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#469403 - 02/06/12 08:39 PM Apologies (un)accepted
AdamBomb Offline


Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 75
Every time I apologize to someone about something, I honestly regret it to some degree. It is a weak feeling. But I can't help it sometimes, it's almost like a natural reaction sometimes. I don't want to get into a physical fight with anyone so I apologize if let's say I accidentally bump into someone. Satanism does not seem to believe in apologizing because if you really want to be sorry for something, you show it threw your actions.
I do believe actions speak louder than words. It is very annoying when someone says they apologize but don't really show it through their actions. In some cases, though, the fact that someone says they are sorry shows some mental recognition to me that they at least knew what they did was wrong.
I'm curious what people here have in dealing with apologizing to others? Feel weak? stupid? clever?

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#469405 - 02/06/12 08:42 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Originally Posted By: AdamBomb
I don't want to get into a physical fight with anyone so I apologize if let's say I accidentally bump into someone.


That's pretty much common courtesy.
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#469407 - 02/06/12 09:19 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3409
Quote:
Satanism does not seem to believe in apologizing because if you really want to be sorry for something, you show it threw your actions.


The heavy emphasis on responsibility means that when you fuck up, you own up to it, take responsibility, and try not to do it again. If someone objects to simply saying the words then they are blind to just how far an apology can appease tense situations.

None claim perfection, but if someone is too proud to apologize, ever, it is counter-productive pride.

If a mere apology makes someone feel weak, then indeed they are weak, not because they apologized, but because they resent it like a child stomping their foot and muttering 'sorry' into their neck.

Nothing a good spanking wouldn't cure. wink

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#469408 - 02/06/12 09:19 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
tekku Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1261
Loc: Behind You
Are you really sure that there are no aspects of Satanism that would not cover something simple as apologising?

I can think of a few of the Satanic Sins and Statements that relate to apologies when a situation requires it.

It would be stupid and counter productive to not offer that simple courtesy when and where it is deserved and going from there; for you to learn why you were in the wrong and to not repeat it again.

No one is perfect nor are they right 100% of the time. If one was to disregard apologising entirely then they are a self righteous fool and truly weak to be unable to do so.
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That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die
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#469409 - 02/06/12 09:20 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: Zaftig]
tekku Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1261
Loc: Behind You
Witch Zaftig, you beat me to it.
I agree, spot on!
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That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die
~H.P. Lovecraft~

La bonne cuisine est la base du véritable bonheur ~Escoffier~

Church of Satan

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#469411 - 02/06/12 09:22 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
JDBones Offline


Registered: 01/27/12
Posts: 102
I think one should apologize when they think and really believe they were wrong. You shouldn't do it in cases when someone tries to MAKE you feel guilty about something you did just because they imply so. Measure the situation and then decide if this person deserves this. I'm talking about situations when people try to make you feel that way as a weapon against you - a weapon that would serve them well.

And, actually, by apologizing when you believe you've done wrong or you feel you need to give that, it doesn't mean you're weak. Actually, it's very hard to say sorry sometimes even if you want to, so the effort to do it would mean a lot to your close and cherished ones. So, no - it doesn't make you a coward.

Trying to avoid physical conflicts is, in my opinion, also wiser than trying to provoke such. Beating the hell out of someone should be done only for protection or if there is no other way and you've got your back against the wall.

Some people would say sorry just because you didn't expect them to and this gives them some psychological advantage and it also tickles your guilt. In such cases it by no means reflects the real way they feel about the situation.

When someone tries to imply I've said or done something wrong (but I still think I haven't), then I'd just explain why I think they're wrong in their conclusion and that this conclusion is only in their head and doesn't relate to the situation as it is out of context. I'd usually suggest that if they still think that what I said doesn't reflect the situation accordignly, then I'd be more than glad to apologize. Usually no answer follows because I've made a strong point, they see that their little effort to try and make me feel guilty didn't work, they give it a second thought and the fact that I've said I'm ready to apologize (but under the above-mentioned condition) makes them feel uncomfortable.

Hope this didn't make it even more confusing smile
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#469413 - 02/06/12 09:48 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: tekku]
AdamBomb Offline


Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 75
Well, yes, the main thing of self-preservation justifies the whole apologizing. I have apologized before where normally I wouldn't but it was to avoid tension in the workplace and for fear of losing my job as well. I work as a team and not an individual which makes total sense from any perspective whether it's Satanic or not.
What I was curious about though if people had scenarios where they regret apologizing. I did to some degree, but then again I was protecting myself so why regret it? It's probably a subconscious insecurity I have sometimes feeling like I would be a wimp or coward, but it's definitely not as bad as it used to be.

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#469417 - 02/06/12 10:01 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
JDBones Offline


Registered: 01/27/12
Posts: 102
Well, when it's been done, it's done. Nothing you can do about it. Just stay away from people who don't deserve your apology or if you have to be around them, treat them with courtesy or whatever you need to do in order to survive.

But, this convices me even more now that I should at last start founding the basics of guilt-removal surgery - I'm sure I'll make millions out of it! grin
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Man, I can look at photos of Me for hours! Honestly, I love it!


"'cause down here in Hell everybody loves Me!"
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#469418 - 02/06/12 10:16 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
tekku Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1261
Loc: Behind You
I would like to suggest that you read "The 48 laws of power" by Robert Greene. It will provide you with some perspective in regards to the issues you are asking about.
_________________________
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die
~H.P. Lovecraft~

La bonne cuisine est la base du véritable bonheur ~Escoffier~

Church of Satan

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#469427 - 02/06/12 11:47 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
My ego is strong enough to allow me to apologize to people even for things they did wrong, if it means we get to avoid an unnecessary bitch fight.

After all, it really doesn't matter who cut in line, or who bumped whom, or even, who started the argument. If the choice is between being "right," and being happy, I'll generally pick "happy."

On the other hand, I will sometimes err too far in the direction of offering an apology I know to be false, in order to smooth over a conflict, or soothe hurt feelings, and my pride will ache as a result. If I've just played the fool to placate a moron or stroke the ego of a bully, I'll definitely come away feeling some resentment and anger.

Actually, I'm a bit proud of myself, because recently, some people put pressure on me to apologize for stating my opinion on an issue. I apologized and expressed regret for some of the things I'd said earlier on that had been phrased lazily or poorly, and that had caused the conversation to go off on a tangent. I was told this wasn't good enough, and basically asked to try again.

This, naturally, pissed me off, and pretty much killed any desire I had left to try to be the bigger person.

Since the full-on grovel-pology people were waiting for would've basically required me to "admit" to holding a genuinely odious, wrong, and abhorrent straw-man version of my actual opinion, I basically just reiterated my previous argument, reiterated my regrets, and systematically ticked off the exact places and ways I felt I'd been misinterpreted, and left it at that.

It was unusually bitchy behavior for me, but it felt good smile.

I've gotten much better at striking just the right balance than I used to be, and the journey continues.

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#469444 - 02/07/12 06:31 AM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
There's this fascinating thing about apologies --- once you notice it, you'll see it everywhere.

Many people have the attitude that, if they apologize for something they did wrong, you MUST forgive them. If you don't, they get very angry! And they will resort to guilt tactics: they feel SO BAD, and you are making them suffer further by denying them their absolution. I call it "forgiveness blackmail".

I think it's a useful way to tell the difference between cheap excuses and genuine contrition. If someone is just looking to be let off the hook, they will get very defensive about their own apology. If someone is genuinely contrite, they'll recognize that you don't OWE them forgiveness, they owe you justice.


Edited by reprobate (02/07/12 06:36 AM)
Edit Reason: Correcting a mistype
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#469454 - 02/07/12 10:44 AM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: reprobate]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3409
Yeah, the guilt thing. It appears to be a favourite manipulative tool in relationships. So much resentment can build that it poisons the whole thing.

I have tried to avoid it; if someone does something wrong, then I do expect them to apologize as acknowledgment of the issue, but do not want them to feel guilty. It actually makes me feel bad that they feel bad. All I want is to fix it, be done with it, and move on.

It rarely happens so neatly in reality.

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#469457 - 02/07/12 11:41 AM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: reprobate]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: reprobate
Many people have the attitude that, if they apologize for something they did wrong, you MUST forgive them. If you don't, they get very angry! And they will resort to guilt tactics: they feel SO BAD, and you are making them suffer further by denying them their absolution. I call it "forgiveness blackmail".


Yup! It's very "kindergarten," in a way, because it reveals an implicit belief that "I'm sorry" is a magic incantation that can be said any-old-way, and it automatically fixes everything.

So, that's how you get, for example, the "I'm sorry you're an idiot"-style apologies.

People need to realize that a good apology is a good start, but it doesn't undo everything that was said and done. You're absolutely right that a sincerely contrite person ideally understands that they are the ones who owe the hurt party justice.

Something that's even difficult for me, at times, is recognizing that a person's feelings are a person's feelings, and attempting to "reason" with someone about their emotions, wants, or needs usually only makes matters worse. (In the heat of the moment, though, it can be pretty hard to keep this in mind.)

Meanwhile, on the other side of the equation, there's also an art to requesting and receiving apologies.

I work with a little kid right now who has learned the power of the apology--because she's been compelled to make several, for hurting, hitting, deceiving, and stealing from peers and adults--and has gotten into the habit of asking for full-on letters from people for, basically, doing anything that annoys, frustrates, or thwarts her.

She has, in other words, Missed the Point. Big time.

(Of course, she also believes that once an apology's been made, the slate's been wiped clean, and you can go back to Shitty Behavior As Usual. Again, kindergarten behavior.)

Since apologies are usually difficult and uncomfortable for the people making them, I think it's also helpful for the apology-receiver to try to be empathic and gracious--though, granted, this can be extremely challenging, when tensions are running high--particularly if the apology-giver appears to be at all sincere. Often, if a well-intentioned apology-giver feels respected and protected, they'll be much more willing to open up, and try to make amends, than if they feel attacked.

In the situation I talked about, my initial apology probably did veer too close to the "I'm sorry you're a crybaby" line. I'm proud that I stuck up for myself, but I still could've done much better, both going into and coming out of that whole encounter.

In my defense, though, the way people were consistently demanding apologies from me and from each other in that whole conversation reminded me too much of my aforementioned kiddo, and how she uses the expression of hurt feelings/offense and the demand for apologies primarily as a way of exacting vengeance and expressing dominance. I don't know if I was hyper-sensitive or on-the-nose here, but it still all-but-nixed my desire to shoulder the responsibility for wrongdoing.

Apologies are Serious Business! laugh
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"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#469462 - 02/07/12 01:21 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: TrojZyr]
Janina Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1501
Loc: Center of my own Universe
Originally Posted By: TrojZyr

Yup! It's very "kindergarten," in a way, because it reveals an implicit belief that "I'm sorry" is a magic incantation that can be said any-old-way, and it automatically fixes everything.



I think that kind of culture comes from Christian believe that you can just ask forgiveness and automatically get it. this kind of believe is, I think, very dangerous habit ones you learn to act like this. it teaches people not to take full responsible for their actions, but move their own responsibility to that other person whom they have been hurting.

Most people nowadays seem to believe that ones you say these magic words "I´m sorry" everything is fixed right away and then you just can continue being piss head like before. Of course if you have done something wrong you have to have guts to apologize, but if you don´t really mean that when you say the word then that´s just one form of hypocrisy.
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#469463 - 02/07/12 01:23 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: TrojZyr]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Quote:
So, that's how you get, for example, the "I'm sorry you're an idiot"-style apologies.

And let's not even get started on "I'm sorry you were offended" non-apologies.

Quote:
I think it's also helpful for the apology-receiver to try to be empathic and gracious

Helpful for what? To what end, I mean? I don't really see much value in making apologies any easier. They should be hard.

ETA: On second thought, I guess you are saying, if someone apologizes to you, don't rub their faces in it. I agree with that. On the other hand, I don't accept apologies where the person doesn't acknowledge some kind of personal responsibility, so I don't believe in being gracious to THOSE kinds of apologies.

On the whole, I think it should not be the job of the aggrieved party to make the apologizer feel better. It should be the apologizer's job to take responsibility.


Edited by reprobate (02/07/12 01:51 PM)
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