Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#474703 - 05/16/12 09:08 PM Opinions of Straight Edge?
Tony Nine Offline


Registered: 05/04/12
Posts: 7

I am interested in what the opinion of Satanists would be on the Straight Edge subculture.

The reason I ask is because it is an example of a leaderless philosophy with no official organizational representation. Like Satanism there is basic dogma (no drugs, no alcohol, no tobacco, no "casual" sex) and universal symbolism (such as "X" and "24"), but unlike Satanism it is not a religion. Much like Satanism there are individuals who reflect on it in a positive way and others negatively based on their own combination of understanding and motivations.

So the question would be, is this something that would be generally considered compatible with Satanism?

Top
#474704 - 05/16/12 09:23 PM Re: Opinions of Straight Edge? [Re: Tony Nine]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11535
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: Tony Nine
So the question would be, is this something that would be generally considered compatible with Satanism?

I'm familiar with the straight-edge ("sXe") subculture. At first glance it seems like a blatant contradiction to the first Satanic Statement. But it depends on the individual Satanist, obviously.

I'm amused by the fact that the straight-edge phenonemon exists. It's a testament to the fact that there's nothing inherently rebellious about youth into drinking and doing drugs, and in fact it's so expected that abstaining from them is in some sense the more "rebellious" thing to do. Unfortunately I see a lot of pretentiousness attached to the straight-edge subculture. Like vegans, most of them are caught up in a stupid game of more-abstaining-than-thou. Talk about unsatanic!

If a Satanist chooses to be one who abstains from alcohol, meat, or whatever else are the requirements for straight-edge (the exact list seems to change from straight-edger to straight-edger), then that's his or her own prerogative. There's nothing indulgent about doing something you don't want to partake in. But there's nothing particularly Satanic about embracing it as an identity and taking it to pretentious levels.
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

(Wenn du Google's Übersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)

Top
#474705 - 05/16/12 09:24 PM Re: Opinions of Straight Edge? [Re: Tony Nine]
J. Favenris Offline



Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 150
Loc: Portland, Oregon
It's not that the two don't share some similar basic ethics (self-discipline, desire for success, proper care of one's own self), but that there isn't a clear enough connection between the two. There isn't an official Satanic rule in favor of or against being "straight edge" other that the Church of Satan doesn't tolerate any criminal behavior.

For some people, life is better without any sort of intoxication. Others may be bored in lifelong abstinence for alcohol or something of the sort, and responsibly indulge in their vice of choice.

But inherently, there isn't a "pro" or "against" opinion from the Satanic front other than "to each his own."
_________________________
"Training is nothing! The will is everything! The will to act." - Ra's al Ghul

Top
#474708 - 05/16/12 10:00 PM Re: Opinions of Straight Edge? [Re: Bill_M]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
My admittedly-limited experience with straight-edgers has been that they can be pretentious, haughty, and holier-than-thou.

By all means, abstain from drugs and alcohol if that works for you. But, not doing drugs or alcohol is a very, very silly thing to feel especially proud of, or, especially, base your identity on.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

Top
#474713 - 05/17/12 12:45 AM Re: Opinions of Straight Edge? [Re: TrojZyr]
Janina Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1449
Loc: Center of my own Universe
Straight Edge is the movement which basically got started by one Hardcore band called Minor Threat. These fellows from Washington, U.S.A started the band and made song called Straight Edge which became to be the name of the movement.
I personally know many "Punks" who label themselves with the term Straight Edge but I personally donīt like the idea of converting people to behind of one philosophy though I support the idea of not drinking or using drugs.

In Satanism I would bring to discussion the "third side perspective". Some of the SxE people may be sometimes quite intolerant and narrow-minded with their philosophy and actually it is kind of religion for some of them.
I respect their strictness but donīt respect the fact that many SxEīs actually come to be followers of the Hare Krsna religion, which is very theistic and dogmatic "one god, one truth" religion based Swami Prabhupada some mid sixties.

My opinion is that Satanist may be SxE, but being SxE does not make one Satanist. Many Satanists are absolutists and many drink some alcohol. The choice is always individuals own!

_________________________
Devilīs Advocate

Top
#474736 - 05/17/12 12:10 PM Re: Opinions of Straight Edge? [Re: Tony Nine]
Shade Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 6133
Loc: A Trailer Park
Ah, those were the days... grin

I was 16 or so and lived in the D.C. area during Minor Threat/Fugazi's hey day. I just liked the music and the energy of their performances. It was a great way to vent, get violent and vixen it up. Minus a few black eyes I got it all seemed pretty harmless. I was such a sucker for shaved heads and Doc Martens. grin

More political than religious if memory serves. I'm not sure if there was any official association at the time but remember those boys being kind of silly, taking themselves far too seriously. I probably had way too much fun teasing them about it.

"Mr Inside-Outsky just like some God-damned Bolshevik picking up his orders from Yegg Central...."

grin crossbones grin

Which certainly didn't endear me to them. That and some craziness about not eating cheeseburgers or drinking coffee kept me from being part of the group.

Anyway, it's really a subculture I associate with that highschool age, with immaturity (I guess). And I think teens and young adults, in general, are kind of prone to quite a few Satanic sins. Uh, heh, if not all of them.
_________________________
"What happens in the shadow, in the grey regions, also interests us – all that is elusive and fugitive, all that can be said in those beautiful half tones, or in whispers, in deep shade." ~ The Brothers Quay

We're Just Regular People

Top
#474750 - 05/17/12 01:41 PM Re: Opinions of Straight Edge? [Re: Tony Nine]
Prometheus Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/25/05
Posts: 1116
Loc: Germany
That used to be my lifestyle for quite some time. I haven't shifted much from it since, except for the fact that I have returned to eating meat & that I have a glass of good champagne on special occasions. To me there is no indulgence in consuming alcohol, tobacco or other drugs, but this is surely just a matter of personal preference.

sXe was no more than a personal choice in my case resulting from experiences with peers & buddies getting involved with heavy alcohol consumption & other compulsive habits. I had seen former friends turn into complete assholes getting absorbed in the sutpidity of weekends consisting of nothing but drinking orgies. At that time I felt that I needed to draw a clear division-line between them & myself. It coincided with my involvement with the Hardcore-scene & discovering sXe came shortly after. sXe just gave a name to the way I had chosen to live my life resonated strongly with my musical likes. Minor Threat was one of the bands it started with, but I enjoyed the aggressive & militant note that Judge presented on "Bringing It Down" more. Though it also found expression in my outward appearance, I refrained from engaging in any of the unpleasant habits of some in that sub-culure (compulsive activism, evangelizing, using the label as substitute for identity, etc.). Every sub-culture has its share of counter-productive dynamics & sXe is no different of course. Starting with the second wave, there were many who made a fashion-thing out of it & then all of sudden disappeared just to pop up in the next best fashionable sub-culture. Others fell for the religious & political currents that started to infiltrate the sub-culture in the mid-1990s. Herd mentality remains herd mentality after all.

My attitude towards substance abuse has never changed much & I have never felt it to be contradictory to myself being a Satanist. Both came just naturally.
_________________________

HAIL SATAN!

Prometheus











Top
#474751 - 05/17/12 01:42 PM Re: Opinions of Straight Edge? [Re: Shade]
Janina Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1449
Loc: Center of my own Universe
Originally Posted By: Shade
More political than religious if memory serves.


I have also loved the music and style of these bands. Their energetic way to play fast with strong political statements. Their shaved heads and tattooed arms etc, but I never got into their "herd conformism".

There were few bands who had more spiritual ideas about SxE than purely political ideology. These are of course just few examples.

First band called Shelter (previous Youth of Today)

Shelter

Then hardcore band Better than a Thousand:

Better than a thousand

Hardcore band 108 Their name comes from the number of beads on the Japa mala, or mantra counting beads:

108

Krishna Conscious record company Equal Vision Records:

Equal Vision Records

Sri Kesava:

_________________________
Devilīs Advocate

Top
#474752 - 05/17/12 02:28 PM Re: Opinions of Straight Edge? [Re: TrojZyr]
RoyceDavis Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 11/15/10
Posts: 133
Loc: Ukiah, Ca. US
Originally Posted By: TrojZyr
My admittedly-limited experience with straight-edgers has been that they can be pretentious, haughty, and holier-than-thou.

By all means, abstain from drugs and alcohol if that works for you. But, not doing drugs or alcohol is a very, very silly thing to feel especially proud of, or, especially, base your identity on.


I agree with this statement completely.

Also, there is hypocrisy in all groups of people, and the individual is not always the essence of the group, but the identifier a person chooses to be known by says volumes about their personality. I prefer people who choose to be identified by what they do, instead of what they don't do.
_________________________
___
Royce A. Davis
On the web:http://www.chimpwithagun.com
On Undercroft

Top
#474753 - 05/17/12 03:16 PM Re: Opinions of Straight Edge? [Re: Janina]
Shade Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 6133
Loc: A Trailer Park
Okey dokey. I never really paid attention to all that, was more interested in flirting with boys. Unfortunately, every single skinhead in the world does not look like Russell Crow in Romper Stomper.

Actually, that's probably a good thing really because otherwise I may never've discovered the singularly awesome raw werewolf sex appeal of men like Rob Zombie.

(... who I still totally have a crush on.)

grin coopdevil
_________________________
"What happens in the shadow, in the grey regions, also interests us – all that is elusive and fugitive, all that can be said in those beautiful half tones, or in whispers, in deep shade." ~ The Brothers Quay

We're Just Regular People

Top
#474754 - 05/17/12 04:02 PM Re: Opinions of Straight Edge? [Re: Shade]
Janina Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1449
Loc: Center of my own Universe
Originally Posted By: Shade
Okey dokey. I never really paid attention to all that, was more interested in flirting with boys. Unfortunately, every single skinhead in the world does not look like Russell Crow in Romper Stomper.

Actually, that's probably a good thing really because otherwise I may never've discovered the singularly awesome raw werewolf sex appeal of men like Rob Zombie.

(... who I still totally have a crush on.)

grin coopdevil



I donīt know why this made me laugh, but your post delighted my evening.

In the good way, I mean!

laugh

_________________________
Devilīs Advocate

Top
#474756 - 05/17/12 04:39 PM Re: Opinions of Straight Edge? [Re: TrojZyr]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
About 10 years ago, a friend of mine from the US told me about a sub-movement within the Straight Edge/Hard Core scenes in New England. Apparently a few bands had all joined ISKCON or adopted their beliefs, because they squared well with SXE beliefs. When they started singing about their new faith, they effectively introduced a genre they called "Krishnacore".


Edited by reprobate (05/17/12 04:39 PM)
_________________________
reprobate

Top
#474757 - 05/17/12 04:40 PM Re: Opinions of Straight Edge? [Re: Tony Nine]
Psychotherapeut Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 05/13/06
Posts: 456
The irony is that the guys from Minor Threat would still have a beer occasionally. The point started out as against excess and evolved into complete abstinence. I have friends and relatives who practice the same ideals but don't wear it on their arms and I have more respect for them than someone having to identify with a group to feel validated about their personal choice.

There are also splinter subcultures that are militant, which is just absurd. A neo-Nazi with red laces is a neo-Nazi with red laces regardless of their sXe battlecry...

Ultimately, I say whatever works for you. Just don't come up to me at a show and slap the beer out of my hand and we'll be cool... laugh
_________________________
Mein Leben, Meine Chance

Top
#474772 - 05/17/12 11:31 PM Re: Opinions of Straight Edge? [Re: Janina]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11535
Loc: New England, USA
I've wondered how sXe as a music genre was ever able to survive, because in my experience the entire music club scene is pretty much based on the business of selling alcohol. Clubs that feature local bands are ultimately only interested in selling drinks as a bar; the band is the bait to bring in those people who otherwise wouldn't be going to that bar on a Tuesday night. When garage bands play their first club shows, that ticket money is going first and foremost to pay the bartender, not the bands. Comedy clubs aren't that much different, often requiring a 2-drink minimum purchase.

So if sXe bands have managed to find ways of working outside of this system, I at least given them kudos for that. I'd be curious what successful business models (if any) they've had. I've heard of "juice bars", which additionally let you bring in the under-21 crowd, but I'm wondering just how successful they are.
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

(Wenn du Google's Übersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)

Top
#474779 - 05/18/12 01:32 AM Re: Opinions of Straight Edge? [Re: Tony Nine]
Citizen Jonesy Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/22/02
Posts: 994
Loc: Palm Springs, California, USA
I personally see them as another group of Good Guy Badge wearers.

I just usually ignore them. Out of sight, out of mind.
_________________________
Hail Satan!
Jonesy
I° Member, Church Of Satan
Webmaster
The 8FoldPath Network-Just updated

Top
#474781 - 05/18/12 02:49 AM Re: Opinions of Straight Edge? [Re: Bill_M]
Janina Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1449
Loc: Center of my own Universe
Originally Posted By: Bill_M
I've wondered how sXe as a music genre was ever able to survive, because in my experience the entire music club scene is pretty much based on the business of selling alcohol.



I was once in local Metal Club listening few New school Hardcore bands and started to think this same. the whole club was full of bald, tattooed guys and pierced girls who didnīt drink anything in the whole evening. Bar was completely empty and bartenders just chatted with each others cause had nothing else to do.

I guess that is the reason why these SxE gigs are so rare and when bands come to play tickets cost more than with other (non-SxE) punk and hardcore bands..
_________________________
Devilīs Advocate

Top
#474785 - 05/18/12 04:15 AM Re: Opinions of Straight Edge? [Re: Tony Nine]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10562
Loc: England
Early on in the Punk scene many teenagers couldn't go and see the bands they liked because they weren't old enough to drink and all the bands, of course, were playing nightclubs.

That's how the black X's on the hands started. The band Minor Threat came up with the idea of marking younger fans with a black X. Teenage fans agreed to being marked with an X - and if they were caught drinking they got thrown out and missed the gig. Other bands and club owners also adopted the idea.

That's all it was. So it wasn't originally a movement pertaining to abstinence, it was simply a pragmatic solution to letting young kids see bands play.

Afterwards the practice grew into something of a more contrived ideology.
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





Top
#474789 - 05/18/12 06:37 AM Re: Opinions of Straight Edge? [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Reverend Drake, the people want to know, would you ever give up your whiskey and go straight edge? grin
_________________________









Top
#474797 - 05/18/12 09:22 AM Re: Opinions of Straight Edge? [Re: RoyceDavis]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12982
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: RollsRoyce
I prefer people who choose to be identified by what they do, instead of what they don't do.


Exactly right. Nail, hit, head.

Originally Posted By: Reprobate
When they started singing about their new faith, they effectively introduced a genre they called "Krishnacore".


This conjures up so very many delightful images for me.

The mosh pit must be a thing to behold.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

Top
#474800 - 05/18/12 09:59 AM JUDGE- "What Was Said and Where It Went" (unfinished documentary) [Re: Tony Nine]
Prometheus Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/25/05
Posts: 1116
Loc: Germany
Here is what I found quite a nice documentary about the sXe - band Judge. Aside from portraying the genesis of the band, it sheds light on some of the internals of the sXe scene at that time & especially the violence at shows. What I always found interesting is the fact that Judge were one of the bands that brought a more militant feel into the scene, but were then shocked about the actual violence that took place at their shows. This was actually the main reason for them to split up.

_________________________

HAIL SATAN!

Prometheus











Top
#474815 - 05/18/12 03:19 PM Re: JUDGE- "What Was Said and Where It Went" (unfinished documentary) [Re: Tony Nine]
Farmer Frown Offline


Registered: 12/18/11
Posts: 12
Loc: Nebraska
It seems the hypocrisy that condemns the Christians is also found in the sXe movement. My own experience has been nothing, but negative. Every time I have encountered them they're preachy, self denying punks, but can't hold a job and would rather punch a opportunity in the jaw than show up on time and work for their pay.
_________________________
A new priest asks a parishioner how she likes his sermons.

"It's great. We knew nothing about the sin before you came here." - Old Kazakh Joke

Top
#474825 - 05/18/12 08:00 PM Re: JUDGE- "What Was Said and Where It Went" (unfinished documentary) [Re: Farmer Frown]
Tony Nine Offline


Registered: 05/04/12
Posts: 7
I've worked with a person who identifies as Straight Edge and he was a very realistic, respectful, practical, down-to-earth guy. On the other end of the spectrum I've attended local shows where the people there immediately preach to the face and talk shit as soon as an outsider hits the door.

Krishnacore, veganism, vegetarianism, fascism, letting minks out of a cage, knocking over people's beers, wearing a hat, writing in cursive etc, are at the discretion of individuals. Yes, they identify with what they don't do rather than do, and extend out from there. TSB had my attention in the 90's because it WASN'T spiritual, and was "opposite", and then I read on and learned further. "Without the wonderful element of doubt...", as Dr. LaVey said.

The music ranges from POSI (positive) to the more militant on the metal side. I have never claimed Edge, but I think the music is very inspirational depending on context and mood. Optimistic? Listen to some Good Clean Fun or Gorilla Biscuits. Pissed off at junkies or drunks? Listen to xBishopx or xAFBx.

Prometheus, the Judge documentary link was great. I've not yet seen that until now.

Ironically enough the man who coined the term "Straight Edge" never meant for it to be a movement, gang, or reason to act holier-than-thou. If I may link a short snippet of an interview with Ian Mackaye ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRcxW_pFN9o


Edited by Tony Nine (05/18/12 08:40 PM)

Top
#474901 - 05/20/12 12:41 AM Re: JUDGE- "What Was Said and Where It Went" (unfinished documentary) [Re: Tony Nine]
Tony Nine Offline


Registered: 05/04/12
Posts: 7
As a side note, and I say this with all good humor intended, it is clear there are three types of individuals. Those who most definitely know what they are talking about, those that googled and or wiki'd the subject, and those who have zero overall knowledge of the topic except what they've been subjected to or told. Stratification works. As LaVey said, "...it's not even asked for". Kinda paraphrasing.


Edited by Tony Nine (05/20/12 12:46 AM)

Top
#475460 - 06/26/12 03:37 PM Re: Opinions of Straight Edge? [Re: Tony Nine]
Marz Blaqk Offline


Registered: 06/26/12
Posts: 12
I'm a huge fan of the hardcore movement, and I do think it's great that a group of young punks were able to rebel within the rebellion, but I do agree some people take it too far.
The beliefs and practices of others should be respected, but that respect is lost when the practice causes them to exalt themselves over any other system.
I know a lot of punks, and usually the straight-edge kids are assholes. They still fight and break shit like the rest of them. I lose all respect for someone the second I see them looking down their nose.
There are plenty of Satanists that abhor the use of drugs as they are under the impression that it makes one weak, but I personally think that's purely situational.


Edited by Marz Blaqk (06/26/12 04:08 PM)

Top
#475463 - 06/26/12 03:56 PM Re: Opinions of Straight Edge? [Re: Marz Blaqk]
Janina Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1449
Loc: Center of my own Universe
Originally Posted By: Marz Blaqk

There are plenty of Satanists that abhor the use of drugs as they are under the impression that it makes one weak, but I personally think that's purely situational.



I think you should read these two threads about druguse and Satanism before advertising the drugs and use of them here:

LaVey/CoS and Drug Use
The Church of Satan's Policy on Drug Abuse
_________________________
Devilīs Advocate

Top
#475464 - 06/26/12 03:57 PM Re: Opinions of Straight Edge? [Re: Marz Blaqk]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
Originally Posted By: Marz Blaqk

I personally am a big fan of drugs, but only the ones that can inspire or enhance my creativity.


So, precisely none of them, then. You must mean the ones which distort your perception of reality to the point where you believe they are doing something to "inspire your creativity", which is precisely all of them.


Edited by TheDegenerate (06/26/12 04:03 PM)

Top
#475466 - 06/26/12 04:05 PM Re: Opinions of Straight Edge? [Re: TheDegenerate]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8781
Perhaps she means coffee and tea, both legal sources of a clinically proven nootropic IQ enhancer, caffeine?

Probably not though, huh?

A ban is likely imminent, but I have extra rope today.


Edited by Daark (06/26/12 04:06 PM)
_________________________
I think of the future as branching probability streams.
- Elon Musk

Top
#475468 - 06/26/12 04:24 PM Re: Opinions of Straight Edge? [Re: Tony Nine]
Marz Blaqk Offline


Registered: 06/26/12
Posts: 12
Removed by Moderator.


Edited by Daark (06/27/12 09:52 AM)

Top
#475469 - 06/26/12 04:24 PM Re: Opinions of Straight Edge? [Re: Marz Blaqk]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8781
Goodbye.
_________________________
I think of the future as branching probability streams.
- Elon Musk

Top
#475470 - 06/26/12 04:35 PM Re: Opinions of Straight Edge? [Re: Quaark]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
Originally Posted By: Daark
Perhaps she means coffee and tea, both legal sources of a clinically proven nootropic IQ enhancer, caffeine?

Probably not though, huh?

A ban is likely imminent, but I have extra rope today.


...Guess not.

grin

Lousy gubberments!

Top
#475471 - 06/26/12 04:46 PM Re: Opinions of Straight Edge? [Re: Quaark]
Psychotherapeut Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 05/13/06
Posts: 456
I see the knot has tied itself... laugh
_________________________
Mein Leben, Meine Chance

Top
#475472 - 06/26/12 04:48 PM Re: Opinions of Straight Edge? [Re: Psychotherapeut]
Janina Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1449
Loc: Center of my own Universe
Originally Posted By: Psychotherapeut
I see the knot has tied itself... laugh



Too bad that the stupidity is not painful.. wink
_________________________
Devilīs Advocate

Top
#475497 - 06/27/12 05:32 AM Re: Opinions of Straight Edge? [Re: Janina]
Jealous_Feral Offline


Registered: 06/27/12
Posts: 4
Loc: Oklahoma, US
Originally Posted By: Janina
Too bad that the stupidity is not painful.. wink


I'd have to say that on many occasions, stupidity gets the best of people where it hurts the most...

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >


Forum Stats
12020 Members
73 Forums
43830 Topics
405230 Posts

Max Online: 197 @ 10/04/11 06:49 AM
Advertisements