41 AM Re: Satanism as a Philosophy vs. Satanism as a Religion (capital R) [Re: Janina]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 756
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
Originally Posted By: Janina
Originally Posted By: LordofDarkness
Originally Posted By: Sir Schwarzweise
I mean, you probably heard this many times:"So, you Satanists worship the Devil, huh?" And then you start explaining you haven't sold your soul to a horned'n'cloven-hoofed monstrosity, what overloads the simple mind of the one asking.


Oh, I have! smile



Well I have heard this many times and my answer is always the same. I do not worship anything smile

I don´t feel any need to explain anything for any people cause I don´t feel I owe them any explanation..


Reasonable enough.

It gives them a chance to look for the explanation themselves if they want it bad enough.
_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

Top
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >


Forum Stats
12090 Members
73 Forums
43862 Topics
405449 Posts

Max Online: 197 @ 10/04/11 06:49 AM
Advertisements