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#470836 - 03/03/12 03:52 AM Re: Giving opinions and advices? [Re: Bedlam]
NapalmNick Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 2151
I'd say your example would be an exception to such situations, not the rule. Honesty and open communication between friends is important, I think. I would rather suffer momentary embarrassment by a friend telling me I was being foolish/making a bad decision than for them to stay silent and allow me to run into far worse. I try my best to do the same for them. It isn't always the most comfortable thing, but hey, that's what friends are for.

The real ones anyhow. wink
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"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris; not the end." --Leonard Nimoy as Captain Spock in The Undiscovered Country

"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." --George Carlin, Playin' With Your Head

"[There is] no contradiction between saying 'evolution has no purpose' and 'organisms have purposes'; just different vocabularies for different levels of description." --Sean Carroll

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#470838 - 03/03/12 04:11 AM Re: Giving opinions and advices? [Re: NapalmNick]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1812
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: NapalmNick
I would rather suffer momentary embarrassment by a friend telling me I was being foolish/making a bad decision than for them to stay silent and allow me to run into far worse. I try my best to do the same for them. It isn't always the most comfortable thing, but hey, that's what friends are for.


One can always ask "Are you sure about this?" or "Are you aware that xxx ?"

This first opens up the opportunity for them to indicate whether the opinion is welcome. The second states some information, the other is take it into consideration or not. Some people do need to learn things the hard way - as a young person I wouldn't have taken the advice I give today smile
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While having never invented a sin, I'm trying to perfect several.

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#470840 - 03/03/12 06:17 AM Re: Giving opinions and advices? [Re: Janina]
Sir Schwarzweise Offline


Registered: 02/03/12
Posts: 100
Loc: Hic et Nunc
If you ask me - I repeat - if you ask me, since that is the discussed part, I would say giving a suggestion is always better than giving advice. A suggestion is the passive form of the same thought, while advice is a degrading transaction towards it's target (seen from the view of psychology).

You have full right for having your opinion - as a fact, any external, objective information perceived by us is being interpreted subjectively in the first stage of the process of cognition, so it is inevitable - but sharing this opinion, whether in a passive or active form, is a question of every situation.

If you give advice - you are responsible for it. This can be seen as taking the responsibility for someone else's choices, just because "you thought you knew better". Correct me if I am wrong (yes, you are asked), but I conclude that giving advice means:

Taking responsibility, consciously or not, for the choices of (an) other individual(s).

This can lead to the following:
1) You will relieve the target from responsibility and, perhaps, suffer from the effects of his/her choice. (Some people are using this to blame others for their choices - "You said this was better!")

2) You will try to relieve the target from responsibility and offend this person, for you will be understood as showing your superiority and hindering the target make own, independent decisions. (Often seen by older people - they like to show their experience and wisdom based on it, although not taking in account others may not want to give away their responsibility)

My advice is ( grin) - bear your responsibility and let others bear theirs.
_________________________
"I'll give you black sensations up and down your spine
If you're into evil, you're a friend of mine..."




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#470845 - 03/03/12 11:13 AM Re: Giving opinions and advices? [Re: Quaark]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
In addition to what both Reverends have said CoS Member Noel wrote a wonderful essay titled On Satanic Textualism.

Also straight from the High Priest's essay Rebels Without Cause: They observe our list of “sins” and “rules” and don’t grasp that such terms are used with tongue firmly planted in cheek, while simultaneously missing the point that there is an ethical structure to our philosophy—our “third side” which is so elusive to those limited to dualist thinking. These lists are guidelines and tools based on keen observation of human social behavior, not arbitrary regulations or “shalt nots” handed down from “on high” or belched forth from “down below.” Each Satanist is welcome to take ‘em out for a test drive and see how they work. Most of us find them to be both accurate and useful. That’s why we adopt “Satanist” as a proper label for ourselves—Anton LaVey’s philosophy is completely coincident with our personal approach to living.

Satanism is a philosophy already coherent in your daily personal life. No interpretation needed.
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#470846 - 03/03/12 11:15 AM Re: Giving opinions and advices? [Re: Bedlam]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Well, and Luthor has actually illustrated a very important point here, which is that someone can ask for advice, without actually asking for advice.

There are plenty of ways of putting yourself out there that essentially open you up to criticism and advice--whether you're ready for it, or not!

For example, when you agree to enter into a certain kind of relationships--Teacher-Student, Doctor-Patient, Therapist-Client, Master-Apprentice--you effectively consent to give or receive advice and counsel, in exchange for continuing to reap the benefits of that relationship.

Or, of course, when you air your opinion in a public forum, you're basically consenting to have other people reply to you with their opinions.

A request for help or advice can also be communicated through symbolic actions, or body language, or even, outlandish, attention-grabbing behavior.

I'd also say that those who are quick or willing to give advice, must also generally be ready (if not willing) to also receive it.
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"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#470891 - 03/04/12 05:19 AM Re: Giving opinions and advices? [Re: Sir Schwarzweise]
XUL Offline


Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 238
Loc: Oslo, Norway
Originally Posted By: Sir Schwarzweise
I conclude that giving advice means:
Taking responsibility, consciously or not, for the choices of (an) other individual(s).


I completely agree!

This, of course, can lead you to god-knows-where in terms of consequences further on down the road. Which in turn, I suppose, is why the wiser people among us hesitate to give advice, even if asked, because they do in fact know better.
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The Maxistic Paradigm

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#470896 - 03/04/12 09:18 AM Re: Giving opinions and advices? [Re: NapalmNick]
thorn9 Offline


Registered: 03/13/10
Posts: 119
"Napalm" Exactly! If my friends did not care enough to give me their opinions or advice then what is the point of having them as friends? I would get new friends in a hurry. I want them to care enough to offer opinions and advice even if I do not ask it just as I do for them at times. And many times it was a good thing that I did for them or that they did for me.

A Satanist has to make up their own mind about things as that is the point. Like I said earlier I could have easily have used rule number 11 recently in a situation that came up. But I am glad I didn't! I would have to have been a real jerk to have done so in that particular situation.

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#470897 - 03/04/12 09:44 AM Re: Giving opinions and advices? [Re: Torrent]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1019
An easy way for someone to figure out whether or not he or she is about to give unsolicited advice where doing so would be less than self-serving is to pay attention to whether he or she experiences niggling doubt, or not. If the question "Should I really even go there?" arises, he or she might probably be better off not going there. Of course, that can sometimes backfire, particularly on the stupid or ignorant who are simply far too unattuned to have or notice such a niggling doubt.

Just glossing over the Rules and Sins, I couldn't quite find a perfect fit for "Pay Attention!" or "Context Matters" but those cross-cutting concerns serve your point well here, I think.
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#470900 - 03/04/12 10:08 AM Re: Giving opinions and advices? [Re: Janina]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
Whenever I find myself in this situation one of the first things that comes to mind is a Herbert Spencer quote that Doktor LaVey included just before the contents page in The Satanic Rituals.
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�Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.�
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

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#470904 - 03/04/12 10:32 AM Re: Giving opinions and advices? [Re: XUL]
Janina Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1447
Loc: Center of my own Universe
Originally Posted By: XUL
Originally Posted By: Sir Schwarzweise
I conclude that giving advice means:
Taking responsibility, consciously or not, for the choices of (an) other individual(s).


I completely agree!

This, of course, can lead you to god-knows-where in terms of consequences further on down the road. Which in turn, I suppose, is why the wiser people among us hesitate to give advice, even if asked, because they do in fact know better.



That´s actually very good point. If we tell to somebody what he or she should or should not do are we really ready to take responsibility of the causes of that decision?


Edited by Janina (03/04/12 10:33 AM)
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#470945 - 03/05/12 04:52 AM Re: Giving opinions and advices? [Re: Janina]
Sir Schwarzweise Offline


Registered: 02/03/12
Posts: 100
Loc: Hic et Nunc
By giving advice we - again, consciously or not - wish to whether satisfy our own need to help someone we feel sympathies for, or to satisfy that someone's need to get some support when choosing.

I think the following.
*Getting advice does not obligate you to any actions, so, let those who have the need to speak satisfy their need. But, be warned that their advice is first of all meant to satisfy them.
*Giving advice means taking responsibility - think whether the person wants to give away this responsibility (and why you should take it), or does the person wish to take responsibility for his/her choices.

If I feel a passive position is wrong in the particular situation, I prefer to give critique, rather than advice. Critique delivers the thought that should affect the person you wish to affect, but does not bind you to responsibility - advice is expected to be followed, critique is meant to show a different view on the topic, which can also lead the target to making the right decision.
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"I'll give you black sensations up and down your spine
If you're into evil, you're a friend of mine..."




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#470953 - 03/05/12 11:07 AM Re: Giving opinions and advices? [Re: Janina]
Callier Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 2194
Constructive criticism is one thing but people that just point blank tell others what they should be doing with their lives without any kind of permission can eat a bag of hairy balls.

Only you know what you want in life. Everyone has their own desires, agendas and goals. If somebody is trying to guide your life without your consent then you best believe they got some ulterior motives.
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$$$ Get Rich or Die Tryin' $$$

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#471028 - 03/06/12 01:53 PM Re: Giving opinions and advices? [Re: Janina]
Riddles Offline


Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 82
Loc: Maryland
This is certainly the rule that I have violated the most. In my experience, it's an excellent rule, and in each instance, I would have been best off following it.

Regarding disagreement...the Satanic Bible's call to "question all things" certainly applies to Satanism itself, but if that questioning leads to rejection of core principles, then right or wrong, one should recognize that the "Satanist" label no longer applies to that individual.

I have no issues with any of the rules. To roughly paraphrase Magister Nemo, Satanism is a finger that points to reality. The rules are pretty natural consequences of the acceptance of that reality. If you don't agree, do what I did...ignore the rule and learn the hard way. Maybe the rules don't seem so obvious to some, but I would say that is because so many view the world through the lens of Judeo-Christian culture and morality. For example, if I were asked to explain the differences between Satanism and Humanism, one difference I would note is that Humanists' view of reality is unknowingly influenced by Christian morality, whereas Satanism sheds this unnecessary and harmful layer, so it doesn't surprise me that a non-religious person such as a Humanist would not see these things as obvious. These are the same people who believe "love thy neighbor" is something completely natural and inherent while falsely rejecting the Christian influence on that attitude.
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"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first."
--Mark Twain

"Egoism is the very essence of a noble soul."
--Friedrich Nietzsche

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#471037 - 03/06/12 09:21 PM Re: Giving opinions and advices? [Re: Janina]
Belianon Offline


Registered: 12/18/11
Posts: 14
Loc: French overseas
One way to follow this rule could be to ask :
"Would you want to know my thought on it?"

This automatically prevent you from being arrogant and you will know without a doubt if your interlocutor want your opinion or not because now he will be compelled to ask for one if really wanted.

This will also inform you if your interlocutor is seeking answers or debate, or a simple emotional comforting by being listened.

Indeed, to follow this Rule of Earth is time and energy saving.


Edited by Belianon (03/06/12 10:35 PM)
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"Don't wish it were easier; wish you were better.
Don't wish for less problems; wish for more skills.
Don't wish for less challenges; wish for more wisdom."
- Jim Rohn

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#471040 - 03/07/12 12:28 AM Re: Giving opinions and advices? [Re: Hatred_Incarnate]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10562
Loc: England
Indeed, it isn't a question of interpretation. The 11 Satanic Rules are quite forthright.

It is however a question of using one's tact. grin


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"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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