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#471792 - 03/22/12 02:43 PM Gay Marriage
Janina Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1458
Loc: Center of my own Universe
For all who are interested about this issue you may read my new blog. Why do I support gay marriages from here:

http://bloodytrick.blogspot.com/2012/03/why-do-i-support-gay-marriages.html

Please, discuss!
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#471793 - 03/22/12 04:41 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Janina]
anna Offline


Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 219
Loc: Poland
Quote:
Why Church even has the right to say what is wrong and what is right?


Everybody should have a right to say what is right and what is wrong, to express an opinion, even a strong one, as long as one does not force one's beliefs on other people. Unfortunately, many Church people are arrogant, thinking they are better than others and judging others openly and ruthlessly. On the other hand, they are not so critical of their own sins, which they call "weaknesses". There are rumours that many young Catholic priests engage in homosexual activities in their seminaries. The reason for this is simple: the repression of a sexual drive which must be somehow released. Celibacy is good for angels but not for human beings.

The most annoying can be a government's submission to any religion, while it should stay neutral. It is not only a matter of morality issues but also giving the Church hierarchy financial privileges that other citizens do not have.

Quote:
I started to study this issue and find out that worldwide we have some 1500 different animal species who practice homosexual activities. Over 500 species has been even documented.


They also engage in other sinful activities: grin

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#471796 - 03/22/12 06:22 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Janina]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8262
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx

From the blog: "Even if we watch the reason to deny homosexuality thousands a years ago we do not find reasons to claim it to unnatural. Love is love with all these 1500 homo species."

How does the blogger arrive at the conclusion that there is love involved here? No evidence is presented.

And while some still argue about homosexuality being unnatural, which it isn't, it certainly is not the norm.

Some species kill their mates, some devour their offspring. That is also natural, but not the norm.



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#471825 - 03/23/12 12:17 AM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Phineas]
Janina Offline
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Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1458
Loc: Center of my own Universe
Originally Posted By: Phineas
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx

From the blog: "Even if we watch the reason to deny homosexuality thousands a years ago we do not find reasons to claim it to unnatural. Love is love with all these 1500 homo species."

How does the blogger arrive at the conclusion that there is love involved here? No evidence is presented.

And while some still argue about homosexuality being unnatural, which it isn't, it certainly is not the norm.

Some species kill their mates, some devour their offspring. That is also natural, but not the norm.



Thank you Magister Phineas and Anna both for reading and commenting my text. To the Anna´s message I would comment that everybody indeed should have right to say their opinion about politics, religion and legal questions. I am not fascist but believe in freedom of speech. What I meant by the argument is why Christian Church should anyhow be the instance to decide about gay marriages. This in my thinking means that maybe we should consider that all marriages would be civil marriages and religious societies would decide after that whom they bless amd whom not marriage. This kind of system works for example in Thailand where the couple takes the buddhist monk to bless them after their marriage. Now here where I live this issue was "hot potato" some time ago but though we have civil marriage we also have state church so in every discussion there is always some priests telling what the church wants. Same time many gays say that why should they be interested about the thing what church wants?

For Magister Phineas I would comment that you are right when you say that we have no proof about love with these animals, do we actually have any proof about love even when speaking about human beings, except the feeling itself. My saying in this blog was actually metaphor for mating signals. For example penguins have had same sex couples living together for their entire life and we even have evidence about male penguin couple who started to hatch penguins egg when they found one. My metaphor tried to express that many species have same sex couples and activities so claims against homosexuality by saying it is unnatural does not work. It is just idea! Love is matter of speaking where I say that will to act or will to be together is natural.

I do not try to say that homosexuality would be norm. We live in society where heteronormativity is the social norm and homosexuality will always be minority. So yes it is not norm. Though it is not norm it is natural way for some people and that naturality is the thing I support. Freedom to be what you are not matter are you straight or gay!


Edited by Janina (03/23/12 12:24 AM)
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#471897 - 03/24/12 07:16 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Janina]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11547
Loc: New England, USA
Since this topic has come up, I think it's worth mentioning this essay from the COS site:
http://churchofsatan.com/Pages/FoundingFamily.html

My own reasons for wanting to allow gay marriage is pretty simple: I see absolutely no reason why homosexual couples shouldn't be able to go to city hall and obtain a marriage license. I have yet to hear a valid reason why, for example, a gay couple who has already bought a house, set up a joint checking account, and may have even adopted children, should suddenly not have the option of filing a joint 1040 tax return.

Originally Posted By: Janina
For Magister Phineas I would comment that you are right when you say that we have no proof about love with these animals, do we actually have any proof about love even when speaking about human beings, except the feeling itself.

A lot of this just begs the question of how one is defining "love". I'm sure anybody could come up with a definition which a pair of monogamously mating animals could even match. Regardless, love is completely irrelevant to the issue here. Marriage is a LEGAL institution. Whatever emotions a married couple decides to have for each other is obviously beyond the scope of what the government can do.

Quote:
Why Church even has the right to say what is wrong and what is right?

Any religious institution has the right to claim "what is wrong and what is right". Of course, we're under no obligation to agree with them. Likewise, individual religious institutions have the right to deny marriage ceremonies to whoever they want, but couples looking to marry always have other options.

More importantly, the US isn't a theocracy, so religious dogma is (or at least should be) irrelevant to whether gay couples should be able to get legally married. I know that some other countries have an official/state church, though I don't know how this affects the process of getting a marriage license in the respective country.
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#471900 - 03/24/12 07:47 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Phineas]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
love involved here? No evidence is presented.

You'd be hard pressed to prove the existence of love in humans. Abstract concepts are a bitch that way.
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#471908 - 03/24/12 11:42 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Bedlam Offline

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Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 1656
Loc: Perfidious Albion
*swoon*

You're such an old romantic.

wink
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#471909 - 03/24/12 11:54 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Janina]
Bedlam Offline

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Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 1656
Loc: Perfidious Albion
Had the "usual" Daily Mail bullshit here regarding Gay marriage in the UK.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/articl...y-marriage.html
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#472074 - 03/29/12 04:01 AM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Bill_M]
Janina Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1458
Loc: Center of my own Universe
Originally Posted By: Bill_M
Since this topic has come up, I think it's worth mentioning this essay from the COS site:
http://churchofsatan.com/Pages/FoundingFamily.html
...
More importantly, the US isn't a theocracy, so religious dogma is (or at least should be) irrelevant to whether gay couples should be able to get legally married. I know that some other countries have an official/state church, though I don't know how this affects the process of getting a marriage license in the respective country.


Good text from our High Priest Peter H.Gilmore. I have always respected his words and thoughts!

Here where I live in northern Europe, we have this little religious dilemma in our legal system that we have law for religious freedom and equality. That law gives us right to have education in our own religion in schools (so kids who come from Islamic families in public school have religious teaching in islam, buddhist in buddhism etc.) If you are member of religious society which has the status of official religion. This works also with funerals, wedding, and stuff like that. Same time than we have this law we still have the state church which in our country is Lutheran Church and they have more voice and more weight than other religions.

We have also civil wedding in our country as possibility to people non-christian or people who for their own reasons do not want Church wedding. We do not have the same sex marriage here. We have the concept of the registered relationship for gay- and lesbian people but that does not include same juridical rights than marriage like right to adopt child or rights like that..


Edited by Janina (03/29/12 09:38 PM)
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#472091 - 03/29/12 09:41 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
StabAvery Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 717
Loc: michigan
Quote:
love involved here? No evidence is presented.


I have always looked at love as a folder to put a few mixed emotions into and call it one name, like a good mixed drink. I honestly don't think it exists other than a blanket term so we can move on with our conversation.

On the gay marriage topic, I do not see a difference in it from any other committed couple so they should get the tax benefits too.
I really do recommend Norm McDonald's "me doing stand up", bit about parents gay pride. It's currently playing on Netflix if you have it.
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#472092 - 03/29/12 10:10 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Janina]
Janina Offline
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Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1458
Loc: Center of my own Universe
Originally Posted By: Janina
Love is matter of speaking where I say that will to act or will to be together is natural.

I do not try to say that homosexuality would be norm. We live in society where heteronormativity is the social norm and homosexuality will always be minority. So yes it is not norm. Though it is not norm it is natural way for some people and that naturality is the thing I support. Freedom to be what you are not matter are you straight or gay!


Like I said in the answer I wrote for Magister Phineas, I used the word love as metaphor and my intent was to symbolically say the thing that for some species and individuals it is totally natural to have these activities and even "gay couples" if we like to use the term. This naturalness is the thing I support. To me it is like High Priest Gilmore said "Satanism is the only religion which approve man as he is"

I do not see we have any kind of evidence that thing called love even exist other way than just expression. We all have our own motives for doing what we do so some may want to get married for money, some for safety feeling, some maybe because of social norms or the marriage status. Reasons are many.
Like I married my husband cause I found him to be man who respected me as individual and support all my personal choices which makes me fall for him every day again.

Then why I used the word love is quite simple. I am romantic and like beautiful things like candles, symphonies and stuff like that, so that is the reason for word love!


Edited by Janina (03/29/12 10:20 PM)
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#473088 - 04/17/12 03:27 AM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Janina]
LightAngel Offline


Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 1674
Loc: Denmark
I also support gay marriages, but I don't understand why some of them want to get married inside a Christian Church!?

Anyway,

I'm sure you know about Quentin Crisp?! - If you don't then here he his, I really like him smile


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#473095 - 04/17/12 07:15 AM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: LightAngel]
Janina Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1458
Loc: Center of my own Universe
[i][/i]
Originally Posted By: LightAngel
I also support gay marriages, but I don't understand why some of them want to get married inside a Christian Church!?


Me neither. That was actually one of the best comments I have heard when dicussion about this issue was in national broadcast and one gayman said in this live talk show 'Why these Christian people here assume that we are interested about their mercy'. No one of the Lutheran priests on the show could not answer to that one.. smile


Edited by Janina (04/17/12 07:17 AM)
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#473107 - 04/17/12 12:14 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Janina]
Psychotherapeut Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 05/13/06
Posts: 456
I couldn't care less about two gay people being married. I think it is paperwork, and they should be entitled to the same tax and insurance rights as any straight married couple. It is not relevant nor logical to bring theology into the equation, but it threatens the stranglehold church heiarchy holds over the concept of marriage in general. If government is not to have any influence on what happens in my bed room, I certainly would not advocate any church having such power either. It would be a boring experience if they did...
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#473108 - 04/17/12 12:20 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Psychotherapeut]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8823
Why should straights deny gays the joys of divorce, custody battles, greedy lawyers, and alimony?
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