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#469403 - 02/06/12 08:39 PM Apologies (un)accepted
AdamBomb Offline


Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 75
Every time I apologize to someone about something, I honestly regret it to some degree. It is a weak feeling. But I can't help it sometimes, it's almost like a natural reaction sometimes. I don't want to get into a physical fight with anyone so I apologize if let's say I accidentally bump into someone. Satanism does not seem to believe in apologizing because if you really want to be sorry for something, you show it threw your actions.
I do believe actions speak louder than words. It is very annoying when someone says they apologize but don't really show it through their actions. In some cases, though, the fact that someone says they are sorry shows some mental recognition to me that they at least knew what they did was wrong.
I'm curious what people here have in dealing with apologizing to others? Feel weak? stupid? clever?

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#469405 - 02/06/12 08:42 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Originally Posted By: AdamBomb
I don't want to get into a physical fight with anyone so I apologize if let's say I accidentally bump into someone.


That's pretty much common courtesy.
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#469407 - 02/06/12 09:19 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
Quote:
Satanism does not seem to believe in apologizing because if you really want to be sorry for something, you show it threw your actions.


The heavy emphasis on responsibility means that when you fuck up, you own up to it, take responsibility, and try not to do it again. If someone objects to simply saying the words then they are blind to just how far an apology can appease tense situations.

None claim perfection, but if someone is too proud to apologize, ever, it is counter-productive pride.

If a mere apology makes someone feel weak, then indeed they are weak, not because they apologized, but because they resent it like a child stomping their foot and muttering 'sorry' into their neck.

Nothing a good spanking wouldn't cure. wink

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#469408 - 02/06/12 09:19 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
tekku Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1261
Loc: Behind You
Are you really sure that there are no aspects of Satanism that would not cover something simple as apologising?

I can think of a few of the Satanic Sins and Statements that relate to apologies when a situation requires it.

It would be stupid and counter productive to not offer that simple courtesy when and where it is deserved and going from there; for you to learn why you were in the wrong and to not repeat it again.

No one is perfect nor are they right 100% of the time. If one was to disregard apologising entirely then they are a self righteous fool and truly weak to be unable to do so.
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That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die
~H.P. Lovecraft~

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#469409 - 02/06/12 09:20 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: Zaftig]
tekku Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1261
Loc: Behind You
Witch Zaftig, you beat me to it.
I agree, spot on!
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That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die
~H.P. Lovecraft~

La bonne cuisine est la base du véritable bonheur ~Escoffier~

Church of Satan

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#469411 - 02/06/12 09:22 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
JDBones Offline


Registered: 01/27/12
Posts: 102
I think one should apologize when they think and really believe they were wrong. You shouldn't do it in cases when someone tries to MAKE you feel guilty about something you did just because they imply so. Measure the situation and then decide if this person deserves this. I'm talking about situations when people try to make you feel that way as a weapon against you - a weapon that would serve them well.

And, actually, by apologizing when you believe you've done wrong or you feel you need to give that, it doesn't mean you're weak. Actually, it's very hard to say sorry sometimes even if you want to, so the effort to do it would mean a lot to your close and cherished ones. So, no - it doesn't make you a coward.

Trying to avoid physical conflicts is, in my opinion, also wiser than trying to provoke such. Beating the hell out of someone should be done only for protection or if there is no other way and you've got your back against the wall.

Some people would say sorry just because you didn't expect them to and this gives them some psychological advantage and it also tickles your guilt. In such cases it by no means reflects the real way they feel about the situation.

When someone tries to imply I've said or done something wrong (but I still think I haven't), then I'd just explain why I think they're wrong in their conclusion and that this conclusion is only in their head and doesn't relate to the situation as it is out of context. I'd usually suggest that if they still think that what I said doesn't reflect the situation accordignly, then I'd be more than glad to apologize. Usually no answer follows because I've made a strong point, they see that their little effort to try and make me feel guilty didn't work, they give it a second thought and the fact that I've said I'm ready to apologize (but under the above-mentioned condition) makes them feel uncomfortable.

Hope this didn't make it even more confusing smile
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#469413 - 02/06/12 09:48 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: tekku]
AdamBomb Offline


Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 75
Well, yes, the main thing of self-preservation justifies the whole apologizing. I have apologized before where normally I wouldn't but it was to avoid tension in the workplace and for fear of losing my job as well. I work as a team and not an individual which makes total sense from any perspective whether it's Satanic or not.
What I was curious about though if people had scenarios where they regret apologizing. I did to some degree, but then again I was protecting myself so why regret it? It's probably a subconscious insecurity I have sometimes feeling like I would be a wimp or coward, but it's definitely not as bad as it used to be.

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#469417 - 02/06/12 10:01 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
JDBones Offline


Registered: 01/27/12
Posts: 102
Well, when it's been done, it's done. Nothing you can do about it. Just stay away from people who don't deserve your apology or if you have to be around them, treat them with courtesy or whatever you need to do in order to survive.

But, this convices me even more now that I should at last start founding the basics of guilt-removal surgery - I'm sure I'll make millions out of it! grin
_________________________
Man, I can look at photos of Me for hours! Honestly, I love it!


"'cause down here in Hell everybody loves Me!"
("Hell Is Home", Judas Priest)

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#469418 - 02/06/12 10:16 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
tekku Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 1261
Loc: Behind You
I would like to suggest that you read "The 48 laws of power" by Robert Greene. It will provide you with some perspective in regards to the issues you are asking about.
_________________________
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die
~H.P. Lovecraft~

La bonne cuisine est la base du véritable bonheur ~Escoffier~

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#469427 - 02/06/12 11:47 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
My ego is strong enough to allow me to apologize to people even for things they did wrong, if it means we get to avoid an unnecessary bitch fight.

After all, it really doesn't matter who cut in line, or who bumped whom, or even, who started the argument. If the choice is between being "right," and being happy, I'll generally pick "happy."

On the other hand, I will sometimes err too far in the direction of offering an apology I know to be false, in order to smooth over a conflict, or soothe hurt feelings, and my pride will ache as a result. If I've just played the fool to placate a moron or stroke the ego of a bully, I'll definitely come away feeling some resentment and anger.

Actually, I'm a bit proud of myself, because recently, some people put pressure on me to apologize for stating my opinion on an issue. I apologized and expressed regret for some of the things I'd said earlier on that had been phrased lazily or poorly, and that had caused the conversation to go off on a tangent. I was told this wasn't good enough, and basically asked to try again.

This, naturally, pissed me off, and pretty much killed any desire I had left to try to be the bigger person.

Since the full-on grovel-pology people were waiting for would've basically required me to "admit" to holding a genuinely odious, wrong, and abhorrent straw-man version of my actual opinion, I basically just reiterated my previous argument, reiterated my regrets, and systematically ticked off the exact places and ways I felt I'd been misinterpreted, and left it at that.

It was unusually bitchy behavior for me, but it felt good smile.

I've gotten much better at striking just the right balance than I used to be, and the journey continues.

_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#469444 - 02/07/12 06:31 AM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
There's this fascinating thing about apologies --- once you notice it, you'll see it everywhere.

Many people have the attitude that, if they apologize for something they did wrong, you MUST forgive them. If you don't, they get very angry! And they will resort to guilt tactics: they feel SO BAD, and you are making them suffer further by denying them their absolution. I call it "forgiveness blackmail".

I think it's a useful way to tell the difference between cheap excuses and genuine contrition. If someone is just looking to be let off the hook, they will get very defensive about their own apology. If someone is genuinely contrite, they'll recognize that you don't OWE them forgiveness, they owe you justice.


Edited by reprobate (02/07/12 06:36 AM)
Edit Reason: Correcting a mistype
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#469454 - 02/07/12 10:44 AM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: reprobate]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
Yeah, the guilt thing. It appears to be a favourite manipulative tool in relationships. So much resentment can build that it poisons the whole thing.

I have tried to avoid it; if someone does something wrong, then I do expect them to apologize as acknowledgment of the issue, but do not want them to feel guilty. It actually makes me feel bad that they feel bad. All I want is to fix it, be done with it, and move on.

It rarely happens so neatly in reality.

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#469457 - 02/07/12 11:41 AM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: reprobate]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: reprobate
Many people have the attitude that, if they apologize for something they did wrong, you MUST forgive them. If you don't, they get very angry! And they will resort to guilt tactics: they feel SO BAD, and you are making them suffer further by denying them their absolution. I call it "forgiveness blackmail".


Yup! It's very "kindergarten," in a way, because it reveals an implicit belief that "I'm sorry" is a magic incantation that can be said any-old-way, and it automatically fixes everything.

So, that's how you get, for example, the "I'm sorry you're an idiot"-style apologies.

People need to realize that a good apology is a good start, but it doesn't undo everything that was said and done. You're absolutely right that a sincerely contrite person ideally understands that they are the ones who owe the hurt party justice.

Something that's even difficult for me, at times, is recognizing that a person's feelings are a person's feelings, and attempting to "reason" with someone about their emotions, wants, or needs usually only makes matters worse. (In the heat of the moment, though, it can be pretty hard to keep this in mind.)

Meanwhile, on the other side of the equation, there's also an art to requesting and receiving apologies.

I work with a little kid right now who has learned the power of the apology--because she's been compelled to make several, for hurting, hitting, deceiving, and stealing from peers and adults--and has gotten into the habit of asking for full-on letters from people for, basically, doing anything that annoys, frustrates, or thwarts her.

She has, in other words, Missed the Point. Big time.

(Of course, she also believes that once an apology's been made, the slate's been wiped clean, and you can go back to Shitty Behavior As Usual. Again, kindergarten behavior.)

Since apologies are usually difficult and uncomfortable for the people making them, I think it's also helpful for the apology-receiver to try to be empathic and gracious--though, granted, this can be extremely challenging, when tensions are running high--particularly if the apology-giver appears to be at all sincere. Often, if a well-intentioned apology-giver feels respected and protected, they'll be much more willing to open up, and try to make amends, than if they feel attacked.

In the situation I talked about, my initial apology probably did veer too close to the "I'm sorry you're a crybaby" line. I'm proud that I stuck up for myself, but I still could've done much better, both going into and coming out of that whole encounter.

In my defense, though, the way people were consistently demanding apologies from me and from each other in that whole conversation reminded me too much of my aforementioned kiddo, and how she uses the expression of hurt feelings/offense and the demand for apologies primarily as a way of exacting vengeance and expressing dominance. I don't know if I was hyper-sensitive or on-the-nose here, but it still all-but-nixed my desire to shoulder the responsibility for wrongdoing.

Apologies are Serious Business! laugh
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"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#469462 - 02/07/12 01:21 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: TrojZyr]
Janina Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1484
Loc: Center of my own Universe
Originally Posted By: TrojZyr

Yup! It's very "kindergarten," in a way, because it reveals an implicit belief that "I'm sorry" is a magic incantation that can be said any-old-way, and it automatically fixes everything.



I think that kind of culture comes from Christian believe that you can just ask forgiveness and automatically get it. this kind of believe is, I think, very dangerous habit ones you learn to act like this. it teaches people not to take full responsible for their actions, but move their own responsibility to that other person whom they have been hurting.

Most people nowadays seem to believe that ones you say these magic words "I´m sorry" everything is fixed right away and then you just can continue being piss head like before. Of course if you have done something wrong you have to have guts to apologize, but if you don´t really mean that when you say the word then that´s just one form of hypocrisy.
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#469463 - 02/07/12 01:23 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: TrojZyr]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Quote:
So, that's how you get, for example, the "I'm sorry you're an idiot"-style apologies.

And let's not even get started on "I'm sorry you were offended" non-apologies.

Quote:
I think it's also helpful for the apology-receiver to try to be empathic and gracious

Helpful for what? To what end, I mean? I don't really see much value in making apologies any easier. They should be hard.

ETA: On second thought, I guess you are saying, if someone apologizes to you, don't rub their faces in it. I agree with that. On the other hand, I don't accept apologies where the person doesn't acknowledge some kind of personal responsibility, so I don't believe in being gracious to THOSE kinds of apologies.

On the whole, I think it should not be the job of the aggrieved party to make the apologizer feel better. It should be the apologizer's job to take responsibility.


Edited by reprobate (02/07/12 01:51 PM)
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#469464 - 02/07/12 01:24 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: Janina]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Quote:
I think that kind of culture comes from Christian believe that you can just ask forgiveness and automatically get it.

This might be more true of some denominations than others. Calvinists (incl. Anglicans/Episcos, Presbos, Dutch Reform etc.) don't think this, for example.


Edited by reprobate (02/07/12 01:25 PM)
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#469465 - 02/07/12 02:12 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
I have not read all of the responses here so I well ehm apologize if I am repeating anyone here.

I think apologies can be a useful tool in many circumstances. They can be used to quickly defuse a heated situation or to persuade people that they are right allowing their pretentiousness to bring them to their knees later.

I also think apologizing is best done if you really mean it and not use it as word salad. What's the point in apologizing almost as if you are repenting and not actually changing what you did in the first place?
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#469468 - 02/07/12 03:18 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
anna Offline


Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 219
Loc: Poland
Quote:
Well, yes, the main thing of self-preservation justifies the whole apologizing. I have apologized before where normally I wouldn't but it was to avoid tension in the workplace and for fear of losing my job as well. I work as a team and not an individual which makes total sense from any perspective whether it's Satanic or not.
What I was curious about though if people had scenarios where they regret apologizing. I did to some degree, but then again I was protecting myself so why regret it? It's probably a subconscious insecurity I have sometimes feeling like I would be a wimp or coward, but it's definitely not as bad as it used to be.


Not going into details, I once had a quite unpleasant conversation with my boss who acted unfairly to me. A few weeks earlier she treated my coworker in the same manner. He then told us all how she had treated him. I told her some bitter words and that she treats her employees like dumb illiterate slaves. As she was a bit confused what I was talking about I gave her example of my coworker, without mentioning his name. The next day I felt bad about it, not because I felt guilty, I was not even afraid of losing my job (it was a nuisance) but I did not want such a tense and nervous atmosphere in the place where I worked. So I went to her and apologized for letting my emotions run away with me. She smiled and said that it really did not matter. After a few hours she called my coworker to her room and vented all her fury on him. I do not have to explain how I felt then.

It is understandable that you apologize to avoid tension in your workplace, you spend most of your time there and you would like to avoid uneasy situations. And even if you are going to leave, the reputation of a troublemaker will not serve you in the future.

Apart from this siuation, which was some time ago, I rarely apologize. There is no need for this. However, if you feel that you are in the wrong apologizing is an honourable thing to do. However, it is still better to think twice before doing something stupid than to do it and apologize afterwards.
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#469500 - 02/07/12 10:36 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: reprobate]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
I'm definitely guilty of pulling "I'm sorry you were offended," but you're absolutely right that it's not a "real" apology. Again, it places the ball back in the other person's court.

The sticky wicket I sometimes run into is when there's just been a gross misunderstanding. So, I'm stuck between having to take responsibility for something that wasn't meant--or sometimes, wasn't even said--or, having to explain or deflect in a way that will culminate in one of those lame-ass non-apologies, or something a lot like it. How do you deal with that kind of situation?

Originally Posted By: reprobate

Helpful for what? To what end, I mean? I don't really see much value in making apologies any easier. They should be hard.


I'm pragmatic. I know that the only person I really have control over is myself, so I do what I need to do on my end to try to get the outcome I want.

If I actually want someone to try to make amends, I have a vested interest in not making that process too difficult for them.

I also realize that we all make mistakes, so there certainly are many times where making someone's apology difficult would be douchey and sadistic, in addition to being just plain counterproductive. (Of course, this depends on the crime in question.)

Quote:
On the other hand, I don't accept apologies where the person doesn't acknowledge some kind of personal responsibility, so I don't believe in being gracious to THOSE kinds of apologies.


In theory and in principle, I agree.

In practice, it depends--again, sometimes you have to be pragmatic, bite the bullet, and let a sub-par apology slide.

Quote:
It should be the apologizer's job to take responsibility.


Right. Ideally, it should be.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#469501 - 02/07/12 11:03 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: TrojZyr]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Quote:
The sticky wicket I sometimes run into is when there's just been a gross misunderstanding. So, I'm stuck between having to take responsibility for something that wasn't meant--or sometimes, wasn't even said--or, having to explain or deflect in a way that will culminate in one of those lame-ass non-apologies, or something a lot like it. How do you deal with that kind of situation?

My opinion on this is shaped by my view that the meaning of my words doesn't depend on the thoughts in my head when you say them. So, if I misspoke, if I have ignored or neglected some ambiguity I should reasonably have expected, or if I was otherwise insufficiently careful about how I spoke, I will readily apologize.

The flip side of this, of course, is that the meaning of my words doesn't depend on the thoughts in my listener's head when I say them, either. So, if they have not made a good faith effort to understand me, if they try to impute to me positions that go beyond what I said (not "what I meant" in the sense of the thoughts that were in my head, but the actual objective meaning of my statements), then I won't apologize for that.

Since it's all too easy to let oneself off the hook, I try to compensate by erring on the side of taking more responsibility, rather than less. I am a big believer in charitable interpretation. That said, I do think some people are flat out irresponsible in their approach to communication.

It's a two way street and it requires good faith and good judgment. Generally, if I think I've lost my good standing as a truth-telling person, I'll apologize. If I think they've forfeited their good standing with me as a person entitled to judge me or my views, then I won't apologize.

Quote:
I'm pragmatic. I know that the only person I really have control over is myself, so I do what I need to do on my end to try to get the outcome I want.

This is alien to me. I don't see anything "pragmatic" in this. Whatever outcome is to be had in this way would probably strike me as ceding something more valuable than what is gained.


Edited by reprobate (02/07/12 11:04 PM)
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#469503 - 02/07/12 11:56 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: reprobate]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: reprobate

My opinion on this is shaped by my view that the meaning of my words doesn't depend on the thoughts in my head when you say them. So, if I misspoke, if I have ignored or neglected some ambiguity I should reasonably have expected, or if I was otherwise insufficiently careful about how I spoke, I will readily apologize.


Makes sense to me! You basically apologize for being ignorant, insensitive, clumsy, or neglectful, when you should've known better, then?

Quote:
So, if they have not made a good faith effort to understand me, if they try to impute to me positions that go beyond what I said (not "what I meant" in the sense of the thoughts that were in my head, but the actual objective meaning of my statements), then I won't apologize for that.


Also makes sense.

But, here's a question--how do you differentiate between what words mean in your head, versus what they objectively mean in reality? Meaning, when can you rest easy in the knowledge that you've truly been as clear as you could be?

Quote:
It's a two way street and it requires good faith and good judgment.


Wholeheartedly agreed.

For instance, I'm a big believer in asking for clarification. When in doubt, ask someone what they mean, before assuming they mean the worst. When in doubt, assume ignorance, clumsiness, negligence, or even, stupidity, before assuming outright malice.

Quote:

This is alien to me. I don't see anything "pragmatic" in this. Whatever outcome is to be had in this way would probably strike me as ceding something more valuable than what is gained.


How do you mean?

It is pretty fatalistic, because it's basically me deciding that I have to do everything myself. frown
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#469512 - 02/08/12 03:07 AM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
Sir Schwarzweise Offline


Registered: 02/03/12
Posts: 100
Loc: Hic et Nunc
I think it is good if you feel unpleasant when apologizing. You won't enjoy this feeling and next time you'll think better and act wiser to prevent yourself from getting this feeling again. Apologizing means you brought yourself to a point when you have to admit you have done wrong, so, let that nasty feeling be a punishment for the mind, which will try to avoid it the next time you make choices. I say - apologize, feel bad and learn from it.
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#469518 - 02/08/12 07:45 AM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: TrojZyr]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Quote:
But, here's a question--how do you differentiate between what words mean in your head, versus what they objectively mean in reality? Meaning, when can you rest easy in the knowledge that you've truly been as clear as you could be?

One way is, when there's a discrepancy between what you thought you said and what someone understood, to write it down, take a good hard look at the words and phrasing, dictionary in hand, and ask yourself if someone could hear the same words and legitimately understand a different meaning in them. If you don't see it, you can ask someone whose judgment you trust.

The meaning of words is a matter of convention, so you don't have to be a mind-reader or diviner, you just have to remember that your listener isn't a mind-reader either, and can only understand you to the degree you respect linguistic conventions.

Quote:
How do you mean?

It is pretty fatalistic, because it's basically me deciding that I have to do everything myself. frown

I don't want to bum you out even further about it, but I'll be frank: my worry here is that what you're suggesting is a kind of dissembling. I would feel like my integrity was at stake --- and my integrity is something I think is worth some inconvenience, and worth making enemies for the sake of.
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#469529 - 02/08/12 10:57 AM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Thanks! Both of those make perfect sense, again.

In the case I talked about, I realized that I could've made people "happy" with me, but at the price of rewriting the discussion history, and basically colluding with a serious lie about myself and my values.

Since this was bigger than who cut whom in line at the store, I decided it wasn't worth it. I was willing to take responsibility for what I saw as my part, but not more than that.


Well, and on the "objective language" issue, in this conversation, some of the participants in the discussion stated that the only thing that really mattered was how you interpret someone's statement, not how they meant or intended it. In fact, several people stated outright that intentions "don't matter" to them, period, which I found surprising. That sounds pretty dangerous to me. What do you think?
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#469530 - 02/08/12 10:59 AM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: TrojZyr]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
As I said, my view is that words have objective meanings (or ranges of meaning) that are determined by social conventions for their usage. Sometimes conventions leave legitimate room for differing interpretation. But not all interpretations are legitimate. The thoughts that go through the listener's head are no more material than the thoughts that go through the speaker's head. Speakers are not mind readers any more than listeners are.


Edited by reprobate (02/08/12 11:01 AM)
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#469531 - 02/08/12 11:07 AM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Perfect! Thanks.

I've been mulling over this strange argument over in different ways lately--whether I was consistently fair or unfair, what to do or say in the future, etc., etc.--so I'm glad to get your perspective, since I trust your judgment and your sense of fairness. So, now I have more cud for thought on the matter. smile


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#469549 - 02/08/12 05:20 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: TrojZyr]
Bedlam Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 1658
Loc: Perfidious Albion
Originally Posted By: TrojZyr
Thanks! Both of those make perfect sense, again.

In the case I talked about, I realized that I could've made people "happy" with me, but at the price of rewriting the discussion history, and basically colluding with a serious lie about myself and my values.

Since this was bigger than who cut whom in line at the store, I decided it wasn't worth it. I was willing to take responsibility for what I saw as my part, but not more than that.


Well, and on the "objective language" issue, in this conversation, some of the participants in the discussion stated that the only thing that really mattered was how you interpret someone's statement, not how they meant or intended it. In fact, several people stated outright that intentions "don't matter" to them, period, which I found surprising. That sounds pretty dangerous to me. What do you think?


I think you have been at the Vodka Red Bull, or whatever it is you youngsters drink these days. grin

Either that or my threaded/flat mode thing is all out of clink.


?


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Do I look like I carry a pencil? Jason Statham

It may be Crazy
But I'm the closest thing I have
To a voice of reason


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#469554 - 02/08/12 05:39 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
Bedlam Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 1658
Loc: Perfidious Albion

If you feel you were in the wrong...apologise.

That's not weak...it's just common sense and manners.

If you apologise because the alternative is getting your head kicked in by some goons...that's not weak either. That's self preservation.

Others in this thread seem to have wandered off into unnecessary philosophical jumbo. Although, I think they're having fun with it. grin


The only complications that arise with apologies, is when you are a bloke, trying to figure out just what it is you should be apologising for to your enigmatic other-half. smile

wink
_________________________
Wine for my men, we ride at dawn...

Do I look like I carry a pencil? Jason Statham

It may be Crazy
But I'm the closest thing I have
To a voice of reason


~ Gil Scott Heron




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#469568 - 02/08/12 08:18 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Never apologize! Tell them all to get lost and stand your ground!

Wait . . .

That is bad advice.

Sorry for feeding you a bunch of bull. eek
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#469755 - 02/12/12 03:30 AM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
StabAvery Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 717
Loc: michigan
I have good manners and say things like "sir, mam, and Thank you". If some fool walks into me while I'm shopping with my kid, The first thing that comes out of my mouth is "I'm sorry!, are you OK?". I hold doors for people arriving just behind me (this includes grotesquely fat men as well as beautiful women). I always buy when I am out to eat with others and I always tip exceedingly well.

My physical appearance throws most people off, so it normally comes as doubly a surprise. And I am near famous around here for using the catch phrase, "The Devil is always a perfect gentlemen".

Why on earth would you feel regret for showing common courtesy when you are obviously better than that? If you need to question things like that, perhaps you need to re-evaluate your self confidence. If you run into situations like that quite often, perhaps you need to re-evaluate your presentation.
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#469758 - 02/12/12 04:17 AM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: StabAvery]
Janina Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1484
Loc: Center of my own Universe
Originally Posted By: StabAvery
I have good manners and say things like "sir, mam, and Thank you". If some fool walks into me while I'm shopping with my kid, The first thing that comes out of my mouth is "I'm sorry!, are you OK?". I hold doors for people arriving just behind me (this includes grotesquely fat men as well as beautiful women). I always buy when I am out to eat with others and I always tip exceedingly well.

My physical appearance throws most people off, so it normally comes as doubly a surprise. And I am near famous around here for using the catch phrase, "The Devil is always a perfect gentlemen".

Why on earth would you feel regret for showing common courtesy when you are obviously better than that? If you need to question things like that, perhaps you need to re-evaluate your self confidence. If you run into situations like that quite often, perhaps you need to re-evaluate your presentation.



I think that one should show others the same respect what he is waiting for others to give him. I don´t see Satanism as an excuse for being an asshole to others, but try to allways be friendly and polite to people who I meet. Of course if some one starts pick a fight with me I can be very bitch and ruin their day with rudeness. Still whenever I feel I have done something wrong I say I am sorry, of course. I don´t still ask forgiveness for being myself.

It is far more easier nowadays be mean and close minded than show respect for all the creatures as they are.


Edited by Janina (02/12/12 04:46 AM)
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#469766 - 02/12/12 09:32 AM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
Cause and effect is the great mediator here.

There are some people who get a stick up their ass when they discover something new, whether that be Satanism, Christianity, or hell I don't know, Scientology even. They start believing they are bullet proof, as if they were the first person in the universe to stumble upon this cool new thing, and it gives them a sense of empowerment. The long and short of this is that some of them flaunt it outwardly when they never did before, all too quick to educate the rest of the world about their new found muse. At the same time, some of them become self righteous pricks who start believing things such as the fact that they are infallible and don't need to apologize when they make a mistake.

But ultimately none of this matters because of cause and effect. Anyone who has any sense will see them for the belligerent cunt they are being, will view them as an arrogant unapologetic swine, and will not want to ever have anything to do with them again.

To answer the query, you don't have to apologize to anyone for anything. You can think you are right all the time and that the rest of the world is wrong. But ultimately, it is people who will make the decision whether you float or sink in this world unless your only ambition is to sit in a dark room typing opinions on a forum. And if you treat people badly, which is what something as simple as refusing to admit your mistakes is doing, they will make sure you fail at each and every turn in your life.

Not because they are jealous, not because they want what you have, and not because they are petty or vengeful; simply because nobody likes an asshole, and its really, really fun to pull their pants around their ankles and chuck a pie in their face.

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#469768 - 02/12/12 11:01 AM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: TheDegenerate]
StabAvery Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 717
Loc: michigan
Well put TheDegenerate, I would also like to add that I am out in a small town and around here not showing proper respect (even if it is warranted)could really cost you. Some of these gigantic farm boys might not understand your quick wit and just punch your teeth into the back of your throat simply out of ignorance. It pays to present yourself well.
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#469774 - 02/12/12 01:02 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
G.F.V. Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/31/04
Posts: 1951
Loc: NYC
If you accidentally bump into somebody, miss an appointment or an obligation, or make an honest mistake otherwise, then in such a case it'll never hurt to give a sincere apology.

If, however, someone is being a complete asshole towards you (i.e. making unnecessary demands, badgering you for things you have no control over) without demonstrating any consideration towards your end, then that person doesn't deserve an apology.

Being overapologetic is a waste of time, energy, and dignity.

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#470010 - 02/15/12 08:43 PM Re: Apologies (un)accepted [Re: AdamBomb]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 757
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
Here's my opinion:

Apologies with sincerity and a follow up action to reinforce the sincerity can solve problems.

Being overly apologetic, lack the sincerity, and/or the follow up action will damage your credibility and ultimately destroy your chances of a solution thus worsening the problem.

Saying you're sorry, in my opinion, is not necessarily ruled out of Satanism. Just the habit of constantly saying it is.

It brings me back to looking at the Counterproductive Pride, Sin #8.

Quote:
8. Counterproductive Pride—That first word is important. Pride is great up to the point you begin to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The rule of Satanism is: if it works for you, great. When it stops working for you, when you’ve painted yourself into a corner and the only way out is to say, I’m sorry, I made a mistake, I wish we could compromise somehow, then do it.


Edited by LordofDarkness (02/15/12 08:52 PM)
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