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#480147 - 09/06/12 10:37 PM Re: Lesser magic and Seduction [Re: Emily]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Well put. Or, as they put it less romantically where I'm from: "You can't polish a turd."
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reprobate

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#480150 - 09/06/12 11:05 PM Re: Lesser magic and Seduction [Re: reprobate]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:
In the Satanic Bible, the Doktor is very clear that Lesser Magic is about causing people to do what you want because they honestly desire to be close to you, to your magical persona. Lesser Magic means making others feel good about offering up what they have to you, in a lasting way -- either they get a sexy thrill from it, or they are endeared to you, or they are in awe. What this means is that Lesser Magic is to some degree self-aware, in no small part because a magical persona has to be constructed, but that persona still has to come fundamentally from a place of honesty, respect for others, and a personal sense of adventure.


Warlock Reprobate, I could not possibly agree more.

Another quote from Anton LaVey comes to mind:

"The Devil is a gentleman."

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#480151 - 09/06/12 11:28 PM Re: Lesser magic and Seduction [Re: Lust]
J. Favenris Offline



Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Portland, Oregon
What in particular makes no sense to you?

I'm very familiar with Magister Svengali's work and what he has referred to as 'Deep Satanism.'

The post I wrote to which you replied said:

1.) There is work beyond what Dr. LaVey wrote that can fall in line with Lesser and Greater Magic (the works listed in the bibliography of The Satanic Witch; written work by other authors such as Robert Greene's The Art of Seduction comes to mind).

2.) Satanic Lesser Magic is about making others feel good about what they give you.

3.) I dislike when people simply take something within Satanism at face value - "Satanism requires study, not worship."

I look forward to your response.
_________________________
"Training is nothing! The will is everything! The will to act." - Ra's al Ghul

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#480155 - 09/06/12 11:37 PM Re: Lesser magic and Seduction [Re: Emily]
J. Favenris Offline



Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Portland, Oregon
I couldn't be in more agreement with you, Emily. The people you have described seem like insecure individuals looking for a crutch, instead of developing anything of value for themselves. Your signature quote captures this quite well.

"The underhanded manipulator is akin to the woman who stuffs her bra, or the man who wears a codpiece. When it comes down to business, the goods are revealed, and any inadequacies are subsequently exposed."
_________________________
"Training is nothing! The will is everything! The will to act." - Ra's al Ghul

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#480158 - 09/07/12 12:05 AM Re: Lesser magic and Seduction [Re: reprobate]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Originally Posted By: reprobate
I entirely agree with Tier, and would like to add two things.

It is very easy to fall into the trap of thinking that Lesser Magic is about causing other people to do what you want. It's partly true, but misleading, for two reasons.

First, Lesser Magic is also about knowing what YOU want, and understanding why, and reflecting on whether the people you want to connect with are the ones who can really provide what YOU need. That's the importance of the Synthesizer Clock: it's a device to help you place yourself and identify your complement. So, your goals matter: If you go out into the world looking for validation or keeping score of your conquests or some other such bullshit, you aren't really taking the lessons of Lesser Magic to heart and are doomed to reap a bitter harvest.

Second, not just any old way of causing someone to do what you want really counts as magical. Lying, manipulating, "negging", and so on, aren't magic. (Still less is pressuring, cajoling, or intimidation.) In the Satanic Bible, the Doktor is very clear that Lesser Magic is about causing people to do what you want because they honestly desire to be close to you, to your magical persona. Lesser Magic means making others feel good about offering up what they have to you, in a lasting way -- either they get a sexy thrill from it, or they are endeared to you, or they are in awe. What this means is that Lesser Magic is to some degree self-aware, in no small part because a magical persona has to be constructed, but that persona still has to come fundamentally from a place of honesty, respect for others, and a personal sense of adventure. All magic, including Lesser Magic, is fundamentally a personal working and a self-transformation.

Hope this helps!


I think that's a great analysis, Reprobate.

There are three things I like best about what you've said:

1) The idea of knowing what you want, and understanding why you want it. This is what separates the slave from the master, to my mind.

2) That Lesser Magic, at its best, is about drawing people to you, and making them delight in your presence.

3) That Lesser Magic, at its best, involves drawing out and channeling that which makes you authentically awesome ;), as opposed to trying to manufacture false charisma from scratch. Except, perhaps, in the case of bonafide psychopaths, sooner or later, most people are able to sniff out inauthenticity, or realize that the dots aren't quite lining up as they should.






_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#480192 - 09/07/12 09:18 PM Re: Lesser magic and Seduction [Re: J. Favenris]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
Originally Posted By: Favenris
Thank you very much for the constructive criticism, Tier Instinct


Your welcome.

Originally Posted By: Favenris
Though I feel that much gold can be extracted beyond LaVey's work that falls in line with Lesser and Greater Magic, I do believe that I may be steering off course in terms of Satanic witchery being causing people to do your Will because they want to and it makes them feel good, rather than gimmicks and plain manipulation.


So how can you get there if you look beyond the source?

Of course you are off course and you make it plain with terms such as
Originally Posted By: Favenris
Satanic witchery
.

The information is available and the great thing is is that it will not cost you a bundle. Do yourself a favor - read it.
_________________________
�Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.�
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

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#480475 - 09/13/12 02:17 PM Re: Lesser magic and Seduction [Re: Lust]
J. Favenris Offline



Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Portland, Oregon
"How can you get there beyond the source?"

Well, there's people known as de-facto Satanists. LaVey and the Church of Satan state that Satanists are a type of human, best represented and codified within The Satanic Bible. The reason why the Doctor left a bibliography at the end of The Satanic Witch, and the reason why the Church has two recommended reading lists is because there is work beyond the "source" that is relevant to Satanism.

LaVey codified and organized Satanism, but he never intended it to be an ending point - it is a beginning.

"Satanism requires study - not worship!"

Now do yourself a favor - recognize that I wouldn't be on this message forum if I had not read enough material to properly understand Satanism. I know I'm new to this forum, and I mean no disrespect to you personally, but I am not some young pseudo-Satanist.

It appears there was a misunderstanding on your part.
_________________________
"Training is nothing! The will is everything! The will to act." - Ra's al Ghul

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#480488 - 09/13/12 06:12 PM Re: Lesser magic and Seduction [Re: J. Favenris]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
Sir, there is so much wrong with what you posted that I will not even dig into it. (I will not be baited). However, I feel that it is my fault for posting upstairs so much.

You have missed so much of what I posted that I now find it a waste of my time going back and forth. Bad for you - not me.

Also, before I leave you. It is Anton Szandor LaVey. When you mention the founder at least have the respect to not call him by his last name. Oh, and I know some de-factos that know more than you.

We are now done!

HS!
WTI
coopdevil
_________________________
�Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.�
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

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#480493 - 09/13/12 06:44 PM Re: Lesser magic and Seduction [Re: Lust]
J. Favenris Offline



Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Portland, Oregon
If you don't have anything of value to contribute to a thread, a statement such as yours is best reserved for private messaging. People in public didn't need to read that. I will reply to one thing and one thing only in your childish banter - no disrespect was intended towards Dr. LaVey by referring to him by last name.

Early in the conversation within this thread, I entered with the understanding that Lesser Magic is about manipulating people to do what you want. I would like to thank both Reprobate and TrojZyr for correcting and clarifying that misunderstanding by delving a bit deeper into the subject by suggesting that it is instead "making others feel good about offering up what they have to you, in a lasting way."

This is what I enjoy about Letters to the Devil - a place for growth, sharing of Satanic concepts, and the occasional pleasantries.

I would like to add that is seems to go very hand in hand with Satanic Rules #5, 6, and 7. Satanic Magic seems to be very focused on being a magnet of sorts in which people naturally are drawn to you for a variety of reasons. It brings to mind someone employing a "sinister" appearance through the use of aesthetics - if someone looks malevolent, he may be approached by masochists.

The wonderful dynamic between predator and prey!
_________________________
"Training is nothing! The will is everything! The will to act." - Ra's al Ghul

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#480494 - 09/13/12 06:59 PM Re: Lesser magic and Seduction [Re: J. Favenris]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
Originally Posted By: Doktor Anton Szandor LaVey
"Unfortunately, too many would-be witches who consider themselves to be good actresses wind up playing all the wrong parts!"
_________________________
�Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.�
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

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#480501 - 09/13/12 07:55 PM Re: Lesser magic and Seduction [Re: J. Favenris]
Shade Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 6135
Loc: A Trailer Park
Just an aside,

Originally Posted By: Favenris
This is what I enjoy about Letters to the Devil - a place for growth, sharing of Satanic concepts, and the occasional pleasantries.


This is what I like about LttD also and I just wanted to make a point of saying that I've always really enjoyed your contributions. smile
_________________________
"What happens in the shadow, in the grey regions, also interests us all that is elusive and fugitive, all that can be said in those beautiful half tones, or in whispers, in deep shade." ~ The Brothers Quay

We're Just Regular People

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#480509 - 09/14/12 12:52 AM Re: Lesser magic and Seduction [Re: Shade]
J. Favenris Offline



Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Likewise, dear! I'm still very young and have much to learn, so I don't expect to know everything. I do, however, expect to be treated with the respect in return of the one I give out. smile

I thought something that could be a great idea is that if people give examples of Lesser Magic and the results that they often receive. It would be particularly helpful if members of the Hierarchy provided some of their own examples! coopdevil
_________________________
"Training is nothing! The will is everything! The will to act." - Ra's al Ghul

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