Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#469464 - 02/07/12 01:24 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: Janina]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Quote:
I think that kind of culture comes from Christian believe that you can just ask forgiveness and automatically get it.

This might be more true of some denominations than others. Calvinists (incl. Anglicans/Episcos, Presbos, Dutch Reform etc.) don't think this, for example.


Edited by reprobate (02/07/12 01:25 PM)
_________________________
reprobate

Top
#469465 - 02/07/12 02:12 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
Unknown Offline


Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1644
Loc: 611 Calif. St.
I have not read all of the responses here so I well ehm apologize if I am repeating anyone here.

I think apologies can be a useful tool in many circumstances. They can be used to quickly defuse a heated situation or to persuade people that they are right allowing their pretentiousness to bring them to their knees later.

I also think apologizing is best done if you really mean it and not use it as word salad. What's the point in apologizing almost as if you are repenting and not actually changing what you did in the first place?
_________________________
www.churchofsatan.com

Satanism Demands study and not worship!
http://compleatwitch.blogspot.com/

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-classical/

Avatar used with special permission from Reverend CoffinRust. www.coffinrust.com









Top
#469468 - 02/07/12 03:18 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
anna Offline


Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 210
Loc: Poland
Quote:
Well, yes, the main thing of self-preservation justifies the whole apologizing. I have apologized before where normally I wouldn't but it was to avoid tension in the workplace and for fear of losing my job as well. I work as a team and not an individual which makes total sense from any perspective whether it's Satanic or not.
What I was curious about though if people had scenarios where they regret apologizing. I did to some degree, but then again I was protecting myself so why regret it? It's probably a subconscious insecurity I have sometimes feeling like I would be a wimp or coward, but it's definitely not as bad as it used to be.


Not going into details, I once had a quite unpleasant conversation with my boss who acted unfairly to me. A few weeks earlier she treated my coworker in the same manner. He then told us all how she had treated him. I told her some bitter words and that she treats her employees like dumb illiterate slaves. As she was a bit confused what I was talking about I gave her example of my coworker, without mentioning his name. The next day I felt bad about it, not because I felt guilty, I was not even afraid of losing my job (it was a nuisance) but I did not want such a tense and nervous atmosphere in the place where I worked. So I went to her and apologized for letting my emotions run away with me. She smiled and said that it really did not matter. After a few hours she called my coworker to her room and vented all her fury on him. I do not have to explain how I felt then.

It is understandable that you apologize to avoid tension in your workplace, you spend most of your time there and you would like to avoid uneasy situations. And even if you are going to leave, the reputation of a troublemaker will not serve you in the future.

Apart from this siuation, which was some time ago, I rarely apologize. There is no need for this. However, if you feel that you are in the wrong apologizing is an honourable thing to do. However, it is still better to think twice before doing something stupid than to do it and apologize afterwards.
_________________________
Just gonna stand there and watch me burn. Well that's alright because I like the way it hurts.

Top
#469500 - 02/07/12 10:36 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: reprobate]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
I'm definitely guilty of pulling "I'm sorry you were offended," but you're absolutely right that it's not a "real" apology. Again, it places the ball back in the other person's court.

The sticky wicket I sometimes run into is when there's just been a gross misunderstanding. So, I'm stuck between having to take responsibility for something that wasn't meant--or sometimes, wasn't even said--or, having to explain or deflect in a way that will culminate in one of those lame-ass non-apologies, or something a lot like it. How do you deal with that kind of situation?

Originally Posted By: reprobate

Helpful for what? To what end, I mean? I don't really see much value in making apologies any easier. They should be hard.


I'm pragmatic. I know that the only person I really have control over is myself, so I do what I need to do on my end to try to get the outcome I want.

If I actually want someone to try to make amends, I have a vested interest in not making that process too difficult for them.

I also realize that we all make mistakes, so there certainly are many times where making someone's apology difficult would be douchey and sadistic, in addition to being just plain counterproductive. (Of course, this depends on the crime in question.)

Quote:
On the other hand, I don't accept apologies where the person doesn't acknowledge some kind of personal responsibility, so I don't believe in being gracious to THOSE kinds of apologies.


In theory and in principle, I agree.

In practice, it depends--again, sometimes you have to be pragmatic, bite the bullet, and let a sub-par apology slide.

Quote:
It should be the apologizer's job to take responsibility.


Right. Ideally, it should be.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

Top
#469501 - 02/07/12 11:03 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: TrojZyr]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Quote:
The sticky wicket I sometimes run into is when there's just been a gross misunderstanding. So, I'm stuck between having to take responsibility for something that wasn't meant--or sometimes, wasn't even said--or, having to explain or deflect in a way that will culminate in one of those lame-ass non-apologies, or something a lot like it. How do you deal with that kind of situation?

My opinion on this is shaped by my view that the meaning of my words doesn't depend on the thoughts in my head when you say them. So, if I misspoke, if I have ignored or neglected some ambiguity I should reasonably have expected, or if I was otherwise insufficiently careful about how I spoke, I will readily apologize.

The flip side of this, of course, is that the meaning of my words doesn't depend on the thoughts in my listener's head when I say them, either. So, if they have not made a good faith effort to understand me, if they try to impute to me positions that go beyond what I said (not "what I meant" in the sense of the thoughts that were in my head, but the actual objective meaning of my statements), then I won't apologize for that.

Since it's all too easy to let oneself off the hook, I try to compensate by erring on the side of taking more responsibility, rather than less. I am a big believer in charitable interpretation. That said, I do think some people are flat out irresponsible in their approach to communication.

It's a two way street and it requires good faith and good judgment. Generally, if I think I've lost my good standing as a truth-telling person, I'll apologize. If I think they've forfeited their good standing with me as a person entitled to judge me or my views, then I won't apologize.

Quote:
I'm pragmatic. I know that the only person I really have control over is myself, so I do what I need to do on my end to try to get the outcome I want.

This is alien to me. I don't see anything "pragmatic" in this. Whatever outcome is to be had in this way would probably strike me as ceding something more valuable than what is gained.


Edited by reprobate (02/07/12 11:04 PM)
_________________________
reprobate

Top
#469503 - 02/07/12 11:56 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: reprobate]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: reprobate

My opinion on this is shaped by my view that the meaning of my words doesn't depend on the thoughts in my head when you say them. So, if I misspoke, if I have ignored or neglected some ambiguity I should reasonably have expected, or if I was otherwise insufficiently careful about how I spoke, I will readily apologize.


Makes sense to me! You basically apologize for being ignorant, insensitive, clumsy, or neglectful, when you should've known better, then?

Quote:
So, if they have not made a good faith effort to understand me, if they try to impute to me positions that go beyond what I said (not "what I meant" in the sense of the thoughts that were in my head, but the actual objective meaning of my statements), then I won't apologize for that.


Also makes sense.

But, here's a question--how do you differentiate between what words mean in your head, versus what they objectively mean in reality? Meaning, when can you rest easy in the knowledge that you've truly been as clear as you could be?

Quote:
It's a two way street and it requires good faith and good judgment.


Wholeheartedly agreed.

For instance, I'm a big believer in asking for clarification. When in doubt, ask someone what they mean, before assuming they mean the worst. When in doubt, assume ignorance, clumsiness, negligence, or even, stupidity, before assuming outright malice.

Quote:

This is alien to me. I don't see anything "pragmatic" in this. Whatever outcome is to be had in this way would probably strike me as ceding something more valuable than what is gained.


How do you mean?

It is pretty fatalistic, because it's basically me deciding that I have to do everything myself. frown
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

Top
#469512 - 02/08/12 03:07 AM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
Sir Schwarzweise Offline


Registered: 02/03/12
Posts: 100
Loc: Hic et Nunc
I think it is good if you feel unpleasant when apologizing. You won't enjoy this feeling and next time you'll think better and act wiser to prevent yourself from getting this feeling again. Apologizing means you brought yourself to a point when you have to admit you have done wrong, so, let that nasty feeling be a punishment for the mind, which will try to avoid it the next time you make choices. I say - apologize, feel bad and learn from it.
_________________________
"I'll give you black sensations up and down your spine
If you're into evil, you're a friend of mine..."




Top
#469518 - 02/08/12 07:45 AM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: TrojZyr]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Quote:
But, here's a question--how do you differentiate between what words mean in your head, versus what they objectively mean in reality? Meaning, when can you rest easy in the knowledge that you've truly been as clear as you could be?

One way is, when there's a discrepancy between what you thought you said and what someone understood, to write it down, take a good hard look at the words and phrasing, dictionary in hand, and ask yourself if someone could hear the same words and legitimately understand a different meaning in them. If you don't see it, you can ask someone whose judgment you trust.

The meaning of words is a matter of convention, so you don't have to be a mind-reader or diviner, you just have to remember that your listener isn't a mind-reader either, and can only understand you to the degree you respect linguistic conventions.

Quote:
How do you mean?

It is pretty fatalistic, because it's basically me deciding that I have to do everything myself. frown

I don't want to bum you out even further about it, but I'll be frank: my worry here is that what you're suggesting is a kind of dissembling. I would feel like my integrity was at stake --- and my integrity is something I think is worth some inconvenience, and worth making enemies for the sake of.
_________________________
reprobate

Top
#469529 - 02/08/12 10:57 AM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Thanks! Both of those make perfect sense, again.

In the case I talked about, I realized that I could've made people "happy" with me, but at the price of rewriting the discussion history, and basically colluding with a serious lie about myself and my values.

Since this was bigger than who cut whom in line at the store, I decided it wasn't worth it. I was willing to take responsibility for what I saw as my part, but not more than that.


Well, and on the "objective language" issue, in this conversation, some of the participants in the discussion stated that the only thing that really mattered was how you interpret someone's statement, not how they meant or intended it. In fact, several people stated outright that intentions "don't matter" to them, period, which I found surprising. That sounds pretty dangerous to me. What do you think?
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

Top
#469530 - 02/08/12 10:59 AM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: TrojZyr]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
As I said, my view is that words have objective meanings (or ranges of meaning) that are determined by social conventions for their usage. Sometimes conventions leave legitimate room for differing interpretation. But not all interpretations are legitimate. The thoughts that go through the listener's head are no more material than the thoughts that go through the speaker's head. Speakers are not mind readers any more than listeners are.


Edited by reprobate (02/08/12 11:01 AM)
_________________________
reprobate

Top
#469531 - 02/08/12 11:07 AM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Perfect! Thanks.

I've been mulling over this strange argument over in different ways lately--whether I was consistently fair or unfair, what to do or say in the future, etc., etc.--so I'm glad to get your perspective, since I trust your judgment and your sense of fairness. So, now I have more cud for thought on the matter. smile


_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

Top
#469549 - 02/08/12 05:20 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: TrojZyr]
Bedlam Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 1656
Loc: Perfidious Albion
Originally Posted By: TrojZyr
Thanks! Both of those make perfect sense, again.

In the case I talked about, I realized that I could've made people "happy" with me, but at the price of rewriting the discussion history, and basically colluding with a serious lie about myself and my values.

Since this was bigger than who cut whom in line at the store, I decided it wasn't worth it. I was willing to take responsibility for what I saw as my part, but not more than that.


Well, and on the "objective language" issue, in this conversation, some of the participants in the discussion stated that the only thing that really mattered was how you interpret someone's statement, not how they meant or intended it. In fact, several people stated outright that intentions "don't matter" to them, period, which I found surprising. That sounds pretty dangerous to me. What do you think?


I think you have been at the Vodka Red Bull, or whatever it is you youngsters drink these days. grin

Either that or my threaded/flat mode thing is all out of clink.


?


_________________________
Wine for my men, we ride at dawn...

Do I look like I carry a pencil? Jason Statham

It may be Crazy
But I'm the closest thing I have
To a voice of reason


~ Gil Scott Heron




Top
#469554 - 02/08/12 05:39 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
Bedlam Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 1656
Loc: Perfidious Albion

If you feel you were in the wrong...apologise.

That's not weak...it's just common sense and manners.

If you apologise because the alternative is getting your head kicked in by some goons...that's not weak either. That's self preservation.

Others in this thread seem to have wandered off into unnecessary philosophical jumbo. Although, I think they're having fun with it. grin


The only complications that arise with apologies, is when you are a bloke, trying to figure out just what it is you should be apologising for to your enigmatic other-half. smile

wink
_________________________
Wine for my men, we ride at dawn...

Do I look like I carry a pencil? Jason Statham

It may be Crazy
But I'm the closest thing I have
To a voice of reason


~ Gil Scott Heron




Top
#469568 - 02/08/12 08:18 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Never apologize! Tell them all to get lost and stand your ground!

Wait . . .

That is bad advice.

Sorry for feeding you a bunch of bull. eek
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

Top
#469755 - 02/12/12 03:30 AM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
StabAvery Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 714
Loc: michigan
I have good manners and say things like "sir, mam, and Thank you". If some fool walks into me while I'm shopping with my kid, The first thing that comes out of my mouth is "I'm sorry!, are you OK?". I hold doors for people arriving just behind me (this includes grotesquely fat men as well as beautiful women). I always buy when I am out to eat with others and I always tip exceedingly well.

My physical appearance throws most people off, so it normally comes as doubly a surprise. And I am near famous around here for using the catch phrase, "The Devil is always a perfect gentlemen".

Why on earth would you feel regret for showing common courtesy when you are obviously better than that? If you need to question things like that, perhaps you need to re-evaluate your self confidence. If you run into situations like that quite often, perhaps you need to re-evaluate your presentation.
_________________________
StabAvery.com
and coming soon... The Devil's Lab

Top
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >


Forum Stats
11895 Members
73 Forums
43648 Topics
404207 Posts

Max Online: 197 @ 10/04/11 06:49 AM
Advertisements